Ever wish your fav athlete worked with a specific coach?


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Ever wish your fav athlete worked with a specific coach?

Postby fasttrack85 » Fri Nov 30, 2012 4:48 pm

For example you ever wonder if Allyson would be sub 48 working with Clyde Hart? Or sub 10.7 working with John Smith?

Would Bolt and Blake have the starts Shelly and Asafa have if they were working with Steven Francis?

Would Sanya be a sub 22 monsta working with Bobby Kersee? Would Lolo Jones have approached the wr working with Bobby as well?

Things like that.
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Re: Ever wish your fav athlete worked with a specific coach?

Postby rainy.here » Sun Dec 02, 2012 2:11 pm

fasttrack85 wrote:Would Bolt and Blake have the starts Shelly and Asafa have if they were working with Steven Francis?
Things like that.


Maybe, but then they might now have the finishes they do now.
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Re: Ever wish your fav athlete worked with a specific coach?

Postby Dave » Sun Dec 02, 2012 5:34 pm

Sure, I'd love to see Eaton spend a month or so with Petrov. I believe he would go from 5.30 to 5.60 pretty quickly. Hopefully, it wouldn't do any damage to his other events.

Heaven knows his current coach has been very effective.
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Re: Ever wish your fav athlete worked with a specific coach?

Postby Marlow » Sun Dec 02, 2012 7:16 pm

Dave wrote:Sure, I'd love to see Eaton spend a month or so with Petrov. I believe he would go from 5.30 to 5.60 pretty quickly. Hopefully, it wouldn't do any damage to his other events.

You have to rob Peter to pay Paul in the Dec. I'm pretty sure Coach Petrov would not be very happy to have Ashton the few hours a week he would get him.
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Re: Ever wish your fav athlete worked with a specific coach?

Postby bushop » Sun Dec 02, 2012 7:32 pm

Ryan Crouser, Keshorn Walcott, Jacko Gill and Ashraf Amgad Elseify move to Kamloops to train with Dr. Bondarchuk.
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Re: Ever wish your fav athlete worked with a specific coach?

Postby gh » Sun Dec 02, 2012 9:51 pm

Marlow wrote:
Dave wrote:Sure, I'd love to see Eaton spend a month or so with Petrov. I believe he would go from 5.30 to 5.60 pretty quickly. Hopefully, it wouldn't do any damage to his other events.

You have to rob Peter to pay Paul in the Dec. I'm pretty sure Coach Petrov would not be very happy to have Ashton the few hours a week he would get him.


Zackly..... unless a decathlete has a marked weakness (and the PV most certainly is not one for Eaton), I think that sticking with a successful multi-oriented mentor is by far the best course of action.
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Re: Ever wish your fav athlete worked with a specific coach?

Postby Dave » Mon Dec 03, 2012 7:24 pm

gh wrote:
Marlow wrote:
Dave wrote:Sure, I'd love to see Eaton spend a month or so with Petrov. I believe he would go from 5.30 to 5.60 pretty quickly. Hopefully, it wouldn't do any damage to his other events.

You have to rob Peter to pay Paul in the Dec. I'm pretty sure Coach Petrov would not be very happy to have Ashton the few hours a week he would get him.


Zackly..... unless a decathlete has a marked weakness (and the PV most certainly is not one for Eaton), I think that sticking with a successful multi-oriented mentor is by far the best course of action.


PV isn't a weakness for Eaton, but I do believe it is not a fully exploited strength. Think of all the PVers who are alleged to have had 10.2 speed and 8.20 LJ capacity. I suspect exactly one smiling face comes to mind.
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Re: Ever wish your fav athlete worked with a specific coach?

Postby Marlow » Tue Dec 04, 2012 6:14 am

Dave wrote:PV isn't a weakness for Eaton, but I do believe it is not a fully exploited strength. Think of all the PVers who are alleged to have had 10.2 speed and 8.20 LJ capacity. I suspect exactly one smiling face comes to mind.

AE is faster and springier than SB, but Bubka had the advantage of a full-time devotion to technical perfection. Even if AE devoted himself solely to the PV, there's no reason to believe he'd become a 20' vaulter - there's just too many other variables. That said, he COULD be a 19' vaulter!
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Re: Ever wish your fav athlete worked with a specific coach?

Postby Cooter Brown » Tue Dec 04, 2012 6:19 am

Marlow wrote:AE is faster and springier than SB, but Bubka had the advantage of a full-time devotion to technical perfection. Even if AE devoted himself solely to the PV, there's no reason to believe he'd become a 20' vaulter - there's just too many other variables. That said, he COULD be a 19' vaulter!


Unfortunately for American vaulting, our two best potential vaulters are our best two decathletes.

Eaton and Hardee have all the tools to be great vaulters.

I personally would've also put former high school phenom and also-ran Donovan Kilmartin in the group. He should've focused on the vault instead of the dec. Even as a dec, he jumped 17'4"ish in high school.
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Re: Ever wish your fav athlete worked with a specific coach?

Postby Dave » Tue Dec 04, 2012 6:39 am

Marlow wrote:
Dave wrote:PV isn't a weakness for Eaton, but I do believe it is not a fully exploited strength. Think of all the PVers who are alleged to have had 10.2 speed and 8.20 LJ capacity. I suspect exactly one smiling face comes to mind.

AE is faster and springier than SB, but Bubka had the advantage of a full-time devotion to technical perfection. Even if AE devoted himself solely to the PV, there's no reason to believe he'd become a 20' vaulter - there's just too many other variables. That said, he COULD be a 19' vaulter!


Going from an already very good 17'4" to 18'4" means a lot of extra decathlon points. 19' would help him put the record out of reach for a lot of years.
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Re: Ever wish your fav athlete worked with a specific coach?

Postby gh » Tue Dec 04, 2012 9:55 am

I'm always amazed at how much improvement one has to do in some events to score significantly more points. The diff. between 17-4 and 18-4 isn't quite 100.
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Re: Ever wish your fav athlete worked with a specific coach?

Postby Cooter Brown » Tue Dec 04, 2012 11:43 am

gh wrote:I'm always amazed at how much improvement one has to do in some events to score significantly more points. The diff. between 17-4 and 18-4 isn't quite 100.


Has it ever been considered to increase the points gained per centimeter or 0.01 second as the performance increases?
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Re: Ever wish your fav athlete worked with a specific coach?

Postby TN1965 » Tue Dec 04, 2012 1:43 pm

Shalane Flanagan with Bob Larsen.

Jerry Schumacher might be a great coach, but he has unproven record on coaching marathon runners. Larsen, on the other hand, has coached the greatest US marathoner of the last three decades. I want to see if Shalane is capable of producing the same level of success on the road as she did on track and cross country.
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Re: Ever wish your fav athlete worked with a specific coach?

Postby toyracer » Tue Dec 04, 2012 2:54 pm

Yes. After Beijing I was wishing that Asafa could be coached by Glen Mills.
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Re: Ever wish your fav athlete worked with a specific coach?

Postby 26mi235 » Tue Dec 04, 2012 6:22 pm

Cooter Brown wrote:
gh wrote:I'm always amazed at how much improvement one has to do in some events to score significantly more points. The diff. between 17-4 and 18-4 isn't quite 100.


Has it ever been considered to increase the points gained per centimeter or 0.01 second as the performance increases?


This essentially requires an entirely different functional form. It could be done but would be a change in methodology. As I recall the points in event i, PTi, are

PTi = max[0, Bi + Ci*Xi],

where Bi and Ci are event-specific parameters, with C being negative when X is a time and positive when it is a distance. (I might mis-remember the formula). If this is correct, then the gradient is Ci. That is

dPTi/dXi = Ci

This is why the absolute points do not matter -- every body (except NH/NM and very poor performances) gets Bi points for the event (except those where Bi is negative -- cannot remember if that ever really comes in to play).

Can some of those that know the events correct me if I am wrong.

To make this non-linear you would want to set it up so that some point amount is kept equal for an equal performance and that likely it would also be desirable for the gradient at that point to be about the same as the current gradient at that point. Note that if the timed events have Ci/Ti instead, that the points are non-linear in Ti. [I am rushed and after a couple of glasses of wine with dinner, so fuzzier even than my normal self)]

[The one thing is that I vaguely remember that there is a very slight non-linearity in the points with slightly hagher gradients for better marks, but this formula would say not .]
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Re: Ever wish your fav athlete worked with a specific coach?

Postby Atanvarno » Sat Dec 08, 2012 1:34 pm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decathlon#Points_system

As you can see in the examples, for the 100m improving 0,451 sec gets you from 800 to 900, but just 0,432 gets you another 100 points from 900 to 1000.
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Re: Ever wish your fav athlete worked with a specific coach?

Postby fasttrack85 » Sun Dec 09, 2012 10:07 pm

toyracer wrote:Yes. After Beijing I was wishing that Asafa could be coached by Glen Mills.



Hmmm interesting. Asafa's coach Stephen Franics has had good success with more people. Glenn Mills has had greater success(fast times and records) with fewer people. What do you think Glenn could do for Asafa? Keep him from injury? Help his Speed Endurance? Do you think he would have his bullet start still?
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Re: Ever wish your fav athlete worked with a specific coach?

Postby fasttrack85 » Sun Dec 09, 2012 10:32 pm

I am really curious about alot of American sprinters working with either of the two Jamaican camps to see what the results would be like.

On another note i am curious what others think about these thoughts.

Would Allyson be a better 400 runner than Sanya if they both trained together with Clyde Hart or is there something just special about Sanya ability at the quarter mile(the open event)?

Sticking with the Sanya theme... what do you think her shorter races would look like working with the likes of Bobby Kersee, John Smith, or any of the Jam coaches?


Someone talked about Asafa working with Glenn Mills. What about Shelly working with Glenn Mills? Would we be seeing freakish 200 times by now?


Do you think there are alot of Canadians and Brits who have elite potential but suffering from lack of elite coaches?
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Re: Ever wish your fav athlete worked with a specific coach?

Postby Marlow » Mon Dec 10, 2012 5:03 am

fasttrack85 wrote:what do you think her shorter races would look like working with the likes of Bobby Kersee, John Smith, or any of the Jam coaches?

I would love to see Felix, Richards and Jeter working together under a Kersee/Smith type, exploring everything from 100-400. I think all three would improve (tho I think AF's 200 PR is at max and so is Jeter's 100). SRR can go faster in all three.
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Re: Ever wish your fav athlete worked with a specific coach?

Postby Speedster » Mon Dec 10, 2012 5:53 am

Historically speaking, I would have loved to have seen Cathy Freeman run the 100/200m under John Smith as suggested in her book. It says that Smith felt she had real potential over the shorter distances and she was considering training with him full time prior to her retirement in 2003.
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Re: Ever wish your fav athlete worked with a specific coach?

Postby mal » Mon Dec 10, 2012 6:45 am

The answer for me is no.

I prefer to see a race than a time trial. I am sure there are many competent coaches out there, including well resourced and reputed coaches who can attract the greatest talent.

However I enjoyed the Chariots of Fire example where a connection betweeen coach and athlete was made and cometitve excellence was the result.

Of course athletes sometimes need a change, and of course coaches don't all deign to improve their knowledge at a level that allows an athlete to achieve maximally. But I think there is more to success than setting sessions.

Some people are just better leaders.
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Re: Ever wish your fav athlete worked with a specific coach?

Postby Marlow » Mon Dec 10, 2012 7:09 am

mal wrote:I think there is more to success than setting sessions. Some people are just better leaders.

No doubt. I prefer a competent technical coach who is a superb motivator to a superb technical coach, who doesn't inspire his athletes to excel. On the other hand, the tippy-top-tier elite athletes are usually self-motivated, so they 'need' the coach with the most technical tools and the best 'sessions' to get to the podium.
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Re: Ever wish your fav athlete worked with a specific coach?

Postby mal » Mon Dec 10, 2012 7:29 am

Marlow wrote:
mal wrote:I think there is more to success than setting sessions. Some people are just better leaders.

No doubt. I prefer a competent technical coach who is a superb motivator to a superb technical coach, who doesn't inspire his athletes to excel. On the other hand, the tippy-top-tier elite athletes are usually self-motivated, so they 'need' the coach with the most technical tools and the best 'sessions' to get to the podium.


Exactly.
Especially when technical expertise is often impacted by an athletes' personal make-up.

ThoughI don't think there is as much is as wide a range in physical capability among the top 2%, than there is in mental. Physical capability is a lot more common than people give credit. And as my coach was keen to say, there are world champions walking the streets who are unaware of their potential.

I don't totally agree, because unless you are deeply committed - in more than a training way - you'll never make it to the dance. Carl Lewis wasn't the most 'talented' of long jumpers, yet he seemed to win more often than not.

And of course luck. Some people just don't have any.
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Re: Ever wish your fav athlete worked with a specific coach?

Postby preston » Mon Dec 10, 2012 7:39 am

fasttrack85 wrote:Would Allyson be a better 400 runner than Sanya if they both trained together with Clyde Hart...)?

    Doubt it. It can be argued that Sanya would be better off without Hart. In fact, there is nothing in R-R's development trajectory that said that she wasn't going to be as good as she is; and she's the only TOP high school sprinter I can think of who actually embraced the 400m. Sanya has talent to burn, looks like she was born to run and has a PB of 48.60. Contrast her with Ana Guevara, who has a PB of 48.89 and who does it look like got the most out of his pupil? Hart or Guevara's coach? If anything, Felix and/or SRR should look up Guevara's coach, imo.

fasttrack85 wrote:...what do you think her shorter races would look like working with the likes of Bobby Kersee, John Smith, or any of the Jam coaches?

    Though Kersee has a 2x Olympic 100m champion to his resume (in addition to Flojo, who claimed Kersee wasn't training her at the time), I would NEVER think that a short sprinter should go there. Why? Not enough technical remediation. Smith on the otherhand...They could improve; but that's only if they were able to be pounded through Smith's round holes. He seems to have less latitude in what constitutes effective sprinting technique than do the Mills of Francis who seem to coach athletes of more differing technical abilities (SAFP doesn't look like Powell who doesn't look like Carter who doesn't look like Frater. But, Jeter looks like Edwards who looked like Green)


fasttrack85 wrote:What about Shelly working with Glenn Mills? Would we be seeing freakish 200 times by now?

    In a word, no. Jeter's coach has Ato and '92 Olympic champion and she's relatively speaking...identical to SAFP. Basically, coach alone won't get you there. Plus, Shericka Jackson is a decent 200m runner, even though she runs the 400, and she trains with SAFP. But, I do think SAFP is sub-21.80 ability; and if SAFP actually believed she could be great at 200m -after doubling- then she possibly could beat Felix.

fasttrack85 wrote:Do you think there are alot of Canadians and Brits who have elite potential but suffering from lack of elite coaches?

    Nope! Blame coaching all you want - I know I do - but Cannucks and Brits have an elite ambition problem, not an elite coaching problem. The presence of Adam Gemili proves two things: 1. that there is coaching that can bring talented athletes to the fore; and 2. that the UK is NOT looking hard enough for athletes. Canada is just like UK - with possibly better coaching. Only they have so many more excuses. Excuses they don't use when explaining the presence and resurgence of their w100h. But, no one cares in Canada because they were always patting themselves on the back for putting the international meets that the USA wouldn't (WY, WJ, PanAM, WC, WIC)
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Re: Ever wish your fav athlete worked with a specific coach?

Postby preston » Mon Dec 10, 2012 7:49 am

mal wrote:
Marlow wrote:
mal wrote:I think there is more to success than setting sessions. Some people are just better leaders.

No doubt. I prefer a competent technical coach who is a superb motivator to a superb technical coach, who doesn't inspire his athletes to excel. On the other hand, the tippy-top-tier elite athletes are usually self-motivated, so they 'need' the coach with the most technical tools and the best 'sessions' to get to the podium.


Exactly.
Especially when technical expertise is often impacted by an athletes' personal make-up.

ThoughI don't think there is as much is as wide a range in physical capability among the top 2%, than there is in mental. Physical capability is a lot more common than people give credit. And as my coach was keen to say, there are world champions walking the streets who are unaware of their potential.

I don't totally agree, because unless you are deeply committed - in more than a training way - you'll never make it to the dance. Carl Lewis wasn't the most 'talented' of long jumpers, yet he seemed to win more often than not.

And of course luck. Some people just don't have any.

Mal, though Lewis wasn't the fastest on the runway, he was the fastest man ever to do the long jump which gave him much more CONTROL on the runway so that he could replicate himself more often for wins. No one else is even close. He had the perfect angle of take-off for his jumps. LEWIS IS THE BEST LONG JUMPER OF ALL-TIME. (and that's coming from someone who does NOT like Lewis. At all. One bit.)

I agree that physical capability is a lot more common than people give credit.
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Re: Ever wish your fav athlete worked with a specific coach?

Postby Marlow » Mon Dec 10, 2012 8:27 am

mal wrote:Carl Lewis wasn't the most 'talented' of long jumpers

Wow - if he wasn't, I wanna meet the guy more talented (Powell? Conley? Pedroso?) There's no current jumper even close.
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Re: Ever wish your fav athlete worked with a specific coach?

Postby mal » Mon Dec 10, 2012 9:01 am

Not currently. Pedrosa 'went further' but it was Cuba. So...

I think Myricks was more physically talented as a jumper.

Lewis was a fantastic athlete, (of course) but as a long jumper he looked great in pictures, less so on Video. He hit the board with more speed than anyone else, but only occasionally came off at the 'optimal' height.

Yep he 'fouled' the longest. But Powell jumped further. And he was 'less talented'.
And in accordance with my last theme. His (Lewis) mental abilities outstripped his physical. Unlike Myricks, who never achieved his potential.
Yep I know its not common to claim any 'deficiency' in King Carl. He was / is the schnizzle. A talent not often seen.
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Re: Ever wish your fav athlete worked with a specific coach?

Postby preston » Mon Dec 10, 2012 9:14 am

Myricks was more physically talented as a jumper? Based upon what? Both Powell and Conley won Dunk competitions and if it were somehow possible to negate the TJ I would put Conley over Myricks (fully acknowledging that Myricks was a beast!).

When it comes to Lewis, you have to remember that he was ONLY trying to win. I think (there I go thinking again...) that he could have been faster than 9.86 and 19.75 too, but I don't think he was mentally committed to anything other than winning. THAT'S REMARKABLE. Myricks on the other hand competed more than Lolo Jones. He lived it. He wanted it. The only other athlete seemingly as disconnected at perfecting his craft than Lewis and clearly better than everyone else, imo, is Bolt.
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Re: Ever wish your fav athlete worked with a specific coach?

Postby mal » Mon Dec 10, 2012 10:22 am

From my overseas view. Myricks jumped below his potential. Yet he still jumped 8.74. Lewis is the greatest track and field athlete ever in my view. Myricks was not mentally strong enough - compwared to Lewis. That is my point.

If you want to make talent on result, then Powell is the greatest jumper. He was technically better than Lewis, who ran down the track and lifted his feet off the ground. :mrgreen: And landed a long way from the board.

Maybe if he was not 'only trying to win' he'd have been a better long jumper. He had the speed and ability to lift it over 30'. And never did, despite the claims.

And by the way, just to sprinkle more, I thought Michael Johnson left more onthe table in the 400. And I thought Edwin Moses was more concerned with managing his streak. He left more on the table too.

I totally agree that Lewis - and Bolt - are disconnect from the craft.
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Re: Ever wish your fav athlete worked with a specific coach?

Postby Dave » Mon Dec 10, 2012 12:49 pm

fasttrack85 wrote:For example you ever wonder if Allyson would be sub 48 working with Clyde Hart? Or sub 10.7 working with John Smith?

Would Bolt and Blake have the starts Shelly and Asafa have if they were working with Steven Francis?

Would Sanya be a sub 22 monsta working with Bobby Kersee? Would Lolo Jones have approached the wr working with Bobby as well?

Things like that.


Would different coaching arrangements have allowed Tommy Skipper or Donovan Kilmartin to go a lot farther?
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Re: Ever wish your fav athlete worked with a specific coach?

Postby toyracer » Wed Dec 12, 2012 11:58 am

fasttrack85 wrote:
toyracer wrote:Yes. After Beijing I was wishing that Asafa could be coached by Glen Mills.



Hmmm interesting. Asafa's coach Stephen Franics has had good success with more people. Glenn Mills has had greater success(fast times and records) with fewer people. What do you think Glenn could do for Asafa? Keep him from injury? Help his Speed Endurance? Do you think he would have his bullet start still?


I just saw this, sorry to take long to respond.

I believe that there are flaws in Asafa's running style since the '09 ankle injury; flaws that Francis has not corrected but Mills would (probably does) see and correct. Perhaps Asafa would get injured less, but that isn't the reason I was wishing that he'd change. I do think that the Mills approach would help Asafa's mental preparation, and I doubt that Asafa would lose his bullet start.
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