You know what?? All of you who think I'm obsessed with "underage stars"....
GO TO HELL!!
I'm outta here!!
Funny, though, because I have even MORE "obsession" with......
71 year old Bob Dylan 66 year old Gerry Lindgren DEAD poet Allen Ginsberg 88 year old President Jimmy Carter 48 year old Governor Sarah Palin 82 year old Clint Eastwood and a few others past voting age!!
Just saying!!
"The [aaronk] doth protest too much, methinks."
"It puts the lotion on the skin..." KIDDING! Please don't ban me.
tandfman wrote: I, too, made a favorable comment about Ms. Cain early in the thread. I was a lot less verbose, but I thought I made it clear that I shared others' excitement about her future. I trust that Dutra5 doesn't think that I and other posters who have praised Mary Cain are creepy. So it must be the length and frequency of his posts on this subject that lead Dutra5 to conclude that there's something wrong with aaronk. Somehow prolixity implies lasciviousness. I cannot agree.
I have an interest in the young lady's abilities as well. She appears, at this point, to be quite the talent. Is it a point of interest that Salazar will be coaching her? Absolutely.
Again...a point of interest. Let's hope Ms. Cain continues to improve and, perhaps most importantly enjoys her high school experience.
As to worrying about her every move or even next move or how a race which has been wiped out by a natural disaster would be dealt with by someone other than a member of her family ... or perhaps other high schoolers with little life perspective.....with anything other than an offhanded question....yeah....that's bizarre to me.
tandfman wrote: I, too, made a favorable comment about Ms. Cain early in the thread. I was a lot less verbose, but I thought I made it clear that I shared others' excitement about her future. I trust that Dutra5 doesn't think that I and other posters who have praised Mary Cain are creepy. So it must be the length and frequency of his posts on this subject that lead Dutra5 to conclude that there's something wrong with aaronk. Somehow prolixity implies lasciviousness. I cannot agree.
I have an interest in the young lady's abilities as well. She appears, at this point, to be quite the talent. Is it a point of interest that Salazar will be coaching her? Absolutely.
Again...a point of interest. Let's hope Ms. Cain continues to improve and, perhaps most importantly enjoys her high school experience.
As to worrying about her every move or even next move or how a race which has been wiped out by a natural disaster would be dealt with by someone other than a member of her family ... or perhaps other high schoolers with little life perspective.....with anything other than an offhanded question....yeah....that's bizarre to me.
Forgetting Mary for the moment, it would be interesting to hear Salazar's perspective on the cancellation of the NYC marathon....him being a 2-time winner and one-time record holder on the course.
As for cancellation of the 5K, it affected many more than Ms Cain....Simpson, Uhl, and several other American elites were entered in that race too.
aaronk wrote:The NYC Marathon thread says the 5K is cancelled! Sooooo.....does Al have a replacement race for her??
Anyone know... 1.) ... if there was another race the top runner migrated too? 2.) ... if appearance money was paid out in-spite of the cancellation?
It does seem like M Cain needs a quality race(s) to run on occasion. Where/ when is the next strong 5k? How important is it for young distance runners to compete on cross country courses? If important, what are the strong open XC races?
tandfman wrote:Out of morbid fascination, I just scrolled down this thread from top to bottom to try to figure out what this pissing match was all about.
My conclusions: aaronk is unusually enthusiastic about Mary Cain, and his posts evidence that enthusiasm. Is the enthusiasm excessive? Unlike Dutra5 and perhaps others, I hesitate to criticize a fellow poster for being excited about a particular athlete. The fact that the athlete is a 16-year old girl really shouldn't matter unless there's some sexual innuendo in his posts, which I didn't find at all.
I, too, made a favorable comment about Ms. Cain early in the thread. I was a lot less verbose, but I thought I made it clear that I shared others' excitement about her future. I trust that Dutra5 doesn't think that I and other posters who have praised Mary Cain are creepy. So it must be the length and frequency of his posts on this subject that lead Dutra5 to conclude that there's something wrong with aaronk. Somehow prolixity implies lasciviousness. I cannot agree.
That having been said, I think pvp was right in suggesting that a thicker skin would help aaronk.
This is pretty much the way I viewed aaronk's posts too. I've seen nothing in what he wrote to imply that he's anything more than an extremely enthusiastic fan who's eagerly looking forward to Mary Cain's future athletic accomplishments.
Blues wrote: This is pretty much the way I viewed aaronk's posts too. I've seen nothing in what he wrote to imply that he's anything more than an extremely enthusiastic fan who's eagerly looking forward to Mary Cain's future athletic accomplishments.
I stand by my initial (post #3) assessment:
Marlow wrote:aaron, I truly admire your enthusiasm, but don't post immediately after three cups of espresso!
aaronk wrote:The NYC Marathon thread says the 5K is cancelled! Sooooo.....does Al have a replacement race for her??
Anyone know... 1.) ... if there was another race the top runner migrated too? 2.) ... if appearance money was paid out in-spite of the cancellation?
It does seem like M Cain needs a quality race(s) to run on occasion. Where/ when is the next strong 5k? How important is it for young distance runners to compete on cross country courses? If important, what are the strong open XC races?
First, a HUGE Thank You to everyone who has AGAIN made me feel accepted in this motley clan of tafnuts!! Okay, so maybe you'd prefer I drop a few thousand of THESE buggers (!!!!!) from my repertoire!!
Anyway, onward. About paydays for runners.
Mary's agreement (or contract?) with Salazar is that she'll run "pro" races, but not get paid if she wins or places high enough to get some $$$. This is to protect her future NCAA career.
But don't you wish it could be otherwise...and not just for Mary, but for ALL collegiate t&f athletes.
Running for professional athletes is a job. It's work, their career (at least until they retire from athletics).
I mean, even collegiate athletes work to help pay their tuition or books, or just to buy clothes or CD's. So what's the difference if said athlete gets paid by McDonald's or a local running shoe shop....or wins prize money in road races??
As long as there's NO interference with their running for the TEAM....why should it matter?? If it DID interfere with the quality of them running for their team, then THEY would be responsible to make sure it doesn't happen again.
But I just don't see the difference!! And changing the rules on professional running and NCAA competition would do so much to make things better for all.
aaronk wrote:Mary's agreement (or contract?) with Salazar is that she'll run "pro" races, but not get paid if she wins or places high enough to get some $$$.
Certainly, but what about the professional runners?
aaronk wrote:Mary's agreement (or contract?) with Salazar is that she'll run "pro" races, but not get paid if she wins or places high enough to get some $$$.
Certainly, but what about the professional runners?
Are you talking specifically about yesterday's cancelled 5K entrants??
I assume...but don't know....their situation will be the same as for the pro elite marathoners who were entered in today's race.
Meaning, they'll try to find another marathon (or 5K for Simpson, Uhl et al) to enter soon. And hope that the NYRR's come up with some sort of payout for them....at least travel and hotel and per diem, if not actual "prize" money (maybe divided evenly among all the elites, since there wasn't a race!).
Another subject, maybe, but I worry about the race itself, meaning the NYC marathon!! Will people's grudges and bad feelings linger into next year...making it more difficult for Wittenburg (and the NYRR) to even put on the race??
The black clouds linger!! (And I ain't speaking in metaphors!)
By the way, there were high school track and field athletes that were in the top five at the Olympic Trials (Vaughan-DT, Gabby Williams-HJ, and not sure about Haley Crouser) and they were not named Cain or Baxter, and one of them was (also) only a sohpomore.
26mi235 wrote:By the way, there were high school track and field athletes that were in the top five at the Olympic Trials (Vaughan-DT, Gabby Williams-HJ, and not sure about Haley Crouser) and they were not named Cain or Baxter, and one of them was (also) only a sohpomore.
I know, I know! Between all the Cain stuff, I've inserted my opinion on the VERY high quality of the ENTIRE HS girls field this year. Some of the boys were great too, but the NUMBER of girls who, in any other year, would be a fairly easy #1....or at worst #2......but finished as far down as 8th or 9th....is astonishing!!
2012 was most definitely a year when the girls RULED!!
I can understand 1st and 2nd. Vaughan broke the mark 4 times, plus her high finish at the Trials. Won't speak to Cain's credentials now, but she woulda been EASILY #1 in any other year!! You have Ajee in THIRD??? 2nd best ever time, wins the WJ's?? Yet only 3rd! Haley breaks the JT record, yet is just 4th? Kendell breaks the Hept mark, and gets just 5th!! (And she's returning!) Gabby Williams getting just 9th, despite one of the best HJ's in recent years? About the only one I disagree with 100% is putting Baird ahead of both Hatton and Nerud. Hatton ran the 2nd best-ever 5K and 10K's! Nerud broke the SC record TWICE!! Sorry, but I would've put Baird in 9th, behind both of them!
Anyway, the quality of those first 9 (Maybe Sanders in 10th also, but not as familiar with what she did as the others!) was SENSATIONAL!!
Add Dior Hall (100H), Shamier Little (300-400H), and Torie Owers (SP) to those girls who deserved to be in the Top 10 in ANY other year...yet got crowded out by this year's DEEP field!!
As one of Mary Cain's most enthusiastic boosters, I should be THRILLED that she has jumped from (I believe) 11th place in the Top 50 Girls Individual CC Rankings....all the way up to SECOND!!!
But even I must ask.....WHY??
I would like nothing more than for her to be ranked Number ONE.......or # 2......but for the life of me, I can't understand why she jumped this week to 2nd place from last week's 11th!!!
Did she race somewhere?? I haven't heard of any!
So what did she DO to deserve this upward movement in her ranking??
It'll be interesting to see how she does at Nike NY Regionals on Saturday. Anybody know who her top competitors in that meet will be?
edit- Seems soph Bella Burda of Arlington is entered and has been running well... She won the NY Federation meet last weekend, and was second at the NY State Championships the weekend before.. She's currently ranked #24 on the National girl's list. It'll be interesting to see how she does relative to Mary's performance. As of now the weather forecast for the NY meet calls for colder temps, with a high around 44, low around 26, and a chance of rain, so the conditions may not be ideal.
aaronk wrote:... she has jumped from (I believe) 11th place in the Top 50 Girls Individual CC Rankings....all the way up to SECOND!!! So what did she DO to deserve this upward movement in her ranking??
aaronk wrote:... she has jumped from (I believe) 11th place in the Top 50 Girls Individual CC Rankings....all the way up to SECOND!!! So what did she DO to deserve this upward movement in her ranking??
She was previously not ranked. (nr)
Please note that "nr" means she was not ranked at the BEGINNING of the SEASON!! Look at last week's rankings, and you'll see she was ranked 11th. She's been right around that ranking (10th, 11th, 12th) most of this season!!
As for the reason her ranking may have jumped up 9 places this week, it seems she WON the female division of the Fred Lebow 5K CC race held on November 18th! Second woman was almost two minutes behind Mary! Mary was only beaten by 5 men, all of them older than Mary!!
The ONLY woman in the High School ranks who COULD give Mary a "race" right now is Sarah Baxter!! And I'd give most anything to see them go head-to-head in an indoor track 5K....or 3K/2 mile!!! If they really RACED, it would be GOODBYE to whatever that distance's record was!!
aaronk wrote:... she has jumped from (I believe) 11th place in the top-50 girls Individual CC rankings....all the way up to second. So, what did she do to deserve this upward movement in her ranking?
She was previously not ranked. (nr)
Please note that "nr" means she was not ranked at the beginning of the season.
I believe that they said that she would not be ranked (highly?) until she ran. However, I may be confusing her case with Cheserek's. In his case, he did not race in the first part of the season in order to focus on taking the SATs to get a high enough score to be getting in to colleges and competing as a frosh.
I think it's unreasonable to assume that just because Mary Cain is the top 16 yr old in the world at 1500M that she will likewise excel at longer distances. She looks to me to have the build of a miler as opposed to Sarah Baxter who I think has the ideal build and efficient running stride of a marathoner. Milers don't necessarily make good 5K runners.
In any case I am looking forward to Olympic medals from Mary C. in the 1500M and an Olympic medal from Sarah Baxter in the Marathon...they can do it!
ExRun wrote:I think it's unreasonable to assume that just because Mary Cain is the top 16 yr old in the world at 1500M that she will likewise excel at longer distances. She looks to me to have the build of a miler...
ExRun wrote:I think it's unreasonable to assume that just because Mary Cain is the top 16 yr old in the world at 1500M that she will likewise excel at longer distances. . . . Milers don't necessarily make good 5K runners.
It IS eminently reasonable to assume that a 4:11 HS girl 1500 runner [4:30 miler!! ] can beat EVERY HS girl XC runner!
26mi235 wrote:Well, a 3:53 (to be) miler could not beat all the XC guys.
Point! But Webb back then was running 4x4s too. Cain, despite an awesome 2:03 800, has more distance chops than Webb did. That said, I can see Amy-Eloise Neale beating Cain in XC.
Fred Lebow Cross Country Championships 5 kilometers Date/Time: November 18, 2012 Location: Van Cortlandt Park, Bronx
Cain Mary Bronxville NY 17:26
So, thinking about this performance, in relation to other prep female performances @ 5km in VC Park.
First, let me note all the disclaimers: I get the ways in which xc times are, in principle, meaningless. I get the ways in which comparisons of xc times are difficult, at best. Some would say impossible. But, I also get that a lot of what we do on these boards all the time is make comparisons across time, place, conditions, etc. in all sorts of events. Also -- as much as I enjoy observing Cain's career so far, am not interested in adding to hype about her. Plenty of that out there already. Finally, worth noting that this race, in comparison, e.g., with Footlocker NE regional championships, was relatively low-key, and Cain had no (female) competition.
However, with all these disclaimers noted, it may still be worth thinking about other female prep times on this course, in relation to her 17:26. I figured Kinney/Footlocker NE regional is a good place to look for other fast times. Do not have access to all of them, but here are a few notables, in the range of Cain's 17:26:
Probably some others in the 17:30s or perhaps faster, but these are the ones I've noted so far. In this historical context, her 17:26 seems noteworthy. All of this simply confirms what anyone following Cain already knows -- she's talented. But still worth noting.
And as that list indicates, there are no runners that were dominant at the next level (college) or competitive at the levels above that (National open and International). Let it be noted that her 4:11 is competitive with athletes that were dominant at the next level and competitive at the next.
26mi235 wrote:And as that list indicates, there are no runners that were dominant at the next level (college) or competitive at the levels above that (National open and International).
I would argue that Cathy (Schiro) O'Brien was very successful at the 'next level', including her 1991 2:29 LA Marathon win.
aaronk wrote:... she has jumped from (I believe) 11th place in the top-50 girls Individual CC rankings....all the way up to second. So, what did she do to deserve this upward movement in her ranking?
She was previously not ranked. (nr)
Please note that "nr" means she was not ranked at the beginning of the season.
Good call... odd thing though... usually weekly rankings show the previous week's ranking.
Mary's national rank last week probably depends on which rankings we look at.. These are the rankings from the last 2 weeks that I looked at, where Mary was ranked way down in honorable mention last week but #2 this week:
26mi235 wrote:And as that list indicates, there are no runners that were dominant at the next level (college) or competitive at the levels above that (National open and International).
I would argue that Cathy (Schiro) O'Brien was very successful at the 'next level', including her 1991 2:29 LA Marathon win.
And making the 1988 Olympic Team. O'B was a fairly big name back then.
aaronk wrote:Those other names you listed...with the possible exception of Cayla Hatton...do NOT fit the parameters of my "obsessions".
I am willing to entertain an obsession with Hatton! Her 10K last spring knocked my socks off (back-to-back 16:40s in one race!). I see she was 3rd for SU at the NCAAs in 20:06, 28th place overall. That's a 'decent' (sic) start as a frosh, but I'm anxious to see what happens at 10K in the Stanford Distance Orgy in the spring, where everyone shows up and runs the best 10Ks of the season. I'm a little under-whelmed by former phenoms Cuffe and Kroeger's overall progress at The Farm, but this could be the one!
] can beat EVERY HS girl XC runner!