was it a touchdown or not? [split]


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was it a touchdown or not? [split]

Postby 26mi235 » Tue Nov 13, 2012 6:38 pm

BruceFlorman wrote:
26mi235 wrote:Not sure if you are kidding. He drops the ball after taking several steps in the end zone (near the back). It is a TD as soon as it crosses the line, no feet or any part of his body need be in the end zone.
Check out the video replay here:
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap1000000094174/article/nfl-trindon-holliday-td-for-denver-broncos-a-mistake
Especially note the last 5 seconds or so. It's pretty clear.


Not remotely/remove this word too soon. The ball is in front of him. Look where is feet are -- almost in the end zone. The ball is already touching the white line. He does not have to run into the end zone, a millimeter of the ball has to cross the plane delineated by the very beginning of the line. The ball does not come free of his hand until his left knee is about 16 inches passed his right foot, and his arm is ahead of the knee and the ball is ahead of his hand. At the very least, without a video that clearly shows a view without parallax (i.e., right along the goal line there is no way that they over turn the call. Note that he flicks the ball forward at the end, an action that still has him in control of the ball (if it were a question of the quarterback and the line of scrimmage, it would be where it leaves the hand completely). At that point the ball is at the end line -- ergo TD.

There is another video of him where he is at the back of the end zone when he tosses it.
Last edited by 26mi235 on Tue Nov 13, 2012 7:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Can Trindon Holliday make it in the NFL?

Postby Bruce Kritzler » Tue Nov 13, 2012 7:09 pm

NFL admitted today that the Holliday punt return should have been ruled at touchback,not a touchdown, because of dropping ball before crossing goal line.
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Re: Can Trindon Holliday make it in the NFL?

Postby 26mi235 » Tue Nov 13, 2012 7:15 pm

There may be a view that show that, but the views we see do not have the hand on the ball and the ball/s position relative to the goal line. Further, it would have to be irrefutable evidence. Is it a surprises that the ref was not ahead of him to see the position of the ball?

I need to clarify: The first video that I saw was a different touchdown where he released the ball after being in the end zone of about 0.5 seconds, which put him well back into the end zone. This one was much closer, but not enough to be over-ruled given the segment of video that was linked.
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Re: Can Trindon Holliday make it in the NFL?

Postby lonewolf » Tue Nov 13, 2012 9:05 pm

I don't have a dog in this fight and don't know what replay the NFL had access to. I don't know why a prudent ball carrier would flip the ball so carelessly but it looks like a touchdown to me.
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Re: Can Trindon Holliday make it in the NFL?

Postby BruceFlorman » Wed Nov 14, 2012 3:37 am

I've spent waaaaaay too much time on this already, so I'm not going to further debate the point after this. I don't have any axes to grind with Trindon Holliday or the Denver Broncos, nor am I especially a fan of the Carolina Panthers (or the NFL league office for that matter). Furthermore, I'm aware that referencing this, although unlisted, and containing clear reference to the copyrighted source, may not fully comply with "fair use" and this board's policies. But until gh decides to delete the post, you can watch five frames captured from the video on the nfl.com site, which I think make things pretty clear, here --> http://youtu.be/r0vC8zcttXY

Given that the NFL has access to high definition video, and the ability to review it at any speed, I'm reasonably confident that their admission of error indicates that the ball was out of his grasp before it "touched the plane".
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Re: Can Trindon Holliday make it in the NFL?

Postby Marlow » Wed Nov 14, 2012 4:25 am

BruceFlorman wrote:the ball was out of his grasp before it "touched the plane".

Even in that frame-by-frame replay, I don't see enough evidence to overturn the ruling on the field.
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Re: Can Trindon Holliday make it in the NFL?

Postby lonewolf » Wed Nov 14, 2012 6:57 pm

Marlow wrote:
BruceFlorman wrote:the ball was out of his grasp before it "touched the plane".

Even in that frame-by-frame replay, I don't see enough evidence to overturn the ruling on the field.

Yep, this is one instance when the "ruling on the field" should prevail.
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Re: Can Trindon Holliday make it in the NFL?

Postby 26mi235 » Wed Nov 14, 2012 10:30 pm

Marlow wrote:
BruceFlorman wrote:the ball was out of his grasp before it "touched the plane".

Even in that frame-by-frame replay, I don't see enough evidence to overturn the ruling on the field.


The frame rate is not fast enough. In one frame he is almost to the end zone and the ball is touching is hand, in the next frame the ball is passed the end line and it is just out of his hand. Since they cannot tell which came first these frames do not do it. Further, if they only have these there then they do not have video along the end line and thus cannot make a definitive ruling. Their 'announcement' might have a feel-good for the defenders but when they would not change the results of the last play of the GB game where clear(er) mistakes were made, there is no way that this has any implications at all.

I take it to mean that they want to teach the players to hold on to the ball and not hotdog it.
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Re: Can Trindon Holliday make it in the NFL?

Postby Blues » Thu Nov 15, 2012 12:25 pm

Although I agree that from what we've been shown there may not be rock solid conclusive evidence, I still think Trindon let go before the ball crossed the plane.. When he flips it, his forearm is almost vertical and the ball is really close to his upper body, and I don't think he's close enough to the goal line so that the ball would have broken the plane before he began to release it... Also, the photo that's often used as evidence obscures the far right side of the ball so one might feel his hand might still be on it, but from watching the videos, and the gif below, he's already released it at that point.. It seems like the ball is very close to the same plane as his right leg when he no longer has complete control, which to me looks to be about 15 inches from the goal line..

http://cdn.fansided.com/wp-content/blog ... gif?5c12fd
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Re: Can Trindon Holliday make it in the NFL?

Postby Marlow » Thu Nov 15, 2012 2:16 pm

Blues wrote:http://cdn.fansided.com/wp-content/blogs.dir/229/files/2012/11/holliday-no-td-11-11-12.gif?5c12fd

That's a better angle, but you still can't be 100% positive it's out before the tip of the ball crosses the plane. But . . . and here's an important consideration . . . at what point do his opponents really think they're being cheated out of something. I mean, c'mon, really?! :roll:
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Re: Can Trindon Holliday make it in the NFL?

Postby odelltrclan » Thu Nov 15, 2012 6:57 pm

Marlow wrote:. . . at what point do his opponents really think they're being cheated out of something. I mean, c'mon, really?! :roll:


Tell that to Brian Bellichek. Remember the incident where they saw on replay a player walking off the field that just missed (half a foot still on the field) on a 4th down play that was unsuccessful (late in the game), got the penalty called, got a first down, and won the game. To some, winning at all costs is the bottom line. If someone makes a bone headed move, too bad for them. That is the sportsmanship of the NFL today.
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Re: Can Trindon Holliday make it in the NFL?

Postby Pego » Fri Nov 16, 2012 5:38 am

odelltrclan wrote:
Marlow wrote:. . . at what point do his opponents really think they're being cheated out of something. I mean, c'mon, really?! :roll:


Tell that to Brian Bellichek. Remember the incident where they saw on replay a player walking off the field that just missed (half a foot still on the field) on a 4th down play that was unsuccessful (late in the game), got the penalty called, got a first down, and won the game. To some, winning at all costs is the bottom line. If someone makes a bone headed move, too bad for them. That is the sportsmanship of the NFL today.


What about the "unsportsmanlike conduct" of "excessive celebration?" Some of those calls blow your mind. So what if they make a spectacle of themselves for a few seconds?
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Re: Can Trindon Holliday make it in the NFL?

Postby Dutra5 » Fri Nov 16, 2012 8:43 pm

Blues wrote:Although I agree that from what we've been shown there may not be rock solid conclusive evidence, I still think Trindon let go before the ball crossed the plane.. When he flips it, his forearm is almost vertical and the ball is really close to his upper body, and I don't think he's close enough to the goal line so that the ball would have broken the plane before he began to release it... Also, the photo that's often used as evidence obscures the far right side of the ball so one might feel his hand might still be on it, but from watching the videos, and the gif below, he's already released it at that point.. It seems like the ball is very close to the same plane as his right leg when he no longer has complete control, which to me looks to be about 15 inches from the goal line..

http://cdn.fansided.com/wp-content/blog ... gif?5c12fd


I agree with this assessment.
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