Sites of past USATF/TAC/AAU XC Championships?


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Sites of past USATF/TAC/AAU XC Championships?

Postby Mighty Favog » Sat Oct 06, 2012 11:51 am

I've been looking to find some central listing of where the annual USA cross country championships were held (albeit not very hard). USATF.org is of no use for anything more than a decade old. Does anyone know of such a compilation?
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Re: Sites of past USATF/TAC/AAU XC Championships?

Postby gh » Sat Oct 06, 2012 10:49 pm

we have a scrapbook somewhre in the office (I think) that would allow me in fairly short order (if it's inded there) to give you all the sites from early '50s onward. But I know of no online source.

If I don't respond in the next couple of weeks, send me a private e-mail.
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Re: Sites of past USATF/TAC/AAU XC Championships?

Postby gm » Sun Oct 07, 2012 6:44 am

It will probably have to be compiled. A search through my past USA Cross Country books yielded only champions lists.
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Re: Sites of past USATF/TAC/AAU XC Championships?

Postby Mighty Favog » Sun Oct 07, 2012 10:05 am

I'm in the process of scanning my TFNs from '70 to present, so between gh and I we can get together the last 60 years or so. Before that could get challenging. There's an old sports almanac at my alma mater that may prove fruitful; for example, among other things it lists IC4A champs in every event, both indoor & outdoor, from the inception of the meet up to its publication sometime in the 70s. Finding the almanac may be the most difficult part.
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Re: Sites of past USATF/TAC/AAU XC Championships?

Postby dj » Sun Oct 07, 2012 12:56 pm

"There's an old sports almanac at my alma mater that may prove fruitful."

I'm presuming you mean one of several editions of The Encyclopedia of Sports or The All-Sports Record Book, both of which were edited by Frank Menke.

Neither lists venues for the AAU/TAC/USATF cross country champs, nor do old editions of the AAU Annual, both those produced by the AAU and those by Spalding.
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Re: Sites of past USATF/TAC/AAU XC Championships?

Postby MJR » Sun Oct 07, 2012 5:29 pm

Go to the NY Times archives. You should be able to get the information there.
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Re: Sites of past USATF/TAC/AAU XC Championships?

Postby gh » Sun Oct 21, 2012 8:35 am

48-Detroit
49-Detroit
50-Boston
51-Philly
52-Bufalo
53-Buffalo
54-Philly
55-Buffalo
56-Philly
57-Chicago
58-Chicago
59-Louisville
60-Louisville
61-Louisville
62-Chicago
63-Bronx
64-Chicago
65-Bronx
66-Woodland Hills
67-Chicago
68-Bronx
69-Bloomfield Hills
70-Chicago
71-San Diego
72-Chicago
73-Gainesville
74-Belmont
75-Annapolis
76-Philly
77-Houston
78-Seattle
79-Raleigh
80-Pocatello
81-Burbank
82-Meadowlands
83-University Park (or State College, depending on where Penn State's golf course is, I guess)
84-Boston
85-Raleigh
86-San Francisco
87-Bronx
88-Raleigh
89-San Francisco
90-Bronx

I'm assuming that by this point (if not way earlier), your collection includes the issues with the data, so I'll stop here.

I can also tell you that the '47 race was also Bronx. I assume these dates appear in the Spalding Guides every year, but digging through those, I'm afraid, would require an expenditure of time that I just don't have at my disposal.
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Re: Sites of past USATF/TAC/AAU XC Championships?

Postby dj » Sun Oct 21, 2012 9:46 am

83-University Park (or State College, depending on where Penn State's golf course is, I guess)

University Park, Pa.
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Re: Sites of past USATF/TAC/AAU XC Championships?

Postby paw » Sun Oct 21, 2012 11:03 am

a few more from Spalding:

1948 – Detroit , Nov 27, 1948
1941 – Yonkers, N.Y., Nov 9, 1941
1938 – Branch Brook Park, Newark, N.J. Nov 27, 1938
1937 – Branch Brook Park, Newark, N.J., Nov. 28, 1937
1932 – Cincinnati, Ohio, Dec 3, 1932
1931 – Ypsilanti, Mich, Nov 28, 1931
1919 – Van Cortlandt Park course, New York City, May 17, 1919
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Re: Sites of past USATF/TAC/AAU XC Championships?

Postby tandfman » Sun Oct 21, 2012 12:51 pm

paw wrote:1919 – Van Cortlandt Park course, New York City, May 17, 1919

That's the same course as the one referred to in gh's list as Bronx.
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Re: Sites of past USATF/TAC/AAU XC Championships?

Postby gh » Sun Oct 21, 2012 1:28 pm

yes, common parlance is to refer to the Manhattan portion of NYC as NYC, while the other boroughs are named by that name.
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Re: Sites of past USATF/TAC/AAU XC Championships?

Postby tandfman » Sun Oct 21, 2012 1:59 pm

gh wrote:yes, common parlance is to refer to the Manhattan portion of NYC as NYC, while the other boroughs are named by that name.

Actually, place locations in the Borough of Queens are generally referred to by the neighborhood, rather than "Queens". (E.g., Forest Hills, Jamaica, Flushing Meadows, etc.)
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Re: Sites of past USATF/TAC/AAU XC Championships?

Postby EastBayprepoftheweek67 » Sun Oct 21, 2012 2:33 pm

Helping to build a compilation of the sites, more from the individual, yearly Spalding's Official Athletic Almanacs:

1910 – "Celtic Park, L. I.," 26 Nov 10.

1913 – "Van Cortlandt Park, New York City," 6 Dec 1913.

1914 – "Van Cortlandt Park, New York City," 12 Dec 1914.

1915 – The Index in the 1916 Spalding's Athletic Almanac for the "National A. A. U. Championships, 1915– … Cross-country," directs one to page 103. Unfortunately, on that page the Almanac lists only the "Junior Cross-country" race held at "Van Cortlandt Park, New York City," held on 11 Dec 1915, and I can find no other listing in the 1916 Almanac for the 1915 Senior Cross-country Championship race. If the practice of holding the Junior Champs one week before at the same location as the Senior race, as revealed by my review of my few Spalding's Almanacs from the prior years, held true in 1915 then one could assume that the 1915 Senior Cross-Country race in 1915 would have been held at Van Cortlandt Park on December 18, 1915.

[Adding to the comments on "common parlance," in the early 20th Century, the Spalding's Athletic Almanacs refer to the locations of the events as I put them in quotes, above, giving no due to the NYC borough where the race was held.]
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Re: Sites of past USATF/TAC/AAU XC Championships?

Postby dj » Sun Oct 21, 2012 4:00 pm

Celtic Park was in Laurel Hill (Queens). CP was the club grounds of the Irish-American Athletic Club, and included one of the best track stadiums in the country.

Van Cortlandt Park is in the Bronx.

Travers Island is in Pelham Manor (Westchester County, NY) and is the summer grounds of the New York AC including a very good track (although it was only one-fifth of a mile through at least the 1950s).

Some earlier years:

1885Nov03, near New York, NY
1886Nov02, New York, NY
1889May04, New York, NY
1891Apr25, Morris Park, NY
1892Apr30, New York, NY
1905Nov30, Pelham Manor (Travers Island)
1906Dec15, Pelham Manor (Travers Island)
1908Nov14, Laurel Hill (Celtic Park)
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Re: Sites of past USATF/TAC/AAU XC Championships?

Postby bambam » Sun Oct 21, 2012 5:25 pm

A few more from Spalding Almanacs:

1910 Celtic Park, LI, NY Nov 26
1915 Van Cortlandt Park Dec 11
1924 Van Cortlandt Park Nov 30
1925 Van Cortlandt Park Nov 21
1926 Van Cortlandt Park Nov 21
1927 Van Cortlandt Park Nov 26
1929 Van Cortlandt Park Dec 8
1930 Lincoln Park, Jersey City, NJ Nov 30
1935 New York City Nov 23
1939 Newark, NJ Nov 19
1936 Branch Brook Park, Newark, NJ Nov 29

You should have almost a complete list now going back to the 1890s
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Re: Sites of past USATF/TAC/AAU XC Championships?

Postby bambam » Sun Oct 21, 2012 5:34 pm

So here's the list from the 1880s to 1950 that various posters have provided:

1885 near New York, NY Nov 3
1886 New York, NY Nov 2
1887
1888
1889 New York, NY May 4
1890
1891 Morris Park, NY Apr 25
1892 New York, NY Apr 30
1893
1894
1895
1896
1897
1898
1899
1900
1901
1902
1903
1904
1905 Pelham Manor (Travers Island) Nov 30
1906 Pelham Manor (Travers Island) Dec 15
1907
1908 Laurel Hill (Celtic Park) Nov 14
1909
1910 Celtic Park, LI, NY Nov 26
1911
1912
1913 Van Cortlandt Park, New York Dec 6
1914 Van Cortlandt Park, New York Dec 12
1915 Van Cortlandt Park, New York Dec 11
1916
1917
1918
1919 Van Cortlandt Park, New York May 17
1920
1921
1922
1923
1924 Van Cortlandt Park, New York Nov 30
1925 Van Cortlandt Park, New York Nov 21
1926 Van Cortlandt Park, New York Nov 21
1927 Van Cortlandt Park, New York Nov 26
1928
1929 Van Cortlandt Park, New York Dec 8
1930 Lincoln Park, Jersey City, NJ Nov 30
1931 Ypsilanti, Michigan Nov 28
1932 Cincinnati, Ohio Dec 3
1933
1934
1935 New York City Nov 23
1936 Branch Brook Park, Newark, NJ Nov 29
1937 Branch Brook Park, Newark, NJ Nov 28
1938 Branch Brook Park, Newark, NJ Nov 27
1939 Newark, NJ Nov 19
1940
1941 Yonkers, NY Nov 9
1942
1943
1944
1945
1946
1947
1948 Detroit, Michigan Nov 27
1949

Still missing quite a number. I went thru all the Spaldings I have, including some of the ones my dog chewed. They're apparently quite tasty.
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Re: Sites of past USATF/TAC/AAU XC Championships?

Postby gh » Sun Oct 21, 2012 9:11 pm

in other posts, I provided '47 and '49.
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Re: Sites of past USATF/TAC/AAU XC Championships?

Postby tandfman » Mon Oct 22, 2012 5:45 am

bambam wrote:So here's the list from the 1880s to 1950 that various posters have provided:

. . .1891 Morris Park, NY Apr 25


Morris Park is in the Bronx.
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Re: Sites of past USATF/TAC/AAU XC Championships?

Postby dj » Mon Oct 22, 2012 6:05 am

The men's race was not contested in 1893-96, 1899-1900, 1902, 1904.

Various sources list 1890 as the first AAU championship, but this should not be the case. A national championship race was conducted each year from 1883 through 1889, but not by the AAU, with the 1889 race being the first national CC championship conducted after the formation of the AAU.

However, USATF/TAC/AAU has long listed as track & field national champions those individuals who won events which predate the formation of the AAU. Consistency should be applied to the cross country champions of 1883-1889.
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Re: Sites of past USATF/TAC/AAU XC Championships?

Postby dj » Mon Oct 22, 2012 6:16 am

tandfman wrote:
bambam wrote:So here's the list from the 1880s to 1950 that various posters have provided:

. . .1891 Morris Park, NY Apr 25


Morris Park is in the Bronx.


And now we get into history, geography and political boundaries. Morris Park was a town in Westchester County until it was annexed into the Bronx in 1895.
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Re: Sites of past USATF/TAC/AAU XC Championships?

Postby tandfman » Mon Oct 22, 2012 6:46 am

dj wrote:
tandfman wrote:
bambam wrote:So here's the list from the 1880s to 1950 that various posters have provided:

. . .1891 Morris Park, NY Apr 25

Morris Park is in the Bronx.

And now we get into history, geography and political boundaries. Morris Park was a town in Westchester County until it was annexed into the Bronx in 1895.

I never knew that. For some reason, I think of all geographic boundries as being permanent--they are what they've always been--although I know they're not.
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Re: Sites of past USATF/TAC/AAU XC Championships?

Postby dukehjsteve » Mon Oct 22, 2012 12:18 pm

tandfman wrote:
dj wrote:
tandfman wrote:
bambam wrote:So here's the list from the 1880s to 1950 that various posters have provided:

. . .1891 Morris Park, NY Apr 25

Morris Park is in the Bronx.

And now we get into history, geography and political boundaries. Morris Park was a town in Westchester County until it was annexed into the Bronx in 1895.

I never knew that. For some reason, I think of all geographic boundries as being permanent--they are what they've always been--although I know they're not.



Related NY trivia pertaining to Long Island is that until the mid 1890's, Queens included all of what is now Nassau County. Queens then split in two, with the western part linking up with New York City and the eastern part becoming Nassau County, between the now-shrunken Queens to its west and Suffolk County to its east.

I'm originally from Suffolk County ( Huntington) and a Geography Nerd; my wife bought me an antique map of Long Island, and there was no Nassau County on it ! So I did a little checking and learned what is described above.
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Re: Sites of past USATF/TAC/AAU XC Championships?

Postby gh » Mon Nov 05, 2012 4:07 pm

oh mighty one..... if that this point you put together a composite of everything that this thread has contributed, I'll see what I can do about digging up missing years out of our library.
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Re: Sites of past USATF/TAC/AAU XC Championships?

Postby bambam » Mon Nov 05, 2012 4:31 pm

gh wrote:oh mighty one..... if that this point you put together a composite of everything that this thread has contributed, I'll see what I can do about digging up missing years out of our library.


Missing years of the 20th century:

1903, 1907, 1909, 1911-12, 1916-18, 1920-23, 1928, 1933-34, 1940, 1942-46
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Re: Sites of past USATF/TAC/AAU XC Championships?

Postby gm » Mon Nov 05, 2012 7:17 pm

1922 - Van Cortlandt Park

1928 - Van Cortlandt Park

1933 - Chicago, Nov. 23

1934 - Iowa City, IA, Nov. 29 (says in article this was first ever held west of the Mississippi)

1940 - Detroit (Meadowbrook CC), Nov. 28

1943 - Baltimore (Clifton Park), Nov. 25
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Re: Sites of past USATF/TAC/AAU XC Championships?

Postby dj » Tue Nov 06, 2012 4:13 am

bambam wrote:
gh wrote:oh mighty one..... if that this point you put together a composite of everything that this thread has contributed, I'll see what I can do about digging up missing years out of our library.


Missing years of the 20th century:

1903, 1907, 1909, 1911-12, 1916-18, 1920-23, 1928, 1933-34, 1940, 1942-46



1911 - Laurel Park, LI (Celtic Park) Nov 18
1912 - Bronx, NY (Van Cortlandt Park) Nov 30

1916 - Bronx, NY (VCP), Dec 9
1917 - Boston (Franklin Park) Nov 24
1918 - Bronx, NY (VCP), Nov 10

1920 - Boston (Franklin Park) Nov 21
1921 - Pittsburgh (Schenley Park) Nov 19

1923 - Philadelphia (Fairmount Park) Nov 24

1942 - Newark, NJ , Nov 29

1944 - Baltimore Nov 23

1946 - Bronx, NY (VCP) Nov 30
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Re: Sites of past USATF/TAC/AAU XC Championships?

Postby gh » Tue Nov 06, 2012 6:19 am

you guys keep this up and I'll not have to go digging at all... oh darn.
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Re: Sites of past USATF/TAC/AAU XC Championships?

Postby bambam » Tue Nov 06, 2012 10:05 am

Only 4 missing - 1903, 1907, 1909, 1945 - go for it, E Garry
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Re: Sites of past USATF/TAC/AAU XC Championships?

Postby dj » Tue Nov 06, 2012 10:27 am

bambam wrote:Only 4 missing - 1903, 1907, 1909, 1945 - go for it, E Garry


1903 - Pelham Manor, NY (Travers Island) Nov 3
1907 - Laurel Park, LI (Celtic Park), Nov 23
1909 - Laurel Park, LI (Celtic Park), Nov 20
1945 - Buffalo (Delaware Park), Nov 25
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Re: Sites of past USATF/TAC/AAU XC Championships?

Postby Mighty Favog » Tue Nov 06, 2012 11:59 am

There was a championship held in 1901 but, unless I'm missing something, I don't see that year listed. Other than that, this kicks ass. I'll compile basic data tonight and put together a .pdf to publish here and share.

I'm in the process of compiling results (top ten individuals, top five teams) from '71 to present and gh has offered up help from '48 to '70. Earlier than that will need more help from others. I'll put together the AIAW while I'm at it to supplement the NCAA stuff published last year.
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Re: Sites of past USATF/TAC/AAU XC Championships?

Postby gh » Tue Nov 06, 2012 3:54 pm

Spalding Guide for 1901 doesn't show any XC race, even though it has more obscure shit than you can possibly imagine, like sack racing, gathering stones, running backwards, 3-legged races, etc., etc. (egg & spoon also missing). So maybe dj's contention that there was no '01 race was correct.

Oh yes, and for today's trivia question: L. deB. Handley won the "Knickerbocker Medley Race" that year in 15:42.

Everybody knows what that was comprised of, right?
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Re: Sites of past USATF/TAC/AAU XC Championships?

Postby dj » Tue Nov 06, 2012 4:54 pm

dj wrote:83-University Park (or State College, depending on where Penn State's golf course is, I guess)

University Park, Pa.



Correct this. The golf course is actually in State College even though it is contiguous with the rest of the campus, which comprises University Park. Maybe the PSU golf course is actually public, but leased to the university?
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Re: Sites of past USATF/TAC/AAU XC Championships?

Postby bambam » Tue Nov 06, 2012 6:13 pm

gh wrote:Spalding Guide for 1901 doesn't show any XC race, even though it has more obscure shit than you can possibly imagine, like sack racing, gathering stones, running backwards, 3-legged races, etc., etc. (egg & spoon also missing). So maybe dj's contention that there was no '01 race was correct.

Oh yes, and for today's trivia question: L. deB. Handley won the "Knickerbocker Medley Race" that year in 15:42.

Everybody knows what that was comprised of, right?


Well, considering that Louis deBreda Handley competed in the 1904 Olympics in swimming, I would suspect that was part of it.
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Re: Sites of past USATF/TAC/AAU XC Championships?

Postby dj » Tue Nov 06, 2012 6:26 pm

gh wrote:Spalding Guide for 1901 doesn't show any XC race, even though it has more obscure shit than you can possibly imagine, like sack racing, gathering stones, running backwards, 3-legged races, etc., etc. (egg & spoon also missing). So maybe dj's contention that there was no '01 race was correct.

Oh yes, and for today's trivia question: L. deB. Handley won the "Knickerbocker Medley Race" that year in 15:42.

Everybody knows what that was comprised of, right?


I don't think I made any mention of the 1901 race. It was apparently held in Buffalo, as many major events were that year, as part of the International Exposition (where William McKinley was assassinated.)

I've not found any mention of the race in the NY Times so I've yet to determine a date. But Jerry Pierce, an Indian descendant of Deerfoot, won with a time of 43:27 1/5 over an 8-mile course. (Winner and time listed in Spalding guides.)
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Re: Sites of past USATF/TAC/AAU XC Championships?

Postby dj » Tue Nov 06, 2012 6:34 pm

bambam wrote:
gh wrote:Spalding Guide for 1901 doesn't show any XC race, even though it has more obscure shit than you can possibly imagine, like sack racing, gathering stones, running backwards, 3-legged races, etc., etc. (egg & spoon also missing). So maybe dj's contention that there was no '01 race was correct.

Oh yes, and for today's trivia question: L. deB. Handley won the "Knickerbocker Medley Race" that year in 15:42.

Everybody knows what that was comprised of, right?


Well, considering that Louis deBreda Handley competed in the 1904 Olympics in swimming, I would suspect that was part of it.


That was one of six quarter-mile legs, run in immediate succession. But what were the other five legs? I never remember without thinking it through. This was part of the annual meet of the Knickerbocker AC held at their club grounds in Bayonne, NJ.
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Re: Sites of past USATF/TAC/AAU XC Championships?

Postby Mighty Favog » Tue Nov 06, 2012 9:15 pm

USATF.org lists Jerry Pierce as the 1901 champion. That doesn't necessarily make it so, but it's there.

Tomorrow I'll tidy up whatever last little details that I can get my hands on and make it into a nice-looking .pdf; if I posted what I've put together, it's about 3x the maximum allowable characters. The most notable missing data is the sites/dates of the '64-'71 women's championships.

Also, I presume the body that sponsored the 1885-1889 meets was the NAAA. Can anyone confirm or deny?
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Re: Sites of past USATF/TAC/AAU XC Championships?

Postby gh » Wed Nov 07, 2012 9:24 am

i can probably dig up the women's data from the '64-71 period relatively easily
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Re: Sites of past USATF/TAC/AAU XC Championships?

Postby gh » Wed Nov 07, 2012 9:35 am

dj wrote:
bambam wrote:
gh wrote:Spalding Guide for 1901 doesn't show any XC race, even though it has more obscure shit than you can possibly imagine, like sack racing, gathering stones, running backwards, 3-legged races, etc., etc. (egg & spoon also missing). So maybe dj's contention that there was no '01 race was correct.

Oh yes, and for today's trivia question: L. deB. Handley won the "Knickerbocker Medley Race" that year in 15:42.

Everybody knows what that was comprised of, right?


Well, considering that Louis deBreda Handley competed in the 1904 Olympics in swimming, I would suspect that was part of it.


That was one of six quarter-mile legs, run in immediate succession. But what were the other five legs? I never remember without thinking it through. This was part of the annual meet of the Knickerbocker AC held at their club grounds in Bayonne, NJ.


Yes: walk, run, cycle, horseback, row, swim
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Re: Sites of past USATF/TAC/AAU XC Championships?

Postby Al in NYC » Wed Nov 07, 2012 11:32 am

I'm interested in where the "Detroit" venues were. I see one of them specified as Meadowbrook Country Club, which if we're going to be nit-picky is actually in Northville, about 10 miles west of Detroit. I believe my father, who was from Detroit, ran in one or two of the XC championships held in the area in the late '40s.

The place where Celtic Park once was is in a Queens neighborhood now known as Sunnyside (although the place itself addressed as Woodside, due to a quirk in USPS zip code districting). What remained of the one-time community of Laurel Hill was pretty much destroyed by the building of the Brooklyn-Queens and Long Island expressways. All that remains that would let you know that something else was once there is the Celtic Park Apartments complex, and a tiny one-block street named Celtic Ave. I used to live nearby.
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Re: Sites of past USATF/TAC/AAU XC Championships?

Postby dj » Wed Nov 07, 2012 11:49 am

Al in NYC wrote:The place where Celtic Park once was is in a Queens neighborhood now known as Sunnyside (although the place itself addressed as Woodside, due to a quirk in USPS zip code districting). What remained of the one-time community of Laurel Hill was pretty much destroyed by the building of the Brooklyn-Queens and Long Island expressways. All that remains that would let you know that something else was once there is the Celtic Park Apartments complex, and a tiny one-block street named Celtic Ave. I used to live nearby.


Almost as much as you wanted to know about Celtic Park: http://www.wingedfist.org/Celtic_Park_History.html
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