Greatest HS performance ever.....?


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Re: Greatest HS performance ever.....?

Postby Dave » Wed Oct 31, 2012 6:04 pm

kuha wrote:For the umpteenth time:

Ryun's 3:55.3 in 1965.


I still go with Carter, but not by much.

I was very fortunate to get to see Alan Webb beat Ryun's mark at Pre.
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Re: Greatest HS performance ever.....?

Postby kuha » Wed Oct 31, 2012 6:24 pm

Dave wrote:
kuha wrote:For the umpteenth time:

Ryun's 3:55.3 in 1965.


I still go with Carter, but not by much.

I was very fortunate to get to see Alan Webb beat Ryun's mark at Pre.


I beg to differ. Try matching this performance:
-sets the US record
-wins the national championship race
-defeats the defending Olympic champion and WR holder

NOTHING else (in the modern era) can match this.
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Re: Greatest HS performance ever.....?

Postby bambam » Wed Oct 31, 2012 7:07 pm

lovetorun wrote:
noone wrote:Another perspective on Mary Cain's performance:

The late Glenda Reiser (CAN) ran a 4:06.71 1500 at the Munich Olympics, aged barely 17.


Didn't know that she died...what happened?


She became a doctor, family physician. Died in January 2008.
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Re: Greatest HS performance ever.....?

Postby gh » Wed Oct 31, 2012 8:14 pm

kuha wrote:
Dave wrote:
kuha wrote:For the umpteenth time:

Ryun's 3:55.3 in 1965.


I still go with Carter, but not by much.

I was very fortunate to get to see Alan Webb beat Ryun's mark at Pre.


I beg to differ. Try matching this performance:
-sets the US record
-wins the national championship race
-defeats the defending Olympic champion and WR holder

NOTHING else (in the modern era) can match this.


I wouldn't push the beat Oly champ/WR holder thing to far. Snell by his own admission hadn't basically trained for months, and Ryun was only the third high schooler to beat him on that tour).
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Re: Greatest HS performance ever.....?

Postby 26mi235 » Wed Oct 31, 2012 8:33 pm

kuha wrote:
Dave wrote:
kuha wrote:For the umpteenth time:

Ryun's 3:55.3 in 1965.


I still go with Carter, but not by much.

I was very fortunate to get to see Alan Webb beat Ryun's mark at Pre.


I beg to differ. Try matching this performance:
-sets the US record
-wins the national championship race
-defeats the defending Olympic champion and WR holder

NOTHING else (in the modern era) can match this.


Well, putting the ball out there 80+ feet is something, half a century later, that almost no one has ever done. There have been an awful lot of 3:55 miles. It seems like it has to be the perfect throw, essentially no way he could have done anything at all different to get more than a trivial amount of additional distance.
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Re: Greatest HS performance ever.....?

Postby kuha » Thu Nov 01, 2012 6:03 am

gh wrote:I wouldn't push the beat Oly champ/WR holder thing to far. Snell by his own admission hadn't basically trained for months, and Ryun was only the third high schooler to beat him on that tour).


But it remains true as a simple fact. And Snell did NOT run badly that day--it took a US national record to beat him.
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Re: Greatest HS performance ever.....?

Postby user4 » Thu Nov 01, 2012 7:14 am

They are both great performances, There is still no high schooler that can toss the 12bler 81 feet and there is still no high schooler that can run 3:55 on cinder. Comparing 3:55s on modern surfaces with Ryun's is just silly.
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Re: Greatest HS performance ever.....?

Postby Marlow » Thu Nov 01, 2012 7:22 am

user4 wrote:They are both great performances, There is still no high schooler that can toss the 12bler 81 feet and there is still no high schooler that can run 3:55 on cinder. Comparing 3:55s on modern surfaces with Ryun's is just silly.

A hard-packed cinder surface, such as that race was run on, is not THAT big a deterrent to a fast Mile time. Bob Hayes' chewed up Lane 1 in Tokyo, that was a much bigger deal.
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Re: Greatest HS performance ever.....?

Postby kuha » Thu Nov 01, 2012 7:25 am

user4 wrote:They are both great performances, There is still no high schooler that can toss the 12bler 81 feet and there is still no high schooler that can run 3:55 on cinder. Comparing 3:55s on modern surfaces with Ryun's is just silly.


Completely agree. To be precise, Ryun ran 3:56 on cinders; the 3:55 was on an early all-weather surface. The times aside, the real point is that no HS since has come close to that quality competitive effort, in a race of true international significance.
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Re: Greatest HS performance ever.....?

Postby Marlow » Thu Nov 01, 2012 8:21 am

kuha wrote:
user4 wrote:They are both great performances, There is still no high schooler that can toss the 12bler 81 feet and there is still no high schooler that can run 3:55 on cinder. Comparing 3:55s on modern surfaces with Ryun's is just silly.

Completely agree. To be precise, Ryun ran 3:56 on cinders; the 3:55 was on an early all-weather surface. The times aside, the real point is that no HS since has come close to that quality competitive effort, in a race of true international significance.

Which doesn't preclude Carter's performance being 'superior' (whatever that means in an apple/orangey kinda way).
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Re: Greatest HS performance ever.....?

Postby user4 » Thu Nov 01, 2012 8:54 am

Marlow wrote:
user4 wrote:They are both great performances, There is still no high schooler that can toss the 12bler 81 feet and there is still no high schooler that can run 3:55 on cinder. Comparing 3:55s on modern surfaces with Ryun's is just silly.

A hard-packed cinder surface, such as that race was run on, is not THAT big a deterrent to a fast Mile time. Bob Hayes' chewed up Lane 1 in Tokyo, that was a much bigger deal.


Actually no, it wasnt a "much bigger deal", whatever that means, but especially in the context of this discussion.
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Re: Greatest HS performance ever.....?

Postby kuha » Thu Nov 01, 2012 9:07 am

Marlow wrote:
kuha wrote:
user4 wrote:They are both great performances, There is still no high schooler that can toss the 12bler 81 feet and there is still no high schooler that can run 3:55 on cinder. Comparing 3:55s on modern surfaces with Ryun's is just silly.

Completely agree. To be precise, Ryun ran 3:56 on cinders; the 3:55 was on an early all-weather surface. The times aside, the real point is that no HS since has come close to that quality competitive effort, in a race of true international significance.

Which doesn't preclude Carter's performance being 'superior' (whatever that means in an apple/orangey kinda way).


In my opinion (who's else could it be?) it ABSOLUTELY DOES mean that Ryun's mile is inherently "superior"--in precisely an apple vs orange way, which is the only way possible.

None of this should be perceived as a slam on Carter's amazing throw; it WAS incredible, etc. It's a matter of subjectively ranking performances of reasonably equivalent quality.
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Re: Greatest HS performance ever.....?

Postby Marlow » Thu Nov 01, 2012 12:39 pm

kuha wrote:In my opinion (who's else could it be?) . . . subjectively ranking performances of reasonably equivalent quality [is impossible].

Editorial license! :wink:
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Re: Greatest HS performance ever.....?

Postby marknhj » Thu Nov 01, 2012 12:56 pm

Marlow wrote:
kuha wrote:
user4 wrote:They are both great performances, There is still no high schooler that can toss the 12bler 81 feet and there is still no high schooler that can run 3:55 on cinder. Comparing 3:55s on modern surfaces with Ryun's is just silly.

Completely agree. To be precise, Ryun ran 3:56 on cinders; the 3:55 was on an early all-weather surface. The times aside, the real point is that no HS since has come close to that quality competitive effort, in a race of true international significance.

Which doesn't preclude Carter's performance being 'superior' (whatever that means in an apple/orangey kinda way).


I would relish every opportunity possible to rate a shot performance over one in the mile. But a man - child throwing a light shot a long way can't be rated over a child - child doing the business at a standard distance against world class opposition, in my opinion. Unfortunately.
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Re: Greatest HS performance ever.....?

Postby kuha » Thu Nov 01, 2012 1:01 pm

marknhj wrote:
Marlow wrote:
kuha wrote:
user4 wrote:They are both great performances, There is still no high schooler that can toss the 12bler 81 feet and there is still no high schooler that can run 3:55 on cinder. Comparing 3:55s on modern surfaces with Ryun's is just silly.

Completely agree. To be precise, Ryun ran 3:56 on cinders; the 3:55 was on an early all-weather surface. The times aside, the real point is that no HS since has come close to that quality competitive effort, in a race of true international significance.

Which doesn't preclude Carter's performance being 'superior' (whatever that means in an apple/orangey kinda way).


I would relish every opportunity possible to rate a shot performance over one in the mile. But a man - child throwing a light shot a long way can't be rated over a child - child doing the business at a standard distance against world class opposition, in my opinion. Unfortunately.


You, sir, are a sage and a scholar.
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Re: Greatest HS performance ever.....?

Postby dukehjsteve » Thu Nov 01, 2012 1:36 pm

Please remember:

kuha is always right. ( Really. )
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Re: Greatest HS performance ever.....?

Postby kuha » Thu Nov 01, 2012 1:50 pm

dukehjsteve wrote:Please remember:

kuha is always right. ( Really. )


:lol: :lol: :lol: You won't get many seconds on that motion!
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Re: Greatest HS performance ever.....?

Postby lonewolf » Thu Nov 01, 2012 7:37 pm

Ryun 3:55
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Re: Greatest HS performance ever.....?

Postby Marlow » Fri Nov 02, 2012 3:29 am

lonewolf wrote:Ryun 3:55

I suspect the 'problem' with those who think that Ryun's 3:55 is superior to Carter's 81' is their understanding of how much hard work went into training for and then running that race, whereas Carter just got in the ring and threw a shot once. In terms of which was the greater effort, there's clearly no contest. But, the performance, the sheer magnitude, and outlying nature of 81' is just too . . . outré . . . to be overlooked as the the POC.
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Re: Greatest HS performance ever.....?

Postby marknhj » Fri Nov 02, 2012 7:06 am

Marlow wrote:
lonewolf wrote:Ryun 3:55

I suspect the 'problem' with those who think that Ryun's 3:55 is superior to Carter's 81' is their understanding of how much hard work went into training for and then running that race, whereas Carter just got in the ring and threw a shot once. In terms of which was the greater effort, there's clearly no contest. But, the performance, the sheer magnitude, and outlying nature of 81' is just too . . . outré . . . to be overlooked as the the POC.


Are you suggesting that those who don't agree with you are ignorant, or lack your self-perceived deep understanding, about field events?
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Re: Greatest HS performance ever.....?

Postby aaronk » Fri Nov 02, 2012 7:19 am

I wish people weren't so focused on Mike Carter's TWELVE pound shot performance of 81+.
If they'd turn to his SIXTEEN pound HSR from that same year, a toss of 67-9, I'd be more apt to consider Carter's mark as competitive with Ryun's.
(Though I'd still think Ryun's was better!!)

In the competitive world of T&F, the one mile race is still run at several big meets, such as Bislett and Prefontaine....as well as several others!!
Tell me, how many big meets OUTSIDE of HS hold the TWELVE pound shot put as an event...let alone a FEATURED event??

Answer: ZERO!!

That to me makes Carter's 16 pound HSR...plus the fact that he has the EIGHT best marks in the 16 pounder....and is the ONLY HS'er to go over 63-8 with it....much more relevant to our discussion here!!

To me, the 12 pounder is as unnecessary and irrelevant as the 1600 or 3200 meter runs!!
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Re: Greatest HS performance ever.....?

Postby Marlow » Fri Nov 02, 2012 7:52 am

marknhj wrote:Are you suggesting that those who don't agree with you are ignorant, or lack your self-perceived deep understanding, about field events?

Fair question and I see how it looks that way, but no, I'm talking about the deep abiding respect Ryun, in general, but especially his HS exploits, is granted by RUNNERS. They look at all the pain and work he had to put in to harness his incredible (almost literally - unbelievable) talent. Then they look at some skinny, gawky, knock-kneed High Jumper (especially those limey ones!) and dismiss him and his cute little run and jump. Similarly, Carter is just this big beefy 'oaf' who can muscle a hunk of metal far - big whoop. This represents a very real representation of field eventers UNIVERSALLY. I'm just sayin' . . . :wink:

aaronk wrote:I wish people weren't so focused on Mike Carter's TWELVE pound shot performance of 81+. If they'd turn to his SIXTEEN pound HSR from that same year, a toss of 67-9, I'd be more apt to consider Carter's mark as competitive with Ryun's.

His 67' is NOTHING compared to his 81-footer. We're specifically talking about HIGH SCHOOL performances so the 16-pound shot is just an odd curiosity there. As far as HS performances go, Webb has surpassed Ryun in the record books (yes, I understood the circumstances and conditions were different!). No one is even close (tho Crouser was intriguing) to passing Carter.

Maybe Mark is right and I am just over-reacting to the usual running bias that exists in T&F fandom. But . . . tho I LOVE (LOVE LOVE) what Ryun did, Carter's throw is other-worldly (to moi). To make the point finer, I consider Ryun the greater performer! But that one throw . . .
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Re: Greatest HS performance ever.....?

Postby marknhj » Fri Nov 02, 2012 11:02 am

Marlow - I see your premise and agree to a certain extent. As a very broad generality, in my experience track-centric athletes and fans have significantly less knowledge and appreciation of field events than field-centric athletes and fans have of track events.

Where I would disagree, and there is definitely a cultural element at play in that HS athletics is very visible in the US and bordering on invisible in most other countries, is that I have always believed Carter's 81' to be an extreme fluke-like oddity and that his 21.76m and Olympic medal is the real mark of his fabulous prowess and talent. I do appreciate that most US HS track & field fans will vehemently disagree.
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Re: Greatest HS performance ever.....?

Postby Pego » Fri Nov 02, 2012 11:26 am

dukehjsteve wrote:Please remember:

kuha is always right. ( Really. )


Almost always :wink: .
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Re: Greatest HS performance ever.....?

Postby Tuariki » Fri Nov 02, 2012 11:40 am

If one restricts commentary to those who attended USA high schools then I am in the camp that supports Michael Carter as being the best HS performance which is for me marginally ahead of Ryun's mile.

However, so as not to shut out the rest of the world I think the logical and fairest comparison has to take in age as a factor. On that basis I think Jacko Gill's 24.45 (5kg), 22.31 (6kg) and 20.38 (7.26kg) as a 16 year old are better performances than Carter's 24.77 and 20.65 as an 18 year old.

Carter's 24.77 is still the benchmark performance for Jacko to chase though. Therefore, it will be interesting to see what Jacko can do this year as a 17 year old over the next 7 weeks. My predictions 23.20 (6kg) and 21.00 (7.26kg).

gh wrote:Warsaw, 9/20/11 (real competition)
5kgSP (11.03lb): 1. Majewski 81-7½ (24.88); 2. Armstrong 79-2¾ (24.15); 3. Cantwell 74-10 (22.81).


These results tend to suggest IMO that Jacko has much greater speed than the world's best given his comparative lack of size and strength.

However, the best performance all time for the HS age group IMO is Nigel Amos' 1:41.73.
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Re: Greatest HS performance ever.....?

Postby Marlow » Fri Nov 02, 2012 12:14 pm

Tuariki wrote:However, so as not to shut out the rest of the world I think the logical and fairest comparison has to take in age as a factor. On that basis I think Jacko Gill's 24.45 (5kg), 22.31 (6kg) and 20.38 (7.26kg) as a 16 year old are better performances than Carter's 24.77 and 20.65 as an 18 year old.

Yes, but that's not the task at hand (thread title): what's the greatest HS performance ever? International single-age records are a wholenutherbuncha fish to fry.
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Re: Greatest HS performance ever.....?

Postby Tuariki » Fri Nov 02, 2012 12:16 pm

Marlow wrote:
Tuariki wrote:However, so as not to shut out the rest of the world I think the logical and fairest comparison has to take in age as a factor. On that basis I think Jacko Gill's 24.45 (5kg), 22.31 (6kg) and 20.38 (7.26kg) as a 16 year old are better performances than Carter's 24.77 and 20.65 as an 18 year old.

Yes, but that's not the task at hand (thread title): what's the greatest HS performance ever? International single-age records are a wholenutherbuncha fish to fry.


There are actually high schools in other countries. And many of them such as New Zealand have age group classification.
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Re: Greatest HS performance ever.....?

Postby Marlow » Fri Nov 02, 2012 12:20 pm

marknhj wrote:I have always believed Carter's 81' to be an extreme fluke-like oddity and that his 21.76m and Olympic medal is the real mark of his fabulous prowess and talent.

As I said in the post above this: that's a different question. There's NO doubt that the 81' was a fluke, aka anomaly, bolt outta the blue, one-off, never to be duplicated (though to fair, it was also his LAST meet as a HSer) performance, but that is often the nature of a Best performance (where is MJ's back-up times (19.4s, 19.5s) to his 19.32? I'm convinced that if all had been legit with Beamon's jump (no altitude, no max wind), it still would have broken the WR by almost a foot - 28-4ish, for argument's sake, and been his best jump by far.
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Re: Greatest HS performance ever.....?

Postby Marlow » Fri Nov 02, 2012 12:21 pm

Tuariki wrote:There are actually high schools in other countries. And many of them such as New Zealand have age group classification.

Then if (if!) he surpasses 81' with a 12-lb shot, he's the Dude!
He's not there yet, and his other shot performances are NOT (yet?) on a par with Carter.
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Re: Greatest HS performance ever.....?

Postby Tuariki » Fri Nov 02, 2012 12:30 pm

Marlow wrote:
Tuariki wrote:There are actually high schools in other countries. And many of them such as New Zealand have age group classification.

Then if (if!) he surpasses 81' with a 12-lb shot, he's the Dude!
He's not there yet, and his other shot performances are NOT (yet?) on a par with Carter.


I agree that Carter's 24.77 (and 20.65) is superior to anything that Jacko has done if age is not counted as a factor. So it will there be interesting to see what Jacko can achieve over the next 7 weeks while he is still 17.
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