Greatest HS performance ever.....?

[Jacksf]

I don't know enough about HS cross country to comment, but this article indicates that this is an astounding performance by Sarah Baxter -
http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/highschoo ... 30958.html

[kuha]

The film is pretty mind-boggling.

But no, not the greatest HS performance ever.

[gh]

If Michael Carter's 80-footer is a 100, then this is about a 62.2.

[26mi235]

That mile back in the 60s given the world level back then is way, way beyond where Sarah Baxter is. She might be good enough or not to take down the high school/Am Jr 5000 mark, but even that is a minute and a half off the WR -- she would be lapped.

[CookyMonzta]

If Michael Carter's 80-footer is a 100, then this is about a 62.2.

I was about to suggest the same thing (Mike Carter's 81-footer with a 12lb. shot). It may take a guy running a low 9.9 or even a 9.8, or a girl running low 10.9 or a 10.8 to top that. Maybe Mary Cain running 1:58.xx or under 4:06 could rank just as high.

Here in NYC, we have Kadecia Baird from Guyana, running for Medgar Evers H.S. She ran 51.04 as a junior this past summer. What are the odds of her running 49.xx in 2013?

[aaronk]

That mile back in the 60s given the world level back then is way, way beyond where Sarah Baxter is. She might be good enough or not to take down the high school/Am Jr 5000 mark, but even that is a minute and a half off the WR -- she would be lapped.

If you're speaking of Jim Ryun's 3:55.3 in June 1965, beating Peter Snell, then I'd have to agree.
Based on the ERA he competed in, that was an incredible time!!

As was Gerry Lindgren's 13:44.0 5K in Compton in 1964, and his 8:40 indoor 2 mile that year!!

As for the greatest-ever HS marks, I'll take it by gender, and by indoor or outdoor.
I'm NOT going to rank HS CC, for reasons outlined in earlier posts.

Boys Outdoor

Jim Ryun.....3:55.3 one mile.....and 3:39.0 1500
Michael Carter.......81-3 1/2 SP (HS wt.)
Gerry Lindgren.....13:44.0 5K
Darrell Robinson.....44.69 400
Rudy Chapa........28:32.7 10K

Girls Outdoor

Mary Cain.......4:11.01 1500
Candy Young......12.95 100H
Mary Shea......32:52.5 10K
Kim Gallagher.....2:00.07 800
Allyson Felix.....22.11 200

Boys Indoor

Gerry Lindgren....8:40.0 2 mile
Colin McCullough.....93.3 1/4 WT (25 lb)
Alan Webb......3:43.27 and 3:59.86 1500 and one mile
Casey Combest....6.57 60
Robby Andrews........2:22.28 1000

Girls Indoor

Mary Decker (Slaney).......2:01.8--2:02.4 800/880
Shelby Ashe.......68-2 1/2 WT (20 lb)
Melody Fairchild 9:17.4 and 9:55.92 3000/2 mile
Francena McCorory....51.93 400
Jacquelyn Coward (8.16 60H) and Ashley Owens (7.19 60) tied for 5th.

[catson52]

Carter's SP record is difficult to beat.
If this thread includes all performances by sub 18 year olds, I would say Yaschenko's HJ WR from 1977, may top Carter.

[kuha]

Of course the idea of comparing great x-c performances to track performances is flawed from the start. One is truly quantifiable; the other just isn't. Baxter's really remarkable run needs to be discussed in the context of other great x-c races. There are way too many variables to even pretend to have a serious discussion about it vs. the history of track & field performances.

[user4]

Didnt Roy Martin have a fairly impressive day a few decades ago in Texas.

[noone]

Another perspective on Mary Cain's performance:

The late Glenda Reiser (CAN) ran a 4:06.71 1500 at the Munich Olympics, aged barely 17.

[Conor Dary]

The most exciting high school performance and one of the best in track period, is Debbie Heald against the Russians in 1972. Go to youtube and see the video.

[lovetorun]

Another perspective on Mary Cain's performance:

The late Glenda Reiser (CAN) ran a 4:06.71 1500 at the Munich Olympics, aged barely 17.

Didn't know that she died...what happened?

[no one]

"Longtime cross country/track expert Rich Gonzalez told the Riverside Press-Enterprise that Baxter's effort was "the most amazing female individual performance in U.S. prep annals." Max Wire, Dave Krider

"Afterward there were people who said that that was the most remarkable race, not only in high school cross country history, but that maybe it'll go down in the annals (of all time), maybe like Billy Mills in the (Olympic) 10,000 meters in Tokyo. Ventura County Star (semi local paper)

I''ll go with Heald's mile vsworld ranked Russian milers, per Conor post or Decker's indoor 800: "15-year-old set indoor world records at 800 meters and 880 and 1,000 yards last winter and won the 800 meters handily at the U.S.S.R. indoor meet in Moscow." SI, 1974

some international perspective" Baby Face ran 5000m (track) in 14:49, at 17y5m ... and 300m in 8:41 at 17y7m.

good - yes; great - yes; fantastic - yes .... but

[tandfman]

The most exciting high school performance and one of the best in track period, is Debbie Heald against the Russians in 1972. Go to youtube and see the video.

I was there. It really was incredibly exciting.

[tandfman]

Let's not forget Bob Mathias, who won the Olympic decathlon gold medal in 1948 at the age of 17, shortly after his high school graduation. And then there was Ted Meredith, who won the Olympic 800 and set a world record in doing so. He was 18 at the time, but he was still in high school.

[aaronk]

Let's not forget Bob Mathias, who won the Olympic decathlon gold medal in 1948 at the age of 17, shortly after his high school graduation. And then there was Ted Meredith, who won the Olympic 800 and set a world record in doing so. He was 18 at the time, but he was still in high school.

Perhaps we should rate the performances (and athletes) by ERA......by decade, or something like that.
After all, I rated Ryun's 3:55.3 as #1 on my outdoor list (see earlier post). But I did NOT rate Alan Webb's 3:53 from 2001 (or his 3:38 1500) at all!!
Same with Verzbicas's 2 mile of 8:29, which is far better than Lindgren's 8:40.
Ditto with Galen Rupp's 13:37, better than Lindgren's 13:44 from 1964.
And on and on!!
You can't really compare Ted Meredith to Michael Granville.
Or Bob Mathias to Gunnar Nixon!!

Anyone want to be the first to rate HS performances by DECADE.....or other measurements.
Maybe......
to 1929
1930-1949.
1950's
1960's
1970's
1980's
1990's
2000's (from 1/1/00 to present day)??

[dj]

Let's not forget Bob Mathias, who won the Olympic decathlon gold medal in 1948 at the age of 17, shortly after his high school graduation. And then there was Ted Meredith, who won the Olympic 800 and set a world record in doing so. He was 18 at the time, but he was still in high school.

Meredith was 20 at the time and had finished prep school less than a month earlier. Mathias went to prep school the year after his gold medal.

[user4]

We could start with a top 10 and then start a rank process:
Based on what has been said so far 3 stand out as definitely in the top 10:
1 ) Mathias, Deca,
2) Ryun, 800/1500,
3) M. Carter, SP.

[26mi235]

How many of the Olympic Finalists in the shot could put the 12lb ball 81 feet? How many of the finalist in the woman's 1500 could run 4:11? 4:11 is good, but it is not remotely in the same league as 81 feet. If you were putting a relay together for the 4x800 against the Russians in the Cold-war era, would you be picking Mary Cain for one of the slots -- Decker was running it. I doubt anyone would even think for a second about Cain. She would have to knock ten seconds off of that mark to be in the same league.

As for Baxter's run, while it is difficult to make comparisons from cross country, I would guess that there are so many women that would leave her in the dust at Mt SAC, while there is hardly a man alive that could go 81 with the 12 lb ball. Complete lack of perspective in my opinion.

[AS]

Another perspective on Mary Cain's performance:

The late Glenda Reiser (CAN) ran a 4:06.71 1500 at the Munich Olympics, aged barely 17.

And Georgie Clarke of AUS who ran 4:06.77 in Jan 2000 as a 15 yo (and went on to run the OG later that year and make the semis). She also ran 2:02.49 as a 14yo, and 2:01.73 at 16!

http://www.iaaf.org/athletes/biographie ... index.html

[aaronk]

How many of the Olympic Finalists in the shot could put the 12lb ball 81 feet? How many of the finalist in the woman's 1500 could run 4:11? 4:11 is good, but it is not remotely in the same league as 81 feet. If you were putting a relay together for the 4x800 against the Russians in the Cold-war era, would you be picking Mary Cain for one of the slots -- Decker was running it. I doubt anyone would even think for a second about Cain. She would have to knock ten seconds off of that mark to be in the same league.

As for Baxter's run, while it is difficult to make comparisons from cross country, I would guess that there are so many women that would leave her in the dust at Mt SAC, while there is hardly a man alive that could go 81 with the 12 lb ball. Complete lack of perspective in my opinion.

We're comparing high schooler against high schooler, not high schooler against World Class fields.
In the former case, his 81-3 1/2 is the one we use to measure his greatness.

But he also holds the HSR with the 16 pounder, having tossed 67-9 just 18 days after the 12 lb record.
While no one's touched the 81 yet, many guys have surpassed 67-0.

Cain shattered Hasay's record by 3.49 seconds in one race!!
As a 16 year old sophomore!!

Carter was an 18 year old senior!!

And tell me, how many HS girls have run a 4:39 mile??
Follow-up question: How many HS girls who have run a 4:39 mile have ended it with a 62.5 final 400?? Finishing far in front of the rest of the runners!!

I have a feeling MANY (or ALL??) of the World Class 70 footer's could toss that 12 pounder close to 90 feet!
And let's see what times Mary runs in 2013 and 2014.

[26mi235]

We're comparing high schooler against high schooler, not high schooler against World Class fields.
And tell me, how many HS girls have run a 4:39 mile??
Follow-up question: How many HS girls who have run a 4:39 mile have ended it with a 62.5 final 400?? Finishing far in front of the rest of the runners!!

I have a feeling MANY (or ALL??) of the World Class 70 footer's could toss that 12 pounder close to 90 feet!
And let's see what times Mary runs in 2013 and 2014.

You are mightily mistaken on that twleve pounder. I will defer to someone who knows more than I, but I think no one has ever done that (and they do have competitions that use a range of weights, so there are observations).

As for the comparisons to world class, they certainly are apt. The claim is best high school performance ever. These world class fields and the performances in them are by high school kids. If these current athletes are to be considered in that class they have to be at the level of the top athletes in the world, not the top current high school competition. When you set a high bar (best ever) you have to realize how high that bar is compared to a very good but not-in-the-class-of best.

As another example, the high schooler Goergie Clarke (AUS) ran 2:02, 4:06, and 2:01 at ages 15, 16, and 17 or maybe 14, 15, 16. She was on the edge of world-class. Unfortunately she never got appreciably better.

[tandfman]

Let's not forget Bob Mathias, who won the Olympic decathlon gold medal in 1948 at the age of 17, shortly after his high school graduation. And then there was Ted Meredith, who won the Olympic 800 and set a world record in doing so. He was 18 at the time, but he was still in high school.

Meredith was 20 at the time and had finished prep school less than a month earlier.. . .

You're right, of course. I looked up Meredith's DOB and then brain farted when doing the subtraction.

[jhc68]

Baxter is certainly impressive and 16-flat at Mt.Sac is truly remarkable.
That time on that challenging course has been a bragging rights milestone for male HS runners for decades.
In fairness to Rich Gonzales, he limits this "greatest" paradigm to American and female performances. Still, it is not a world class performance as were many other HS marks mentioned already in this thread.
Nor is it a Beamonsque mark that is out of sight for any of her cohorts. Now if she improves another 45 seconds and runs sub 15:30 THAT would be an other worldly high school mark. It would be fun to bring the best east African HS girls to Mt.Sac to see how they compare.
I agree with the notion that Greatest HS Performances must be world class and on a world class stage... Like Ryun or Carter or Mathias or Lindgren.
On a tier just below those acheivements, I'd also mention Rey Brown's 7'3" HJ at the 1968 OTs. He was just out of 11th grade and his jump was only 2 3/4 inches off Brumel's WR at that time. On a raw height differential, this would be equal to a HS 7' 9 3/4" jump now.

[bushop]

We're comparing high schooler against high schooler, not high schooler against world class fields. In the former case, his 81-3 1/2 is the one we use to measure his greatness. But he also holds the HSR with the 16 pounder, having tossed 67-9 just 18 days after the 12 lb record. While no one's touched the 81 yet, many guys have surpassed 67-0.

Carter's 67' has nothing to do with his 81'. The greatness as a performance of the 81' is that it is a singular anomaly... beyond anything putters considered. It is not an indication of Carter's talent. It is a beautiful moment in the history of shot putting.

I have a feeling many (or all??) of the World Class 70 footer's could toss that 12 pounder close to 90 feet.

None can.

BTW. rumor: I've heard there is no realtime speed film of Carter's record... just the slow motion film many throwing fans have seen. Does anyone know of a realtime film?

[26mi235]

The freshman Hollander just ran 19:12 to win the Big West title by 30 seconds over a pretty good runner (Sumpter) and a minute ahead of third. That is two 9:36 3km back-to-back, so I doubt Baxter is the best US teenager.

[aaronk]

The freshman Hollander just ran 19:12 to win the Big West title by 30 seconds over a pretty good runner (Sumpter) and a minute ahead of third. That is two 9:36 3km back-to-back, so I doubt Baxter is the best US teenager.

Given the differences between CC and track, I'm gonna wait and see what Hollander and Baxter (and even Cain, though she's already proven herself on the track) do on the track.

Hollander's rush to the top tier of collegiate running reminds me....sort of....of the breakthrough of Natosha Rogers this year.
If she can turn these great CC performances into some VERY fast 3K's and 5K's (or even 1500's!!) on the track, I'd be much more impressed with her.

Ditto for Baxter. She had, like Cain, some pretty good times earlier this year (and in 2011), but now that she's reached another (higher) plateau....seemingly!!....let's see what she does on the track!!

If she improves her times there as much as she has her CC times, THEN I'll be as impressed as some people are now by her CC times.

P.S. Just now watched Flo-Track's 14:44 video of Baxter's 16:00 run at Mt SAC!! Don't have the link for it, but just go to Flo-Track and you'll find it. What a run!!! All by herself most of the race, and she had to run some uphills (as well as some downhills), so it didn't appear to be a super easy course. (Never been to Mt SAC, so have no real knowledge of the course!!) The announcer on the video was SCREAMING at the top of his lungs with superlative after superlative, adding greatly to the excitement of watching it unfold. It actually brought me to tears!!! Really!! It's a MUST SEE video!!!

All that said, I'll STILL wait to see if/how much she improves on the TRACK next year!!

[Dave]

We're comparing high schooler against high schooler, not high schooler against world class fields. In the former case, his 81-3 1/2 is the one we use to measure his greatness. But he also holds the HSR with the 16 pounder, having tossed 67-9 just 18 days after the 12 lb record. While no one's touched the 81 yet, many guys have surpassed 67-0.

Carter's 67' has nothing to do with his 81'. The greatness as a performance of the 81' is that it is a singular anomaly... beyond anything putters considered. It is not an indication of Carter's talent. It is a beautiful moment in the history of shot putting.

I have a feeling many (or all??) of the World Class 70 footer's could toss that 12 pounder close to 90 feet.

None can.

BTW. rumor: I've heard there is no realtime speed film of Carter's record... just the slow motion film many throwing fans have seen. Does anyone know of a realtime film?

Does anyone have examples of older throwers with the 12lb ball?

I believe Bushop is probably correct that no one else has done anything like that but I am curious how more mature throwers have done with it.

[gh]

Warsaw, 9/20/11 (real competition)


5kgSP (11.03lb): 1. Majewski 81-7½ (24.88); 2. Armstrong 79-2¾ (24.15); 3. Cantwell 74-10 (22.81).

6kgSP (13.23lb): 1. Armstrong 76-3¾ (23.26); 2. Majewski 75-11½ (23.15); 3. Cantwell 74‑6¼ (22.71).

7.26kgSP (16lb): 1. Cantwell 70-3½ (21.42); 2. Armstrong 69-8 (21.23); 3. Majewski 68-5¼ (20.86).

8kgSP (17.6lb): 1. Cantwell 66-6 (20.27); 2. Armstrong 65-8¾ (20.03); 3. Majewski 64‑9¾ (19.75).

Allow me to suggest that the Carter mark (81-3½/24.77 with a 12lb/5.44kg)) seems to be of pretty decent caliber across the board.

[Marlow]

Allow me to suggest that the Carter mark (81-3½/24.77 with a 12lb/5.44kg)) seems to be of pretty decent caliber across the board.

When I sometimes coach the shot, we use a softball for learning. Even though I can throw a softball pretty far, my best SP with a softball was 70', because it's so hard to generate that kind of arm speed (unless you really flick the wrist and fingers, which even the Big Guys can't fully do like one can with a softball) with the 'odd' pushing motion that the SP uses. 80' with a 12-lb is an amazing feat for any full-grown ultra-strong guy, much less a teenager.

[noone]

Another perspective on Mary Cain's performance:

The late Glenda Reiser (CAN) ran a 4:06.71 1500 at the Munich Olympics, aged barely 17.

Didn't know that she died...what happened?

See the obituary from 2008:

http://www.athletics.ca/display_news.asp?newsid=469

[James Fields]

For "greatest high school peformance," I favor what Bert Nelson described on page 60 of his "Olympic Track and Field" booklet -- winning an Olympic Championship with World Record performance: Elizabeth Robinson / 100 meter dash and Bob Mathias / Decathlon.

[fasttrack85]

I will go with Allyson Felix's 22.11 altitude run in Mexico into a headwind as a 17 year old high schooler. I remember it well becuz I was 17 and in high school as well.

[catson52]

Looks like almost all the discussion is about US athletes (only), although some posters express the opinion that all athletes should be included before their 18th birthday. Mathias' 1948 victory was with a score nowhere near a WR - the opposition was weak. His 1952 victory was with a WR, by which time he was 21 years old. Elizabeth Robinson's win has merit - but I believe Yaschenko's WR in USA (Richmond?) is clearly the outstanding performance.

[user4]

Mathias, OG gold at 17, broke the world record at 19 years of age, 1950. Pseudo-sophisticates like to say that the Decathlon OG of 1948 was a weak field, but why do we not hear them say the same regarding other events? As WR holder at 19, he went on to capture OG gold again in 1952 at 22 yrs. What would he have done at 26 ? Mathias is the best teen/HS decathlete ever.