Where does Little Mary (Cain) go now?


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Where does Little Mary (Cain) go now?

Postby aaronk » Sat Oct 20, 2012 3:42 am

Don't know her height, so can't say she's "little".
But her "association" with Alberto Salazar (recent T&FN front page news article) could have significant effect on Mary's future.
Good.....or not so good?

Some points:

She trains with the Bronxville (HS) boys, because the girls can't stay with her or challenge her.

She not only "broke" the HSR in the 1500, she SHATTERED it beyond recognition!! Similar to when Herb Elliott took the WR in the mile from 3:57.2 to 3:54.5 in one shot, or when Jim Ryun took it from 3:53.2 to 3:51.3!!

At the top of her game (4:11.01 shape), there is NO ONE in all of HS track who can challenge her!!

She ran 14:03 last week, the fastest of the year, and won by 25 seconds, in a CC race.

Her 4:11.01 is equal to a 4:28 mile, 7 seconds better than Polly Plumer's HSR!!

As a 16 year old HS soph, she ran what would've placed her as the 22nd fastest all-time performer on the COLLEGIATE list!!

So, what would Salazar add to (or take away from!!!) this already elite-level mix??

Mary is a time-oriented runner, from all I've read.
She prefers a fast time, a PR, a record, over a medal or even a victory.
(My kind of gal!!!)

While Alberto has brought Rupp and Farah and others to fast times, he's also stretched out their progress over years.

I believe, from what I've read, that Mary wants to progress....set new standards.....NOW!!!

Would Alberto slow her down??
Would he have her run "tactical" races rather than time trials??
Would he keep her from racing, and have her "build" for future years??

I think Mary's fine as she is.
If MARY controls her racing and her schedule, okay.
If Alberto takes control.....then NO!!!
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Re: Where does Little Mary (Cain) go now?

Postby Master Po » Sat Oct 20, 2012 5:02 am

While I am not quite ready to put Mary Cain in the same realm as Herb Elliott and Jim Ryun :) , I do share the appreciation of her achievements so far and hopes for her future.

We have lots of comparative data of other high level prep runners whose careers didn't proceed beyond, or much beyond, their prep accomplishments. So, thinking historically, one could say the odds are against her, as they would be for anyone at this level at this age. No criticisms here -- just an observation of what often happens. For many of those, it's probably the case that the arc of their careers just developed that way, but it is likely that case that for some prep phenoms, consultation with someone from the best coaches in the country might have helped them a bit. At the least, it's not a stretch to imagine this.

On the other side of this general history, regarding Salazar + prep phenom, the data set = Galen Rupp, and that history looks pretty good. What about Salazar's work with Rupp over the past ~10 years would lead one to be skeptical about any advice he might give to Mary Cain? I remember a fair amount of hand-wringing when Salazar started working with Rupp, but Rupp seems to have turned out OK.

In any case, Salazar's consultation with Cain isn't likely to be the same. For starters, at this point, geography is likely to make any advising of Cain by Salazar at the prep level to be different than Salazar & Rupp. We'll see how it develops, but it's hard for me to see how a consultation with Salazar is going to impede Cain's progress.
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Re: Where does Little Mary (Cain) go now?

Postby Marlow » Sat Oct 20, 2012 6:32 am

aaronk wrote:She not only "broke" the HSR in the 1500, she SHATTERED it beyond recognition!! Similar to when Herb Elliott . . . Jim Ryun . . . [hyperbole alert]

She ran 14:03 last week [it wasn't 5K!]

Her 4:11.01 is equal to a 4:28 mile [no, it really isn't]


aaron, I truly admire your enthusiasm, but don't post immediately after three cups of espresso! :D
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Re: Where does Little Mary (Cain) go now?

Postby tandfman » Sat Oct 20, 2012 7:13 am

Master Po wrote:We have lots of comparative data of other high level prep runners whose careers didn't proceed beyond, or much beyond, their prep accomplishments. So, thinking historically, one could say the odds are against her, as they would be for anyone at this level at this age. No criticisms here -- just an observation of what often happens. For many of those, it's probably the case that the arc of their careers just developed that way. . .

You're right. But Mary Cain's accomplishments this past season were really extraordinary--she is as exciting a distance prospect as I have seen in a long, long time. Yes, she could burn out or peak prematurely, as have so many prep phenoms before her. But It would really be exciting to see her progress much further. Considering what she's done at 16, her potential seems almost unlimited.
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Re: Where does Little Mary (Cain) go now?

Postby aaronk » Sat Oct 20, 2012 10:07 am

Marlow wrote:
aaronk wrote:She not only "broke" the HSR in the 1500, she SHATTERED it beyond recognition!! Similar to when Herb Elliott . . . Jim Ryun . . . [hyperbole alert]

She ran 14:03 last week [it wasn't 5K!]

Her 4:11.01 is equal to a 4:28 mile [no, it really isn't]


aaron, I truly admire your enthusiasm, but don't post immediately after three cups of espresso! :D


You're funny!!
Anyhooooo.....when I compared what Cain did with her 4:11 to what Elliott and Ryun did, I was mainly noting the number of seconds they broke the previous WR by.
I was NOT saying she's the next Elliott or Ryun!!
Normally, mile (and 1500) records are broken by TENTHS or even HUNDRETHS of a second....not by FULL second(S)!!
So Mary moving Jordan Hasay's mark forward by 3.49 seconds deserves the "hyperbolic" phrase "shattered beyond recognition"!!

I KNOW the 14:03 wasn't a 5K. I believe it was 2.5 miles, right??
Anyone who thinks I meant 5K must have drank FIFTEEN cups of espresso!! :D
But CC times are pretty meaningless, IMO....at ANY level (elite, collegiate, HS).
Too much variation in courses, bad weather, etc.
But she DID win by 25 seconds, and it WAS the fastest (2.5 mile??) time of the year!!

Lastly, if T&FN says to add about 17 seconds to a 1500 time to figure their mile time, that's exactly what I did.
But even if you add TWENTY seconds to her time, she still breaks (shatters!!!) Plumer's mark by FOUR seconds!!

As for HS phenoms not progressing much after HS (a la Hasay and even A Felix, who didn't better that 22.11 time for years!!!), I think Cain is going to break the mold. She WANTS to break records, and to be the best!! And her talent is for real!! Did Hasay end her records with 62-63 second laps....running by herself??
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Re: Where does Little Mary (Cain) go now?

Postby Dutra5 » Sat Oct 20, 2012 10:19 am

aaronk wrote:
As for HS phenoms not progressing much after HS (a la Hasay and even A Felix, who didn't better that 22.11 time for years!!!), I think Cain is going to break the mold. She WANTS to break records, and to be the best!! And her talent is for real!! Did Hasay end her records with 62-63 second laps....running by herself??


A lot of what holds back teenagers, particularly girls, from advancing as they get older are physical and unavoidable. So we have no idea what's going to happen with Ms. Cain. I'm sure she has as much "want" as any of the other young ladies mentioned but you can have as much desire to succeed as anyone and be unable to match that desire physically. In fact....current want can work against future want.

This is even before academic and social issues are entered into the equation.

So rather than put any expectations on the young woman as too many have done with other athletes, why not just wish her well and watch?
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Re: Where does Little Mary (Cain) go now?

Postby Marlow » Sat Oct 20, 2012 11:00 am

Dutra5 wrote:A lot of what holds back teenagers, particularly girls, from advancing as they get older are physical and unavoidable.
Having watched this phenomenon up close for the past 20 years, I attribute phenom teen-age girl flame-out to several factors:

1. Evolving priorities - when boys and cars and parties and 'growing up' begin to impinge on their world, the desire to eat, drink and sleep running diminishes. Once the training begins to interfere with their real-life, and they are no longer improving, the thought of being less than she was impels them to sharply ramp back and either enter the peloton, or quit altogether.
2. The coach (often the father (which then clarifies WHY she's training so hard!) is left behind at home when she goes of to college and the incentive/relationship is broken. The college coach can't be "all in" on her like it was in HS.
3. Overtraining and watching what you eat so closely begins to takes its toll on the body and she develops an eating disorder, or anemia from iron issues, or stress fractures from calcium issues.
4. Running goes from a social endeavor to an athletic endeavor and loses its appeal.
5. Sick of all the attention and high expectations week after week. Desire to be anonymous again.
6. Actual bodily changes (hips) that change her gait.

I'm sure there are even more reasons, but the phenomenon is the rule, not the exception.
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Re: Where does Little Mary (Cain) go now?

Postby tandfman » Sat Oct 20, 2012 11:35 am

aaronk wrote:Lastly, if T&FN says to add about 17 seconds to a 1500 time to figure their mile time, that's exactly what I did.
But even if you add TWENTY seconds to her time, she still breaks (shatters!!!) Plumer's mark by FOUR seconds!!

T&FN says no such thing. They say that you add 8% to a 1500 time to get the equivalent mile time. (In other words, multiply the time by 1.08.)

But your point is well taken. That would give you a 4:31.1, which would indeed shatter Plumer's mile mark.
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Re: Where does Little Mary (Cain) go now?

Postby bruce3404 » Sat Oct 20, 2012 1:48 pm

I don't know where she's going to go, but she can COME TO OREGON and be a lot closer to her guru :D
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Re: Where does Little Mary (Cain) go now?

Postby bambam » Sat Oct 20, 2012 3:45 pm

Marlow wrote:
Dutra5 wrote:A lot of what holds back teenagers, particularly girls, from advancing as they get older are physical and unavoidable.
Having watched this phenomenon up close for the past 20 years, I attribute phenom teen-age girl flame-out to several factors:

1. Evolving priorities - when boys and cars and parties and 'growing up' begin to impinge on their world, the desire to eat, drink and sleep running diminishes. Once the training begins to interfere with their real-life, and they are no longer improving, the thought of being less than she was impels them to sharply ramp back and either enter the peloton, or quit altogether.
2. The coach (often the father (which then clarifies WHY she's training so hard!) is left behind at home when she goes of to college and the incentive/relationship is broken. The college coach can't be "all in" on her like it was in HS.
3. Overtraining and watching what you eat so closely begins to takes its toll on the body and she develops an eating disorder, or anemia from iron issues, or stress fractures from calcium issues.
4. Running goes from a social endeavor to an athletic endeavor and loses its appeal.
5. Sick of all the attention and high expectations week after week. Desire to be anonymous again.
6. Actual bodily changes (hips) that change her gait.

I'm sure there are even more reasons, but the phenomenon is the rule, not the exception.


This sounds like somebody who has actually coached high school runners.
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Re: Where does Little Mary (Cain) go now?

Postby Marlow » Sat Oct 20, 2012 3:55 pm

bambam wrote:This sounds like somebody who has actually coached high school runners.

Just thought of another that happened last year: her metabolism starts slowing down (rarely happens in teen-age boys!!) and she gains weight, which then reduces the workout quantity or quality, because it's harder now. A male coach "can't" address the issue (eat less!), because he is seen as 'advocating anorexia'. The last time this happened to me, I asked the woman PE instructor to say something about the 'excess adipose tissue', but she could never bring herself to do it, so the girl tried to compete with a 10-pound sack tied around her middle.
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Re: Where does Little Mary (Cain) go now?

Postby 26mi235 » Sat Oct 20, 2012 4:26 pm

Unfortunately, with high school-aged girls, her current PRs might be her lifetime PRs, that is just the way that it goes. Also consider that no high school girl that has won Footlocker has won the NCAA XC title.

Contrast Cain with Hollander, the Cal Poly student that almost no one had heard of two years ago and few before October. When she was Mary's age she was running 11:xx for 3200m (of course, losing 40 pounds from an overweight level can help...).

Even a number of high school boys flame out, never really making any mark later. Look at the HS record in the 800, the top miler from two years ago, ... But many more of the physiological changes in boys are on the plus side as regards running compared to girls.
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Re: Where does Little Mary (Cain) go now?

Postby Dutra5 » Sat Oct 20, 2012 5:10 pm

Marlow wrote:
Dutra5 wrote:A lot of what holds back teenagers, particularly girls, from advancing as they get older are physical and unavoidable.
Having watched this phenomenon up close for the past 20 years, I attribute phenom teen-age girl flame-out to several factors:

1. Evolving priorities - when boys and cars and parties and 'growing up' begin to impinge on their world, the desire to eat, drink and sleep running diminishes. Once the training begins to interfere with their real-life, and they are no longer improving, the thought of being less than she was impels them to sharply ramp back and either enter the peloton, or quit altogether.
2. The coach (often the father (which then clarifies WHY she's training so hard!) is left behind at home when she goes of to college and the incentive/relationship is broken. The college coach can't be "all in" on her like it was in HS.
3. Overtraining and watching what you eat so closely begins to takes its toll on the body and she develops an eating disorder, or anemia from iron issues, or stress fractures from calcium issues.
4. Running goes from a social endeavor to an athletic endeavor and loses its appeal.
5. Sick of all the attention and high expectations week after week. Desire to be anonymous again.
6. Actual bodily changes (hips) that change her gait.

I'm sure there are even more reasons, but the phenomenon is the rule, not the exception.


Good points all. The physiological issues girls face are much more negative than those that Boys face and some of the social issues are the same. This is one reason why I don't think the high schooler, no matter which gender, who flames out or doesn't improve as much as expected is poorly coached is applicable to the level some apply it.
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Re: Where does Little Mary (Cain) go now?

Postby odelltrclan » Sat Oct 20, 2012 5:39 pm

Marlow wrote:
Dutra5 wrote:A lot of what holds back teenagers, particularly girls, from advancing as they get older are physical and unavoidable.
Having watched this phenomenon up close for the past 20 years, I attribute phenom teen-age girl flame-out to several factors:

1. Evolving priorities - when boys and cars and parties and 'growing up' begin to impinge on their world, the desire to eat, drink and sleep running diminishes. Once the training begins to interfere with their real-life, and they are no longer improving, the thought of being less than she was impels them to sharply ramp back and either enter the peloton, or quit altogether.
2. The coach (often the father (which then clarifies WHY she's training so hard!) is left behind at home when she goes of to college and the incentive/relationship is broken. The college coach can't be "all in" on her like it was in HS.
3. Overtraining and watching what you eat so closely begins to takes its toll on the body and she develops an eating disorder, or anemia from iron issues, or stress fractures from calcium issues.
4. Running goes from a social endeavor to an athletic endeavor and loses its appeal.
5. Sick of all the attention and high expectations week after week. Desire to be anonymous again.
6. Actual bodily changes (hips) that change her gait.

I'm sure there are even more reasons, but the phenomenon is the rule, not the exception.


I watched a lot of this happen with my daughter, and others at their high school. I marveled a bit while closely watching the state scene, how many girls peaked as sophomores and had little improvement. Some did not even run their senior years. But a lot of the girls on my daughters teams were there more for the social aspect than being hard core running fanatics.

Unlike Aaronk, I would hope to see someone who is more into winning and competing than obsessed with times because, there may be a time real soon where the improvement is not so great and then what?

We have not seen the likes of Mary since Mary Decker, have we? Mary seemed to have a successful career. Maybe Salazar can help her from burning out by making sure she takes adequate down time, etc., things he said he never did.
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Re: Where does Little Mary (Cain) go now?

Postby Master Po » Sat Oct 20, 2012 5:59 pm

While this has developed into a discussion of Mary Cain's career prospects, I'd like to re-connect that to the concluding point of aaronk's original post:

"I think Mary's fine as she is.
If MARY controls her racing and her schedule, okay.
If Alberto takes control.....then NO!!!"

This is what puzzled me, and prompted my response -- I wasn't being skeptical about, or speculating about, Cain's career prospects. I hope for Mary Cain's success, just as I would guess everyone else posting here does. And, I have as little idea about how she will develop as everyone else does (unless someone out there really has a working crystal ball...). What I was wondering about, however, was the reasoning behind the assertion that working with Salazar, in whatever capacity, would actually impede her progress. I still don't get that. I'm wondering if aaronk, or someone who agrees with aaronk's assertion, would elaborate. Thank you! :)
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Re: Where does Little Mary (Cain) go now?

Postby Marlow » Sat Oct 20, 2012 6:20 pm

Master Po wrote:What I was wondering about, however, was the reasoning behind the assertion that working with Salazar, in whatever capacity, would actually impede her progress. I still don't get that. I'm wondering if aaronk, or someone who agrees with aaronk's assertion, would elaborate. Thank you! :)

If she were my daughter, I'd be THRILLED that Salazar has expressed an interest in her. His work with Rupp has been spot-on. He's smart enough not to impede her progress and chances are he could greatly benefit her.
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Re: Where does Little Mary (Cain) go now?

Postby aaronk » Sat Oct 20, 2012 7:24 pm

Master Po wrote:While this has developed into a discussion of Mary Cain's career prospects, I'd like to re-connect that to the concluding point of aaronk's original post:

"I think Mary's fine as she is.
If MARY controls her racing and her schedule, okay.
If Alberto takes control.....then NO!!!"

This is what puzzled me, and prompted my response -- I wasn't being skeptical about, or speculating about, Cain's career prospects. I hope for Mary Cain's success, just as I would guess everyone else posting here does. And, I have as little idea about how she will develop as everyone else does (unless someone out there really has a working crystal ball...). What I was wondering about, however, was the reasoning behind the assertion that working with Salazar, in whatever capacity, would actually impede her progress. I still don't get that. I'm wondering if aaronk, or someone who agrees with aaronk's assertion, would elaborate. Thank you! :)


As I don't pay close attention to what coaches do (or don't do) to help (or hinder) one's career, and while I can't describe in detail why, I just don't have a totally positive feeling about Salazar's coaching methods.
Yes, he's had enormous success.
But (and no, I don't know the details!!) he also seems to have been involved in some controversies as well.
His main successes seem to have been with Farah and Rupp, especially the latter.
Does ONE superstar equate to genius coaching methods??

Mary has run several VERY fast races, in finals and in heats/semis.
She's stated she wants fast times and records.
I just have doubts that Salazar, IF he takes control of her training and her career, would "allow" her to go out there, as often as possible, to RACE against the clock.
She has the potential to hold EVERY HSR between 800 and 5K (maybe even 10K), indoors and out, before she's out of HS.
Would he tell her to slow down??
Hold back??
Wait till she's in her 20's to go for records??
She's like an animal in the wild.
I'm afraid he'll want to protect her and place her in a zoo cage!!

These are my fears....again, without knowledge of WHY!!!
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Re: Where does Little Mary (Cain) go now?

Postby aaronk » Sat Oct 20, 2012 7:50 pm

As an addendum to my above post, two people on the Message Board at Let'sRun.com said the following:

That Salazar apparently visited the Cain's (in NY??) prior to the Chicago Marathon, and that they (her parents, Mary, and Alberto??) talked of the possibility of her moving to Portland, living in Salazar's house, attending Central Catholic (Is that a HS there??), and working over a long term with Salazar, a la Galen Rupp.

That she would sign with Nike as a pro, but that doing so would force her to forego her HS and Collegiate eligibility!!

She's obviously too good for HS competition (against girls).
Given some good progress, she'll be competitive at the ELITE NCAA level in 2013 and 2014, let alone against HS'ers.
And, again given good progress, she'd be competitive at the WORLD level by the time she's a frosh or soph in college.

So turning pro would be the obvious road to take....a la LeBron James, who was too good for NCAA basketball!!
My hope and prayer??
She attend school, but run professionally.
I just wish there were some way for her to do BOTH!!!
Meaning, compete in college while earning money in Europe and elsewhere!!
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Re: Where does Little Mary (Cain) go now?

Postby TN1965 » Sat Oct 20, 2012 8:01 pm

I think Rupp would have broken more HS records if Salazar had pushed him to pursue records in HS. But I wonder if he would have won an Olympic medal, had he gone that route.

As for education, Felix got a college degree while competing as a pro. So that's definitely doable. Or she can do what Galen did, train with Salazar and compete for her school.
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Re: Where does Little Mary (Cain) go now?

Postby Master Po » Sun Oct 21, 2012 4:46 am

rw.com article posted yesterday afternoon -- now linked on the home page here -- Salazar is coaching/advising Cain. Interesting reading. Focus is on Cain's biomechanics and strength at this point.

I don't know what it would mean to be a coaching genius, but his focus on helping the athlete become biomechanically sound and strong, and his focus on long-term development all seems good. While Rupp is the athlete he has worked with in a situation most analogous to Cain's, Rupp isn't Salazar's only athlete -- others are succeeding with him, too. Genius or not, Salazar seems like he knows what he's doing, and he has all the resources at his disposal that any coach would want. Seems like a good working relationship for Cain.
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Re: Where does Little Mary (Cain) go now?

Postby aaronk » Sun Oct 21, 2012 5:10 am

It's official now.
Salazar's her coach, she will attend Bronxville HS, but NOT compete for the team, will run national-type meets, and be eligible to break HS records.

But will she??

Salazar is looking "10 years down the road", and is looking to fix her biomechanics and to have her attend a training camp next summer.

She'll be racing a road 5K against elite runners the day before the NYC marathon.

But.....

will he enter her in indoor 800, 1000, 1500, 1 mile, 3000, 2 mile, and 5000 races in 2013......NOT 10 years from now??

will he enter her in outdoor invitationals....as many as her family can afford to send her to....such as Stanford, Mt SAC, Penn, Texas, Drake, Kansas, Pre, NY GP, and others...in 2013??

will he try to get her to race part of the European circuit.....against Kenyans, Ethiopians, Russians, et al??

will he have her make REPEATED attempts to get a HSR....if she falls short in her first attempt!!

She has two more years of HS track left.
Will Salazar help (or prevent!!!) her from holding EVERY SINGLE HSR.....and even break HER OWN records.....or will he TAME the wild beautiful thoroughbred she IS NOW.....saving her, while paraphrasing the Scarlett O'Hara philosophy of "Tomorrow is...another day!"??

If he stops her or slows her, I will come to HATE Salazar!!
I just hope she's not making the same mistake Alan Webb did!!

I just watched (again) the video's of her 4:11.01 race and her 4:39.28 mile at Penn.
At Penn, she stayed out of trouble by sometimes running in the THIRD lane during the first lap.
And when she took off, she ran 62.5 for her final 440, with 880 splits of about 2:25 and 2:14.

And in the WJ's, she also ran a fast last lap, around 63.
This, despite running TEN seconds faster (approx.) than at Penn (4:39 equates to about 4:21 for 1500)!!

As the saying goes.....
if it ain't broke, don't fix it!!!
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Re: Where does Little Mary (Cain) go now?

Postby gh » Sun Oct 21, 2012 5:44 am

The roadside is littered with the bodies of athletes whose coaches placed setting records (aka, running fast times) over longterm development. Kudos to Salazar for espousing a "longterm approach."

Having said that, he has also been very record conscious, and went out of his way to find Rupp a 3000 in which to set the HSR in that event.
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Re: Where does Little Mary (Cain) go now?

Postby Marlow » Sun Oct 21, 2012 6:24 am

gh wrote:The roadside is littered with the bodies of athletes whose coaches placed setting records (aka, running fast times) over longterm development. Kudos to Salazar for espousing a "longterm approach."
Having said that, he has also been very record conscious, and went out of his way to find Rupp a 3000 in which to set the HSR in that event.

The key is, of course, not every race needs to be a record attempt. Keep training throughout the season and the records can come at the end. In my first high school, Frank Shorter broke all the course records because he was just that good. His junior teammate came along the next year and broke all his course records because that was his goal. His record-breaking ended there.

Used to be that many high schoolers and even collegians, thought that every race was the most important (football mentality), and wondered why their body was so worn out by the end of the season. We decry the end of the dual meet mentality in XC and T&F, but that requires an "all-out" effort, week after week. I prefer the current 'slow build' mentality. My AD keeps asking me for my track team's win-lost record, and I just smile at him and shake my head. I tell him to ask me later how we did at District, Region and State.
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Re: Where does Little Mary (Cain) go now?

Postby Master Po » Sun Oct 21, 2012 6:38 am

gh wrote:The roadside is littered with the bodies of athletes whose coaches placed setting records (aka, running fast times) over longterm development. Kudos to Salazar for espousing a "longterm approach."

Having said that, he has also been very record conscious, and went out of his way to find Rupp a 3000 in which to set the HSR in that event.


Yes. These things absolutely need not be at odds (though we see plenty of cases along the roadside where it would seem so -- but it need not be that way).

The trajectory of Rupp's career development is an excellent example of how the focus on long-term development need not thwart short- and medium-term achievement. Setting aside for a moment all the other accomplishments and just looking at marks on all-time lists, as gh notes, Rupp set a HSR at 3k (and is still #2 on the list). Rupp also holds the HSR at 5k, and iirc is #4 on the HS list at 10k. Further along on his trajectory, he is still on the collegiate all-time top-10 lists at 3k, 5k, and 10k; and now is AR holder at 10k, along with being on the all-time list at 3k, 2m & 5k. So, long-term development has been consistent with shorter-term excellence.

Good long-term relations between excellent athletes and excellent coaches with the knowledge, experience, and resources to foster development tend to bear fruit. While it is always a challenge to find and maintain such things, the basic fact is pretty obvious. Rupp-Salazar; Lagat-Li; Larsen-Keflezighi; Mahon-Kastor, etc. Perhaps Cain now has a chance to develop as Rupp and some of these others. It's notable in the rw.com article that even at the end of her sophomore year, "team Cain" was remarking that Mary seemed to be wearing down from the racing schedule. Now -- because of her excellence -- she has a rare chance to take the best route to her success, not only as a prep, but long beyond that. I don't know if she will hold every HSR by the time she is done, but I imagine she will leave her mark on the prep all-time lists, and I hope it is on the way to greater things on larger stages.
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Re: Where does Little Mary (Cain) go now?

Postby Peter Michaelson » Sun Oct 21, 2012 6:41 am

I'm guessing the social aspect of running is not important to Mary Cain. I base this on reports that progressed from 1) compete for female team including relays to 2) refusal to compete in relays to 3) not training with male team to 4) not competing for school. I wonder if she is taking "does not play well with others" to a new level?
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Re: Where does Little Mary (Cain) go now?

Postby aaronk » Sun Oct 21, 2012 9:32 am

Peter Michaelson wrote:I'm guessing the social aspect of running is not important to Mary Cain. I base this on reports that progressed from 1) compete for female team including relays to 2) refusal to compete in relays to 3) not training with male team to 4) not competing for school. I wonder if she is taking "does not play well with others" to a new level?


When you're always at least 100 meters ahead of the pack, it's difficult to "play well with others"!!

Let them catch her first, then we'll see if she chooses to "play"!!! :P

P.S. When Cayla Hatton decided to run a fast 10K last spring, she didn't go against high schoolers.
She went against local collegiate guys. She knew they'd run around 32 minutes, so she entered, and stayed with the lead group most of the way!! Result: 33:17, 2nd fastest HS girl's 10K EVER!!

Cayla ran out of girls to challenge her. Did that mean she doesn't "play well with others" also??
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Re: Where does Little Mary (Cain) go now?

Postby aaronk » Sun Oct 21, 2012 9:55 am

Here's a way for Mary to get FOUR High School Records, but running just TWO races!!

Get her into the Boston indoor meet and Millrose.
At Millrose, have her run the one mile.
Have the meet director order official times to be taken at the 1500 meters mark enroute.
(The Pre meet did that in 2001 with Alan Webb in the race, and Voila!, TWO HSR's for the price of one. Same thing was done when Webb ran his indoor sub-4--he got the 1500 record as well!! Yes, he still holds all FOUR HSR's!!!)

At Boston, enter her in the women's 2 mile (assuming they'll have that race), and officially time the 3000 meters mark enroute. Mary should easily be able to SMASH Melody Fairchild's marks of 9:17 and 9:55!!!
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Re: Where does Little Mary (Cain) go now?

Postby KevinM » Sun Oct 21, 2012 12:39 pm

aaronk wrote:P.S. When Cayla Hatton decided to run a fast 10K last spring, she didn't go against high schoolers.
She went against local collegiate guys. She knew they'd run around 32 minutes, so she entered, and stayed with the lead group most of the way!! Result: 33:17, 2nd fastest HS girl's 10K EVER!!

Cayla ran out of girls to challenge her. Did that mean she doesn't "play well with others" also??


Or she realized there are exactly zero HS-specific 10,000m races contested?
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Re: Where does Little Mary (Cain) go now?

Postby Peter Michaelson » Sun Oct 21, 2012 1:23 pm

aaronk:

I don't understand what Cain loses by helping her team win relays. I don't understand what Cain loses by not training with the boys.
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Re: Where does Little Mary (Cain) go now?

Postby decafan » Sun Oct 21, 2012 1:48 pm

aaronk wrote:

Mary is a time-oriented runner, from all I've read.
She prefers a fast time, a PR, a record, over a medal or even a victory.
(My kind of gal!!!)


1. If you are correct with this sad statement, she will have a very disappointing career. The World Championships and Olympics define every track and field athlete's career. Only athletes who love to compete can be successful at the highest level.

2. Your attitude is shared by many and is crippling our sport. The only thing in athletics that carries any weight with Joe Public is competition. Who won, who lost, and how exciting was the battle. In championship events, the only thing that matters is who beat who; NOT the times or distances. One's ability to compete is what determines the outcomes of all the meets that matter. Every time I hear an athlete or coach say they would rather have a PR than victory, I want to throw up. It's just such an uninspired, disgusting, narcissistic, loser attitude. (I'm getting fired up as I write this)

3. This is a general statement and not directed at anyone in particular. Are we sure that foregoing the rest of her high school experience is a good thing for her human development? Most Olympic track and field athletes look back fondly on their high school years. Last time I checked, it was supposed to be fun. I don't see her senior year being anything but a premature life as a pro. It will be about records and major championships. Instead of her peer group being the class of 2013 (where she is sure to reinforce her self-image as a champion of champions) it will be post-collegiate women who have been competing at a high level for at least five more years than she has. Rupp didn't go down this road. He needed collegiate competition to become who he is today. Fun for Little Mary Cain, has just left the building.
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Re: Where does Little Mary (Cain) go now?

Postby bushop » Sun Oct 21, 2012 2:42 pm

aaronk wrote: Mary is a time-oriented runner, from all I've read.
She prefers a fast time, a PR, a record, over a medal or even a victory.
(My kind of gal!!!)

Could you share links to these articles?
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Re: Where does Little Mary (Cain) go now?

Postby ed gee » Sun Oct 21, 2012 6:00 pm

Why limit her, why not SIX high school records in TWO races?

aaronk wrote:Here's a way for Mary to get FOUR High School Records, but running just TWO races!!
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Re: Where does Little Mary (Cain) go now?

Postby Marlow » Sun Oct 21, 2012 6:15 pm

ed gee wrote:Why limit her, why not SIX high school records in TWO races?
aaronk wrote:Here's a way for Mary to get FOUR High School Records, but running just TWO races!!

Ohfergoodnessakes - just have her run a Marathon and catch her 100, 200, 400, 800, 1500, 5000, 10000 and Half-Mar splits and I'm sure they will ALL be records!! :roll:
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Re: Where does Little Mary (Cain) go now?

Postby 26mi235 » Sun Oct 21, 2012 6:18 pm

Is she even the best high school distance runner? Sarah Baxter just put in a bit of a bid for that crown running 16:00 to break the record by 10 seconds for the tough but short (2.93 miles) course.
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Re: Where does Little Mary (Cain) go now?

Postby aaronk » Sun Oct 21, 2012 6:37 pm

Marlow wrote:
ed gee wrote:Why limit her, why not SIX high school records in TWO races?
aaronk wrote:Here's a way for Mary to get FOUR High School Records, but running just TWO races!!

Ohfergoodnessakes - just have her run a Marathon and catch her 100, 200, 400, 800, 1500, 5000, 10000 and Half-Mar splits and I'm sure they will ALL be records!! :roll:


Tell me, were/are you also critical of that indoor meet in Virginia in 2001 or the Pre meet in 2001 that timed the 1500 enroute to the mile, knowing Webb was going for a record, or at least a very fast time??
Would you have preferred Webb got "only" the mile marks??

Funny, but back in the yard days, I remember Ron Clarke ran a track 10 mile WR of 47:12 or something like that.
One record book or magazine (Athletics Annual?? T&FN??) listed a whole bunch of his enroute splits, saying these were the "fastest ever" times at those distances.

And I ain't talking "normal" stuff like 6 miles.
I'm talking "7 and 3/4 miles" or "9 and 1/4 miles", and so on. There were maybe 10 or more quarter mile splits (for the distances after the six mile mark), indicating Clarke's times were "records" for those distances!! :D

Forgetting Ms Cain for the moment, let's focus on ANY great runner, at ANY level, male or female, who's shooting for either the 2 mile or 1 mile records (HS, Coll., or WR).

If he/she is gunning for a record at one of the mile distances (1 or 2), why NOT have them time him/her enroute.....just in case....so IF they break the record, they'd get a time, and maybe a record, at the metric points also, the 1500 or 3000??

Obviously, the most realistic marks available for that are NOT the WR's.
But look at the indoor marks for the HS one and two mile (and 1500/3000) for girls.
1500/mile.......4:18.9--4:38.5.
3000/2 mile.....9:17.4--9:55.92.

If Mary came by 1500 in just 4:15...4 seconds slower than her best...she could finish the mile in under 4:35.
Two records for the price of one.
What if she ran that 4:35, getting the mile record, but was NOT timed enroute??
Why waste the effort??

If she can run 4:11, she should be capable of running 9:00 (or faster) in the 3K. Extended through to 2 miles, she could probably run 9:35, about 20 secs faster than the record.

Again, if she's gonna run 9:35, why not time her 3K enroute, and give her TWO records instead of "just" the 2 mile??

Again, save the extra effort!!
It's just common sense.
All it takes are timers, or a timing mechanism, at the metric marks in those races.

And NO, it does NOT work for other distances, as you satirically (??) suggest.
I never said that!!
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Re: Where does Little Mary (Cain) go now?

Postby aaronk » Sun Oct 21, 2012 7:00 pm

bushop wrote:
aaronk wrote: Mary is a time-oriented runner, from all I've read.
She prefers a fast time, a PR, a record, over a medal or even a victory.
(My kind of gal!!!)

Could you share links to these articles?


I'm not technically proficient enough to provide a link, but I DO have a direct quote from Mary herself!!

There's an article on MaxPreps.com, by Joseph Santoliquito, dated May 22 of this year. This was written after her Penn mile of 4:39.28, which broke the Penn record for HS girls.

To Cain, the lineup of runners didn't matter. Her focus was, is, and always seems to be time.
Her largest priority is to simply beat her previous best mark. Thus far, it's been a winning strategy.
(Mary talking...) "I'm very much of a time runner, trying to get down and build my strength. If I get a fast time, and I'm third, I'm still very excited. My goal has always been to get faster, and for me, improving at the Penn Relays is what I wanted to do. Every race for me is about running faster to see what I can do. I think a lot of runners look much more at who's the best when they line up. I try to focus on getting my best time."
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Re: Where does Little Mary (Cain) go now?

Postby polevaultpower » Sun Oct 21, 2012 9:01 pm

aaronk wrote:will he enter her in outdoor invitationals....as many as her family can afford to send her to....such as Stanford, Mt SAC, Penn, Texas, Drake, Kansas, Pre, NY GP, and others...in 2013??


By not competing for a HS team, she will only be eligible to break T&FN HS Records, not NFHS records. Which is fine, those are the only ones that matter, but it's worth noting.


It can be hard for an unattached HS athlete to find outdoor meets in the spring. During the season, almost every state has a rule that basically says a high school has to compete against other high schools. Unattached athletes are excluded. Many colleges don't want HS athletes in their meets (especially outdoors) because of potential recruiting or whatever concerns. She's looking at a pretty limited outdoor season until after the prep season is over.

Of the meets above, she'd only be eligible for the elite/pro sections at most of them. It's a bit of a reach to think she could get into Pre. NY would probably find a way to get her in since she's a local star.
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Re: Where does Little Mary (Cain) go now?

Postby gh » Sun Oct 21, 2012 9:10 pm

the New York people are smart enough to add her in a heartbeat should she say she wanted to run.
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Re: Where does Little Mary (Cain) go now?

Postby Marlow » Mon Oct 22, 2012 5:13 am

26mi235 wrote:Is she even the best high school distance runner? Sarah Baxter just put in a bit of a bid for that crown running 16:00 to break the record by 10 seconds for the tough but short (2.93 miles) course.

That's not even the fastest time THIS year. It's equivalent to a 17:00 5K and Amy-Eloise Neale has run a 16:31 5K (of course, courses vary widely).
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Re: Where does Little Mary (Cain) go now?

Postby Marlow » Mon Oct 22, 2012 5:15 am

polevaultpower wrote:By not competing for a HS team, she will only be eligible to break T&FN HS Records, not NFHS records.

NFHS 'records' are totally bogus, supposing that a record can only be set in a meet they say it can.
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