Sports Science to determine the real greatest athete ever

[dbirds]

Beginning Thursday 10/18, ESPN's Sports Science will run a 4 month program where they determine the "real" greatest athlete of all-time. Not the greatest players as most lists do. You can listen to the podcast below - they are not looking at accomplishments but true athleticism.
They are choosing 5 athletes from each sport with 16 sports represented. They are having at least 1 wild card category and they don't mention women so I am assuming they are not included.
I was wondering which 5 they will choose from track. Here are my guesses (remember this is a US based survey so I'm sure at least 3 of the 5 will be Americans.
1. Carl Lewis - has to be there
2. Jim Thorpe - they have to have at least one decathlete. If Thorpe is in another category (maybe multi-sport or something) then pick between Mathias, O'Brien, Jenner and Rafer.
3. Usain Bolt - huge and popular, may not pick current athlete though
4. Sergey Bubka - he is a foreigner but pole vaulters are great all-around athletes and they have all sprinters
5. Jesse Owens - I am sure they want a historical figure although they must decide to not have 3 sprinters here.

Others to consider: if they have women, JJK is a lock. Nehemiah and Bob Hayes both played football and they surely will like the versatility. I wouldn't Edwin Moses (or Bade Didrikson if choose 2 women) out either. They could go with a current decathlete and take O'Brien or Clay (I would say Daley or Roman but once again, this is ESPN). Any other thoughts??



http://frontrow.espn.go.com/2012/10/fro ... -all-time/

[Conor Dary]

Why not a Sherpa who can do Base Camp to the summit of Everest in 20 hours without supplemental oxygen? I would like to see Usain Bolt try that.

[Marlow]

ESPN's Sports Science will run a 4 month program where they determine the "real" greatest athlete of all-time.

That may be one of the silliest things I've ever read here.
So much for "Facts, Not Fiction" as the board motto . . .

[dbirds]

Why not a Sherpa who can do Base Camp to the summit of Everest in 20 hours without supplemental oxygen? I would like to see Usain Bolt try that.

I think it's safe to say Bolt is a much better athlete than any Sherpa

Marlow, I'm skeptical myself but willing to check it out

[gh]

people, please be prepared to discover that few of our people are listed. This is ESPN after all.

[dbirds]

the way that I understand it is that each sport will have 5 athletes and fans will vote on 1 so 16 different sports will represented in the final bracket. I have to think that the track athlete that is chosen will fare pretty well. I would guess top 4 but we will see.

[Marlow]

I have to think that the track athlete that is chosen will fare pretty well. I would guess top 4 but we will see.

I wouldn't place Bolt in our Top 20 men. He's a ridiculously fast runner, but an athlete is much more than a one-note singer. I have JIm Thorpe a smidge ahead of Ashton Eaton. Carl Lewis is way up there too. Multiple Mac too. Bubka certainly.

[Daisy]

So much for "Facts, Not Fiction" as the board motto . . .

What does that have to do with ESPN? Nothing, as we know too well.

[kuha]

So great to know that this question will finally be answered, with absolute scientific precision.

[jazzcyclist]

people, please be prepared to discover that few of our people are listed. This is ESPN after all.

Don't be such a pessimist. When ESPN chose the 50 greatest athletes, they did include seven track & field athletes, including four of the top 12.

[jazzcyclist]

I have to think that the track athlete that is chosen will fare pretty well. I would guess top 4 but we will see.

I wouldn't place Bolt in our Top 20 men. He's a ridiculously fast runner, but an athlete is much more than a one-note singer. I have JIm Thorpe a smidge ahead of Ashton Eaton. Carl Lewis is way up there too. Multiple Mac too. Bubka certainly.

I'm with you. The fact that Bolt can't carry the baton with his left hand makes me doubtful of his overall athletic ability. There are four active football players who I suspect have enough athletic ability to have surpassed Ashton Eaton's WR if they had chosen track & field over football.

Tony Gonzales
Julius Peppers
Calvin Johnson
Robert Griffin III

[Marlow]

There are four active football players who I suspect have enough athletic ability to have surpassed Ashton Eaton's WR if they had chosen track & field over football.
Robert Griffin III

Can't argue with that.
I always thought Junior Seau was 9000 pts waiting to happen.

[Pego]

So great to know that this question will finally be answered, with absolute scientific precision.

Right. Can't wait for the scientific methodology.

[dbirds]

I've seen video of Bolt reverse dunking a basketball. He is also reportedly a good soccer and cricket player. Somehow I forgot Eaton - he should be included!

[jazzcyclist]

I've seen video of Bolt reverse dunking a basketball.

I would assume that anyone who is 6'5" and can run a 100 in under 11.0s can dunk a basketball pretty easily. How well can he shoot a basketball?

He is also reportedly a good soccer and cricket player.

I'd like to see him throw the javelin or high jump.

[Jackaloupe]

Why not a Sherpa who can do Base Camp to the summit of Everest in 20 hours without supplemental oxygen? I would like to see Usain Bolt try that.
I think it's safe to say Bolt is a much better athlete than any Sherpa

But not Reinhold Meisner, still the "Champ" at high altitude Mountaineering sans O2. But this whole Thread is plenty confused, what with conflating such performance-based criteria as the above and the (implied) competition record at a particular time in history. Otherwise, why would Jim Thorpe be such a popular pick. His marks were not even that competitive against single-eventers, as opposed to Eaton's LJ, HH, and even 100m and PV. I'd even venture that Eaton's HJ is closer to contemporary World Class than Thorpe's--in % terms, that is.

[jhc68]

Well, at least the final 16 will be determined by a vote of the fans, who will, no doubt, apply rigorous scientific criteria in their decisions...

[gh]

I've seen video of Bolt reverse dunking a basketball. ...!

yawn... perhaps the most overrated feat in all of athleticdom?

Saying that as proud as I am of being a 5-9 guy with tiny hands who could dunk off the right floor. Hell, when I was 40 I could still vertical from a stand in my driveway off concrete (weighing 50 pounds more than I did in high school) and grab the rim.

[jazzcyclist]

Why not a Sherpa who can do Base Camp to the summit of Everest in 20 hours without supplemental oxygen? I would like to see Usain Bolt try that.

Has anyone ever measured the VO2 Max of a Sherpa?

[lonewolf]

I will continue to assert that you can devise any scoring/ranking system you choose but there is no such thing as The Greatest Athlete Ever..only those who demonstrated superior skills in selected disciplines compared to their contemporaries.

I do not mean to disdain "ancient" T&F marks but on looking it up, I was surprised to learn that while I was not a super star, just a "useful" versatile T&F athlete, my PBs would have won 9 of the 12 men's Athletic events excluding PV (Silver), SP (Silver) and marathon (never contested) at the 1896 Olympics, held only 35 years before my birth.

Would any contemporary athlete's PBs have won ten events in the 1960 Olympics?...maybe Eaton..?

[TN1965]

Why not a Sherpa who can do Base Camp to the summit of Everest in 20 hours without supplemental oxygen? I would like to see Usain Bolt try that.

Has anyone ever measured the VO2 Max of a Sherpa?

Here is one study.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9243493

[Daisy]

Here is one study.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9243493

They have genetic adaptations to hypoxia too, presumably due to natural selection.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20466884
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22068265

[shivfan]

Paavo Nurmi, the Flying Finn?

When I read the headline, in my naivety I thought the emphasis would be on track and field athletics. Now that I realise it's ESPN, I wouldn't be surprised to see that the list is dominated by American footballers, basketball players, baseball players and golfers.

[shivfan]

I've seen video of Bolt reverse dunking a basketball. He is also reportedly a good soccer and cricket player. Somehow I forgot Eaton - he should be included!

Both Bolt and Blake are pretty decent pace bowlers in cricket as well....

I bet you won't see any cricketing pace bowling greats on that ESPN list.

Courtney Walsh was the supreme athlete, and should be ranked amongst the best.

[j-a-m]

Has anyone ever measured the VO2 Max of a Sherpa?

Talking about mountains, those rock climbers are rather good athletes.

[j-a-m]

Well, at least the final 16 will be determined by a vote of the fans, who will, no doubt, apply rigorous scientific criteria in their decisions...

Yeah, that would seem to defy the purpose.

[j-a-m]

I was wondering which 5 they will choose from track.

You can make a valid for argument for the greatest pure t&f athlete to come from any of the following: multi events, pole vault, sprints. So whoever's the greatest in those three areas should be among the top five.

[preston]

jazz, you keep bringing up this "inability to carry baton in left hand" as if it is the de facto litmus test for the pinnacle in athletic achievement (slight sarcasm). It's not, and it's irrelevant to how much of an athlete Bolt is - if in fact athletics ability can be measured by science. One other thing: Carl Lewis also changed hands.

I also don't put a hell of lot of weight in throwing a javelin or high jumping (you wouldn't, or I should say shouldn't, be surprised to know that a LOT of basketballers have tried high jumping and weren't that successful...); plus, many of the best "athletes" in the decathlon are great first day people...javelin is on day 2 along with the pole vault and discus and many of the multi event "athletes" don't usually do too well in these events.

I recently read where Bolt could bench press 308 lbs (impressive, and believeable) and squat over 700 lbs (utter horseshit); his cricket and soccer skills are also "good", as noted. But, this may not be enough to make him the greatest athlete...but it doesn't disqualify him from that title either.

And, I wouldn't discount Eaton's ability to the point that I would say that there are NFL'rs out there who could be better. They might be, but that's a tall ask. Eaton has sub-44.50, sub-10.10, sub-13.10 and 28' ability. That's great anywhere. Everywhere. But, also don't out look some of the plus 280 pounders (NFL and T&F) who have fairly impressive verticals, agility and start speed. The one thing that we (read: me) know is that the "best" athletes are certainly not long distance runners by most people's measure.

You can make a valid for argument for the greatest pure t&f athlete to come from any of the following: multi events, pole vault, sprints. So whoever's the greatest in those three areas should be among the top five.

Not and maintain any shred of credibility. There are very few pole vaulters who would qualify. MOST are a unique subset of athletes with unique skills. And, most of the multi eventers are average athletes who have worked to learn enough capability in the other events to maximize the points from the scoring system (which benefits some events more than others). The reasons why O'Brien, Thompson, Huffins, Eaton, Hardee, Clay and a few others stand out over their peers is that they have raw explosive ability that the average elite decathlete just doesn't have. It's called real speed.

[Marlow]

You can make a valid for argument for the greatest pure t&f athlete to come from any of the following: multi events, pole vault, sprints.

I see MANY abilities at play in the the multis and PV . . .. I think Houston McTear demonstrated that one can excel at the sprints first time out of the blocks (literally!). I'm not sure that's 'athleticism', per se. Speed is one asset for a great athlete. If Bolt were also a hurdler or LJer, then I'd agree he's more than just a sprinter. He might be!

[preston]

Though the unitiated might assume that hurdling is an athletic ability it's really a speed ability. There are many "hurdlers" who have been more fast than technical (see: Mayo, G. and Woodson, R.).

[Marlow]

Though the unitiated might assume that hurdling is an athletic ability it's really a speed ability.

Have you ever coached hurdling? There are many (many!!) sprinters who simply can't hurdle. I have also become similarly disappointed to find out that a great many bball talents - with prodigious dunking abilities - can't High Jump. On the other hand, almost everyone can Long Jump somewhat close to their native speed/jumping ability. Triple jump, not so much.

[jazzcyclist]

jazz, you keep bringing up this "inability to carry baton in left hand" as if it is the de facto litmus test for the pinnacle in athletic achievement (slight sarcasm). It's not, and it's irrelevant to how much of an athlete Bolt is - if in fact athletics ability can be measured by science. One other thing: Carl Lewis also changed hands.

Not being able to do something simple like carry a baton in your non-dominant hand, which most sprinters can do, does indicate a deficiency IMO, though I agree with you that it doesn't disqualify Bolt and Lewis from consideration as the greatest athlete, assuming they can make up for it in other areas. Speaking of Lewis, it's my understanding that he stunk at ball sports.

I also don't put a hell of lot of weight in throwing a javelin or high jumping (you wouldn't, or I should say shouldn't, be surprised to know that a LOT of basketballers have tried high jumping and weren't that successful...); plus, many of the best "athletes" in the decathlon are great first day people...javelin is on day 2 along with the pole vault and discus and many of the multi event "athletes" don't usually do too well in these events.

I put stock in the javelin and high jump because they require a whole different type of ability than what's required for running fast and jumping far. High jumping requires body control, and the javelin requires quickness and rhythm.

I recently read where Bolt could bench press 308 lbs (impressive, and believeable) and squat over 700 lbs (utter horseshit); his cricket and soccer skills are also "good", as noted. But, this may not be enough to make him the greatest athlete...but it doesn't disqualify him from that title either.

I don't think 308 on the bench is impressive for someone Bolt's size, and I don't know enough about cricket to give an informed opinion on an athlete's cricket ability.

And, I wouldn't discount Eaton's ability to the point that I would say that there are NFL'rs out there who could be better. They might be, but that's a tall ask. Eaton has sub-44.50, sub-10.10, sub-13.10 and 28' ability. That's great anywhere. Everywhere. But, also don't out look some of the plus 280 pounders (NFL and T&F) who have fairly impressive verticals, agility and start speed. The one thing that we (read: me) know is that the "best" athletes are certainly not long distance runners by most people's measure.

The 100 and 400 are very similar events, and the 100, 110H and long jump are somewhat similar events, but all of these events put a premium on speed/explosiveness. What about upper body strength and hand-eye coordination? Also, I rate Kenenisa Bekele as high as I rate Bolt because both the sprints and distance races require equally limited talent.

[jazzcyclist]

Though the unitiated might assume that hurdling is an athletic ability it's really a speed ability.

Have you ever coached hurdling? There are many (many!!) sprinters who simply can't hurdle. I have also become similarly disappointed to find out that a great many bball talents - with prodigious dunking abilities - can't High Jump. On the other hand, almost everyone can Long Jump somewhat close to their native speed/jumping ability. Triple jump, not so much.

Of all the jumping events, the long jump would seem to be the one that requires the least amount of body control which is whole different talent than speed/explosiveness.

[preston]

Though the unitiated might assume that hurdling is an athletic ability it's really a speed ability.

Have you ever coached hurdling? There are many (many!!) sprinters who simply can't hurdle. I have also become similarly disappointed to find out that a great many bball talents - with prodigious dunking abilities - can't High Jump. On the other hand, almost everyone can Long Jump somewhat close to their native speed/jumping ability. Triple jump, not so much.

Overall hurdling time, imo, depends more on speed - especially at the high school/collegiate level. Even some elites get away with very poor "hurdling" (Thomas, D - who is much improved; Brathwaite). I used Mayo and Woodson as "fast" hurdlers (I think both were NCAA Champs...) who couldn't "hurdle" in the classic sense. I would agree that there are many sprinters who can't hurdle but there are also a LOT of sprinters who could, if they wanted to. In fact, there is a woman that I know (well, we all know...), who owns an olympic gold medal below 400m, who has never run an in competition hurdle race of any kind, but proved that she has sub-13 ability based upon her practice times.

As for hurdling...what is more shocking to me is NOT true sprinters not being able to convert to short hurdlers, it's 400m runners who can't convert to long hurdles.

[jazzcyclist]

As for hurdling...what is more shocking to me is NOT true sprinters not being able to convert to short hurdlers, it's 400m runners who can't convert to long hurdles.

I agree with this 100%. The 400H doesn't place nearly the premium on rhythm and body control that the 100H and 110H do. Didn't Irina Privolova win an Olympic gold medal in her seventh race or something like that?