Victor Conte now only in 2nd place?


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Victor Conte now only in 2nd place?

Postby gh » Wed Oct 10, 2012 9:25 am

<<....The United States Anti-Doping Agency said Wednesday that Lance Armstrong was at the center of the most sophisticated and professional doping program in recent sports history and that it would soon release details of its findings....>>

story on front page.
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Re: Victor Conte now only in 2nd place?

Postby jazzcyclist » Wed Oct 10, 2012 9:53 am

gh wrote:<<....The United States Anti-Doping Agency said Wednesday that Lance Armstrong was at the center of the most sophisticated and professional doping program in recent sports history and that it would soon release details of its findings....>>

story on front page.

I think it's unfair to lay all of cycling's doping problems at the feet of Armstrong. If you believe Tyler Hamilton, US Postal already had a doping program going before Armstrong ever joined the team. And Michele Ferrari was doping some of Europe's most famous cyclists when Armstrong was barely a teenager before he ever toook up the sport of cycling.
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Re: Victor Conte now only in 2nd place?

Postby indigo » Wed Oct 10, 2012 10:01 am

I think it's unfair to lay all of cycling's doping problems at the feet of Armstrong. If you believe Tyler Hamilton, US Postal already had a doping program going before Armstrong ever joined the team. And Michele Ferrari was doping some of Europe's most famous cyclists when Armstrong was barely a teenager before he ever toook up the sport of cycling.[/quote]


Velo did a nice article a few months back. An attempt to determine the winner for each tour who had not previously been caught with "PEDs". My memory of the article is that only 1 race would have the winner replaced with a rider who had been on the podium.
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Re: Victor Conte now only in 2nd place?

Postby indigo » Wed Oct 10, 2012 10:04 am

indigo wrote:I think it's unfair to lay all of cycling's doping problems at the feet of Armstrong. If you believe Tyler Hamilton, US Postal already had a doping program going before Armstrong ever joined the team. And Michele Ferrari was doping some of Europe's most famous cyclists when Armstrong was barely a teenager before he ever toook up the sport of cycling.



Velo did a nice article a few months back. An attempt to determine the winner for each tour who had not previously been caught with "PEDs". My memory of the article is that only 1 race would have the winner replaced with a rider who had been on the podium.[/quote]

Sent submit too early. I believe WADA is acting responsible. It would appear that Blood doping can be quite dangerous for the unsophisticated.
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Re: Victor Conte now only in 2nd place?

Postby Conor Dary » Wed Oct 10, 2012 10:32 am

'The United States Anti-Doping Agency said'

Ain't that swell. How many basketball programs, which is an Olympic Sport, have they investigated, not to mention football? I could go on and on...

And the conclusion was that just about every cyclist they 'asked' said they doped. What a surprise!

Your taxpayer dollars at work, making sure no one cheats in France! :roll:
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Re: Victor Conte now only in 2nd place?

Postby guru » Wed Oct 10, 2012 10:51 am

Conor Dary wrote: How many basketball programs, which is an Olympic Sport, have they investigated, not to mention football? I could go on and on...




It's been said(by me) before, but the NBA is not a WADA/USADA signatory, UCI(pro cycling) is. If there were to be basketball PED issue at a WADA signatory event like the Olympics, it would be dealt with appropriately under WADA rules just like any other Olympic sport.
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Re: Victor Conte now only in 2nd place?

Postby Conor Dary » Wed Oct 10, 2012 10:59 am

While USADA can rest assure that French cycling racing will not have cheating US riders, especially ones that last won seven years ago, we have this:

    The rising toll — 7 dead, 57 ill and thousands potentially exposed — has cast a harsh light on the loose regulations that legal experts say allowed a company to sell 17,676 vials of an unsafe drug to pain clinics in 23 states. Federal health officials said Friday that all patients injected with the steroid drug made by that company, the New England Compounding Center in Framingham, Mass., which has a troubled history, needed to be tracked down immediately and informed of the danger.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/07/us/sc ... wanted=all
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Re: Victor Conte now only in 2nd place?

Postby jazzcyclist » Wed Oct 10, 2012 11:00 am

guru wrote:
Conor Dary wrote: How many basketball programs, which is an Olympic Sport, have they investigated, not to mention football? I could go on and on...




It's been said(by me) before, but the NBA is not a WADA/USADA signatory, UCI(pro cycling) is. If there were to be basketball PED issue at a WADA signatory event like the Olympics, it would be dealt with appropriately under WADA rules just like any other Olympic sport.

But WADA/USADA are supposed to have jurisdiction over all Olympic sports, which basketball and tennis are. Why the exemptions?
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Re: Victor Conte now only in 2nd place?

Postby Conor Dary » Wed Oct 10, 2012 11:00 am

guru wrote:
Conor Dary wrote: How many basketball programs, which is an Olympic Sport, have they investigated, not to mention football? I could go on and on...



If there were to be basketball PED issue at a WADA signatory event like the Olympics, it would be dealt with appropriately under WADA rules just like any other Olympic sport.


You really think so? I have a bridge to sell you...
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Re: Victor Conte now only in 2nd place?

Postby jazzcyclist » Wed Oct 10, 2012 11:12 am

FYI, FIBA is a signatory to WADA but there's still no random drug testing for FIBA athletes.
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Re: Victor Conte now only in 2nd place?

Postby guru » Wed Oct 10, 2012 4:33 pm

jazzcyclist wrote:FYI, FIBA is a signatory to WADA but there's still no random drug testing for FIBA athletes.



Thats great, but I said NBA, which is not.
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Re: Victor Conte now only in 2nd place?

Postby 26mi235 » Wed Oct 10, 2012 7:23 pm

My take is that Armstrong et al were more careful and more modest in their doping regimes, which is why no one on those teams were snared in the then-current tests. Yes, they were doping, and doing so often less than a significant subset of their competitors. They were also more careful about everything that they did, from having their own food a lot of the time, so ignoring other race objectives and other races.

By the way, if we are looking at Olympic sports that also have 'inadequate' testing, the NHL should be high on the list. Important to be big, strong, fast, with not that much concern about the effects on the body later... fits hockey to the [i]t[i] -- also football.
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Re: Victor Conte now only in 2nd place?

Postby jazzcyclist » Wed Oct 10, 2012 8:18 pm

guru wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote:FYI, FIBA is a signatory to WADA but there's still no random drug testing for FIBA athletes.



Thats great, but I said NBA, which is not.

But all NBA players who compete in the World Championships and Olympics fall under the jurisdiction of FIBA, so the NBA is irrelevant to this discussion.
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Re: Victor Conte now only in 2nd place?

Postby guru » Wed Oct 10, 2012 8:20 pm

jazzcyclist wrote:But all NBA players who compete in the World Championships and Olympics fall under the jurisdiction of FIBA...



Only during the time they are involved in those tournaments. If it was a year round purview I suspect few if any US NBA players would be involved with international teams.
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Re: Victor Conte now only in 2nd place?

Postby 26mi235 » Wed Oct 10, 2012 9:42 pm

guru wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote:But all NBA players who compete in the World Championships and Olympics fall under the jurisdiction of FIBA...



Only during the time they are involved in those tournaments. If it was a year round purview I suspect few if any US NBA players would be involved with international teams.


So if Armstrong only raced the Tour he would only be testing-relevant in July? If you apply WADA's rules, all of those players would have been eligible for testing for many months before the Games.
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Re: Victor Conte now only in 2nd place?

Postby jazzcyclist » Thu Oct 11, 2012 4:10 am

guru wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote:But all NBA players who compete in the World Championships and Olympics fall under the jurisdiction of FIBA...



Only during the time they are involved in those tournaments. If it was a year round purview I suspect few if any US NBA players would be involved with international teams.

Guru you know better than that. If all the UCI and the IAAF did was test at global championships, and not out of competition, cycling and track and field would be like the wild west when it comes to PED's.The two Greek sprinters who were banned from the 2004 Olympics would have allowed to compete because there would have been no out-of-competition tests for them to miss. After all, they weren't running on the circuit prior to the Olympics. And Michael Rasmussen, who quit racing in the months leading up to the 2007 Tour would not have been kicked out of the race because he would not have missed any out-of-competition tests either. Even college athletes like Jessica Beard, whose only non-NCAA competition was the USATF and IAAF Championships, were subject to out-of-comprtition testing, and you think it's kosher for basketball players to be exempt. Come one man.
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Re: Victor Conte now only in 2nd place?

Postby guru » Thu Oct 11, 2012 4:36 am

jazzcyclist wrote: you think it's kosher for basketball players to be exempt. Come one man.



I didnt say that at all. All I said was the NBA is not a signatory to the WADA code, and that if NBA players had to submit to year-round scrutiny like other Olympic sports few if any would play on international teams. Period.

If you're going to put words in my mouth you're welcome to pick up my mortgage and pay my taxes while you're at it.
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Re: Victor Conte now only in 2nd place?

Postby jazzcyclist » Thu Oct 11, 2012 5:54 am

guru wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote: you think it's kosher for basketball players to be exempt. Come one man.



I didnt say that at all. All I said was the NBA is not a signatory to the WADA code, and that if NBA players had to submit to year-round scrutiny like other Olympic sports few if any would play on international teams. Period.

You keep bringing up the NBA which is irrelevant. FIBA is the only relevant governing body in this discussion and FIBA falls under the WADA/USADA umbrella.

You seem to be conceding that FIBA athletes who compete in the Olympics operate under more lenient rules than IAAF and UCI athletes. Perhaps it's because the IOC and WADA/USADA are afraid of not having these athletes at the Olympics because most of them would choose not to participate if they were subject to the same testing as IAAF and UCI athletes, but the rational is irrelevant to the fairness of the situation. Here's my question to you. Do you think it's fair that FIBA athletes operate under a different set of rules than IAAF and UCI athletes? Should not WADA/USADA hold FIBA to the same standard that it holds the IAAF and the UCI? Or is this double standard okay with you?
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Re: Victor Conte now only in 2nd place?

Postby preston » Thu Oct 11, 2012 6:29 am

jazzcyclist wrote:
guru wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote: you think it's kosher for basketball players to be exempt. Come one man.



I didnt say that at all. All I said was the NBA is not a signatory to the WADA code, and that if NBA players had to submit to year-round scrutiny like other Olympic sports few if any would play on international teams. Period.

You keep bringing up the NBA which is irrelevant. FIBA is the only relevant governing body in this discussion and FIBA falls under the WADA/USADA umbrella.

You seem to be conceding that FIBA athletes who compete in the Olympics operate under more lenient rules than IAAF and UCI athletes. Perhaps it's because the IOC and WADA/USADA are afraid of not having these athletes at the Olympics because most of them would choose not to participate if they were subject to the same testing as IAAF and UCI athletes, but the rational is irrelevant to the fairness of the situation. Here's my question to you. Do you think it's fair that FIBA athletes operate under a different set of rules than IAAF and UCI athletes? Should not WADA/USADA hold FIBA to the same standard that it holds the IAAF and the UCI? Or is this double standard okay with you?

jazz, what you're saying seems logical but I think guru is right. Though US Basketball is under the aegis of FIBA, I think there is an agreement for the NBA, and NHL for winter champs, not to have to submit to WADA. This is because of the greed of the IOC/FIBA wanting the "best athletes" for their champs.
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Re: Victor Conte now only in 2nd place?

Postby preston » Thu Oct 11, 2012 6:33 am

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Sta ... ing_Agency

In October 1999, the USOC created the USADA to begin operation in October 2000. USADA's status and alleged independence from the USOC contrasts the norm in the United States in which most professional sport organizations (MLB, NFL, NBA, NHL) manage the anti-doping aspects of their sports. As a result of USADA's ongoing multi-year contracts with the USOC and the sport national governing bodies (USA Track & Field, USA Cycling, USA Swimming, US Soccer, etc.) the agency is responsible for managing the anti-doping programs including testing and results management for each sport's athletes and events throughout the year. Despite its name and status as the country's official anti doping organization, USADA is a private organization and not subject to government oversight.

While the WADA code has been accepted by numerous sport organizations, leagues, and federations around the world, the overwhelming majority of U.S. professional sport leagues (NFL, MLB, NHL, NBA, MLS); state athletic federations (boxing, UFC); as well as the National Collegiate Athletic Association (NCAA) are not signatories of the WADA Code and are often criticized for having less-effective anti-doping programs in comparison to the Olympic, Paralympic and Pan-American movements, as well as those professional sport programs in other countries that have become signatories of the WADA Code.
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Re: Victor Conte now only in 2nd place?

Postby jazzcyclist » Thu Oct 11, 2012 6:36 am

preston wrote: I think there is an agreement for the NBA, and NHL for winter champs, not to have to submit to WADA. This is because of the greed of the IOC/FIBA wanting the "best athletes" for their champs.

Bingo! That's what I was getting at all along.
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Re: Victor Conte now only in 2nd place?

Postby Conor Dary » Thu Oct 11, 2012 7:01 am

jazzcyclist wrote:
preston wrote: I think there is an agreement for the NBA, and NHL for winter champs, not to have to submit to WADA. This is because of the greed of the IOC/FIBA wanting the "best athletes" for their champs.

Bingo! That's what I was getting at all along.


Exactly.
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Re: Victor Conte now only in 2nd place?

Postby jazzcyclist » Thu Oct 11, 2012 9:54 am

Well, at least preston, Conor Dary and I have share a common understanding of the situation. What say you guru? Do you think it's fair that WADA/USADA allows FIBA and IIHL athletes to operate under a different set of rules than IAAF and UCI athletes because of greed?
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Re: Victor Conte now only in 2nd place?

Postby guru » Thu Oct 11, 2012 10:32 am

jazzcyclist wrote:Well, at least preston, Conor Dary and I have share a common understanding of the situation. What say you guru?



What the hell are you talking about? That's EXACTLY what I said - Without the exemption there's no WAY the NBA players would be involved with international basketball. Not necessarily because they dope, but because they don't want/need to be bothered with telling USADA where they will be at all times for unannounced tests.


Perhaps from now on I'll post translation for all 6,900 world languages so there will be no misunderstandings...
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Re: Victor Conte now only in 2nd place?

Postby jazzcyclist » Thu Oct 11, 2012 10:53 am

guru wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote:Well, at least preston, Conor Dary and I have share a common understanding of the situation. What say you guru?



What the hell are you talking about? That's EXACTLY what I said - Without the exemption there's no WAY the NBA players would be involved with international basketball. Not necessarily because they dope, but because they don't want/need to be bothered with telling USADA where they will be at all times for unannounced tests.


Perhaps from now on I'll post translation for all 6,900 world languages so there will be no misunderstandings...

You still haven't answered the question. Do you agree with the exemption? Do you think its fair?

EDIT: There's no reason to get testy. You seem to be taking this personally. Why?
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Re: Victor Conte now only in 2nd place?

Postby gibson » Mon Oct 22, 2012 7:05 am

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9iWIhMG4 ... e=youtu.be

the real world... conte on joe rogan.
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Re: Victor Conte now only in 2nd place?

Postby Dave » Mon Oct 22, 2012 2:55 pm

jazzcyclist wrote:
guru wrote:
Conor Dary wrote: How many basketball programs, which is an Olympic Sport, have they investigated, not to mention football? I could go on and on...




It's been said(by me) before, but the NBA is not a WADA/USADA signatory, UCI(pro cycling) is. If there were to be basketball PED issue at a WADA signatory event like the Olympics, it would be dealt with appropriately under WADA rules just like any other Olympic sport.

But WADA/USADA are supposed to have jurisdiction over all Olympic sports, which basketball and tennis are. Why the exemptions?


So, I ask this with some fear and trepedation, are the Olympic basketball players tested? Are their rules the same as other Olympic sport athletes? Does that inhibit players from trying out for the Olympic basket ball teams?

What happened with baseball? I know baseball is no longer an Olympic sport, but there aren't many clean records in the game that were created in the last 20 years. Did doping impact who tried out?
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