The must-see event in your state


Main message board: for the discussion of topical track & field items only.

The must-see event in your state

Postby Mighty Favog » Sun Sep 30, 2012 4:20 pm

What is the best annual track/cross/road spectator event in your state?

For example, in Oregon it's probably the Prefontaine Classic; in Massachusetts it's probably the Boston Marathon; in Pennsylvania it's undoubtedly the Penn Relays. In Texas you could argue as to whether it's the Texas Relays or the UIL Championships, and in New York you've got a lot to argue about.

Here in Ohio the pickings are slim besides the annual state high school championships, which fills up Jesse Owens Stadium's 10,000 seats and then some (and used to draw even more).

It need not be a big-time event so much as fun to attend. Any thoughts on your locale?
Mighty Favog
 
Posts: 1789
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am

Re: The must-see event in your state

Postby Halfmiler2 » Sun Sep 30, 2012 4:39 pm

In New Jersey, three events come to mind depending on what branch of the sport you are involved:

My personal favorite is the final day of the IC4A/ECAC Outdoor Championships at Princeton in May. For those of you in other parts of the country who do not know its history, the IC4A is the oldest track & field meet in the country dating back to the 1870s. It was the national collegiate championship in the days before there was an NCAA and now serves as an Eastern championsips for mostly D-1 colleges from Maine to North Carolina - sort of a super conference meet. The Sunday finals on the track are from noon to about 3 PM which is just about the right length for a spectator event. For seniors not going on to the NCAA, it is often their final college race. For those going to NCAA regionals, it is the final tune-up/qualifier.

The high school State Meet Of Champions (SMOC) is a neat event as well. It brings the top finishers of all the Groups to an all-star meet on a weekday evening at the end of the season. I enjoy our Bergen County Meet of Champions (BMOC) as well - it is also on a weekday evening and a great spectator event.

Top road race is probably the Spring Lake 5 mile which draws about 5,000 runners on Memorial Day weekend to the shore.
Last edited by Halfmiler2 on Tue Oct 02, 2012 1:58 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Halfmiler2
 
Posts: 1641
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am

Re: The must-see event in your state

Postby Mighty Favog » Sun Sep 30, 2012 4:58 pm

Thanks.

Adding that to some of the obvious choices, we have...

IA Drake Relays
IL Chicago Marathon
MA Boston Marathon
NJ IC4A/ECAC Championships
OH OHSAA Championships
OR Prefontaine Classic
PA Penn Relays
TX Texas Relays or UIL Championships

Keep 'em coming.
Mighty Favog
 
Posts: 1789
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am

Re: The must-see event in your state

Postby Cooter Brown » Mon Oct 01, 2012 4:40 am

TX Relays is a billion times better than the UIL State Champs, IMO.
Cooter Brown
 
Posts: 2056
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: Austin

Re: The must-see event in your state

Postby nevetsllim » Mon Oct 01, 2012 5:17 am

I'll go for my county (as I don't live in the States) and in Devon, we have the Plymouth half-marathon. It's one of the bigger half-marathons in the UK and Aselefech Mergia was the winner in 2007 just when she was starting out (she won in 74:50 and went on to win a medal at the World Half-Marathon Champs the following year before moving up to the marathon). The Exeter half-marathon used to be a fairly prestigious race and I think the women's course record is still held by Delilah Asiago at 69:05 from 1991 (Liz McColgan was second in 69:15).
nevetsllim
 
Posts: 6261
Joined: Sat Oct 15, 2005 2:54 am

Re: The must-see event in your state

Postby az2004 » Mon Oct 01, 2012 5:52 am

i'm in PA and the relays are great although the distance run imseptember is always a quality race
az2004
 
Posts: 3131
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am

Re: The must-see event in your state

Postby tandfman » Mon Oct 01, 2012 6:12 am

az2004 wrote:i'm in PA and the relays are great although the distance run imseptember is always a quality race

There are probably a few other states in which your choice will depend on whether you prefer track meets or road races. In New York, for instance, you have the Diamond League meet at Icahn stadium and also the New York City Marathon.

Because the major national championships (USATF and NCAA) as well as the NCAA Regionals and almost all of the major conference meets have no fixed location, the biggest meet held annually in each state is likely to be the state HS championships. But in some, there are major road races that could be #1. I'm thinking of events like Peachtree (GA) and Beach to Beacon (ME).
tandfman
 
Posts: 15043
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:31 am

Re: The must-see event in your state

Postby Mighty Favog » Mon Oct 01, 2012 6:18 am

It doesn't have to be the best-attended or highest level of competition. For example, Army-Navy is lightly attended but an intense and meaningful competition that I very much would like to see.
Mighty Favog
 
Posts: 1789
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am

Re: The must-see event in your state

Postby tandfman » Mon Oct 01, 2012 6:48 am

But doesn't Army-Navy alternate sites? I thought the question presumed that the meet or race was an annual event in the state.

But the Army-Navy thought raises an interesting question--are there any serious intra-state dual meets left? Washington-Washington State? Kansas-Kansas State? There are quite a few states in which meets like that would be a lot of fun to watch, but how many of them exist?
tandfman
 
Posts: 15043
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:31 am

Re: The must-see event in your state

Postby Mighty Favog » Mon Oct 01, 2012 7:57 am

Well, Army-Navy was just an example, but you could make a case for it belonging on this list. Army-Navy has three meets (XC/indoor/outdoor) so both Annapolis and West Point have at least one a year. Ohio State vs Michigan does indoor only, but splits the men and the women so that both meets are taking place simultaneously, one each in Ann Arbor and Columbus.

In-state dual meet rivalries that I know of...
USC-UCLA
Stanford-Cal (aka The Big Meet)
Washington-Washington State
Arizona-Arizona State-Northern Arizona
Montana-Montana State
Indiana-Purdue
Indiana State-Purdue
Lafayette-Lehigh
the four-way Battle of Beantown
Sacramento State-UC Davis (aka The Causeway Classic)
and, if you're willing to expand your definition of a state, then the Dakota Duals (ND-SD-SDSt)

It may take a little while, but I think Oregon-Oregon State will eventually come back.
Mighty Favog
 
Posts: 1789
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am

Re: The must-see event in your state

Postby aaronk » Mon Oct 01, 2012 9:25 am

Well, the "Ski to Sea" race held each spring in Whatcom County WA isn't all running, but it does include a running leg as part of its route from Mt Baker to the Fairhaven area of Bellingham.

Its legs are cross-country ski, downhill ski, running, road bike, canoe, mountain bike, and kayak..

It gets all kinds of teams (men, women, age groups, mixed, corporate, etc etc) from all over, and is well-publicized (covered on radio and TV), and has a huge fan base, and crowd to watch the race.
The field is limited to 500 teams!!
The 2013 race is on May 26.

WA state also has the Bloomsday Race in the eastern part of the state.
It attracts many thousands of runners.
The 2013 race is on May 5.
aaronk
 
Posts: 3361
Joined: Sun May 06, 2012 9:39 am

Re: The must-see event in your state

Postby polevaultpower » Mon Oct 01, 2012 10:25 am

For WA, in track, the indoor meets at Dempsey draw a hearty crowd from the track fanatic base. None of the traditional outdoor meets have much draw, the big school state meet probably has the most spectators. I'll go out on a limb and guess that my beach vaults get the most non-track-fan eyes on them, we have thousands of spectators throughout the day at each one.
polevaultpower
 
Posts: 4533
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: A Temperate Island

Re: The must-see event in your state

Postby dukehjsteve » Mon Oct 01, 2012 12:09 pm

For Indiana, limited to held-every-year events, it's must-see for Indiana State HS Champs at IU in Bloomington. Must-compete-in is the Indianapolis Mini-Marathon, reputed to be the country's largest half marathon.
dukehjsteve
 
Posts: 6057
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: Fishers, IN

Re: The must-see event in your state

Postby Master Po » Mon Oct 01, 2012 12:43 pm

dukehjsteve wrote:For Indiana, limited to held-every-year events, it's must-see for Indiana State HS Champs at IU in Bloomington. Must-compete-in is the Indianapolis Mini-Marathon, reputed to be the country's largest half marathon.


I'm no longer an IN resident, but I second this endorsement of what I take to be a description of the Indiana State HS XC championships. Saw that meet a few times, and -- with no investment in any particular school or athlete -- I can say that it's a great event. I think it's one of the the few state championships in any sport that still has no divisional/small school-large school distinctions. Don't want to get into a discussion of that issue, because I think those work well in many ways, but at least for this meet, the "one championship" factor really makes it exciting, imo. (And, the XC course in Bloomington is a great venue.)
Last edited by Master Po on Mon Oct 01, 2012 12:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Master Po
 
Posts: 2640
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: north coast USA

Re: The must-see event in your state

Postby Master Po » Mon Oct 01, 2012 12:47 pm

And for Ohio, I would second Mighty Favog's assertion of the state HS championships for T&F. For XC, I think the collegiate All-Ohio Championship meet is really good -- for whatever reason, more exciting to me than the state HS XC meet.
Master Po
 
Posts: 2640
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: north coast USA

Re: The must-see event in your state

Postby 26mi235 » Mon Oct 01, 2012 1:59 pm

Wisconsin it might now be the Wisconsin/adidas cross country race. Last year it have about 20 of the ranked teams for both men and women and was probably the biggest race outside of the NCAA meet.

Other possibilities are:
1) State Meet [XC and T&F]
2) Grandma's Marathon, but more of a Duluth race than Superior;
3) Milwaukee's Lakefront Marathon
4) Crazy Legs although it is a big race without a huge audience watching.

A) it is not an annual event in one locale and the crowds were not huge, but the best event in the state last year might have been the Big Ten T&F meet.
26mi235
 
Posts: 16334
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: Madison, WI

Re: The must-see event in your state

Postby tandfman » Mon Oct 01, 2012 2:03 pm

dukehjsteve wrote:For Indiana, limited to held-every-year events, it's must-see for Indiana State HS Champs at IU in Bloomington. Must-compete-in is the Indianapolis Mini-Marathon, reputed to be the country's largest half marathon.

According to Running USA, it's the 2nd largest--Las Vegas has the largest. (Link to report on largest road races now in front page headline section.)
tandfman
 
Posts: 15043
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:31 am

Re: The must-see event in your state

Postby dukehjsteve » Mon Oct 01, 2012 2:52 pm

Master Po wrote:
dukehjsteve wrote:For Indiana, limited to held-every-year events, it's must-see for Indiana State HS Champs at IU in Bloomington. Must-compete-in is the Indianapolis Mini-Marathon, reputed to be the country's largest half marathon.


I'm no longer an IN resident, but I second this endorsement of what I take to be a description of the Indiana State HS XC championships. Saw that meet a few times, and -- with no investment in any particular school or athlete -- I can say that it's a great event. I think it's one of the the few state championships in any sport that still has no divisional/small school-large school distinctions. Don't want to get into a discussion of that issue, because I think those work well in many ways, but at least for this meet, the "one championship" factor really makes it exciting, imo. (And, the XC course in Bloomington is a great venue.)



Nope, I'm talking TRACK...... but it is one-class too.
dukehjsteve
 
Posts: 6057
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: Fishers, IN

Re: The must-see event in your state

Postby Mighty Favog » Mon Oct 01, 2012 3:17 pm

I'm not a Michigan resident but, like Sarah Palin, I can see the Great Satan from my house (and if you think that moniker is hyperbole, well, you don't live here). The pickings are slim in Ohio but they're really slim in Michigan. Unless Sherman sets the Wayback Machine for 1965-1980 so we can go to the NCAA Indoor at Cobo Hall (or even 1938-64 for NCAA XC), I'm thinking the state cross country championships at Michigan International Speedway are the best thing to see. Michigan's eight(!) divisions, four each in the upper and lower peninsulas, are scattered at eight sites for outdoor track, but all four LP championships are on the same day at MIS.

Indiana was getting darn close to making the NCAA Cross Country Championships an annual event, with nine of the last ten at Terre Haute. Going to that meet with one of my old college teammates is the highlight of the fall.

The All-Ohio Cross Country Championships are good but I miss the days when every team in the state came and it really meant something. That was the first (and only) college meet for which I made the varsity team and I ran poorly--and my coach refused to talk to me for a week. To Sid Sink, the only greater sin than running poorly at All-Ohio was to run poorly in the XC dual against archrival Miami; Mel Brodt taught Sid that you're not a good Bowling Green man unless you hate Miami with an all-consuming passion. Mel also thought winning All-Ohio was one of the three most important XC meets his teams could win, along with the MAC and the CCC.

I would not have thought of the Wisconsin XC invitational but it makes perfect sense. I know that the team takes great pride in its cross country tradition, the course is top-notch for both athletes and spectators, and it seems that the Badgers have about as good of fan support as you're going to get for college cross country. That I wouldn't have thought of it is exactly why I'm asking. Follow-up: are the WIAC Championships a big deal or no?

So, to recap, here's what we've got...
IA Drake Relays
IL Chicago Marathon
IN IHSAA Championships (track or XC, pick 'em)
MA Boston Marathon
MD any part of the Army-Navy Star Meet series (XC/ID/OD)
NJ IC4A/ECAC Championships
OH OHSAA Championships
OR Prefontaine Classic
PA Penn Relays
TX Texas Relays
WA Husky Classic or other indoor meet -- maybe Brooks HS invitational?
WI Wisconsin adidas Invitational
Mighty Favog
 
Posts: 1789
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am

Re: The must-see event in your state

Postby Master Po » Mon Oct 01, 2012 3:48 pm

dukehjsteve wrote:
Master Po wrote:
dukehjsteve wrote:For Indiana, limited to held-every-year events, it's must-see for Indiana State HS Champs at IU in Bloomington. Must-compete-in is the Indianapolis Mini-Marathon, reputed to be the country's largest half marathon.


I'm no longer an IN resident, but I second this endorsement of what I take to be a description of the Indiana State HS XC championships. Saw that meet a few times, and -- with no investment in any particular school or athlete -- I can say that it's a great event. I think it's one of the the few state championships in any sport that still has no divisional/small school-large school distinctions. Don't want to get into a discussion of that issue, because I think those work well in many ways, but at least for this meet, the "one championship" factor really makes it exciting, imo. (And, the XC course in Bloomington is a great venue.)



Nope, I'm talking TRACK...... but it is one-class too.


Thanks for clarifying that for me -- both are great events, and I think the one-class aspect is part of their appeal. I guess I defaulted to the XC championships because I saw them several times -- more frequently than the T&F Ch meet.
Master Po
 
Posts: 2640
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: north coast USA

Re: The must-see event in your state

Postby Fortis4Eva » Mon Oct 01, 2012 5:09 pm

Boys and Girls Championship in Kingston Jamaica ....... nothing like 2 points separating the 2 or 3 top schools (usually on the boys side) going into the final event the 4x400 relay. A close 2nd for me is the Penn Relays.
Fortis4Eva
 
Posts: 404
Joined: Fri Apr 20, 2007 9:26 am
Location: Atlanta by way of Kingston Jamaica

Re: The must-see event in your state

Postby lonewolf » Mon Oct 01, 2012 9:01 pm

Oklahoma: my pick for most interesting meet is the HS post-State Meet of Champions..top two from each of six classes.. a fast moving three hour evening meet a week after State.
lonewolf
 
Posts: 8816
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: Indian Territory

Re: The must-see event in your state

Postby JRM » Tue Oct 02, 2012 7:48 am

For California, I'd say it's probably the Mt. SAC Relays. It's been called a mini-World Championships, where you can literally mingle with the athletes off the track.

Although back in the day, the Modesto Relays attracted a similar cailbre crowd.
JRM
 
Posts: 2625
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:31 am
Location: Woodland Hills, CA

Re: The must-see event in your state

Postby bad hammy » Tue Oct 02, 2012 9:14 am

JRM wrote:For California, I'd say it's probably the Mt. SAC Relays. It's been called a mini-World Championships, where you can literally mingle with the athletes off the track.

Although back in the day, the Modesto Relays attracted a similar cailbre crowd.

I'd rather go to the CA high school state meet any day . . .
bad hammy
 
Posts: 10881
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am

Re: The must-see event in your state

Postby tandfman » Tue Oct 02, 2012 10:11 am

I'm not a Californian, and I've never been to their state HS meet, but from everything I've heard, it would be the one I'd choose. (And I have been to both Mt. SAC and Modesto.)
tandfman
 
Posts: 15043
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:31 am

Re: The must-see event in your state

Postby Mighty Favog » Tue Oct 02, 2012 10:17 am

The decline of track as a spectator sport in California mirrors its decline in the country as a whole. For this purpose I'm going to say it's too big to be considered a single state.

IA Drake Relays
IL Chicago Marathon
IN IHSAA Championships (track or XC, pick 'em)
MA Boston Marathon
MD any part of the Army-Navy Star Meet series (XC/ID/OD)
MI MHSAA Cross Country Championships
NJ IC4A/ECAC Championships
NorCal CIS Championships
OH OHSAA Championships
OK Meet of Champions
OR Prefontaine Classic
PA Penn Relays
SoCal Mt. SAC Relays
TX Texas Relays
WA Husky Classic
WI Wisconsin adidas Invitational
Mighty Favog
 
Posts: 1789
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am

Re: The must-see event in your state

Postby dukehjsteve » Tue Oct 02, 2012 10:34 am

And how sad it is that for New York, we cannot say:

Millrose Games
dukehjsteve
 
Posts: 6057
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: Fishers, IN

Re: The must-see event in your state

Postby DrJay » Tue Oct 02, 2012 11:07 am

Here in Colorado it's......uhh....well....yeah.....then there's......

Well, we have to entertain ourselves here. Run, bike, hike, camp, ski, climb.

I bet watching Jenny Simpson do an interval workout would be pretty good.
DrJay
 
Posts: 5485
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: Woodland Park, CO

Re: The must-see event in your state

Postby no one » Tue Oct 02, 2012 12:10 pm

In response to hammy;

I can't speak to 'present day', but,bback in the day ... the CIF-SS championship meet was much more exciting than the state meet. The marks were better, the competition more intense, the crowd much more into the meet ... the state meet, for the most part, was a bit of a post script. There were some Nor Cal v So Cal showdowns as well as isolated CIF v LA City showdowns. Am I wrong here? Modesto and Fresno were indeed big time.
no one
 
Posts: 1611
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am

Re: The must-see event in your state

Postby tandfman » Tue Oct 02, 2012 12:19 pm

DrJay wrote:Here in Colorado it's......uhh....well....yeah.....then there's......

Well, we have to entertain ourselves here. Run, bike, hike, camp, ski, climb.

I bet watching Jenny Simpson do an interval workout would be pretty good.

Bolder Boulder?
tandfman
 
Posts: 15043
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:31 am

Re: The must-see event in your state

Postby Conor Dary » Tue Oct 02, 2012 12:36 pm

tandfman wrote:
DrJay wrote:Here in Colorado it's......uhh....well....yeah.....then there's......

Well, we have to entertain ourselves here. Run, bike, hike, camp, ski, climb.

I bet watching Jenny Simpson do an interval workout would be pretty good.

Bolder Boulder?


I would have to go with that. Potts Indoor was once a decent meet years ago.
Conor Dary
 
Posts: 6297
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: कनोर दारी in Ronald MacDonald's Home Town, and once a Duck always a Duck.

Re: The must-see event in your state

Postby j-a-m » Tue Oct 02, 2012 12:41 pm

Cooter Brown wrote:TX Relays is a billion times better than the UIL State Champs, IMO.

While I'd use a smaller order of magnitude, I do agree that Texas Relays are much better.
j-a-m
 
Posts: 2449
Joined: Thu May 24, 2012 8:21 pm

Re: The must-see event in your state

Postby DrJay » Tue Oct 02, 2012 1:35 pm

CU's home XC meet, the Rocky Mountain Shootout, can be good. Goucher, Ritz, Torres, Simpson (nee Barringer) etc over the years. DII powers Adams St and Western St (CO) usually are there and in the mix.
DrJay
 
Posts: 5485
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: Woodland Park, CO

Re: The must-see event in your state

Postby Halfmiler2 » Tue Oct 02, 2012 2:00 pm

dukehjsteve wrote:And how sad it is that for New York, we cannot say:

Millrose Games


It is obviously the NYC Marathon for New York these days.
Halfmiler2
 
Posts: 1641
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am

Re: The must-see event in your state

Postby Halfmiler2 » Tue Oct 02, 2012 2:05 pm

Someone who is a Delaware resident can correct me if I am wrong, but since my brother went to school there, I know a bit about Delaware. Given that the University of Delaware dropped men's track & field, I'd say the Caesar Rodney Half Marathon (named for the Revolutionary War Hero) probably now gets the nod for the Diamond State.

I'd also think that the Marine Corps Marathon gets the obvious nod for Washington, D.C. since there aren't any really big track & field meets in the city to compete with the marathon.
Halfmiler2
 
Posts: 1641
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am

Re: The must-see event in your state

Postby gh » Tue Oct 02, 2012 2:35 pm

If you're speaking of events which the actual residents of that state would be most likely to see, gotta suspect that it's the State Meet just about everywhere, and that even includes Pennsylvania. dj, thoughts?
gh
 
Posts: 46335
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:31 am
Location: firmly at Arya's side!

Re: The must-see event in your state

Postby bad hammy » Tue Oct 02, 2012 4:26 pm

no one wrote:In response to hammy;

I can't speak to 'present day', but,bback in the day ... the CIF-SS championship meet was much more exciting than the state meet. The marks were better, the competition more intense, the crowd much more into the meet ... the state meet, for the most part, was a bit of a post script. There were some Nor Cal v So Cal showdowns as well as isolated CIF v LA City showdowns. Am I wrong here? Modesto and Fresno were indeed big time.

As a norcal boy I never got too excited over the north/south aspect. Southern section is certainly an excellent meet. Both have the same reasons for excellence: a huge pool of quality athletes (no classifications) all going for one prize.
bad hammy
 
Posts: 10881
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am

Re: The must-see event in your state

Postby dj » Tue Oct 02, 2012 5:15 pm

gh wrote:If you're speaking of events which the actual residents of that state would be most likely to see, gotta suspect that it's the State Meet just about everywhere, and that even includes Pennsylvania. dj, thoughts?


I agree with your premise, but it's not true for Pennsylvania unless you split the state east and west, which really is the way the state thinks of itself. The meet to see if you're from the western end would be the WPIAL, a 19th century suburban Pittsburgh meet which is now the District 7 meet qualifying to the state. Easterners would still claim Penn Relays is the meet to go to as it draws from so many states and countries.
dj
 
Posts: 6200
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:31 am

Re: The must-see event in your state

Postby tandfman » Tue Oct 02, 2012 7:18 pm

Halfmiler2 wrote:
dukehjsteve wrote:And how sad it is that for New York, we cannot say:

Millrose Games

It is obviously the NYC Marathon for New York these days.

The NYCM is the best "attended", if you count people standing on a street corner, paying nothing, and watching runners go by once. If you're a track fan, the must-see event is the Diamond League meet at Icahn Stadium.
tandfman
 
Posts: 15043
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:31 am


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: aaronk, Bing [Bot], Google [Bot] and 8 guests