Brave New World is here


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Postby 26mi235 » Wed Nov 19, 2008 1:47 pm

For those thinking this is around the corner, the experiments that have occurred to date have had to be canceled when one of the subjects died. This type of thing will be a bit risky, as well as likely being illegal. The talented guys will likely not want to take a chance doing this stuff and losing their license and funding. These guys make a lot of money and it will NOT be a big incentive to cheat here. It is my impression (Daisy?) that the gene stuff will be easier to do when it is putting in the thing that is supposed to be there rather than altering something that is right so that it will be 'better'.
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Postby Daisy » Thu Nov 20, 2008 8:47 am

26mi235 wrote:It is my impression that the gene stuff will be easier to do when it is putting in the thing that is supposed to be there rather than altering something that is right so that it will be 'better'.


Exactly, it is hard to overide the bodies homeostatic control mechanisms and when we do we often end up with undesirable (and unpredicatable) outcomes. These gene replacement technologies are usually developed with the goal of repairing natural problems (mutations) that are pushing the system into a disease state. Cystic fibrosis is probably the best example. If a functional cystic fibrosis gene can be incorporated into cells that need its function it pushes the cells back to a normal situation. In contrast athlete who want to use gene doping are looking to push their body and cells away from a normal state.

An example of pushing cells away from a normal state is seen with telomeres (the DNA sequence at the ends of chromosomes) and the hopes of manipulating their length to increase longevity. Every time a cell divides the teleomeres get shorter and it has been observed that people who age prematurely have shorter telomeres. Heart disease and other aging related diseases are also related to shorter telomeres. Logic dictates that keeping them longer will improve our condition with respect to aging.

There is an enzyme called telomerase that can increase the length of telomeres. In fact, this is important for producing sperm and eggs that have longer telomeres. If this enzyme did not exist our chromosomes would get smaller each generation leading to our extinction as a species. Some saw telomerase as having a fountain of youth potential but when it is over expressed, thus giving us longer telomeres and combating the aging process, it also was found to cause cancer.
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Postby Marlow » Thu Nov 20, 2008 10:50 am

Daisy wrote:Some saw telomerase as having a fountain of youth potential but when it is over expressed, thus giving us longer telomeres and combating the aging process, it also was found to cause cancer.

Details, details, details. Known cycle of cutting-edge medicine.

1. Invent cool new therapy that 'fixes' something.
2. Find that #1 causes side effects just as bad or worse that original ailment.
3. Invent cool new thing that fixes side effect.
4. Repeat #2.
5. Repeat #3
6. repeat ad infinitum

Added benefit: each new step increases medical industry revenue.
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Postby Daisy » Thu Nov 20, 2008 11:52 am

Marlow wrote:1. Invent cool new therapy that 'fixes' something.
2. Find that #1 causes side effects just as bad or worse that original ailment.
3. Invent cool new thing that fixes side effect.
4. Repeat #2.
5. Repeat #3
6. repeat ad infinitum


Sounds like a Heath Robinson approach to medicine.
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Postby Pego » Thu Nov 20, 2008 3:58 pm

Daisy wrote:
Marlow wrote:1. Invent cool new therapy that 'fixes' something.
2. Find that #1 causes side effects just as bad or worse that original ailment.
3. Invent cool new thing that fixes side effect.
4. Repeat #2.
5. Repeat #3
6. repeat ad infinitum


Sounds like a Heath Robinson approach to medicine.


Marlow, this whole thing reminds me of sci-fi movies, where people continue to function inside an active volcanos, cars running over flowing lava, light sabers, Bond having a car that just becomes completely invisible etc.
While being fun to watch and talk about, it is impossible to achieve.
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Postby Marlow » Fri Jan 16, 2009 3:37 pm

If gene-doping is so sci-fi why is WADA spending time and effort in ways to detect it. This statement from front page:

May explained that through gene doping an athlete could manipulate the body to grow bigger muscles or help them develop at a faster rate.

"We don't think it's quite in place but we don't think we can wait for it to occur," he said.
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Postby Daisy » Fri Jan 16, 2009 3:44 pm

Marlow wrote:If gene-doping is so sci-fi why is WADA spending time and effort in ways to detect it.


WADA's ignorance (or bluster) and easy money for the experts. WADA's throwing around $8 million a year and the experts get lots of publicity too. You think they are going to turn it down or tell WADA to spend it on something else?
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Postby Marlow » Fri Jan 16, 2009 4:42 pm

Based on my understanding of the human animal, its deceit, greed, and imagination, I'm going on record that we WILL have a proven case of successful athletic genetic engineering in the next 15 years. Apropos of nothing, there will also be a successful human clone created in the same time frame, ethics laws notwithstanding.
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Postby eldrick » Fri Jan 16, 2009 5:02 pm

iirc last published wada accounts had a paltry ~$40m/y income

1/4 went to dick poundses

1/4 went to rent

...

you get picture - bugger all for testing & what's left for research probably boils down to bugger's goat
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Postby Daisy » Fri Jan 16, 2009 7:39 pm

eldrick wrote:you get picture - bugger all for testing


The $8 million was quoted from the article. Surely better spent on more traditional testing.

I'll take the bet Marlow.
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Postby tandfman » Sat Jan 17, 2009 8:02 am

Marlow wrote:Based on my understanding of the human animal, its deceit, greed, and imagination, I'm going on record that we WILL have a proven case of successful athletic genetic engineering in the next 15 years.

If you are right, and I have no reason to doubt that you are, then someone should be doing something about it now. WADA is probably the only organization in the world that is in a position to at least try. I wouldn't discourage them.
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Postby Marlow » Sat Jan 17, 2009 4:58 pm

tandfman wrote:
Marlow wrote:Based on my understanding of the human animal, its deceit, greed, and imagination, I'm going on record that we WILL have a proven case of successful athletic genetic engineering in the next 15 years.

If you are right, and I have no reason to doubt that you are, then someone should be doing something about it now. WADA is probably the only organization in the world that is in a position to at least try. I wouldn't discourage them.

Yes, but I'm just a silly paranoid layman. The scientists and doctors among us say it ain't gonna happen . . . ever. :roll:
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Postby Daisy » Sat Jan 17, 2009 7:25 pm

Marlow wrote:The scientists and doctors among us say it ain't gonna happen . . . ever. :roll:


Why would it in a track and field sense? There are plenty of cheap, effective and practically undetectable drugs out there that do a better job.
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Re: Brave New World is here

Postby Marlow » Sun Sep 30, 2012 5:46 pm

Marlow wrote:Genetic manipulation IS going to happen (it's already started on a rudimentary level), and yes, there's going to be mistakes along the way, but sooner or later (my WAG is in 25 years) medicine will begin 'curing' people by manipulating their genes, not just dosing them with meds. When that happens, athletes will be right there in line for 'treatment'. It is inevitable.

Oh dear, someone agrees with me . . . http://www.dailygalaxy.com/my_weblog/20 ... ble-.html/
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Re: Brave New World is here

Postby Pego » Mon Oct 01, 2012 5:03 am

the article wrote:How fast will man eventually run? Will he ever run the 100 meters in five seconds flat?
"Not impossible," says one of the world's best known authorities on physiology and biomechanics. Professor Peter Weyand


With all due respect to the esteemed professor, this is utter nonsense.
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Re: Brave New World is here

Postby tandfman » Mon Oct 01, 2012 5:44 am

Pego wrote:
the article wrote:How fast will man eventually run? Will he ever run the 100 meters in five seconds flat?
"Not impossible," says one of the world's best known authorities on physiology and biomechanics. Professor Peter Weyand

With all due respect to the esteemed professor, this is utter nonsense.

Yup!
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Re: Brave New World is here

Postby Marlow » Mon Oct 01, 2012 6:02 am

tandfman wrote:
Pego wrote:
the article wrote:How fast will man eventually run? Will he ever run the 100 meters in five seconds flat?
"Not impossible," says one of the world's best known authorities on physiology and biomechanics. Professor Peter Weyand

With all due respect to the esteemed professor, this is utter nonsense.

Yup!

The learning curve on genetic manipulation is on the steepest rise it's ever been. It is so unreasonable to project a mere 500, 1000, 2000 years in the future and see where we'll be then? Are we not almost now at the point when science can change the body's physiology? Extrapolate! :D
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Re: Brave New World is here

Postby tandfman » Mon Oct 01, 2012 6:23 am

Marlow wrote:The learning curve on genetic manipulation is on the steepest rise it's ever been. It is so unreasonable to project a mere 500, 1000, 2000 years in the future and see where we'll be then? Are we not almost now at the point when science can change the body's physiology? Extrapolate! :D

Yes, but if I also extrapolate the political and economic developments of the last decade, I can as easily envision a barren planet devoid of human life, or one in which life resembles what it was in the Dark Ages, as I can a guy running the 100 in 5 seconds. :(
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Re: Brave New World is here

Postby Marlow » Mon Oct 01, 2012 6:27 am

tandfman wrote:
Marlow wrote:The learning curve on genetic manipulation is on the steepest rise it's ever been. It is so unreasonable to project a mere 500, 1000, 2000 years in the future and see where we'll be then? Are we not almost now at the point when science can change the body's physiology? Extrapolate! :D

Yes, but if I also extrapolate the political and economic developments of the last decade, I can as easily envision a barren planet devoid of human life, or one in which life resembles what it was in the Dark Ages, as I can a guy running the 100 in 5 seconds. :(

Indeed, and in a parallel universe that WILL happen! [see multiverse discussion] :D
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Re: Brave New World is here

Postby lonewolf » Mon Oct 01, 2012 6:47 am

Friend Marlow, I suspect that if you introduce into your spiel the notion that man will run 100m in 5 seconds, you will instantly lose credibiity.. stick to the nano-babble. :)
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Re: Brave New World is here

Postby Marlow » Mon Oct 01, 2012 6:54 am

lonewolf wrote:Friend Marlow, I suspect that if you introduce into your spiel the notion that man will run 100m in 5 seconds, you will instantly lose credibiity.. stick to the nano-babble.

Are they not part and parcel of the same Brave New World of mine? :P
An Emily Dickinson poem is apropos here:

Much Madness is divinest Sense -
To a discerning Eye -
Much Sense - the starkest Madness -
’Tis the Majority
In this, as all, prevail -
Assent - and you are sane -
Demur - you’re straightway dangerous -
And handled with a Chain -

8-)
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Re: Brave New World is here

Postby Pego » Mon Oct 01, 2012 7:01 am

Marlow wrote:
lonewolf wrote:Friend Marlow, I suspect that if you introduce into your spiel the notion that man will run 100m in 5 seconds, you will instantly lose credibiity.. stick to the nano-babble.

Are they not part and parcel of the same Brave New World of mine? :P
An Emily Dickinson poem is apropos here:

Much Madness is divinest Sense -
To a discerning Eye -
Much Sense - the starkest Madness -
’Tis the Majority
In this, as all, prevail -
Assent - and you are sane -
Demur - you’re straightway dangerous -
And handled with a Chain -

8-)


You are lucky. Lonewolf, tandfman and I still love you.
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Re: Brave New World is here

Postby Daisy » Mon Oct 01, 2012 7:33 am

Pego wrote:
the article wrote:How fast will man eventually run? Will he ever run the 100 meters in five seconds flat?
"Not impossible," says one of the world's best known authorities on physiology and biomechanics. Professor Peter Weyand

With all due respect to the esteemed professor, this is utter nonsense.

But it's great publicity for his research. It seems that no one gets burned for ludicrous comments anymore.
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Re: Brave New World is here

Postby Marlow » Mon Oct 01, 2012 8:03 am

Pego wrote:You are lucky. Lonewolf, tandfman and I still love you.


"So I got that goin' for me, which is nice." - Carl Spackler (and me)

:D
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Re: Brave New World is here

Postby jhc68 » Thu Oct 04, 2012 8:15 pm

Nevermind all this hypothetical 5 second 100m crap. From the LA Times today:
Researchers in Japan say they used mouse stem cells to create eggs and sperm, producing healthy offspring.

HOLY BUCKETS... this is legit Brave New World stuff.
We are just a generation or two away from producing hybridized sprinters who really can run 5 second 100 meters.
That is, barring the economic and social collapse of the civilized world which seems ever more imminent.
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Re: Brave New World is here

Postby Daisy » Thu Oct 04, 2012 9:10 pm

jhc68 wrote:just a generation or two away from producing hybridized sprinters

Can't they just have sex?
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Re: Brave New World is here

Postby Anthony Treacher » Fri Oct 05, 2012 4:18 am

Sorry. Too much trouble these days.
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Re: Brave New World is here

Postby Marlow » Fri Oct 05, 2012 4:42 am

Anthony Treacher wrote:Sorry. Too much trouble these days.

And so imprecise. Millions of swimmers, trying to get to the prize, creating millions of permutations in offspring. It's so much easier to just manipulate the chromosomes into exactly what you want!
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Re: Brave New World is here

Postby Daisy » Fri Oct 05, 2012 4:59 am

Marlow wrote:It's so much easier to just manipulate the chromosomes into exactly what you want!

I think you mean it's more efficient to genotype the embryos and only implant the ones you want. And we are at that point right now except we don't know the consequences of all the polymorphisms, just the major ones. So you probably won't get what you hope for with respect to your goal of a super athlete. But at least your child won't have cystic fibrosis and you'll know the sex.
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Re: Brave New World is here

Postby Pego » Fri Oct 05, 2012 6:20 am

Daisy wrote:at least your child won't have cystic fibrosis


Perhaps.
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Re: Brave New World is here

Postby lonewolf » Fri Oct 05, 2012 6:34 am

Uhhh....One/two question(s): How do you identify the "super sperm"?..and the "super egg"?
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Re: Brave New World is here

Postby Daisy » Fri Oct 05, 2012 6:47 am

lonewolf wrote:How do you identify the "super sperm"?..and the "super egg"?

That is the question. Although, you'd actually be genotyping the zygote, the result of fertilization.

Nobody knows the combination of genetic alleles that are THE ones you want.

Pego wrote:
Daisy wrote:at least your child won't have cystic fibrosis

Perhaps.

Right, no guarantees with the epigenetic landscape complicating the genotype to phenotype equation. And there could always be denovo mutations not identified in the original genotyping.

And who knows what having the embryo manipulated in a petri dish could do? I guess the IVF babies are turing out to be 'normal'?
Last edited by Daisy on Fri Oct 05, 2012 6:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Brave New World is here

Postby lonewolf » Fri Oct 05, 2012 6:51 am

So far, I have (recently) flunked toe dragging, space, super colliders and fertilization.. what else ya got? :?
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Re: Brave New World is here

Postby Marlow » Fri Oct 05, 2012 6:52 am

Daisy wrote:I think you mean it's more efficient to genotype the embryos

Oh . . . yeah . . . right . . . that's the ticket!
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Re: Brave New World is here

Postby Daisy » Fri Oct 05, 2012 6:56 am

lonewolf wrote:So far, I have (recently) flunked toe dragging, space, super colliders and fertilization.. what else ya got? :?

How can fossil sea shells exist in the mountains?

Actually, I do have a real question that I think you might have thought about. How do the magnetic poles switch and what are the consequences of this when it happens? If any?
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Re: Brave New World is here

Postby lonewolf » Fri Oct 05, 2012 7:16 am

Daisy wrote:
lonewolf wrote:So far, I have (recently) flunked toe dragging, space, super colliders and fertilization.. what else ya got? :?

How can fossil sea shells exist in the mountains?

Actually, I do have a real question that I think you might have thought about. How do the magnetic poles switch and what are the consequences of this when it happens? If any?


Sea shells in the mountains are easy...pole reversal not so easy.. I don't think it happens in an instant.

My younger daughter's Masters thesis in Geophysics included a study tracking the migration of the North Pole through magnetic orientation of thin slices of rocks of varying ages.

Over the past few billion years the North Pole has done a figure 8 in the Pacific Ocean and returned to its present position near the oldest know original position. Presumably the South Pole was meandering in corresponding fashion..

I presume, had it kept going south, the polar regions would have migrated covering presently temperate zones until the poles were reversed.. of course, the continents would have been continously changing simultaneously.

The Earth and the Universe are not locked in place...While the geological history of Earth has been the focus and basis of my education and career, I am content to observe it for the century or so I am around and then hand off to someone else..
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Re: Brave New World is here

Postby Marlow » Fri Oct 05, 2012 7:42 am

and we're overdue a mag pole flip! :shock:

The only thing stopping Earth having a lifeless environment like Mars is the magnetic field that shields us from deadly solar radiation and helps some animals migrate, and it may be a lot more fragile and febrile than one might think. Scientists say earth's magnetic field is weakening and could all but disappear in as little as 500 years as a precursor to flipping upside down. It has happened before - the geological record suggests the magnetic field has reversed every 250,000 years, meaning that, with the last event 800,000 years ago, another would seem to be overdue.
"Magnetic north has migrated more than 1,500 kilometres over the past century," said Conall Mac Niocaill, an earth scientist at Oxford University. "In the past 150 years, the strength of the magnetic field has lessened by 10 percent, which could indicate a reversal is on the cards."
While the effects are hard to predict, the consequences may be enormous. The loss of the magnetic field on Mars billions of years ago put paid to life on the planet if there ever was any, scientists say.
Read more: http://www.theprovince.com/technology


Oh dear . . .
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Re: Brave New World is here

Postby Pego » Fri Oct 05, 2012 9:27 am

lonewolf wrote:So far, I have (recently) flunked toe dragging, space, super colliders and fertilization.. what else ya got? :?


...plus Marlow's Klingon thing that drove a few of us in the cave under the rock.
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Re: Brave New World is here

Postby lonewolf » Fri Oct 05, 2012 10:32 am

Now, I've flunked polar magnetism. :(
Not to worry, that remaining 500 year window should be adequate.. for me.. :)
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Re: Brave New World is here

Postby Daisy » Fri Oct 05, 2012 11:03 am

Marlow wrote:and we're overdue a mag pole flip! :shock:
The loss of the magnetic field on Mars billions of years ago put paid to life on the planet if there ever was any, scientists say.

Oh dear . . .

One problem with that statement. There is no correlation with extinction events and magnetic flips that I am aware of.
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