Olympic Sprinters why should i drag my toe?


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Olympic Sprinters why should i drag my toe?

Postby pinoyathletics » Sat Sep 22, 2012 7:40 pm

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Re: Olympic Sprinters why should i drag my toe?

Postby mal » Sun Sep 23, 2012 5:44 am

rubbish.
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Re: Olympic Sprinters why should i drag my toe?

Postby Marlow » Sun Sep 23, 2012 6:49 am

mal wrote:rubbish.

You're being too nice. This is a fundamental misunderstanding of the biomechanics of the start. Some high jumpers and triple jumpers get some toe-drag also, but it's not an advantage; it's simply poor mechanics.
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Re: Olympic Sprinters why should i drag my toe?

Postby fourjz » Sun Sep 23, 2012 9:44 am

Marlow wrote:
mal wrote:rubbish.

You're being too nice. This is a fundamental misunderstanding of the biomechanics of the start. Some high jumpers and triple jumpers get some toe-drag also, but it's not an advantage; it's simply poor mechanics.


Also it's flat out friction,which is not good. :roll:
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Re: Olympic Sprinters why should i drag my toe?

Postby lonewolf » Sun Sep 23, 2012 10:09 am

Where have I been? Seventy years in the sport and I had not previously heard an advocacy for toe dragging.

Help an old amateur out here, folks. It has been a long time since I came out of the blocks but I have been sitting here playing out starts in my mind and I don't buy it. While both legs contribute to thrust coming out of the blocks, unless the feet are equal distance from the start line, how is the the forward leg not the dominant thrust leg? I cannot visualize how consciously dragging the front foot off the blocks as the back foot pulls it forward is a good thing. :?

True, Charles Austin has/had a noticeable toe drag ( in fact, every time I heard it I thought he had tripped) but I never heard and don't see how it improved his performance.
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Re: Olympic Sprinters why should i drag my toe?

Postby Lord_Zanus » Sun Sep 23, 2012 7:21 pm

Marlow wrote:
mal wrote:rubbish.

You're being too nice. This is a fundamental misunderstanding of the biomechanics of the start. Some high jumpers and triple jumpers get some toe-drag also, but it's not an advantage; it's simply poor mechanics.


Actually you're both showing that basic human flaw of dismissing something because you dont understand it. Where the article IS flawed is that it works backwards in assuming the toe drag is the cause when in reality its the effect. However dismissing the "phenomenon" without properly analyzing is just as foolish, probably more. Believe it or not, proper acceleration mechanics from the blocks will and SHOULD have lower heal recovery and the symptom of these mechanics will on occasion result in a toe dragging. Toe dragging doesnt lead to better mechanics.....better mechanics lead to toe dragging....
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Re: Olympic Sprinters why should i drag my toe?

Postby Marlow » Mon Sep 24, 2012 4:05 am

Lord_Zanus wrote:
Marlow wrote:
mal wrote:rubbish.

You're being too nice. This is a fundamental misunderstanding of the biomechanics of the start. Some high jumpers and triple jumpers get some toe-drag also, but it's not an advantage; it's simply poor mechanics.


Actually you're both showing that basic human flaw of dismissing something because you dont understand it. . . .proper acceleration mechanics from the blocks will and SHOULD have lower heal recovery and the symptom of these mechanics will on occasion result in a toe dragging. Toe dragging doesnt lead to better mechanics.....better mechanics lead to toe dragging....

??!! There was no dismissal and there was certainly no misunderstanding. Toe-dragging is neither functional nor desired. Perfect mechanics will not result in toe-dragging. 'Good' mechanics might.
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Re: Olympic Sprinters why should i drag my toe?

Postby cladthin » Mon Sep 24, 2012 8:49 am

Low heel recovery is mentioned very often in much available sprint literature-keeping the forces more horizontal in the start and initial steps of acceleration and less of a vertical nature. If it needs to be to the point of a toe drag I don't know. Perhaps some athletes are finding that is a natural extension of the recommendations and doing so without trying to necessarily drag the toe. On the other hand maybe they are intentionally trying to do this to such an extreme in some cases. Mo Green did this and Ato moreso. Thanou was another who did this. For sure, some coaches are seeking this position. Certainly with Ato, Mo, and Richardson all doing this maybe Smoke could comment as he might have some insight to this with regards to John Smith.
Tony Wells referred to a low heel recovery (I understand that many might agree with low heel recovery just maybe not to this extreme) as avoiding the "loop step" and getting the foot back to the ground more quickly rather than hanging in the air too long.
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Re: Olympic Sprinters why should i drag my toe?

Postby preston » Mon Sep 24, 2012 10:04 am

Cladthin, I agree; Lord_Zanus, you're near there...but Marlow is right: toe-dragging is the result of GOOD mechanics. As he says, 'perfect' mechanics would eliminate the 'drag' while still keeping heel recovery low.
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Re: Olympic Sprinters why should i drag my toe?

Postby mal » Tue Sep 25, 2012 4:08 am

Marlow wrote:
Lord_Zanus wrote:
Marlow wrote:
mal wrote:rubbish.

You're being too nice. This is a fundamental misunderstanding of the biomechanics of the start. Some high jumpers and triple jumpers get some toe-drag also, but it's not an advantage; it's simply poor mechanics.


Actually you're both showing that basic human flaw of dismissing something because you dont understand it. . . .proper acceleration mechanics from the blocks will and SHOULD have lower heal recovery and the symptom of these mechanics will on occasion result in a toe dragging. Toe dragging doesnt lead to better mechanics.....better mechanics lead to toe dragging....

??!! There was no dismissal and there was certainly no misunderstanding. Toe-dragging is neither functional nor desired. Perfect mechanics will not result in toe-dragging. 'Good' mechanics might.


Exactly.

This is trying to define what seems to happen with some individual sprinters and then ascribe it as 'intentional'.

The keys in a start are to put the feet on the ground quickly, while lengthening the stride and keeping a powerful position over the hips. And in a straight line. You have to adjust the knee lift and work your foot placement. Mistakes in these attempts are pretty obvious - a la scattered and wide foot placement. Its quick, but with loss of power and distance. Its been a lot of years since I ran. But I worked very hard on these elements of the acceleration. And did pretty well.

Actually I've had enough of this argument. Go at it.
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Re: Olympic Sprinters why should i drag my toe?

Postby preston » Tue Sep 25, 2012 5:36 am

If "mal" is true to his words of "[having] enough of this argument" then his absense should be of benefit to this threads contributions as his comments were beyond belligerent, unnecessarily, in the comments in the link of the original poster. Also "mal's" having trained with people who were actually talented many many years ago (and also claiming that he "...did pretty well" - a relative term) does not speak to what is effective training methods and or cues that TODAYS athletes/coaches use - even if they seem wrong or counterintuitive. Even mal's point of "scattered foot placement" as a mistake has been noted in some papers as MORE effective; it's a derivative of the sport of speed skatings wide acceleration (not saying that I agree only that there is research behind it).

Whether all or any of these training methods work is debatable, but there is a great argument that they all work better than whatever they were doing in the '80s because nearly all athletes who are NOT European (where they still cling to a lot of the 80s training when not being totally inhibited by racial self-defeatism) are running considerably faster through training concepts that were initially (still?) discounted by European coaches feeling "surpassed" by their less published but more accomplished - in terms of actual results - North American counterparts.

Given the choice of all the bad mechanics that an athlete can pick up or cues that a coach can use as instruction...toe dragging IS EFFECTIVE, if for no other reason that to keep heel recovery low. As sub-optimal alternatives to perfect goes...it is the best.
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Re: Olympic Sprinters why should i drag my toe?

Postby mal » Tue Sep 25, 2012 6:33 am

Thanks for geting me involved again Preston.

Life is a lot simpler than armchair athletes like you seem to believe. In all life today we have paralysis by analysis. Adding a skating technique as an example for track and field sprinting pretty ordinary. Saying that evidence has shown to benefit some is a manipulation of information. Mainly set up by technicians who try to find an explanation for everything.

I'd love to get into a conversation with you about this that was more than a few typed emails, but alas, I can't.

A snippet for you. And I don't know if you were a sprinter, or a thinker, or a thinking sprinter.

Talking about heel drop is not the same as picking your toes up to allow clearance to get your foot on the ground in a start. Fast, and in the right spot. Dragging your toes on the ground is a flaw, as Marlow points out, not an objective.

And Preston if you think I am beligerent, you are correct only in that I seem to be less tolerant for BS than you appear to be. Mechanics are very important in sprinting. Both good mechanics and bad mechanics. There is little that has changed in mechanics since Armin Hary came out of the blocks, or that Jesse Owens demonstrated. Strength has improved, and track surfaces have changed. Good technique has stayed inside predictable parameters. The surfaces are more consistent, allowing techinique to become more consistent. Its still about the best angles to apply the greatest amount of force in the quickest time. Its not about minute, or gross heel drop, or facial expression.

Its not all science and its not all witchcraft. But silly is still silly. Labeling technique a video slo mo doesn't recognize what or why something is happening.

You go out there and run 10.3 on cinders, then on synthetics and come back and talk about it from more than a theoretical basis. But I don't know whether you are a thinker or thinking sprinter. And I sorry you feel I'm too beligerent to make any sense to you.
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Re: Olympic Sprinters why should i drag my toe?

Postby DJG » Tue Sep 25, 2012 7:28 am

Coaches like using "cues", physical and mental (visualizing) for their athletes.

Watching those videos I was struck by how fully extended the power (front leg) was
with the result that the foot was also fully extended and the toes were likely to drag
if the desired low-heel recovery follows.

I agree with those who suggest that the toe dragging (on the second step) is a reult of
full extension of the power leg, which I think all might agree is something that is desirable
from a power point of view.

The side motion, eg. Richardson, may help get a little more push on the track in the first few steps because more foot surface comes in contact with the track, especially if the toes are turned slightly out.

The analogy with the swim start is what I find ridiculous.

To be a good starter you better be strong in the hips and you better react well to the gun.
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Re: Olympic Sprinters why should i drag my toe?

Postby preston » Tue Sep 25, 2012 8:13 am

mal, I knew you weren't going anywhere. You're dismissal is typical of someone with too much self-regard for the fact that they were once a sprinter, in the 80s - not the 60s, who has to use a hand-time, on cinders, while training with elites, to let us know that they once broke 11. I bet if not for all that thinking ... you could have been a contender! (STELLA!!!)

If you would deign to re-read my posts you will see that I didn't buy into any of the ideas being bandied about; however, like others, I don't dismiss EVERYTHING that these people are looking into either (Speedskating start has some promise; I'm not ready to dismiss it. It may be the 7th step to the first hurdle kind of breakthrough. Doesn't hurt to see). The guy in the video has a limited understanding (agreed, DJG, the swim start analogy is laughable) of what he's trying to teach so I'm sure that it's a better situation than whatever he used to do. But, not dragging the toe is a "like to have" not a "got to have"; little different than the trail heel of a hurdler NOT getting higher than the trail knee (see: Richardson, Merritt and most American women hurdlers). You seem to no want to recognize the differences.

Separately, dragging the toe does limit heel recovery, and I do believe that as a cue, it's very effective; however, it also does something else: it allows for better hip/knee/foot positioning to create a better angle with which to produce maximal force at footstrike - which is the purpose of the start and sprinting. I would much rather be Powell*, Bolt and Thanou from the blocks than Gay, Campbell-Brown and many many others.

*Powell has mostly corrected his footdrag but seems to have developed something of a "speedskater" action from the blocks.
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Re: Olympic Sprinters why should i drag my toe?

Postby toyracer » Tue Sep 25, 2012 8:31 am

preston wrote:*Powell has mostly corrected his footdrag but seems to have developed something of a "speedskater" action from the blocks.


I noticed this happening in '09 after his ankle injury and it seems to have stayed with him.
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Re: Olympic Sprinters why should i drag my toe?

Postby Marlow » Tue Sep 25, 2012 8:40 am

I find the 'speed-skating' thing interesting. I think it's possible that it DOES enhance power production (given the human body's vagaries of thrust development), and seem to vaguely recall its discussion in a clinic as viable. Would love to see a bio-mechanical analysis, even though the non-longitudinal nature of it seems counter-intuitive.
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Re: Olympic Sprinters why should i drag my toe?

Postby mal » Tue Sep 25, 2012 10:59 am

Preston I love it when a 'smart' guy thinks he has it right.

And I shall not even get into defending my career. Except to say you are far from the truth. I was long retired before 1980.I have learned over time though, that its what you learn when you are racing that is important, and I was quite successful. Obviously more so than your imagination can stretch.

But enough of me. What makes you the superstar, clairvoyant, and overall bon vivant? Clearly your knowledge of sprinting is more as a spectator than an elite athlete.
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Re: Olympic Sprinters why should i drag my toe?

Postby gh » Tue Sep 25, 2012 11:57 am

enough!
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Re: Olympic Sprinters why should i drag my toe?

Postby DJG » Wed Sep 26, 2012 4:25 am

preston wrote:mal, I knew you weren't going anywhere. You're dismissal is typical of someone with too much self-regard for the fact that they were once a sprinter, in the 80s - not the 60s, who has to use a hand-time, on cinders, while training with elites, to let us know that they once broke 11. I bet if not for all that thinking ... you could have been a contender! (STELLA!!!)

If you would deign to re-read my posts you will see that I didn't buy into any of the ideas being bandied about; however, like others, I don't dismiss EVERYTHING that these people are looking into either (Speedskating start has some promise; I'm not ready to dismiss it. It may be the 7th step to the first hurdle kind of breakthrough. Doesn't hurt to see). The guy in the video has a limited understanding (agreed, DJG, the swim start analogy is laughable) of what he's trying to teach so I'm sure that it's a better situation than whatever he used to do. But, not dragging the toe is a "like to have" not a "got to have"; little different than the trail heel of a hurdler NOT getting higher than the trail knee (see: Richardson, Merritt and most American women hurdlers). You seem to no want to recognize the differences.

Separately, dragging the toe does limit heel recovery, and I do believe that as a cue, it's very effective; however, it also does something else: it allows for better hip/knee/foot positioning to create a better angle with which to produce maximal force at footstrike - which is the purpose of the start and sprinting. I would much rather be Powell*, Bolt and Thanou from the blocks than Gay, Campbell-Brown and many many others.

*Powell has mostly corrected his footdrag but seems to have developed something of a "speedskater" action from the blocks.


Re: swim analogy. Perhaps the writer got carried away watching the "swim" hurdle technique(?), -what do they call the high arm movement of the lead arm?- and applied it to his start analogy.
I'm guessing this technique will become more popular.
My guess as to its efficacy - better stretch over the lead leg and more fluid, continous motion of the arms?
Not trying to drag the thread away from the toes, but I'm interested in this new development as well.
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Re: Olympic Sprinters why should i drag my toe?

Postby Marlow » Wed Sep 26, 2012 6:05 am

DJG wrote:Perhaps the writer got carried away watching the "swim" hurdle technique(?), -what do they call the high arm movement of the lead arm?- and applied it to his start analogy.
I'm guessing this technique will become more popular. My guess as to its efficacy - better stretch over the lead leg and more fluid, continous motion of the arms?

I've been studying it, seeing if I want to play with it my hurdlers in the pre-season. I'm just calling it the 'high-arm-lead' for now. I see its chief benefit as allowing a more downward thrust over the hurdle, so as to get the lead leg snapped down more quickly. 'Floating' is the hurdler's nemesis and even Aries said he was floating too much before the 12.80. If you watch the 12.80 race, you see a more aggressive return to running after the hurdle.
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Re: Olympic Sprinters why should i drag my toe?

Postby preston » Wed Sep 26, 2012 7:14 am

Marlow wrote:
DJG wrote:Perhaps the writer got carried away watching the "swim" hurdle technique(?), -what do they call the high arm movement of the lead arm?- and applied it to his start analogy.
I'm guessing this technique will become more popular. My guess as to its efficacy - better stretch over the lead leg and more fluid, continous motion of the arms?

I've been studying it, seeing if I want to play with it my hurdlers in the pre-season. I'm just calling it the 'high-arm-lead' for now. I see its chief benefit as allowing a more downward thrust over the hurdle, so as to get the lead leg snapped down more quickly. 'Floating' is the hurdler's nemesis and even Aries said he was floating too much before the 12.80. If you watch the 12.80 race, you see a more aggressive return to running after the hurdle.

In the 12.80 race I see that, but I wonder how duplicative it is. Even Richardson who also "leads high" doesn't keep his head/chest as level as does Merritt (who almost looks like how women run over hurdles; little forward lean). I do notice that he keeps his hips forward (and tall) at attack while the others are sitting, nearly defensive, at approach.
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Re: Olympic Sprinters why should i drag my toe?

Postby Marlow » Wed Sep 26, 2012 7:25 am

preston wrote:In the 12.80 race I see that, but I wonder how duplicative it is. Even Richardson who also "leads high" doesn't keep his head/chest as level as does Merritt (who almost looks like how women run over hurdles; little forward lean). I do notice that he keeps his hips forward (and tall) at attack while the others are sitting, nearly defensive, at approach.

Good points all. That 'sitting' you describe is indeed a real time-killer.
I'm not convinced one needs a full 'dive' (ala AJ, who got his head really forward over the hurdle), but an upright position over the 42"s (but not the 33") can slow you down by not accentuating an accelerating position coming off the hurdle.
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Re: Olympic Sprinters why should i drag my toe?

Postby DJG » Wed Sep 26, 2012 7:47 am

Marlow wrote:
preston wrote:In the 12.80 race I see that, but I wonder how duplicative it is. Even Richardson who also "leads high" doesn't keep his head/chest as level as does Merritt (who almost looks like how women run over hurdles; little forward lean). I do notice that he keeps his hips forward (and tall) at attack while the others are sitting, nearly defensive, at approach.

Good points all. That 'sitting' you describe is indeed a real time-killer.
I'm not convinced one needs a full 'dive' (ala AJ, who got his head really forward over the hurdle), but an upright position over the 42"s (but not the 33") can slow you down by not accentuating an accelerating position coming off the hurdle.


Great start (although upright very quickly) and an even better fininsh - sprinting the last 13m
and leaning at just the right moment, not early as many hurdlers do.
Richardson's head movement is one difference between his technique and Aries'.

Why couldn't this technique be duplicated? How tall is Merritt, by the way?
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Re: Olympic Sprinters why should i drag my toe?

Postby Marlow » Wed Sep 26, 2012 8:06 am

DJG wrote:Why couldn't this technique be duplicated? How tall is Merritt, by the way?

It can. IAAF lists him at 1.88 (6-2), ideal height for a 110Her.
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Re: Olympic Sprinters why should i drag my toe?

Postby cladthin » Wed Sep 26, 2012 8:55 am

I think Johnson needed more of a dive since he was a relatively short hurdler. I have wondered if Richardson really benefits from the degree of head action/dive he gets especially at his height though I don't know what his leg length is relative to his height. Merritt as mentioned above has pretty much no head action. Another thing that differentiates JR and AR is though they both come over and across with the lead arm more than than most if not all of their contemporaries, is that JR crosses the mid-line to a greater degree which is typically not advised-potentially causing too much torque, twisting that should show up in the flight and/or td. These taller guys and especially the guys with long legs likely don't benefit as much from the dive-Robles is another who kept his head steady throughout races.
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Re: Olympic Sprinters why should i drag my toe?

Postby DJG » Wed Sep 26, 2012 10:51 am

cladthin wrote:I think Johnson needed more of a dive since he was a relatively short hurdler. I have wondered if Richardson really benefits from the degree of head action/dive he gets especially at his height though I don't know what his leg length is relative to his height. Merritt as mentioned above has pretty much no head action. Another thing that differentiates JR and AR is though they both come over and across with the lead arm more than than most if not all of their contemporaries, is that JR crosses the mid-line to a greater degree which is typically not advised-potentially causing too much torque, twisting that should show up in the flight and/or td. These taller guys and especially the guys with long legs likely don't benefit as much from the dive-Robles is another who kept his head steady throughout races.


In the video of the 12.80 race on runblog? the view from behind shows Richardson twist on landing
after hurdle 5 or 6 and lose ground.
Aries didn't hit a hurdle that I can see and ran a "perfect race" as he said in the post-race interview.
Fast track and JR in the next lane and 0.3 wind at his back didn't hurt either.
Thanks all for your analysis and time.

As for the toe-drag, if it comes from full extension of the front-power-drive-leg and the low-heel recovery, then a little drag of the tip of the shoe could be a positive sign that the start was executed well. With that I shuffle off to ... clean the yard.
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Re: Olympic Sprinters why should i drag my toe?

Postby cladthin » Wed Sep 26, 2012 2:05 pm

DJG wrote:
cladthin wrote:I think Johnson needed more of a dive since he was a relatively short hurdler. I have wondered if Richardson really benefits from the degree of head action/dive he gets especially at his height though I don't know what his leg length is relative to his height. Merritt as mentioned above has pretty much no head action. Another thing that differentiates JR and AR is though they both come over and across with the lead arm more than than most if not all of their contemporaries, is that JR crosses the mid-line to a greater degree which is typically not advised-potentially causing too much torque, twisting that should show up in the flight and/or td. These taller guys and especially the guys with long legs likely don't benefit as much from the dive-Robles is another who kept his head steady throughout races.


In the video of the 12.80 race on runblog? the view from behind shows Richardson twist on landing
after hurdle 5 or 6 and lose ground.
Aries didn't hit a hurdle that I can see and ran a "perfect race" as he said in the post-race interview.
Fast track and JR in the next lane and 0.3 wind at his back didn't hurt either.
Thanks all for your analysis and time.

As for the toe-drag, if it comes from full extension of the front-power-drive-leg and the low-heel recovery, then a little drag of the tip of the shoe could be a positive sign that the start was executed well. With that I shuffle off to ... clean the yard.



DJG, thanks for the information on JR. I would like to see a different view of that race that shows the twisting you are referring to. Do you know the full address/link for that alternate view?

The Universal Sport video for the Monaco 110mh is one of the best I've ever seen especially the slow-motion lateral view.
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Re: Olympic Sprinters why should i drag my toe?

Postby DJG » Thu Sep 27, 2012 5:12 am

cladthin wrote:
DJG wrote:
cladthin wrote:I think Johnson needed more of a dive since he was a relatively short hurdler. I have wondered if Richardson really benefits from the degree of head action/dive he gets especially at his height though I don't know what his leg length is relative to his height. Merritt as mentioned above has pretty much no head action. Another thing that differentiates JR and AR is though they both come over and across with the lead arm more than than most if not all of their contemporaries, is that JR crosses the mid-line to a greater degree which is typically not advised-potentially causing too much torque, twisting that should show up in the flight and/or td. These taller guys and especially the guys with long legs likely don't benefit as much from the dive-Robles is another who kept his head steady throughout races.


In the video of the 12.80 race on runblog? the view from behind shows Richardson twist on landing
after hurdle 5 or 6 and lose ground.
Aries didn't hit a hurdle that I can see and ran a "perfect race" as he said in the post-race interview.
Fast track and JR in the next lane and 0.3 wind at his back didn't hurt either.
Thanks all for your analysis and time.

As for the toe-drag, if it comes from full extension of the front-power-drive-leg and the low-heel recovery, then a little drag of the tip of the shoe could be a positive sign that the start was executed well. With that I shuffle off to ... clean the yard.



DJG, thanks for the information on JR. I would like to see a different view of that race that shows the twisting you are referring to. Do you know the full address/link for that alternate view?

The Universal Sport video for the Monaco 110mh is one of the best I've ever seen especially the slow-motion lateral view.


http://www.letsrun.com/2012/merritt-wor ... d-0907.php

Is also from Universal Sport, Cladthin. Do you see JR drifting? And it was the 4th hurdle that
gave him trouble.
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Re: Olympic Sprinters why should i drag my toe?

Postby cladthin » Thu Sep 27, 2012 9:18 am

DJG wrote:
cladthin wrote:
DJG wrote:
cladthin wrote:I think Johnson needed more of a dive since he was a relatively short hurdler. I have wondered if Richardson really benefits from the degree of head action/dive he gets especially at his height though I don't know what his leg length is relative to his height. Merritt as mentioned above has pretty much no head action. Another thing that differentiates JR and AR is though they both come over and across with the lead arm more than than most if not all of their contemporaries, is that JR crosses the mid-line to a greater degree which is typically not advised-potentially causing too much torque, twisting that should show up in the flight and/or td. These taller guys and especially the guys with long legs likely don't benefit as much from the dive-Robles is another who kept his head steady throughout races.


In the video of the 12.80 race on runblog? the view from behind shows Richardson twist on landing
after hurdle 5 or 6 and lose ground.
Aries didn't hit a hurdle that I can see and ran a "perfect race" as he said in the post-race interview.
Fast track and JR in the next lane and 0.3 wind at his back didn't hurt either.
Thanks all for your analysis and time.

As for the toe-drag, if it comes from full extension of the front-power-drive-leg and the low-heel recovery, then a little drag of the tip of the shoe could be a positive sign that the start was executed well. With that I shuffle off to ... clean the yard.



DJG, thanks for the information on JR. I would like to see a different view of that race that shows the twisting you are referring to. Do you know the full address/link for that alternate view?

The Universal Sport video for the Monaco 110mh is one of the best I've ever seen especially the slow-motion lateral view.


http://www.letsrun.com/2012/merritt-wor ... d-0907.php

Is also from Universal Sport, Cladthin. Do you see JR drifting? And it was the 4th hurdle that
gave him trouble.


DJG, thanks. I had looked at that video before but I did not recall seeing that rear view. You can definitely see JR weaving at points in his race H4 and others/some of the landings do look off balance and I have to believe that lead arm does contribute somewhat to this. Whereas AM probably runs close to 110m linearly (save the vertical displacement) Richardson probably runs an extra meter or so over the distance with all of the extra torque he gets. AM, to his credit, is pretty much always over the center or just slightly off center of the barrier in his flight. It does look like JR still has the potential to shave some time of his pr and this from a guy who ran two legal sub 13s this year, I think!
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Re: Olympic Sprinters why should i drag my toe?

Postby Lord_Zanus » Thu Sep 27, 2012 11:51 am

Marlow wrote:
Lord_Zanus wrote:
Marlow wrote:
mal wrote:rubbish.

You're being too nice. This is a fundamental misunderstanding of the biomechanics of the start. Some high jumpers and triple jumpers get some toe-drag also, but it's not an advantage; it's simply poor mechanics.


Actually you're both showing that basic human flaw of dismissing something because you dont understand it. . . .proper acceleration mechanics from the blocks will and SHOULD have lower heal recovery and the symptom of these mechanics will on occasion result in a toe dragging. Toe dragging doesnt lead to better mechanics.....better mechanics lead to toe dragging....

??!! There was no dismissal and there was certainly no misunderstanding. Toe-dragging is neither functional nor desired. Perfect mechanics will not result in toe-dragging. 'Good' mechanics might.


I think in many ways you're still assuming that i'm advocating that toes be purposely dragged. This should have been clear when I said that dragging is a symptom and not the source of good mechanics as the article would suggest. It's extremely likely and probably that the athletes who drag are simply following cues learned in practice. Which in most cases, if done often enough will leave residual effects in the race. So in the case of Asafa Powell for example, being able to achieve the departure angles that he does, it's MORE likely that his toe will drag on occasion if he's exhibiting efficient acceleration mechanics. Doesn't mean that it's desired or praised.
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Re: Olympic Sprinters why should i drag my toe?

Postby Lord_Zanus » Thu Sep 27, 2012 11:57 am

toyracer wrote:
preston wrote:*Powell has mostly corrected his footdrag but seems to have developed something of a "speedskater" action from the blocks.


I noticed this happening in '09 after his ankle injury and it seems to have stayed with him.


He lost quite a bit of strength as a result of the injury and is likely still suffering from it. If you noticed, he's also changed his block setting as well, but that changed happened this season. I'm not sure if this is to compensate for the something or if it's simply a matter of tweaking.
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Re: Olympic Sprinters why should i drag my toe?

Postby DJG » Thu Sep 27, 2012 1:13 pm

cladthin wrote:
DJG, thanks. I had looked at that video before but I did not recall seeing that rear view. You can definitely see JR weaving at points in his race H4 and others/some of the landings do look off balance and I have to believe that lead arm does contribute somewhat to this. Whereas AM probably runs close to 110m linearly (save the vertical displacement) Richardson probably runs an extra meter or so over the distance with all of the extra torque he gets. AM, to his credit, is pretty much always over the center or just slightly off center of the barrier in his flight. It does look like JR still has the potential to shave some time of his pr and this from a guy who ran two legal sub 13s this year, I think!


One other point on JR's running form - he seems to be leaning too much, especially noticeable from the last hurdle to the finish, but also between hurdles. Maybe needs to straiten up abit more. The hair do may also be a factor, but I don't see any makeovers anytime soon.
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Re: Olympic Sprinters why should i drag my toe?

Postby cladthin » Thu Sep 27, 2012 1:22 pm

DJG wrote:
cladthin wrote:
DJG, thanks. I had looked at that video before but I did not recall seeing that rear view. You can definitely see JR weaving at points in his race H4 and others/some of the landings do look off balance and I have to believe that lead arm does contribute somewhat to this. Whereas AM probably runs close to 110m linearly (save the vertical displacement) Richardson probably runs an extra meter or so over the distance with all of the extra torque he gets. AM, to his credit, is pretty much always over the center or just slightly off center of the barrier in his flight. It does look like JR still has the potential to shave some time of his pr and this from a guy who ran two legal sub 13s this year, I think!


One other point on JR's running form - he seems to be leaning too much, especially noticeable from the last hurdle to the finish, but also between hurdles. Maybe needs to straiten up abit more. The hair do may also be a factor, but I don't see any makeovers anytime soon.


Yeah, I think that head drop as part of his dive leads to excessive lean especially since he's nearly 6'3" it's probably not necessary. Maybe if he kept his head still, more upright in takeoff and flight it would eliminate this.
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Re: Olympic Sprinters why should i drag my toe?

Postby DJG » Mon Oct 01, 2012 5:44 am

cladthin wrote:
DJG wrote:
cladthin wrote:
DJG, thanks. I had looked at that video before but I did not recall seeing that rear view. You can definitely see JR weaving at points in his race H4 and others/some of the landings do look off balance and I have to believe that lead arm does contribute somewhat to this. Whereas AM probably runs close to 110m linearly (save the vertical displacement) Richardson probably runs an extra meter or so over the distance with all of the extra torque he gets. AM, to his credit, is pretty much always over the center or just slightly off center of the barrier in his flight. It does look like JR still has the potential to shave some time of his pr and this from a guy who ran two legal sub 13s this year, I think!


One other point on JR's running form - he seems to be leaning too much, especially noticeable from the last hurdle to the finish, but also between hurdles. Maybe needs to straiten up abit more. The hair do may also be a factor, but I don't see any makeovers anytime soon.


Yeah, I think that head drop as part of his dive leads to excessive lean especially since he's nearly 6'3" it's probably not necessary. Maybe if he kept his head still, more upright in takeoff and flight it would eliminate this.


Q.) What would you (How) figure to be his pure 100 m time based on his 12.80 for 110m w/10 hurdles?
Q.) Is there any data that shows the speed of the hurdler for the three plus meters airborne over the hurdle that shows faster or slower speed during that flight phase?

I'm guessing that 12.80- .9 for the extra 10m - 2.0 for the 10 hurdles = 9.9 to 10.0 for his 100 time.

Is there an accepted conversion for estimating 100 time from 110 hurdle time?
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Re: Olympic Sprinters why should i drag my toe?

Postby Marlow » Mon Oct 01, 2012 6:23 am

DJG wrote: What would you (How) figure to be his pure 100 m time based on his 12.80 for 110m w/10 hurdles? Is there an accepted conversion for estimating 100 time from 110 hurdle time?

Unknowable. There are too many variables. I would GUESS that a sub-13 hurdler would need at least 10.30 speed (if properly trained for the 100). I'd further guess that Aries could have run 10.40 the day he ran 12.80, but that with a month's sprint-specific training he could get that down to 10.20. Focusing ONLY on the 100 might get that all the way down to 10.00. All of these guesses are substantiated by absolutely nothing!
Aries is ultra-hyper-super-quick, that's for sure, as quick as ANY sprinter out there (Bolt included), but how that translates into top-end speed is problematic.
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Re: Olympic Sprinters why should i drag my toe?

Postby cladthin » Mon Oct 01, 2012 7:34 pm

Marlow wrote:
DJG wrote: What would you (How) figure to be his pure 100 m time based on his 12.80 for 110m w/10 hurdles? Is there an accepted conversion for estimating 100 time from 110 hurdle time?

Unknowable. There are too many variables. I would GUESS that a sub-13 hurdler would need at least 10.30 speed (if properly trained for the 100). I'd further guess that Aries could have run 10.40 the day he ran 12.80, but that with a month's sprint-specific training he could get that down to 10.20. Focusing ONLY on the 100 might get that all the way down to 10.00. All of these guesses are substantiated by absolutely nothing!
Aries is ultra-hyper-super-quick, that's for sure, as quick as ANY sprinter out there (Bolt included), but how that translates into top-end speed is problematic.


I agree, too many variables to make any equation or conversion (I don't know of any actually) reliable except for the outside possibility of trying to predict an individual's times based upon previous data of the relationship between the highs and the flat for that person. Because the spacings so limit the use of max. velocity it's very difficult to say what a guy would run on the flat. Didn't Oliver guess he's (D.O. that is) closer to 10.50? I believe AM's 7 stride approach to H1 would probably much more similar to the stride lengths he would use in a 60 or 100m flat (than a 8 stride approach would) if he were to run one though he certainly would not be "up" so soon with no hurdle to clear. It seems that some high hurdlers can exhibit such high frequency and their stride lengths and leg lengths seem to match up well with the built in restrictions of the hurdle spacing yet might not be as fast on the flat as one might predict though that could be, in part, because they only hurdle and rarely if ever allow their strides to "open up".

Some coaches don't want their high hurdlers doing any speed changes/ins-outs or fly-ins for fear of disrupting their hurdle rhythm and stride length/pattern. I have always felt the need to do at least some volume of flat work work in late GPP into SPP and continue flat sprint work even if only in the form of some 30-40m accelerations throughout the year though the emphasis certainly moves to a greater volume of actual sprint hurdling. Here's a good interview with AM's coach Andreas Behm outlining much of the detailed philosophy of the training program.

http://www.elitetrack.com/blogs/details/7385/
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Re: Olympic Sprinters why should i drag my toe?

Postby Marlow » Tue Oct 02, 2012 6:30 am

cladthin wrote:http://www.elitetrack.com/blogs/details/7385/

Thanks for the link - I love that stuff!

A few excerpts:
The other major technical component [besides the 7-step approach] we refined was his hurdle clearance. We worked on establishing consistent takeoff distances, an aggressive takeoff angle, closing down into and over the hurdle as well as continuously moving his limbs over the top of the hurdle. All this resulted in him clearing the hurdle a lot lower and more fluidly than he used to.

In our system acceleration and speed development lay the foundation for everything we do. I would much rather manipulate variables such as training volume and/or density before I reduce training intensity.

The younger the training age of the athlete, the more important hurdle drills are for developmental purposes. We use drills with these athletes to introduce postures and movement concepts,

We rarely, if ever hurdle at regular hurdle height and spacing. In an effort to establish fast hurdle rhythms between the hurdles we lower and discount the hurdles. The only hurdle which remains fairly in place is the first hurdle, all others we move in. Early in the year we tend to work over 4-6 hurdles with the focus being on a dynamic approach and optimal hurdling speed/rhythm,

I have put an added emphasis on such lifts as quarter squats, low box step ups and explosive movements from shallow flexion.
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Re: Olympic Sprinters why should i drag my toe?

Postby fourjz » Tue Oct 02, 2012 6:57 am

So I take it we are done on the "toe drag" issue,and moved on to hurdle training theory ? :wink:
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Re: Olympic Sprinters why should i drag my toe?

Postby cladthin » Tue Oct 02, 2012 9:07 am

Marlow wrote:
cladthin wrote:http://www.elitetrack.com/blogs/details/7385/

Thanks for the link - I love that stuff!

A few excerpts:
The other major technical component [besides the 7-step approach] we refined was his hurdle clearance. We worked on establishing consistent takeoff distances, an aggressive takeoff angle, closing down into and over the hurdle as well as continuously moving his limbs over the top of the hurdle. All this resulted in him clearing the hurdle a lot lower and more fluidly than he used to.

In our system acceleration and speed development lay the foundation for everything we do. I would much rather manipulate variables such as training volume and/or density before I reduce training intensity.

The younger the training age of the athlete, the more important hurdle drills are for developmental purposes. We use drills with these athletes to introduce postures and movement concepts,

We rarely, if ever hurdle at regular hurdle height and spacing. In an effort to establish fast hurdle rhythms between the hurdles we lower and discount the hurdles. The only hurdle which remains fairly in place is the first hurdle, all others we move in. Early in the year we tend to work over 4-6 hurdles with the focus being on a dynamic approach and optimal hurdling speed/rhythm,

I have put an added emphasis on such lifts as quarter squats, low box step ups and explosive movements from shallow flexion.


Yeah, no problem. It's not often a coach goes into such detail short of releasing a dvd, book or presenting at a clinic/seminar. I think Behm became Merritt's full time coach back in 2009 (at least based upon what I think I saw or read on flotrack) but I imagine(?) Vince Anderson has remained in an advisory role since that's who I believe Merritt moved to College Station to work with, originally.
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Re: Olympic Sprinters why should i drag my toe?

Postby cladthin » Tue Oct 02, 2012 9:10 am

fourjz wrote:So I take it we are done on the "toe drag" issue,and moved on to hurdle training theory ? :wink:


Yes, it's interesting how the theme of the thread sort of changed gears.
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