greatest movie ever... how about Vertigo?

[gh]

we've had other threads on great movies, but this one is such a radical departure (it's truly global, not Hollywood-centric like most other musings on the topic) I figured it could get its own thread.

British Film Institute poll. After many-many years, Vertigo finally passes Citizen Kane:

http://www.bfi.org.uk/news/50-greatest-films-all-time

All kinds of "foreign" films in there that I'll readily admit to not even being aware of the existence thereof.

But how can I take any poll seriously which puts Mullholland Drive in the No. 28 position?

[Marlow]

But how can I take any poll seriously which puts Mullholland Drive in the No. 28 position?

Zackly, plus it's easily argued that Vertigo isn't even Hitchcock's best.

[Pego]

But how can I take any poll seriously which puts Mullholland Drive in the No. 28 position?

Zackly, plus it's easily argued that Vertigo isn't even Hitchcock's best.

I liked it the best of all Hitchcock's. Also the best of all Jimmy Stewart's.

[Marlow]

But how can I take any poll seriously which puts Mullholland Drive in the No. 28 position?

Zackly, plus it's easily argued that Vertigo isn't even Hitchcock's best.

I liked it the best of all Hitchcock's. Also the best of all Jimmy Stewart's.

Despite its schlockiness, Psycho is the best (IMO) H movie ever. There are so many clever directorial and editing elements, it exceeds even Vertigo's virtuosity (which is indeed immense).

[mump boy]

I saw Vertigo at a Hitchcock retrospective at National Film Theatre the other night

What a load of crap. Totally unconvincing in every way, ridiculous script, ridiculous dialogue, awful over acting but worst of all it was REALLY boring. I didn't care about any of the characters, or the plot which is pretty important in enjoying a film

I was gobsmacked that this was considered a competent piece of film making never mind the best of all time !!

Kim Novak looked great though

[mcgato]

I'm always amazed at the high rating that Vertigo gets. I saw it, and was not very impressed. Kind of boring. Maybe I'm missing some deeper elements. I know that the first time that I saw Citizen Kane, I thought it was kind of boring and wondered what the big deal was. Then I saw it with people who studied it in film class. They were pointing out all of the subtle elements that I totally missed the first time.

Of the top 50, I've seen about 25 which isn't bad. I tried to watch a few more on the list, but couldn't get through them.

[Marlow]

Of the top 50, I've seen about 25 which isn't bad.

Never seen 3, 4, or 5. (or 20 others)

[jeremyp]

This list is for art buffs. I remember in college seeing many of these older movies and having to listen to intellectual babble about how great they were. If your into the esoteria of these buffs this may be only one of many lists. Metaphor and symbolism pervade these movies and the buffs look for them so they can dissect them and argue intellectual twaddle about them. Hey I'm not biased am I??? I used to have a roomate who would drive me crazy with "symbolism/metaphor" talk about movies and books. It left me cold.

The one thing that struck me about many of these movies is that they are an intellectual artists view ABOUT the world and not about THE world. They are not natural or in some cases they are too natural (endless talk, endless panning of scenes without dialog, people doing every day boring things ad nauseam.) Once you see a movie it hits you subjectively and that's different for everybody. I've seen movies that really hit me where I live at the time and not the next viewing, because I wasn't in that spot anymore. Many movies I saw when I was young seemed way more sophistictaed and deep than they do now. If I still think it's good decades later it goes to my "best" list.

[gh]

In all seriousness, great stuff jeremyp... that may be the best bit of analysis of film analysis I've ever read.

[lonewolf]

I have seen a few of these "great" films, most in original releases in the 1930s-40s in glorious black and white. I was certainly no film critic and do not remember my assessment at the time.

When I see old movies now I am struck by the crude graphics, over acting, stilted/corny dialogue and wonder what is so great about them.

My now 44 year old youngest daughter was a big fan of old movies as a teenager and twenty-something but has come share my opinion.

[kuha]

This list is for art buffs.

Of course it is, and that's just fine. And people who care about the "art" of anything--music, architecture, fashion, whatever--tend to have a different view of these subjects from casual consumers. Which is exactly why those lists are worth looking at in the first place.

[gh]

Don't forget MGM's motto: ars gratia artis (art for art's sake).

But Mullholland Drive?! If they wanna do something weird by David Lynch why didn't they just stick to the old standby, Eraserhead?!

[Pego]

Don't forget MGM's motto: ars gratia artis (art for art's sake).

Communist politruks used to seethe over this concept. This was bourgeois decadence.

[Marlow]

Metaphor and symbolism pervade these movies and the buffs look for them so they can dissect them and argue intellectual twaddle about them.

Couldn't agree more, but we all have to remember that films (and art in general) like these are FOR intellectuals (one of the few terms I know that has very positive and very negative connotations) and each one represents A perspective that may or may not be shared with very many other people. As with all art, it is what you behold it to be, nothing more, nothing less.

Communist politruks used to seethe over this concept. This was bourgeois decadence.

And to rephrase Socrates: A life without art is not worth living.

[Friar]

I'm always amazed at the high rating that Vertigo gets.

Bernard Hermann score is pretty dominant and if you really like it you probably really like the film.
It's hard to pick against The Godfather which is almost perfection as I see it (fan of ethnic criminal stuff or not). I didn't see Wizard of Oz on the list. Not too shabby either.

I think the first adult film I paid to see was Lawrence of Arabia which was a good standard to set.

[aaronk]

I'm a huge movie buff, having watched over 4300 movies in my life.
(I have two notebooks with ALL the movies I've seen listed, with their year of release, under various categories.)
I also LOVE to make lists and do ratings.
Thus, I've listed my top 15 movies from each individual year, starting in 1970.
Before that, from 1938 through 1969, I've rated the best movies I've seen in TWO-year groupings (1938-1939, 1940-1941, and so on, through 1968-1969.)
And before THAT, because I'd seen far less movies from the early days, I rated my 15 favorite movies from the beginning of the "sound" era through 1937. (1927-1937.)
Following, in more than one post (because of space needed), are my "top 3" from each grouping of years, or from the individual years of 1970 onward.
Keep in mind that ANY rating system, especially that of an individual human being, is HIGHLY subjective!!
Mine certainly is!!
I'll list the titles in order (1-2-3) after each year.

1927-1937: King Kong, Les Miserables, Frankenstein.
1938-1939: Of Mice and Men, Mr Smith Goes to Washington, A Christmas Carol.
1940-1941: The Wolf Man, Our Town, The Grapes of Wrath.
1942-1943: The Moon and Sixpence, The Pride of the Yankees, Shadow of a Doubt.
1944-1945: The Clock, The Miracle of Morgan's Creek, The Lost Weekend.
1946-1947: Miracle On 34th Street, The Ghost and Mrs Muir, The Bicycle Thief.
1948-1949: Rope, State of the Union, White Heat.

Continued in the next post.

[aaronk]

1950-1951: A Christmas Carol, The Day the Earth Stood Still, The African Queen.
1952-1953: From Here to Eternity, Moulin Rouge, House of Wax.
1954-1955: The Honeymooners (TV-39 classic episodes), Davy Crockett, King of the Wild Frontier (the Disney series with Fess Parker), Godzilla, King of the Monsters (the original).
1956-1957: The Ten Commandments (my #1 all-time favorite movie!!!), Lust for Life, Invasion of the Body Snatchers.
1958-1959: I Want to Live!, The Tingler, The World, the Flesh, and the Devil.

NOTE: In this previous group, I rated a TV series #1. This will occur in future years too. But I rate a show for its entire season, or seasons,, not for one episode. Also, in the future, you'll find "concert movies" rated. Sometimes, music wins!! One other thing: There are some "made for TV" movies rated as well. I'll note these when applicable. Oh yes, one MORE thing: Some earlier movies have been remade, using the same title. As noted, I rate each movie in the year of its release.

1960-1961: Psycho, The Little Shop of Horrors, The Alamo.
1962-1963: The Birds, To Kill a Mockingbird, A Child is Waiting.
1964-1965: The T.A.M.I. Show (a concert movie), The Sound of Music, Woman in the Dunes. (A Hard Day's Night is 4th!!!)
1966-1967: Don't Look Back (Dylan doc.), The Graduate, Who's Afraid of Virginia Wolff?.
1968-1969: 2001: A Space Odyssey, Yellow Submarine, Rosemary's Baby.

1970: Let It Be, Woodstock (concert movie), Performance.
1971: Play Misty for Me, Duel, Silent Running.
1972: Play It Again, Sam, Slaughterhouse Five, C..Ksucker Blues (Fill in the blanks...it's a dirty word!! But a GREAT doc on the Rolling Stones!!)
1973: The Exorcist, Sleeper, Blume in Love.
1974: Young Frankenstein, The Taking of Pelham One Two Three, Claudine.
1975: Jaws, One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest, Janis (bio doc on Janis Joplin.)
1976: All the President's Men, Taxi Driver, Carrie.
1977: Annie Hall, Smokey and the Bandit, Demon Seed.
1978: An Unmarried Woman, The Other Side of the Mountain Part II (TV movie), I Spit On Your Grave.
1979: Chapter Two, Kramer vs Kramer, The China Syndrome.

Continued in the next post.

[aaronk]

1980: A Town Like Alice (TV movie), Airplane!, The Blues Brothers.
1981: Arthur, On Golden Pond, Smash Palace.
1982: The Executioner's Song (Euro. version), Poetry in Motion (poetry reading with some Beat poets), Marianne and Juliane.
1983: The Big Chill, The King of Comedy, Man, Woman, and Child.
1984: Something About Amelia (TV movie), A Test of Love, Tightrope.
1985: Always (Henry Jaglom movie), Pale Rider, Deadly Intentions (TV movie).
1986: Hannah and Her Sisters, Back to School, About Last Night....
1987: Elvis '56:In the Beginning (GREAT Elvis doc/concert movie!!), Gaby: A True Story, Fatal Attraction.
1988: Working Girl, Bull Durham, Rain Man.
1989: When Harry Met Sally, Uncle Buck, Small Sacrifices (TV movie).

1990: Flashback, A Show of Force, White Palace.
1991: Crazy from the Heart (TV movie), The Silence of the Lambs, The Hours and Times.
1992: Majority Rule (TV movie about our first woman President!!), The Panama Deception (doc), Husbands and Wives.
1993: In the line of Fire, Jurassic Park (the first!), Indecent Proposal.
1994: Jane's House (TV movie), Clerks, L'Ennui (French movie).
1995: MTV Unplugged: Bob Dylan (GREAT concert movie!!), The American President, The Bridges of Madison County.
1996: Everything Relative ("The Big Chill" of lesbian movies!!), An Unexpected Family (TV movie), Moses (Ben Kingsley as Moses).
1997: As Good As It Gets, Fools Rush In, Funny Games (French version!!)
1998: Live from Austin, Texas: Lucinda Williams (concert movie), Primary Colors, The Dreamlife of Angels.
1999: Notting Hill, The Loretta Claiborne Story (true story about a para-Olympian!!), The Terrorist.

2000: Erin Brockovich, You Can Count On Me, The Family Man.
2001: Never Again, Everything Put Together, i am sam.
2002: About Schmidt, An Evening with the Dixie Chicks (concert movie), He loves Me...He Loves Me Not (French movie).
2003: The Sleeping Dictionary, Top of the World Tour: Dixie Chicks Live (concert movie), The Mother.
2004: Before Sunset, Fahrenheit 9/11 (doc), Million Dollar Baby.
2005: No Direction Home (Dylan bio/doc/concert movie), Down to the Bone, An Unfinished Life.
2006: Commander-in-Chief (full season of TV series about 1st woman President), United 93, The Heart of the Game.
2007: 4 Months, 3 Weeks, and 2 Days, Freedom Writers, My Kid Could Paint That (doc).
2008: American Teen, W., Gran Torino.
2009: Up in the Air, American Violet, The Private Lives of Pippa Lee.

2010: Welcome to the Riley's, Catfish, The Social Network.
2011: Sarah Palin's Alaska (complete TV series), Martha Marcy May Marlene, The Undefeated (doc on Sarah Palin)

Only watched one "movie" from this year thus far.....the complete TV series "Life's a Tripp!"...about Bristol Palin and her son Tripp.

No cable, don't go to theaters, so all recent movies seen on DVD on my computer.
All lists subject to change.

[Marlow]

I'm a huge movie buff . . .

That may be the Tafny understatement of the year. I have top 10 lists for the last 20 years and thought I had everyone else out-geeked - not even close! T'anx!

[catson52]

I'm a huge movie buff, having watched over 4300 movies in my life.
(I have two notebooks with ALL the movies I've seen listed, with their year of release, under various categories.)
I also LOVE to make lists and do ratings.
Thus, I've listed my top 15 movies from each individual year, starting in 1970.
Before that, from 1938 through 1969, I've rated the best movies I've seen in TWO-year groupings (1938-1939, 1940-1941, and so on, through 1968-1969.)
And before THAT, because I'd seen far less movies from the early days, I rated my 15 favorite movies from the beginning of the "sound" era through 1937. (1927-1937.)
Following, in more than one post (because of space needed), are my "top 3" from each grouping of years, or from the individual years of 1970 onward.
Keep in mind that ANY rating system, especially that of an individual human being, is HIGHLY subjective!!
Mine certainly is!!
I'll list the titles in order (1-2-3) after each year.

1927-1937: King Kong, Les Miserables, Frankenstein.
1938-1939: Of Mice and Men, Mr Smith Goes to Washington, A Christmas Carol.
1940-1941: The Wolf Man, Our Town, The Grapes of Wrath.
1942-1943: The Moon and Sixpence, The Pride of the Yankees, Shadow of a Doubt.
1944-1945: The Clock, The Miracle of Morgan's Creek, The Lost Weekend.
1946-1947: Miracle On 34th Street, The Ghost and Mrs Muir, The Bicycle Thief.
1948-1949: Rope, State of the Union, White Heat.

Continued in the next post.

Read through your lists rather quickly. Don't see any movies made by most foreign directors, including Bergman, Kurosawa, Ray, Wajda. (Have a look at Katyn from the last named). Don't know which version of Moon and Sixpence you refer to. But I reread the book after many years, and was dumbfounded by the stupid plot/story. I should add that overall I regard Maugham as one of the greatest short story writers in English - just ranked below Maupassant, Tolstoy, and Chekov, when other languages are included. I was surprised by your comments about The Ten Commandments - Charlton Heston playing Moses for starters! Take a look at Michelangelo's Moses in San Pietro in Vincoli, Rome, and see if that is the guy you see in the movie.

[Marlow]

Take a look at Michelangelo's Moses in San Pietro in Vincoli, Rome, and see if that is the guy you see in the movie.

Um . . . uh . . . I'm pretty sure Michaelangelo did not have Moses pose for the statue. The statue is way cool (I've even been there to see it) and everything, but . . .

[gh]

T&FN co-owner Ed Fox has been rating his movies seen since the late '50s.

But my choice for ultimate geek is the T&FN tour member from Washington who is well into his goal of watching every Oscar-nominated acting appearance ever.

[catson52]

Take a look at Michelangelo's Moses in San Pietro in Vincoli, Rome, and see if that is the guy you see in the movie.

Um . . . uh . . . I'm pretty sure Michaelangelo did not have Moses pose for the statue. The statue is way cool (I've even been there to see it) and everything, but . . .

Can one prove Moses was a historical figure? I was trying to compare someone from a movie with a much greater "expression" of what he may have been like. Others have also stepped inside San Pietro in Vincoli - I did so in summer 1992.

[Marlow]

Can one prove Moses was a historical figure? I was trying to compare someone from a movie with a much greater "expression" of what he may have been like.

I still don't follow. There's no doubt that the statue is magnificent

http://santitafarella.files.wordpress.c ... =460&h=739

but as long as you're casting real live people to portray him, CH was pretty righteous!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v240/ ... -Moses.jpg

[Master Po]

I saw Vertigo at a Hitchcock retrospective at National Film Theatre the other night

What a load of crap. Totally unconvincing in every way, ridiculous script, ridiculous dialogue, awful over acting but worst of all it was REALLY boring. I didn't care about any of the characters, or the plot which is pretty important in enjoying a film

I was gobsmacked that this was considered a competent piece of film making never mind the best of all time !!

Kim Novak looked great though

Also not a big fan of Vertigo -- probably don't dislike it quite as intensely as mump, but on the highlighted statement, we are in complete agreement.

[Conor Dary]

Read through your lists rather quickly. Don't see any movies made by most foreign directors, including Bergman, Kurosawa, Ray, Wajda. (Have a look at Katyn from the last named).

With a list that includes this I am not surprised...

2011: Sarah Palin's Alaska (complete TV series), Martha Marcy May Marlene, The Undefeated (doc on Sarah Palin)

Only watched one "movie" from this year thus far.....the complete TV series "Life's a Tripp!"...about Bristol Palin and her son Tripp.

Oy...

[aaronk]

I'm a huge movie buff . . .

That may be the Tafny understatement of the year. I have top 10 lists for the last 20 years and thought I had everyone else out-geeked - not even close! T'anx!

Thanks for the compliment!!
Be interesting to compare your top 10's to my top 15's (from the past 20 years).

But like I said, any lists or ratings by INDIVIDUALS are inherently highly......heck, TOTALLY......subjective!!
So since, as they say in Zen.........if a million people looked at one tree, they'd see a million different trees........we could never agree 100%. And with some, as little as 0%. To be able to match just 50% of our choices would make us "a match made in Heaven"!!!

[aaronk]

I'm a huge movie buff, having watched over 4300 movies in my life.
(I have two notebooks with ALL the movies I've seen listed, with their year of release, under various categories.)
I also LOVE to make lists and do ratings.
Thus, I've listed my top 15 movies from each individual year, starting in 1970.
Before that, from 1938 through 1969, I've rated the best movies I've seen in TWO-year groupings (1938-1939, 1940-1941, and so on, through 1968-1969.)
And before THAT, because I'd seen far less movies from the early days, I rated my 15 favorite movies from the beginning of the "sound" era through 1937. (1927-1937.).

Read through your lists rather quickly. Don't see any movies made by most foreign directors, including Bergman, Kurosawa, Ray, Wajda. (Have a look at Katyn from the last named). Don't know which version of Moon and Sixpence you refer to. But I reread the book after many years, and was dumbfounded by the stupid plot/story. I should add that overall I regard Maugham as one of the greatest short story writers in English - just ranked below Maupassant, Tolstoy, and Chekov, when other languages are included. I was surprised by your comments about The Ten Commandments - Charlton Heston playing Moses for starters! Take a look at Michelangelo's Moses in San Pietro in Vincoli, Rome, and see if that is the guy you see in the movie.

I'll reply to both your points.
Re Heston as Moses, or my choice of "Commandments" as my #1 A-T movie.....as I noted, my lists, or those of ANY individual, are subjective.
Two people will probably never totally agree on ANYTHING when it comes to choices in personal taste. Not even husbands and wives!! (Maybe ESPECIALLY husbands and wives!! )

But my choice of "Ten" is because I personally LOVED that movie (Have watched all 4 hours of it more than 50 times!!!).
I didn't choose it because it was historically accurate, or because Heston looked like Moses cloned!!
As someone else said, does even Michaelangelo's version look like Moses??
(BTW, my name is Aaron. I was named after Moses brother!!)

As for those foreign directors, I don't rate a movie based on who directed it, or even by who acted in it.
I rate them by if I was entertained by the movie, if it moved me emotionally in some way (joy, fear, sadness, etc), if it mesmerized me as I watched it.
Just as there are criteria T&FN uses to rate their AOY's, so too does anyone who rates their favorite movies (songs, books, etc) have their OWN criteria.
I have MANY foreign movies on my lists......but not paying attention to director's names, I won't watch a movie based on a NAME (director, actor).

You mentioned "Moon and Sixpence", the movie. Didn't know there's more than 1 version!! Mine is the 1942 movie with George Sanders. It's the story of Gauguin, the artist.

Also, my lists go 15 deep!! I just gave the top 3.

[aaronk]

Read through your lists rather quickly. Don't see any movies made by most foreign directors, including Bergman, Kurosawa, Ray, Wajda. (Have a look at Katyn from the last named).

With a list that includes this I am not surprised...

2011: Sarah Palin's Alaska (complete TV series), Martha Marcy May Marlene, The Undefeated (doc on Sarah Palin)

Only watched one "movie" from this year thus far.....the complete TV series "Life's a Tripp!"...about Bristol Palin and her son Tripp.

Oy...

As I noted, I don't have my TV working, nor do I have my VCR going.
Not since 2007.
Also, I don't go to theaters.
Thus, ALL the movies I've seen this century (!!) have been by VHS or DVD.
Since a movie generally doesn't come out for 6 months to a year AFTER its theatrical release on DVD, I haven't seen ANY 2012 movies yet, though several are on my list to watch them when I can.

As for rating Palin's TV show and movie so highly, it's NOT entirely political!!
If you want to see parts of Alaska you haven't seen (or have!!), watch that show.
Beautiful scenery.
And politics aside, Sarah Palin is a VERY entertaining (and funny!!) person.
(Though if you want to see the detailed TRUTH about Sarah's political career, watch "The Undefeated". It's the opposite of HBO's "Game Change" or most other media portrayals of Palin's career.)

Note that "Martha Marcy May Marlene" splits the 2 Palin features.
It's an EXCELLENT tale of a girl who escapes the cult she's hooked by, goes to live with her sister and her husband, and what happens next.

[Conor Dary]

As for rating Palin's TV show and movie so highly, it's NOT entirely political!!
If you want to see parts of Alaska you haven't seen (or have!!), watch that show.
Beautiful scenery.
And politics aside, Sarah Palin is a VERY entertaining (and funny!!) person.
(Though if you want to see the detailed TRUTH about Sarah's political career, watch "The Undefeated". It's the opposite of HBO's "Game Change" or most other media portrayals of Palin's career.)

I will take your word for it. But I am glad you enjoyed it.

[jeremyp]

In all seriousness, great stuff jeremyp... that may be the best bit of analysis of film analysis I've ever read.

Thank you kind sir!

[catson52]

Aaronk:

The book/story "Moon and Sixpence" is a very loose "adaptation" of Gauguin's life, is full of cliches and impossibilities. May or may not have seen the movie version. I agree that one should not judge a movie by the director's name/reputation. But if you not been moved by a single movie by the four directors I listed, you have missed out on a lot. Went through your list of movies more closely and could find very few ( two or so) that were not in English. The rest of the world is not to be considered, and has not really produced any great movies? I am well aware of who the "first" Aaron was - and what has your name or mine for that matter got to do with movie appreciation?

[no one]

aaronk -

Wow - the list is incredible and the amount of time watching movies is massive. Logistically, how did you do this? I did some wuick math and with your 15 deep list in the time periods shown = 900 movies. Just the movies no repeats (per 50x viewing 10 Commandments and surely there had to be others!). I must develop my stamina!!!! very impressive indeed. Watching is one thing recording and retaining data is another. all hail aaronk ... except gh is claiming to know a worthy foe

[odelltrclan]

Only 13 movies on that list made (at least the original versions) after 1970. We need to see a list of these voters and their ages. It reminds me of all the baseball old timers who reminisce about how great the 40's, 50's & 60's were. To some of these guys the current era players could never stand up to their memories of what was. Is it because their own lives were more exciting to them then and these movies elicit fond memories of the past?

I just find it too unfathomable that the industry reached its creative peak 50 years ago and has been going downhill since.

Some of these movies might be good, some maybe even great, but I bet the vast majority are best used for treating insomnia on a late night.

[Marlow]

Thanks for the compliment!!
Be interesting to compare your top 10's to my top 15's (from the past 20 years).

That would only reveal what pedestrian taste I have in the movies I enjoy. On the hand, a have another list of great films I admire as cinematic art, but even that one has The Dark Knight (HL as The Joker) near the top, for which I was roundly booed here, so there ya go!

But . . . here's ten of the best (all are in my Top 20) in no particular order (except #1):

1. Apocalyse Now
One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest
Blade Runner
The Exorcist
Sophie’s Choice
Memento
Alien
To Kill a Mockingbird
Clockwork Orange
Silence of the Lambs