Herb Elliot, 1960 OG 1500m

[deanouk]

And it's not just me "Ryun bashing", as some of you will think. I don't for one minute believe that Aouita ran a 36.1 last 300m in a 3:34 1500 in Grossetto, Italy in 1984, either!

The idea of anyone running 36.1 at the end of a 3:34 or 3:38 1500m is plainly impossible.
When you think that Ovett ran a 12.0 100m stretch in his 3:34 race, but the last 300m was 39.5 secs, and Coe ran a 12.1 last 100m in Moscow (38.6 last 300m), which is the fastest last 100m in any Championship 1500m, how can anyone believe that 2 men put together that sort of speed for 3 times longer? 300m in 36.1 is 3 lots of 12 secs flat.

The fact that no video exists (or does it?) for either Aouita's or Ryun's 36.1, just adds to the mystery. Athletic publications have timed from the wrong line and given inaccurate splits before now (Aouita's 11.7 a case in point), and it was only because there was video evidence of the race that some saw sense and realised it was taken from 90m and not 100m. If they could be 1.4 secs out in 1985, then there is no reason why they couldn't have been as much as that out in 1967. People quote that Ryun RAN 36.4 or 36.1 in that race without ever having seen the race. Don't always believe what you read in books, however reliable you think they are.

[telf]

Have to disagree on that one. Coe ran 21.6 in training at the end of a series of 10. His acceleration off a slow pace was as good as Ovett's and off a fast pace was better.
In my opinion anyway. And of course Coe outkicked Ovett in Moscow 1500.

Don't think there was much between them. For me, the visual impression of Ovett's 11.8 100m round the turn in in Dusseldorf in '77 was unforgettable.

The two H2H 800m in Moscow in '80 and Prague '78 were unsatisfactory races but Ovett won them both.

The Moscow 1500m was, for me, a 700m sprint finish courtesy of Jurgen Straub rather than a 200m kick to suit Ovett.

Yes, Ovett was special in those years, but he was made to look even more special because of the standard of opposition and the fact that the rest of the field invariably played into his hands with slow pace and then a speed up over the last 200m. Moreover, in my mind Ovett was as good if not better in 79 and 80.
As for all these injury problems, when?

I recall lots of niggles and some respiratory problems from early '79 until the bad injury in '81. Maybe my memory is failing.

Perhaps Steve was as good in '79 and '80 but I think the Dusseldorf Ovett of '77 and the Rono vanquishing Ovett of '78 could have run much faster than 3:32 in a paced 1500m race.

From my vantage point, the many post '78 victories over the admirable Thom Wessinghage (sometimes by only a few metres) are not in the same league as the pre '79 version of Ovett.

What is contradictory are the splits he's often credited with. I have recently been having the same discussion on LetsRun, so it is probably easier if I put the same points on here later.]

I understand.

Legendary status can lead to hyperbole and there are not many YouTube videos to support Jim.

Jim's dominance over his rivals in '67 was perhaps greater than that enjoyed by any other miler before or since.

In 1967 when Jim ran 3:33.1 and 3:51.1, only seven men broke 3:40 for 1500m and only 2 ran under 3:56 for the mile.

I sympathise, appreciate and am fully aware of the time inconsistencies but they don't diminish my rating of Jim's greatness.

Markings for 440/400 were not great when generating splits in mile races in US in the '60s and the problem was compounded by the 1500m being run rarely.

If I had a $ or a £ for ever incorrectly reported last lap/ final 200m in T&FN and AW over the last forty years I would be a rich man.

Whether 36.1, 36.4 or 37.1 - Jim beat two renowned world class kickers who were in good form by over 30 yds in a sprint finish.

Coe's 21.6 in a training rep set and Ovett's hand time minor meet 21.7 from blocks (which I don't think was reported until over a decade after) are accepted by you as 100% legitimate whilst most major races Ryun ran are questioned based on relatively minor time inconsistencies in final laps.

That's all folks for me on this thread. I am getting creeped out

[lonewolf]

I don't remember or have access to all of Jim Ryuns stats...I just remember he was a pretty good country runner over a wide range.

[jmd]

Please, be kind with my English, I’m French and my studies are far from now…

Elliott, Ryun, Coe, Ovett…
With those wonderful milers, we are really in the area of myth and legend !

1958 : the 3’40” had just been reached on 1500 m
and the world record was at 3’38”1 by Jungwirth…

Then came Elliott, just 20 years old, and his 3’36”, with a 54” last 400 and
the overall impression that he could not be beaten !

Delany, the 1956 Olympic champion, said something like :
“There’s one way to beat Elliott, it’s by attaching his legs !”

1960 : the same guy came back with 3’35”6, for the Olympic gold
and such an impressive run, reported by everyone and not still forgotten.

Sure, it was another time, with not so much money, advertising or carrier quest !
Nevertheless….

1966 : a wonder kid of 19 years old run 1’44”9 on 880 yards, equalling another myth,
Peter Snell !

1967 : the same kid establishes two new records, 1500 m and the mile !
And a month later, Jim Ryun makes a demonstration of final lap speed against
two German elite runners.
45 years later, we are still admirative about it !
The times are what they are, one, two, three or four 1/10 slower or faster,
I humbly think they still impress everyone even though there was no videos.

1977 to 1984 : a golden generation of British milers equals those legends, beating
a lot of world records and giving us so much interest to their confrontations !
I remember having almost (!!!) run as rapidly than Seb and Steve,
the distance between my office and my house, not to miss the 1500 m final
TV retransmission, in 1980 !

Now, what would have they all done if not ill, not retired, with today conditions, mondo,
dietetics, money, etc…?
No one knows, sure, but still remains the… myths that made us dream,
among some others before, after and, I hope, to come !

[telf]

by jmd » Wed Sep 19, 2012 9:43 am
… myths that made us dream,
among some others before, after and, I hope, to come !

A great first post JMD and your English is clear and very easy to understand.

You perfectly encapsulate why I started contributing to this forum.

[jmd]

Thank you very much, Telf !

[deanouk]

Don't think there was much between them. For me, the visual impression of Ovett's 11.8 100m round the turn in in Dusseldorf in '77 was unforgettable.

Yes, it was an awesome display, but the previous 200 was 29.4, which is v slow in a top 1500 race on the last lap. That was the type of race which Ovett was made for. I don't think he was any less of an athlete in 79 & 80 as he'd been in 77/78, but rather the rest of the world's milers recognised that they had to make it faster in the closing stages before the last 200.
Pulling away from Wessinghage in a 3:34.5 is v different from expecting the same margin of victory in a 3:31.3. Having said that I believe Ovett was capable of sub 3:30 from 78 - 81.

I think I posted earlier that that 11.8 was hand timed by Wilson his coach. When looking at the video it's more like 12.0. One is able to adjust these hand timed splits for races where there is video footage & with Ryun this footage is rarely available.

Jim's dominance over his rivals in '67 was perhaps greater than that enjoyed by any other miler before or since.

quote]

I never doubted or questioned this. He was head and shoulders above his peers.

Markings for 440/400 were not great when generating splits in mile races in US in the '60s and the problem was compounded by the 1500m being run rarely.

If I had a $ or a £ for ever incorrectly reported last lap/ final 200m in T&FN and AW over the last forty years I would be a rich man.

I agree. I think that is where a lot of the inconsistency arises from.

Coe's 21.6 in a training rep set and Ovett's hand time minor meet 21.7 from blocks (which I don't think was reported until over a decade after) are accepted by you as 100% legitimate whilst most major races Ryun ran are questioned based on relatively minor time inconsistencies in final laps.

That's a fair point. I think 21.7 seems a bit fast for someone with a 400 pb of 47.4 at the time.
Coe split 22.0 in his 45.6 relay leg from a practical standing start so that is good evidence to back up claims of what he was doing in training.

I have never questioned Ryun's final times in "major races", only some of the splits in some of the races for which there is no or limited video documentation.

Neither do I doubt Ryun was capable of a 21.6 & 46.9 relay legs. What I do question is when someone can use these relay splits to claim he was a 45 sec quarter miler. You don't run more than a second faster in an open 400 based on a best relay split.
Coe ran a 45.5 relay split in 79 and a 45.6 (from a stumbling start/takeover) in 81, for which there is video evidence, & anyone can go onto Youtube to check the validity of the times.
That does not mean he was a 44 sec 400m runner. The relay splits tell us he was capable of somewhere between 45.5 - 46.0 in an open 400 in 81.

[tandfman]

There's a piece that's still in the Day''s Best Reading section of the front page--you may have to scroll down. Two veteran journalists are engaged in a serious discussion of who was the greatest miler in history. The name Herb Elliott is not mentioned!

[telf]

There's a piece that's still in the Day''s Best Reading section of the front page--you may have to scroll down. Two veteran journalists are engaged in a serious discussion of who was the greatest miler in history. The name Herb Elliott is not mentioned!

The unintentional metaphysical article made me smile as I started asking myself the question, can something exist without being perceived?

Perhaps Herb Elliott and Peter Snell are figments of my imagination

Perhaps 20 years from now Coe and Ovett will be figments of my imagination

On a slightly more serious note, Neil Wilson has been the athletics correspondent for the tabloid newspaper The Daily Mail for the last 20 years.

Neil seems to be a very nice man and he has a very good recollection of the various sports he has covered since he started writing but I am sure (or is it I hope) that he would be the first to admit that he is certainly not an athletics historian.

I am not aware of Neil Armdur and it find it pretty odd that he could mention Bannister and Landy and then move straight to Ryun but hey-ho.

[kuha]

I too read that piece (quickly, I'll admit) and I wasn't overly impressed. It seemed too biased to (relatively) recent history, and as soon as I see mention of how MANY sub-4 miles someone has run, my eyes start to roll.

[KDFINE]

I read the article and said to myself, "what, no Elliot?" and quickly dismissed what they had to say. By the way, there is an ad running on T.V. for something or another (maybe Verizon) that has a still photo of Elliot from the 1960 games in it for a fraction of a second.