Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY?? [or Merritt?!]


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Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY?? [or Merritt?!]

Postby gibson » Wed Sep 12, 2012 5:27 am

when you look at the above list, you have to say,
it has been a great year for track and field.
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Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY?? [or Merritt?!]

Postby croflash » Wed Sep 12, 2012 6:48 am

gibson wrote:when you look at the above list, you have to say,
it has been a great year for track and field.


Mainly track though. Some field events have been rather underwhelming this season.
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Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY?? [or Merritt?!]

Postby bobguild76 » Wed Sep 12, 2012 8:41 am

mump boy wrote:
bobguild76 wrote:An additional thought regarding AOY ... Barring his disappointing Bronze medal at the Olympics, Reese Hoffa has been quite dominating in the SP. Yes, the bronze is a fair sized blemish (compared to other AOY contenders) on his 2012 record, but he has met the top competition even more than the 110 hurdlers, and has been stellar otherwise.

Honors won - B at OG, DL winner in SP w/ double the points of the runner-up, Majewski,
Won/Loss record - One loss to Majewski & Storl, Perfect (I think) vs everyone else,
Sequence of marks - consistent 21 meter throws. Cantwell has the yearly lead, but Hoffa has the high end consistency.

Easily the top SP, and # 9 or 10 in AOY.


I don't see how someone with OG bronze and other loses gets ranked unless he's done something else outstanding performance wise

Rudisha
Merrit
Eaton
Bolt
Harting
Farah
Lavellenie
Blake
James
Ukhov
A Walker (i have no idea)


must all come before Hoffa


Excellent point. "... and other losses" For me, that's the key. Other than his WIC 4th place, does Hoffa have any other losses? And, will the WIC count in the AOY balloting? If so, he's out. Number one in the SP, but not enough to crack the AOY Top 10.

We must also consider that James & Ukhov have losses on their resume outside the OG. Apart from the OG, Hoffa would be ranked far higher than James or Ukhov. The question then is, How far does the OG Bronze pull Hoffa down - vis a vis James & Ukhov - when it comes to AOY rankings?
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Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY?? [or Merritt?!]

Postby gh » Wed Sep 12, 2012 8:59 am

bobguild76 wrote:A...
Won/Loss record - One loss to Majewski & Storl, Perfect (I think) vs everyone else.


Not quite.
8-3 w/ Majewski
3-3 w/ Storl
10-1 w/ Whiting
8-1 w/ Cantwell
4-1 w/ Nelson
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Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY?? [or Merritt?!]

Postby dbirds » Wed Sep 12, 2012 10:03 am

dbirds wrote:
The question is: how do you rank a false start? On paper, it's last place but really it's not. Thoughts??

How could it be anything but last place? 7 guys crossed the line ahead of you, and it's your fault you weren't there, not theirs.


On paper, it is an 8th place finish but not in everyone's heads. A FS is not the same as finishing last. If Merritt had 2 last place losses, he would not be in contention for AOY.
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Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY?? [or Merritt?!]

Postby EPelle » Wed Sep 12, 2012 10:06 am

Either way, he failed to win a race he started.
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Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY?? [or Merritt?!]

Postby kuha » Wed Sep 12, 2012 10:13 am

How could it be anything but last place? 7 guys crossed the line ahead of you, and it's your fault you weren't there, not theirs.


I just don't see this. A false start ends up being a DNS, or at very worst, a DNF--vastly different from 8th place.
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Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY?? [or Merritt?!]

Postby gh » Wed Sep 12, 2012 10:20 am

bobguild76 wrote:...
Same this year. Merritt's 12.80 puts a sharp tip on the finest hurdling season since Hot-Rod Milburn took AOY in 1971. (Slightly better than Skeets in 1981.) According to the Jan 1972 AOY edition of T&FN (page 4), Milburn's AAU semi-final in 1971 was auto-timed in 12.94. gh, could you correct me if that has changed? ...


That's an artifact from the days when people tended to coinflate 100th-second timing with "automatic." It was not. That's a hand-time taken off a Datatimer, which is probably worse than regular hand timing because the same person isn't starting and stopping the clock.
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Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY?? [or Merritt?!]

Postby bobguild76 » Wed Sep 12, 2012 11:35 am

gh wrote:
bobguild76 wrote:A...
Won/Loss record - One loss to Majewski & Storl, Perfect (I think) vs everyone else.


Not quite.
8-3 w/ Majewski
3-3 w/ Storl
10-1 w/ Whiting
8-1 w/ Cantwell
4-1 w/ Nelson


Thanks gh! I just moved back from South Africa and didn't have my T&FN's to double check. Talk about feeling naked & unprepared! In that case, Hoffa doesn't merit consideration for the Top 10.

Thanks also for the update regarding Rod Milburn's 13.0h from 1971. In those days, we always added .14 (or was it .24?) to the hand timed to equal an auto time. Therefore, a 13.0h would translate to a 13.14 (or a 13.24), not a 12.94.
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Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY?? [or Merritt?!]

Postby aaronk » Wed Sep 12, 2012 3:28 pm

IF...IF Merritt should be chosen the AOY, I hope T&FN does NOT headline the article.....

"Aries Merritt's AOY"!!

:P
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Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY?? [or Merritt?!]

Postby iggy » Wed Sep 12, 2012 7:39 pm

I wanted to post first. and then read! so i apologize if someone has already noted similarly.

I will say Merritt for AOY simple because of his season as a whole. The most sub 13 races clocked in a single season by one individual in hurdle history and to conclude it with a WR of 12.80!!!! WOW!
I would award Eaton for POY, PERFORMANCE of the year at the USA OTs! 10.20 and then 27ft minutes later.then having to PR by 4 seconds i believe in the 1500 for the WR.... just GREAT!

And as for Rudisha, despite his loss (i mean, damn, the dude is tired, he is human! cant knock him on that) he is a TIGHT second for best performance of the year. The guy not only dropped the WR to 1.40 but he lead the ENTIRE field to PRs and NRs!
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Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY?? [or Merritt?!]

Postby croflash » Wed Sep 12, 2012 10:16 pm

kuha wrote:
How could it be anything but last place? 7 guys crossed the line ahead of you, and it's your fault you weren't there, not theirs.


I just don't see this. A false start ends up being a DNS, or at very worst, a DNF--vastly different from 8th place.


It is different because a false start is worse than finishing in last place. If someone has a false start, I don't see how that can be considered a DNS when he was physically present at the start line. It is like a false attempt for a field eventer, except that you only get one chance as a runner. Projecting a result based on the past is fine, but the athlete needs to prove it every single time. Everything else is speculation based on probabilities.
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Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY?? [or Merritt?!]

Postby Dave » Sun Oct 28, 2012 10:31 am

hmm. Merritt is on this months cover. I wonder if that means he is going to be AOY?

This year is an embarrassment of riches for a men's perspective.
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Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY?? [or Merritt?!]

Postby tandfman » Sun Oct 28, 2012 1:31 pm

Dave wrote:hmm. Merritt is on this months cover. I wonder if that means he is going to be AOY?

I doubt that it means anything more than that it was a picture of the most important race that occurred in the period between the publication of the last issue and the publication of this one.
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Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY?? [or Merritt?!]

Postby gh » Sun Oct 28, 2012 1:33 pm

since the ballot haven't even gone out to the voters yet, it's indicative of nothing in the AOY department.

If we knew that he was the AOY we'd probably be LESS likely to use him now than moreso.
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Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY?? [or Merritt?!]

Postby ATK » Sun Oct 28, 2012 1:36 pm

Dave wrote:hmm. Merritt is on this months cover. I wonder if that means he is going to be AOY?

Means he had a post Olympic performance, worthy of the cover.
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Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY?? [or Merritt?!]

Postby Dave » Mon Oct 29, 2012 6:26 am

ATK wrote:
Dave wrote:hmm. Merritt is on this months cover. I wonder if that means he is going to be AOY?

Means he had a post Olympic performance, worthy of the cover.


An embarrassment of riches this year.....
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Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY?? [or Merritt?!]

Postby br » Mon Oct 29, 2012 7:06 am

Dave wrote:
ATK wrote:
Dave wrote:hmm. Merritt is on this months cover. I wonder if that means he is going to be AOY?

Means he had a post Olympic performance, worthy of the cover.


An embarrassment of riches this year.....


If not Merritt, who would your choice have been for the November issue?
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Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY?? [or Merritt?!]

Postby mump boy » Tue Nov 06, 2012 2:15 am

So the IAAF finalists are in

Usain Bolt
Aries Merrit
David Rusdisha

http://www.iaaf.org/news/press-release/ ... -mens-fina
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Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY?? [or Merritt?!]

Postby Dave » Wed Nov 07, 2012 7:03 am

br wrote:
Dave wrote:
ATK wrote:
Dave wrote:hmm. Merritt is on this months cover. I wonder if that means he is going to be AOY?

Means he had a post Olympic performance, worthy of the cover.


An embarrassment of riches this year.....


If not Merritt, who would your choice have been for the November issue?


No idea. I had no issue with him being on the cover, I just thought it might portend being the AOY. Looks like it portends nothing.
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Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY?? [or Merritt?!]

Postby Dave » Wed Nov 07, 2012 7:05 am

mump boy wrote:So the IAAF finalists are in

Usain Bolt
Aries Merrit
David Rusdisha

http://www.iaaf.org/news/press-release/ ... -mens-fina


Wow. Merrit and Rudisha are obvious. I do think they are missing someone here....



[spelling correction]
Last edited by Dave on Fri Nov 09, 2012 9:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY?? [or Merritt?!]

Postby j-a-m » Wed Nov 07, 2012 7:29 am

Dave wrote:Wow. Merrit and Rudish are obvious. I do think they are missing someone here....

Yeah, not sure what the IAAF criteria are, maybe they don't take WRs in multi events into consideration ...
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Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY?? [or Merritt?!]

Postby toyracer » Wed Nov 07, 2012 8:04 am

It seems to me that Bolt's name is there simply because he's Bolt. In my opinion Bolt doesn't deserve consideration over Eaton. Bolt lost, twice. No individual world record.

In any case, I'm pulling for Merritt.
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Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY?? [or Merritt?!]

Postby Tuariki » Wed Nov 07, 2012 7:54 pm

toyracer wrote:It seems to me that Bolt's name is there simply because he's Bolt. In my opinion Bolt doesn't deserve consideration over Eaton. Bolt lost, twice. No individual world record.

In any case, I'm pulling for Merritt.


Unfortunately, I think Eaton suffers from a lack of performances which is always a problem for athletes in the multi events, as it is for those in the marathon.

Bolt had a pretty good year, 3 x gold, 1 x OR(ind), 1 x WR (team), 1 x OR team; 2nd fastest 100 in history; 4th= fastest 200 in history.

Eaton has 1 x gold; 1 x WR (ind); plus 8th best performance in history and no OR.

Against Eaton I think Bolt is ahead.

I think Merrit should be AOY. Rudisha #2, Bolt #3, Eaton #4.

I think Mo Farah is #5.
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Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY?? [or Merritt?!]

Postby Daisy » Wed Nov 07, 2012 8:07 pm

Tuariki wrote:I think Mo Farah is #5.

But given the immense pressure he was under...... ;)
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Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY?? [or Merritt?!]

Postby Tuariki » Wed Nov 07, 2012 8:41 pm

Daisy wrote:
Tuariki wrote:I think Mo Farah is #5.

But given the immense pressure he was under...... ;)

True that - he had double the immense what with relatives traversing the desert sands of the horn of Africa to watch it on the nearest TV
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Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY?? [or Merritt?!]

Postby nianchengyu » Wed Nov 07, 2012 10:26 pm

Eaton is even not in the top3, :? huge unfair foe him,who else can break hep and dec in the same season?
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Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY?? [or Merritt?!]

Postby ZELLGADISS » Fri Nov 09, 2012 2:50 pm

Bolt will win AOY.
One thing that i dont understand is that for some people is more important to get WR(although the old WR is not super great)that 2nd best time in history(9.63 Bolt)when the WR is super great.

I know points IAAF for each event, and 9.63 is very very far of times in other events.
9.63 is around 1.39.61 in 800m and 12.57 in 110 hurdles(iaaf tables 2011, now it would be almost same i imagine).
It means that the WR in 100 for Bolt is very near of human limit while the other events are far yet.

So this my point of view, WR because is WR not mean that is better that other time in other event being wonderful time.

Regards :wink:
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Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY?? [or Merritt?!]

Postby 26mi235 » Fri Nov 09, 2012 10:36 pm

ZELLGADISS wrote:Bolt will win AOY.
One thing that i dont understand is that for some people is more important to get WR(although the old WR is not super great)that 2nd best time in history(9.63 Bolt)when the WR is super great.

I know points IAAF for each event, and 9.63 is very very far of times in other events.
9.63 is around 1.39.61 in 800m and 12.57 in 110 hurdles(iaaf tables 2011, now it would be almost same i imagine).
It means that the WR in 100 for Bolt is very near of human limit while the other events are far yet.

So this my point of view, WR because is WR not mean that is better that other time in other event being wonderful time.

Regards :wink:


Well, that 9.63 is the same as a 12.57 110h tells us more about the shortcomings of the IAAF tables than it does about the relative merit of the performance levels. I suspect those with a lot of knowledge of the events would likely be of the same opinion. I expect to never see a 12.57, which is about 0.3 fast than the prior WR while several others have already run 9.6x. And, it almost certainly is at best Bolt's third best 100m, as I doubt that this effort was better than his last Olympic victory.
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Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY?? [or Merritt?!]

Postby ZELLGADISS » Sat Nov 10, 2012 5:22 am

26mi235, the 110 hurdles was very stopped, with no really sprinters in this event(yes i know that is hurdles too).
But only 0.06 improvement in 30 years¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡
Really very few improvement, int this moment the hurdles should to be sub 12.7 sure.

5 years ago only, in 100 was almost impossible to get sub 9.8, and now Bolt gets more or less easy and sub 9.6 too. It is amazing.
And in big championship almost nobody to gets sub 9.8, and Bolt make it very very easy.

I think that the people should to understand that a great time when WR is super great is better that a WR where the old WR is not super great.

It is a big difference, a WR because is WR is not always better that other wonderful time in other event.

Regards
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Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY?? [or Merritt?!]

Postby ATK » Sat Nov 10, 2012 5:42 am

ZELLGADISS wrote:Bolt will win AOY.


If he does, it wont be because of his performances during the year, it will be because of his name...
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Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY?? [or Merritt?!]

Postby ZELLGADISS » Sat Nov 10, 2012 8:35 am

ATK wrote:
ZELLGADISS wrote:Bolt will win AOY.


If he does, it wont be because of his performances during the year, it will be because of his name...


That is YOUR opinion.
In my opinion NO.
NAME?
3 golds in OG by 2nd time consecutive, it is name?(Nobody made it before)
olympic record in 100m, it is name?
The best time in the history in 200m too for somebody not called BOLT in a big championship(tied with Johnson, although Bolt made it jogging last 10m).
WR in 4x100m
Champion undefeteaded in Diamond in 100m(in 200 he won all his races in diamond too).

The hightest points IAAF(IAAF TABLES) in all events with BIG difference.

Is it NAME?

Yes, sure that he will win because he is called BOLT.
Sometimes looks that some people is blind ...
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Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY?? [or Merritt?!]

Postby bushop » Sat Nov 10, 2012 9:12 am

ATK wrote:
ZELLGADISS wrote:Bolt will win AOY.
If he does, it wont be because of his performances during the year, it will be because of his name...
ZELLGADISS wrote:That is YOUR opinion.
Of course it is... whose else would they be?
ZELLGADISS wrote:3 golds in OG
Two individual
ZELLGADISS wrote:2nd time consecutive,
Shouldn't matter
ZELLGADISS wrote:WR in 4x100m
Shouldn't matter.
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Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY?? [or Merritt?!]

Postby ZELLGADISS » Sat Nov 10, 2012 10:17 am

bushop for you ALL it no counts.
For who votes YES counts.
So probably he will win :wink:

The performances this year for Bolt are enought for to win again.
I dont understand so many haters for Bolt.
Bolt got some incredible this year.
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Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY?? [or Merritt?!]

Postby ATK » Sat Nov 10, 2012 11:12 am

ZELLGADISS wrote:bushop for you ALL it no counts.
For who votes YES counts.
So probably he will win :wink:

The performances this year for Bolt are enought for to win again.
I dont understand so many haters for Bolt.
Bolt got some incredible this year.

Compared to Rudisha, Merrit and Eaton(considering the event he is in) his year was just pretty good.
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Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY?? [or Merritt?!]

Postby ZELLGADISS » Sat Nov 10, 2012 1:08 pm

ATK it is sure your opinion and you know mine too.
But please, you dont try put your opinion like UNIVERSAL.
The people that will vote for this award if they vote to Bolt will be because they think that Bolt was the best(and for me and other people he was the best).

And you saw that he got great performances.
for you others got better performances?ok is your opinion
Other people dont think it.
To tell that if Bolt wins is because is BOLT, it is hater in my opinion.
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Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY?? [or Merritt?!]

Postby ATK » Sat Nov 10, 2012 2:08 pm

ZELLGADISS wrote:ATK it is sure your opinion and you know mine too.
But please, you dont try put your opinion like UNIVERSAL.
The people that will vote for this award if they vote to Bolt will be because they think that Bolt was the best(and for me and other people he was the best).

And you saw that he got great performances.
for you others got better performances?ok is your opinion
Other people dont think it.
To tell that if Bolt wins is because is BOLT, it is hater in my opinion.

This isn't Gymnastics or Synchronized swimming. This is track and field.
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Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY?? [or Merritt?!]

Postby ZELLGADISS » Sat Nov 10, 2012 2:29 pm

I know perfectly that is track and field.
And if Bolt wins will not be by his name, and yes by his great season.
3 golds again by 2nd OG consecutive(nobody made it before), olympic record in 100,WR in 4x100,fantastic time in 200m(nobody , only Bolt, made better time in a big championship in the history),and undefetead in diamond in 100 and 200(winning diamond in 100).

In adittion his times in 100,200 or 4x100 are a lot of better that WR 110 hurdles or 800 in points IAAF(Tables IAAF with puntuation in each event)

For somebody here all this is worst that the Merritt and Rudisha?Ok are OPINIONS.
We will see soon the decision in the votes of proffesionals :wink:
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Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY?? [or Merritt?!]

Postby ATK » Sat Nov 10, 2012 4:04 pm

ZELLGADISS wrote:In adittion his times in 100,200 or 4x100 are a lot of better that WR 110 hurdles or 800 in points IAAF(Tables IAAF with puntuation in each event)


26mi235 wrote:Well, that 9.63 is the same as a 12.57 110h tells us more about the shortcomings of the IAAF tables than it does about the relative merit of the performance levels. I suspect those with a lot of knowledge of the events would likely be of the same opinion. I expect to never see a 12.57, which is about 0.3 fast than the prior WR while several others have already run 9.6x. And, it almost certainly is at best Bolt's third best 100m, as I doubt that this effort was better than his last Olympic victory.
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Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY?? [or Merritt?!]

Postby 26mi235 » Sat Nov 10, 2012 10:36 pm

ZELLGADISS wrote:26mi235, the 110 hurdles was very stopped, with no really sprinters in this event(yes i know that is hurdles too).
But only 0.06 improvement in 30 years¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡
Really very few improvement, int this moment the hurdles should to be sub 12.7 sure.


You are drawing exactly the wrong conclusion from these statistics. The fact that the time was so difficult to better by very much reflects inherent constraints in the event. Specifically, whereas Bolt can extend his stride so that he is only taking 42 or so strides for the race, the placement of the hurdles makes it essentially impossible (unless you can take two steps and alternate, which no one ever has been able to do in even part of a fast race, as far as I know).

Thus, 7 steps to the first hurdle, 3+1 for the next nine hurdles, then about six or seven to the finish => 7 + 36 + 7, about 50 steps. Now, what if they said that to run the 100m you had to take 50 steps and almost forty had to be essentially exactly a prescribed distance (and if you are more than a few centimeters off you get a bunch of time added to your total and probably get knocked out of the race entirely.

To see an additional element, if the 1000m sprinters get a 5mps tailwind, they will go about 0.25 faster. However, in the hurdles, a 5mps wind might actually make a great race (e.g., the 12.80 type) into a disaster.

Basically that 'equivalent' time is something that I never expect to see, and I do not expect my daughter to see.

You can vote for whomever you want, but I do not think that you are convincing a lot of posters here to your position.
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