Columnist looks at "trolls" who are anti-Armstrong


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Re: Lance Armstrong. Usain Bolt, "Hussein Obama II" stripped

Postby Conor Dary » Thu Sep 06, 2012 10:35 am

odelltrclan wrote:
One thing in Hamilton's book was a comment that many believed there was a level playing if all riders were doping, and maybe to some extent that is true. However, he mentioned that doctors told him that is not necessarily the case because athletes bodies respond to the "chemical infusion" differently and that certain athletes have a better result and advantage where others bodies do not respond as well.


That sure is convenient on Hamilton's part. Nameless doctors, without any evidence, who claim that some benefit and others don't. We sure can believe Hamilton....

As for the USADA they also claim that they are a non-governmental agency, which is funny since they get most of their money from the US government. :roll:

http://www.usada.org/files/pdfs/press-kit.pdf

USADA went after LA because he is a high profile celebrity with enemies.
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Re: Lance Armstrong. Usain Bolt, "Hussein Obama II" stripped

Postby odelltrclan » Thu Sep 06, 2012 10:39 am

jazzcyclist wrote:I think one way to guage how clean the sport is is by comparing the cyclists times up the traditional climbs to prior years' times. Last year's climbs in the Tour were the slowest in over a decade.


I don't know for sure if this is true or not because I did not watch much of the tour this year but someone on the Cycling News message boards I believe mentioned that they stopped broadcasting power output because Wiggins and Froome were constantly hitting levels from days under suspicion.
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Re: Lance Armstrong. Usain Bolt, "Hussein Obama II" stripped

Postby Conor Dary » Thu Sep 06, 2012 10:41 am

odelltrclan wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote:I think one way to guage how clean the sport is is by comparing the cyclists times up the traditional climbs to prior years' times. Last year's climbs in the Tour were the slowest in over a decade.


I don't know for sure if this is true or not because I did not watch much of the tour this year but someone on the Cycling News message boards I believe mentioned that they stopped broadcasting power output because Wiggins and Froome were constantly hitting levels from days under suspicion.


Someone from a message board? Solid evidence there....
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Re: Lance Armstrong. Usain Bolt, "Hussein Obama II" stripped

Postby jazzcyclist » Thu Sep 06, 2012 10:47 am

Conor Dary wrote:
odelltrclan wrote:However, he mentioned that doctors told him that is not necessarily the case because athletes bodies respond to the "chemical infusion" differently and that certain athletes have a better result and advantage where others bodies do not respond as well.


That sure is convenient on Hamilton's part. Nameless doctors, without any evidence, who claim that some benefit and others don't. We sure can believe Hamilton....

I don't see what's so controversial about this. I believe pego and/or bambam have said the same thing about athletes bodies responding differently to PED's. This seems pretty elemental to me.
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Re: Lance Armstrong. Usain Bolt, "Hussein Obama II" stripped

Postby Dutra5 » Thu Sep 06, 2012 11:11 am

jazzcyclist wrote:
Conor Dary wrote:
odelltrclan wrote:However, he mentioned that doctors told him that is not necessarily the case because athletes bodies respond to the "chemical infusion" differently and that certain athletes have a better result and advantage where others bodies do not respond as well.


That sure is convenient on Hamilton's part. Nameless doctors, without any evidence, who claim that some benefit and others don't. We sure can believe Hamilton....

I don't see what's so controversial about this. I believe pego and/or bambam have said the same thing about athletes bodies responding differently to PED's. This seems pretty elemental to me.


Victor Conte has stated the same IIRC
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Re: Lance Armstrong. Usain Bolt, "Hussein Obama II" stripped

Postby Conor Dary » Thu Sep 06, 2012 12:35 pm

jazzcyclist wrote:
I don't see what's so controversial about this. I believe pego and/or bambam have said the same thing about athletes bodies responding differently to PED's. This seems pretty elemental to me.


Obviously people are going to react to anything differently. When a Sherpa, who had climbed Everest 10 times, died in an avalanche, a doctor on NPR said the guy had a hematocrit of 70! So obviously EPO would not help him much.

But what is Hamilton's point? That drugs didn't help him? Who do they help?
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Re: Lance Armstrong. Usain Bolt, "Hussein Obama II" stripped

Postby Marlow » Thu Sep 06, 2012 12:43 pm

Conor Dary wrote:But what is Hamilton's point? That drugs didn't help him?

Irrelevant. Did he dope? Case closed. Next case.
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Re: Lance Armstrong. Usain Bolt, "Hussein Obama II" stripped

Postby Conor Dary » Thu Sep 06, 2012 12:51 pm

Marlow wrote:
Conor Dary wrote:But what is Hamilton's point? That drugs didn't help him?

Irrelevant. Did he dope? Case closed. Next case.


I know.
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Re: Lance Armstrong. Usain Bolt, "Hussein Obama II" stripped

Postby jazzcyclist » Thu Sep 06, 2012 12:57 pm

Conor Dary wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote:
I don't see what's so controversial about this. I believe pego and/or bambam have said the same thing about athletes bodies responding differently to PED's. This seems pretty elemental to me.


Obviously people are going to react to anything differently. When a Sherpa, who had climbed Everest 10 times, died in an avalanche, a doctor on NPR said the guy had a hematocrit of 70! So obviously EPO would not help him much.

But what is Hamilton's point? That drugs didn't help him? Who do they help?

I think his point was that the peleton rationalization, that they were riding on a level playing since everybody was doping, isn't necessarily true. The difference in response doesn't have to be that great for it to matter in a 4000K bike race. For example if one rider's VO2 Max increases by 10% from taking EPO and another rider's VO2 Max increases by 11% from the same dosage, you're talking significant time gains over three weeks and 90 hours of riding.
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Re: Lance Armstrong. Usain Bolt, "Hussein Obama II" stripped

Postby Conor Dary » Thu Sep 06, 2012 1:03 pm

jazzcyclist wrote:
I think his point was that the peleton rationalization, that they were riding on a level playing since everybody was doping, isn't necessarily true. The difference in response doesn't have to be that great for it to matter in a 4000K bike race. For example if one rider's VO2 Max increases by 10% from taking EPO and another rider's VO2 Max increases by 11% from the same dosage, you're talking significant time gains over three weeks and 90 hours of riding.


Okay, so what?
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Re: Lance Armstrong. Usain Bolt, "Hussein Obama II" stripped

Postby jazzcyclist » Thu Sep 06, 2012 1:13 pm

Conor Dary wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote:
I think his point was that the peleton rationalization, that they were riding on a level playing since everybody was doping, isn't necessarily true. The difference in response doesn't have to be that great for it to matter in a 4000K bike race. For example if one rider's VO2 Max increases by 10% from taking EPO and another rider's VO2 Max increases by 11% from the same dosage, you're talking significant time gains over three weeks and 90 hours of riding.


Okay, so what?

I realize this is a sore subject for you, but no one is forcing to read this thread.
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Re: Lance Armstrong. Usain Bolt, "Hussein Obama II" stripped

Postby odelltrclan » Thu Sep 06, 2012 1:46 pm

Marlow wrote:
Conor Dary wrote:But what is Hamilton's point? That drugs didn't help him?

Irrelevant. Did he dope? Case closed. Next case.


What is your point? The issue of the book is doping in cycling, not Lance Armstrong, not Tyler Hamilton, but the culture of the sport. Of course the drugs helped him. He has admitted that. The point, as Jazz mentioned, is the rationalization by cyclists and general public of the "so what" they were all doing it. So they created their own level playing field, when that is NOT true. Since different athletes respond differently to drugs the king of the doping era would not necessarily be king if they were all clean. Taking it a step further, people say, well, if they were all clean, Armstrong would be champion still, when there is a very good chance that is not true.

Look at how many tours it took Armstrong to even finish one. Then you look at a guy like LeMond who finished 3rd in his first tour, 2nd in his second where he believes he could have won if not a domestique for Hinault before winning in his third year. When you see things like that you wonder how much of Armstrong's success was talent.
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Re: Lance Armstrong. Usain Bolt, "Hussein Obama II" stripped

Postby jazzcyclist » Thu Sep 06, 2012 2:07 pm

odelltrclan wrote:Taking it a step further, people say, well, if they were all clean, Armstrong would be champion still, when there is a very good chance that is not true.

Look at how many tours it took Armstrong to even finish one. Then you look at a guy like LeMond who finished 3rd in his first tour, 2nd in his second where he believes he could have won if not a domestique for Hinault before winning in his third year. When you see things like that you wonder how much of Armstrong's success was talent.

But remember that according to Frankie Andreu's testimony, Armstrong was doping even in his pre-cancer years when he was just a Tour also ran. And I wouldn't make too much of him abandoning the Tour when he was young since Indurain did the same thing when he was young. Also, he returned from cancer 20 pounds lighter than before and that makes a big difference in the mountains. I doubt that the difference is so dramatic that it would turn a journeyman into a Grand Tour winner.

Just look at baseball, back in the 80's before steroids became prevalent, Barry Bonds was winning MVP's and Roger Clemens was winning Cy Young awards.
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Re: Lance Armstrong. Usain Bolt, "Hussein Obama II" stripped

Postby odelltrclan » Thu Sep 06, 2012 2:35 pm

Conor Dary wrote:
odelltrclan wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote:I think one way to guage how clean the sport is is by comparing the cyclists times up the traditional climbs to prior years' times. Last year's climbs in the Tour were the slowest in over a decade.


I don't know for sure if this is true or not because I did not watch much of the tour this year but someone on the Cycling News message boards I believe mentioned that they stopped broadcasting power output because Wiggins and Froome were constantly hitting levels from days under suspicion.


Someone from a message board? Solid evidence there....


Evidence for what? I was just making a comment that someone had concerning the TV stopping mid race in showing wattage generated by the riders. Those people were just curious. This is not meant to be evidence of anything. Someone is searching for something to be touchy about!
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Re: Lance Armstrong. Usain Bolt, "Hussein Obama II" stripped

Postby Conor Dary » Thu Sep 06, 2012 3:18 pm

odelltrclan wrote:

Evidence for what? I was just making a comment that someone had concerning the TV stopping mid race in showing wattage generated by the riders. Those people were just curious. This is not meant to be evidence of anything. Someone is searching for something to be touchy about!


Nothing touchy, but who really cares about gossip from another message board. It is just a lot of hot air.
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Re: Lance Armstrong. Usain Bolt, "Hussein Obama II" stripped

Postby Conor Dary » Thu Sep 06, 2012 3:21 pm

odelltrclan wrote:

Look at how many tours it took Armstrong to even finish one. Then you look at a guy like LeMond who finished 3rd in his first tour, 2nd in his second where he believes he could have won if not a domestique for Hinault before winning in his third year. When you see things like that you wonder how much of Armstrong's success was talent.


How do we know LeMond was clean? Because he said so?
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Re: Lance Armstrong. Usain Bolt, "Hussein Obama II" stripped

Postby jazzcyclist » Thu Sep 06, 2012 3:33 pm

Conor Dary wrote:
odelltrclan wrote:

Look at how many tours it took Armstrong to even finish one. Then you look at a guy like LeMond who finished 3rd in his first tour, 2nd in his second where he believes he could have won if not a domestique for Hinault before winning in his third year. When you see things like that you wonder how much of Armstrong's success was talent.


How do we know LeMond was clean? Because he said so?

Good point. What I find amusing is these sanctimonious baseball writers who have pledged to keep all steroid users out of the Hall of Fame, but chances are that some steroid users are already in the Hall of Fame. I even remember one of these holier-than-thou hacks (Mike Lupica perhaps?) saying that he would be so glad when Alex Rodriguez surpassed Barry Bonds so that a clean baseball player would once again hold the record, only to have Rodriguez's name show up on the Mitchell Report a few months later.
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Re: Lance Armstrong. Usain Bolt, "Hussein Obama II" stripped

Postby Conor Dary » Thu Sep 06, 2012 3:50 pm

jazzcyclist wrote:
Good point. What I find amusing is these sanctimonious baseball writers who have pledged to keep all steroid users out of the Hall of Fame, but chances are that some steroid users are already in the Hall of Fame. I even remember one of these holier-than-thou hacks (Mike Lupica perhaps?) saying that he would be so glad when Alex Rodriguez surpassed Barry Bonds so that a clean baseball player would once again hold the record, only to have Rodriguez's name show up on the Mitchell Report a few months later.


Yes, the sanctimonious baseball writer, sports equivalent of the College of Cardinals. I remember that nonsense about the 'clean' Rodriquez.
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Re: Lance Armstrong. Usain Bolt, "Hussein Obama II" stripped

Postby odelltrclan » Thu Sep 06, 2012 4:52 pm

Conor Dary wrote:
odelltrclan wrote:

Look at how many tours it took Armstrong to even finish one. Then you look at a guy like LeMond who finished 3rd in his first tour, 2nd in his second where he believes he could have won if not a domestique for Hinault before winning in his third year. When you see things like that you wonder how much of Armstrong's success was talent.


How do we know LeMond was clean? Because he said so?


Of course no one knows anything for sure about anyone, but LeMond showed talent above and beyond the norm, even for an elite cyclist as "normal" and his era predated the EPO era. I would be likely to believe him 100 times before believing Armstrong.
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Re: Lance Armstrong. Usain Bolt, "Hussein Obama II" stripped

Postby Marlow » Thu Sep 06, 2012 4:58 pm

odelltrclan wrote:LeMond showed talent above and beyond the norm, even for an elite cyclist as "normal" and his era predated the EPO era. I would be likely to believe him 100 times before believing Armstrong.

Sadly, not I. Blood doping (Lasse Viren, mid-70s) anyone?
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Re: Lance Armstrong. Usain Bolt, "Hussein Obama II" stripped

Postby Conor Dary » Thu Sep 06, 2012 5:22 pm

Marlow wrote:
odelltrclan wrote:LeMond showed talent above and beyond the norm, even for an elite cyclist as "normal" and his era predated the EPO era. I would be likely to believe him 100 times before believing Armstrong.

Sadly, not I. Blood doping (Lasse Viren, mid-70s) anyone?


Viren! The guy used reindeer milk.
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Re: Lance Armstrong. Usain Bolt, "Hussein Obama II" stripped

Postby Conor Dary » Thu Sep 06, 2012 5:25 pm

odelltrclan wrote:
Conor Dary wrote:
odelltrclan wrote:

Look at how many tours it took Armstrong to even finish one. Then you look at a guy like LeMond who finished 3rd in his first tour, 2nd in his second where he believes he could have won if not a domestique for Hinault before winning in his third year. When you see things like that you wonder how much of Armstrong's success was talent.


How do we know LeMond was clean? Because he said so?


Of course no one knows anything for sure about anyone, but LeMond showed talent above and beyond the norm, even for an elite cyclist as "normal" and his era predated the EPO era. I would be likely to believe him 100 times before believing Armstrong.


What a surprise! 100 times! Why so little? Yes, LeMond GREAT ATHLETE! Makes me weepy! Unlike Armstrong who won a World title at 21. But then Armstrong has enemies and is evil! The antichrist!
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Re: Lance Armstrong. Usain Bolt, "Hussein Obama II" stripped

Postby jazzcyclist » Thu Sep 06, 2012 6:29 pm

odelltrclan wrote:Of course no one knows anything for sure about anyone, but LeMond showed talent above and beyond the norm, even for an elite cyclist as "normal" and his era predated the EPO era. I would be likely to believe him 100 times before believing Armstrong.

Are you implying that Armstrong didn't show trememndous talent when he was young despite that fact that he became the youngest World Champion in history in 1993 at age 21? Seriously? :?

And while EPO might not have been in the peleton in the early 80's when LeMond came onto the scene, how do you know there weren't other drugs that were prevalent? There are a lot of sanctimonious old-time baseball players who remind me of LeMond. They never miss an opportunity to trash the players from the steroid era, despite the fact that their generation popped amphetamines like they were Tac-Tacs. At least players like Bob Gibson and Mike Schmidt are honest enough to admit that probably the only reason they didn't do steroids is because it wasn't prevalent in baseball locker rooms when they played.
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Re: Columnist looks at "trolls" who are anti-Armstrong

Postby 26mi235 » Thu Sep 06, 2012 7:40 pm

Everyone should be reading the articles on/about/by Jonathon Vaughters, the head of Garmin..

One of the things that comes out is that the reason that Armstrong and the rest of the Postal/Discovery/Radio Shack teams did not test positive is that they doped at lower levels. He talks about why he hired guys like Danielson and not Jorge Jascke. One thing he said was that JJ was doping at much higher levels and the drop off clean would be substantial and that he would not readily take the reduced role that his reduced performance would entail while the ex-Postal/Discovery guys were at lower levels and not always limited by that level anyway (in the case of Danielson).

Morally it is essentially the same whether you do it big or small, but in terms of it implications for the delta in performance between doping and not, it is a big deal.

I would say that the recent sequence by JV amounts to the most interesting stuff I have read on doping.
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Re: Columnist looks at "trolls" who are anti-Armstrong

Postby jazzcyclist » Thu Sep 06, 2012 7:50 pm

I posted about the Vaughters revelations on the other thread. He spilled the beans on the cyclingnews.com message board posting with the username JV1973. Go to page 5 of this thread:

http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?t=18436

Also, Johan Museeuw has confessed to his sins and is calling for the peleton to do a "collective mea culpa".

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/museeuw ... ast-riders
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Re: Columnist looks at "trolls" who are anti-Armstrong

Postby Conor Dary » Fri Sep 07, 2012 7:08 am

26mi235 wrote:
Morally it is essentially the same whether you do it big or small, but in terms of it implications for the delta in performance between doping and not, it is a big deal.


I don't want to attack you 26, but the thing that really makes the whole PED nonsensical is this morality tale. It almost turns it into a religion. Like the USADA on a Crusade..

Nike and Salazar can spend gobs of money on his Portland project in order to improve red blood cell count in a legal way, while some poor runner who does it in some medical, but far cheaper way, is a cheat.

If we looked at the danger, which I think gets overblown, and how to use these things safely we would be far better off.

Interesting about the low level PED use.
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Re: Columnist looks at "trolls" who are anti-Armstrong

Postby gh » Fri Sep 07, 2012 7:36 am

I've merged the two Armstrong threads to keep life simple.
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Re: Columnist looks at "trolls" who are anti-Armstrong

Postby Pego » Fri Sep 07, 2012 9:24 am

Conor Dary wrote:If we looked at the danger, which I think gets overblown, and how to use these things safely we would be far better off.


Exactly. Legalize autotransfusion, put it in the hands of sport hematologists and the problem is solved.
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Re: Columnist looks at "trolls" who are anti-Armstrong

Postby odelltrclan » Fri Sep 07, 2012 10:54 am

Pego wrote:
Conor Dary wrote:If we looked at the danger, which I think gets overblown, and how to use these things safely we would be far better off.


Exactly. Legalize autotransfusion, put it in the hands of sport hematologists and the problem is solved.


It sounds good (autotransfusion) but how safe is it for people who don't have the proper medical care to carry out? Are lesser athletes who can't afford the doctors going to hurt themselves? Sounds too risky.
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Re: Columnist looks at "trolls" who are anti-Armstrong

Postby Dutra5 » Fri Sep 07, 2012 10:59 am

Conor Dary wrote:
26mi235 wrote:
Morally it is essentially the same whether you do it big or small, but in terms of it implications for the delta in performance between doping and not, it is a big deal.


I don't want to attack you 26, but the thing that really makes the whole PED nonsensical is this morality tale. It almost turns it into a religion. Like the USADA on a Crusade...


Absolutely agree. Lance should simply end the charade and come clean and everyone can simply move on.
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Re: Columnist looks at "trolls" who are anti-Armstrong

Postby Conor Dary » Fri Sep 07, 2012 12:07 pm

odelltrclan wrote:
Pego wrote:
Conor Dary wrote:If we looked at the danger, which I think gets overblown, and how to use these things safely we would be far better off.


Exactly. Legalize autotransfusion, put it in the hands of sport hematologists and the problem is solved.


It sounds good (autotransfusion) but how safe is it for people who don't have the proper medical care to carry out? Are lesser athletes who can't afford the doctors going to hurt themselves? Sounds too risky.


Obviously a lot of people are doing it anyways, without any medical supervision, which I suspect is far more riskier.
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Re: Columnist looks at "trolls" who are anti-Armstrong

Postby rsb2 » Fri Sep 07, 2012 12:13 pm

It sucks when pills and needles can count for more than things like talent and hard work. That doesn't sound like sport to me, and I'm guessing I'm not the only one.
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Re: Columnist looks at "trolls" who are anti-Armstrong

Postby Conor Dary » Fri Sep 07, 2012 12:21 pm

rsb2 wrote:It sucks when pills and needles can count for more than things like talent and hard work. That doesn't sound like sport to me, and I'm guessing I'm not the only one.


The morality thing again....And what is so fair about being able to use a 15,000 dollar high altitude chamber to accomplish the same thing.

    Matt Formato, the company's director of business development didn't want to reveal to The Sun the specifics of Hypoxico's deal with Phelps. Just that the company sent him the custom chamber last year and if a mere mortal wanted one like it, it would cost about $15,000.

    The chamber is supposed to work by creating a low-oxygen environment, which forces Phelps' system to work harder -- and essentially train -- even when sleeping.

    Formato said that Tiger Woods is another of their high-profile clients and that a number of endurance runners and boxers also have chambers.

http://articles.baltimoresun.com/2012-0 ... h-altitude

The point is, it is only sport. And besides, when you talk of pills and needles so dismissively, it is obvious you know little about football.
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Re: Columnist looks at "trolls" who are anti-Armstrong

Postby Pego » Fri Sep 07, 2012 1:38 pm

Conor Dary wrote:
odelltrclan wrote:
Pego wrote:
Conor Dary wrote:If we looked at the danger, which I think gets overblown, and how to use these things safely we would be far better off.


Exactly. Legalize autotransfusion, put it in the hands of sport hematologists and the problem is solved.


It sounds good (autotransfusion) but how safe is it for people who don't have the proper medical care to carry out? Are lesser athletes who can't afford the doctors going to hurt themselves? Sounds too risky.


Obviously a lot of people are doing it anyways, without any medical supervision, which I suspect is far more riskier.


Both of you are absolutely correct. None of this stuff is safe just as riding a bike thousands of kilometers through the mountains at breathtaking speeds is not. High quality medical supervision is essential for any of this. If your team cannot afford such necessity, it does not belong there.
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Re: Columnist looks at "trolls" who are anti-Armstrong

Postby rsb2 » Fri Sep 07, 2012 4:10 pm

Conor Dary wrote:
rsb2 wrote:It sucks when pills and needles can count for more than things like talent and hard work. That doesn't sound like sport to me, and I'm guessing I'm not the only one.


The morality thing again....And what is so fair about being able to use a 15,000 dollar high altitude chamber to accomplish the same thing.

    Matt Formato, the company's director of business development didn't want to reveal to The Sun the specifics of Hypoxico's deal with Phelps. Just that the company sent him the custom chamber last year and if a mere mortal wanted one like it, it would cost about $15,000.

    The chamber is supposed to work by creating a low-oxygen environment, which forces Phelps' system to work harder -- and essentially train -- even when sleeping.

    Formato said that Tiger Woods is another of their high-profile clients and that a number of endurance runners and boxers also have chambers.

http://articles.baltimoresun.com/2012-0 ... h-altitude

The point is, it is only sport. And besides, when you talk of pills and needles so dismissively, it is obvious you know little about football.


Au contraire, I know a lot about football, which is why I really don't care much for it. It's just a lions and gladiators type of freak show to me, and the fact that millions of people like their entertainment that way has no effect on me, one way or the other.
And of course, not being a total idiot, I fully realize that other technological "advancements" muddy the waters, just as some athletes being born and living at 8,000 feet or so affords some sort of potential advantage also.
Do I have an easy answer to creating a level playing field? No? But whatever it is, it certainly isn't "f++k" morality, it's "only sport", so who cares what people are willing to do to super-charge their bodies, in order to win at all costs. At what age do you want to start teaching your children that ethic? And what other shortcuts to victory shall we throw into that valueless stew, for their consumption?
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Re: Columnist looks at "trolls" who are anti-Armstrong

Postby Conor Dary » Fri Sep 07, 2012 5:06 pm

rsb2 wrote:

Do I have an easy answer to creating a level playing field? No? But whatever it is, it certainly isn't "f++k" morality, it's "only sport", so who cares what people are willing to do to super-charge their bodies, in order to win at all costs. At what age do you want to start teaching your children that ethic? And what other shortcuts to victory shall we throw into that valueless stew, for their consumption?


Sure it is morality. We are talking about 'cheating', the ultimately morality tale.

You have testing. People get caught and they get kicked out. Fine. It is these silly charades of going after one guy because he is a celebrity and made a few enemies.
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Re: Columnist looks at "trolls" who are anti-Armstrong

Postby spinoza » Fri Sep 07, 2012 8:31 pm

Conor Dary wrote:
rsb2 wrote:

Do I have an easy answer to creating a level playing field? No? But whatever it is, it certainly isn't "f++k" morality, it's "only sport", so who cares what people are willing to do to super-charge their bodies, in order to win at all costs. At what age do you want to start teaching your children that ethic? And what other shortcuts to victory shall we throw into that valueless stew, for their consumption?


Sure it is morality. We are talking about 'cheating', the ultimately morality tale.

You have testing. People get caught and they get kicked out. Fine. It is these silly charades of going after one guy because he is a celebrity and made a few enemies.


The directionality of entailment is always fun, which is what 'because' is all about. Here are two propositions:

-We're going after one chap because he is a celebrity

-The chap is a celebrity because he is a drug cheat

They really simplify to this proposition:

-We're going after one chap because he is a drug cheat
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Re: Columnist looks at "trolls" who are anti-Armstrong

Postby Pego » Sat Sep 08, 2012 5:01 am

spinoza wrote:
Conor Dary wrote:
rsb2 wrote:

Do I have an easy answer to creating a level playing field? No? But whatever it is, it certainly isn't "f++k" morality, it's "only sport", so who cares what people are willing to do to super-charge their bodies, in order to win at all costs. At what age do you want to start teaching your children that ethic? And what other shortcuts to victory shall we throw into that valueless stew, for their consumption?


Sure it is morality. We are talking about 'cheating', the ultimately morality tale.

You have testing. People get caught and they get kicked out. Fine. It is these silly charades of going after one guy because he is a celebrity and made a few enemies.


The directionality of entailment is always fun, which is what 'because' is all about. Here are two propositions:

-We're going after one chap because he is a celebrity

-The chap is a celebrity because he is a drug cheat

They really simplify to this proposition:

-We're going after one chap because he is a drug cheat


You might want to change your handle. Spinoza is spinning in his grave.
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Re: Columnist looks at "trolls" who are anti-Armstrong

Postby jazzcyclist » Sat Sep 08, 2012 5:37 am

spinoza wrote:The directionality of entailment is always fun, which is what 'because' is all about. Here are two propositions:

-We're going after one chap because he is a celebrity

-The chap is a celebrity because he is a drug cheat

They really simplify to this proposition:

-We're going after one chap because he is a drug cheat

The problem with your logic is that it's based on a false proposition, namely the second one.
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Re: Columnist looks at "trolls" who are anti-Armstrong

Postby spinoza » Sat Sep 08, 2012 7:22 am

jazzcyclist wrote:
spinoza wrote:The directionality of entailment is always fun, which is what 'because' is all about. Here are two propositions:

-We're going after one chap because he is a celebrity

-The chap is a celebrity because he is a drug cheat

They really simplify to this proposition:

-We're going after one chap because he is a drug cheat

The problem with your logic is that it's based on a false proposition, namely the second one.


Do you think it false because you believe he wasn't a drug cheat, or because you believe he was, but that his athletic success, and therefore his celebrity, wasn't advanced by his cheating?
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