bushop wrote:For the sake if discussion. Would it hurt Bolt's AOY resumé if he ran, and lost, a 400m running 44-high.
No. That is not relevant to his primary events record. And to reiterate an oft-repeated statement by T&FN, doing multiple events does not automatically make you a stronger candidate for AOY, but doing them all superbly does.
Tuariki wrote:Given comments on wAOY thread does it hurt Eaton that he was 3rd in LJ at Walnut?
See above.
hc10003 wrote:This raises an interesting issue, specific to national trials: if the goal of trials is simply to qualify for OG, aren't they tantamount to heats?
No. Any nation with a competitive Oly Trials, that meet is de facto the biggest domestic (restricted to nationals only) meet of the year for all athletes.
With his 12.97 in Berlin today, Aries Merritt tied the all-time record for most sub-13's in one year. If he breaks the record in Rieti or Brussels, or anywhere, should he be considered for AOY?? Or does he need to break the WR also?? And would even THAT do it??
aaronk wrote:Aries Merritt does he need to break the WR also?? would even THAT do it??
A 12.85 would definitely sway me! I think people are under-esteeming him because Liu, Robles and Oliver didn't mount the multi-sub-13 campaigns as many thought they would. This, however, was a stellar sticks year
IMO as it stands today it is Rudisha, then Eaton as: 1. I rate Rudisha's WR performance higher than Eaton's 2. Rudisha's number of wins with quality performances 3. It is not that difficult to go undefeated if you only compete twice
The only athlete that could upset that scenario is Merritt. IMO if he can break the WR then he would go to the top for AOY.
Marlow wrote:No. Any nation with a competitive Oly Trials, that meet is de facto the biggest domestic (restricted to nationals only) meet of the year for all athletes.
Agreed, and its very name says it was. National Senior Championships. The representatives for the Olympic games just happened to be chosen from the results.
The US Olympic Trials are often the second best meet of the year in a number of events.
Denigrating a decathlete because they only have three fabulous competitions in a year is somewhere in the naive direction. Or put it this way, he competed 27 times at the top level, once winning the OG and the other two setting World Records. The distance between his WR and the next best competitor is much bigger than anyone else. And the big one was set under pretty difficult conditions -- look what the wind and rain and cool weather does to high jumpers and 400 runners and hurdlers (e.g., Pearson's loss).
Tuariki wrote: Given comments on wAOY thread does it hurt Eaton that he was 3rd in LJ at Walnut?
Was he now? That is enough for me. DR is the Man!
I am not sure if you're being facetious or not.
One way or the other, a very deserving athlete is going to come in second here.
Very serious. In fact Eaton should run a DL 1500 to prove how tough he is....
But seriously, DR is the man. That Oly 800 is one for the ages.
Let's see Mr. Rudisha pick up a shot or a vaulting pole. Not that I get to vote, but I am probably leaning toward Rudisha also. That said, Eaton also had an amazing season.
aaronk wrote:With his 12.97 in Berlin today, Aries Merritt tied the all-time record for most sub-13's in one year. If he breaks the record in Rieti or Brussels, or anywhere, should he be considered for AOY?? Or does he need to break the WR also?? And would even THAT do it??
He should be in the mix. In many other years his accomplishments would've been enough to win it; this year it's gonna be difficult to beat Eaton and Rudisha because of their WRs, though.
MightyBurner wrote:Merritt. He's been utterly dominant all year with a fluky loss or two.
Gonna be tough for him to win it; maybe he can get enough second and third place votes to pull the upset, with the other first place votes split between Eaton and Rudisha. When Sam Bradford won the Heisman, Tebow got the most first place votes and only finished third.
Obviously, if you say that someone who competed only twice during the year can never be the AOY, then you're saying that no decathlete or marathoner should ever be considered. I'm not sure everyone would agree.
The problem with Merritt as AOY, even if he does set the WR this week, is that he lost two Diamond League races and false started in two others. Rudisha and Eaton also got WRs this year, but Rudisha lost only once and Eaton not at all. Merritt, of course, competed in more meets than Rudisha and Eaton combined.
jazzcyclist wrote:Rudisha also set a WR and won the Kenya OT and OG.
And Rudisha is indeed an awesome athlete. As I said before, it's sad that amazing athletes like Rudi and Bolt can't win AOY because they happened to lose on smaller stages, but that's how the AOY game is played. But . . . if Eaton does not win it, yeah, I can live with that too, even as much as I think he should win it.
tandfman wrote:Obviously, if you say that someone who competed only twice during the year can never be the AOY, then you're saying that no decathlete or marathoner should ever be considered. I'm not sure everyone would agree.
Two competitions is a little on the low side, even for decathletes. Most of them will end up doing 3 decathlons this year. Some will even do as many as 5.
However, I do think indoor events should count for AOY voting, so I'd have no problem with Eaton as AOY.
tandfman wrote:Obviously, if you say that someone who competed only twice during the year can never be the AOY, then you're saying that no decathlete or marathoner should ever be considered. I'm not sure everyone would agree.
You should read what I said. I have never said Eaton, or anyone else with only 2 comps, should not be considered as AOY. However, I am saying that where someone like Rudisha has 9 comps then I would not penalise Rudisha for his latest loss in comparison to Eaton. And while I personally favour Rudsiha for AOY I would not have any problems if Eaton wins.
tandfman wrote:The problem with Merritt as AOY, even if he does set the WR this week, is that he lost two Diamond League races and false started in two others. Rudisha and Eaton also got WRs this year, but Rudisha lost only once and Eaton not at all. Merritt, of course, competed in more meets than Rudisha and Eaton combined.
If we compare Merrit only to the comps that Eaton competed in OT and OG then both were undefeated but Eaton is rated higher because of the WR. If Merrit sets a WR in the next week or so then does his overall record offset Eaton? IMO it would. I guess IYO it won't. No problem with that. In such circumstances Rudisha, Eaton and Merritt would all be a worthy winner of AOY.
Tuariki wrote:3. It is not that difficult to go undefeated if you only compete twice.
TAFNY!!!! Yeah, and he cherry-picked those meets - ducking the opposition by only showing up for the USA OT and the OG. (the WR was sooooo a fluke!)
Rudisha also set a WR and won the Kenya OT and OG.
And he beat the defending World Champion both times, right? The comment is the Eaton only competed twice.
Bolt has a foot in the bucket because he is only 1-1 in both his events versus another individual whom he refused to race on any other occasion. This is one of the costs of ducking -- and in my mind ought to be imposed as much as possible to show the cost of doing so. My guess is that if Bolt had raced the Beast 5-6 more times he would have a couple more defeats. Ducking so that you do not lose to keep your record clean means that your record is thin, and Bolt's is decidedly thin with a mere single victory over his top opponent in each event -- note that Eaton beat is primary opponent twice in his two competitions.
Tuariki wrote:If Merrit sets a WR in the next week or so then does his overall record offset Eaton? IMO it would. I guess IYO it won't. No problem with that. In such circumstances Rudisha, Eaton and Merritt would all be a worthy winner of AOY.
I agree. My comments were not meant to suggest that the choice is at all clear.
Given comments on wAOY thread does it hurt Eaton that he was 3rd in LJ at Walnut?
Was he now? That is enough for me. DR is the Man!
I am not sure if you're being facetious or not.
One way or the other, a very deserving athlete is going to come in second here.
Very serious. In fact Eaton should run a DL 1500 to prove how tough he is....
But seriously, DR is the man. That Oly 800 is one for the ages.
And Eaton's 9039 WR in the rain is not??
So, if Rudisha had run a 400 and finished 4th then Eaton would be ahead??
Finally, Eaton also has a heptathlon WR to his credit. Sure, it's not the same as a deca but it's a legit event and he won it and broke a WR. The fact that the event favors him is not a knock on the event - it's a compliment to him. Did Rudisha or Merritt break an indoor WR this year? All 3 are awesome (Bolt too) but Eaton should win. He could not have done more this year!
dbirds wrote:.... but Eaton should win. He could not have done more this year!
Well, actually he could. Skipping Götzis so close to the OT was the right choice. If he were to show up at Talence in a couple of weeks and win with a mid-8000s score, I suspect he'd become a pretty clear choice for a lot of people.
I'm still leaning towards him even with only the pair of meets. (and bringing up the indoor heptathlon, at least in terms of T&FN's AOY award, is a waste of time. The mark will not be on his cv and the voting instructions will contain usual boilerplate regards the ignoring of such events)
i think it has been made clear that the indoor heptathlon, indoor 800 and indoor 60 hurdles do not count in considering the AOY. Rudisha had some great sequence of marks in addition to his WR at the olympics. However, Eaton has practically been perfect winning the OT by almost 700 points over the world champion and breaking the 11 yr old WR, then winning the OG by 200 points over the defending world champion and the best the world had to offer. Both of his scores were in the top 8 performances ever, so the only thing Eaton did not do was break his WR from the trials at the olympics. Or post another big score in a meaningless early season meet. The comment that he would lose to mediocre club level atheltes in most of the event is totally ignorant. His 8.23 long jump at the trials would have put him on the us team and would have given him silver in london (had he repeated it). Even his long jump mark in london would have been good enough to give him three more jumps in the final.
gh wrote:I'm still leaning towards him even with only the pair of meets.
How about the following argument in favor of Eaton: He's won convincingly not only in good conditions, but also in the rain. When Rudisha ran in the rain, he didn't win, indicating he's not equally great under adverse conditions.
gh wrote:I'm still leaning towards him even with only the pair of meets.
How about the following argument in favor of Eaton: He's won convincingly not only in good conditions, but also in the rain. When Rudisha ran in the rain, he didn't win, indicating he's not equally great under adverse conditions.
to add to this, some of the events eaton competes in can severely be affected by the rain (such as high jump, hurdles, discus, pole vault).
tm71 wrote:i think it has been made clear that the indoor heptathlon, indoor 800 and indoor 60 hurdles do not count in considering the AOY. Rudisha had some great sequence of marks in addition to his WR at the olympics. However, Eaton has practically been perfect winning the OT by almost 700 points over the world champion and breaking the 11 yr old WR, then winning the OG by 200 points over the defending world champion and the best the world had to offer. Both of his scores were in the top 8 performances ever, so the only thing Eaton did not do was break his WR from the trials at the olympics. Or post another big score in a meaningless early season meet. The comment that he would lose to mediocre club level atheltes in most of the event is totally ignorant. His 8.23 long jump at the trials would have put him on the us team and would have given him silver in london (had he repeated it). Even his long jump mark in london would have been good enough to give him three more jumps in the final.
WHo cares that he beat 'the defending world champion' it's totally irrelevant. Harting, Rudisha, Bolt, Farah either are the world champ or beat him as well.
