mump boy wrote:Also the idea that his WR is worth more because it has stood for longer is nonsense considering Rudisha beat his own mark ? if he hadn't bothered to run WR records before he would have broken one that had stood for 15 years
When looking at how long the WR stood, the athlete's own previous WRs shouldn't count. In the battle of WR longevity with the current WR holder vs. everybody else in history, I go back to the record held by the previous athlete, and performances by other athletes that are better than the previous WR holder but not good enough to be a new record.
So IMO Rudisha is still pummeling Kipketer's 15-year-old record, not breaking a "mere" 2-year-old record, because Rudisha alone has performed better than the 1997 record. And if Eaton broke the WR again in London, that would be a further assault on Sebrle's 2001 record, not breaking a "mere" 6-week-old record, because Eaton himself is the only one to have ever bettered the 2001 record.
Eaton set world decathlon records in the 100m and long jump and set WRs in the heptathlon and decathlons! He beat a 2-time defending world Champion Trey hardee twice. Many former Decathletes and historians call Eaton the best decathlete ever. He has taken the event to The next level. There's really nothing more he could Have feasibly done in 2012!
dbirds wrote:Eaton set world decathlon records in the 100m and long jump and set WRs in the heptathlon and decathlons! He beat a 2-time defending world Champion Trey hardee twice. Many former Decathletes and historians call Eaton the best decathlete ever. He has taken the event to The next level. There's really nothing more he could Have feasibly done in 2012!
He may prove to be so in the future but at the moment NOBODY calls Eaton the best decathlete ever !! He's not even the best decathlete of this century at the moment
Beating a 2 time defending champion has no bearing nor does his Heptathlon achievements.
He may prove to be so in the future but at the moment NOBODY calls Eaton the best decathlete ever !! He's not even the best decathlete of this century at the moment ....
At the risk of parsing words too finely, there is no question that the Eaton is the best decathlete ever. The World Record (with much room to grow) adequately proves that.
However, is he the greatest decathlete ever? To paraphrase your correct statement, he's not even the greatest of this century. Yet.
gh wrote:However, is he the greatest decathlete ever? To paraphrase your correct statement, he's not even the greatest of this century. Yet.
More semantics. Is he the Dec GOAT? Absolutely not. He needs a fuller CV. Is he the most talented/highest performing (irrespective of era) decathlete ever? I've got him in a tie with Thorpe right now, and if he adds a point to the WR or wins the OG Dec again, he's got my vote.
gh wrote:ahh, but last year nobody set a World Record in mainstream non-road event.
And that tells me that Mr. Rudisha is the runaway favorite to be AOY.
I think gh was referring to the fact that this year, Eaton set a WR in a mainstream non-road event.
Well so did Rudisha.
In gh's comment, last year no one (else) set a WR => thus winning despite being beaten at the end was more easily done. This year he faces a harder set of competition. Bolt was definitely better, Eaton broke an important WR under difficult conditions and shattered his own indoors, so when he did compete in a similar event (as similar as possible) he set the standard there too. Only doing two competitions is a major disadvantage in the 10, 200, etc., even the 1500; the 5000 matters a bit less, especially with doubling, but hurts you more in the 5000 ranking than overall ranking.
Eaton was competing at a high level in non-Multi events, and probably beating all the multi guys almost all the time, although you would not expect him to do so in the SP/DT/JT.
Thus, the multis create a conundrum for the AOY voting. Comparing Ennis and Eaton, a new WR vs three hundred points below puts him further up the quality totem pole.
18.99s wrote:When looking at how long the WR stood, the athlete's own previous WRs shouldn't count. In the battle of WR longevity with the current WR holder vs. everybody else in history, I go back to the record held by the previous athlete, and performances by other athletes that are better than the previous WR holder but not good enough to be a new record.
That's a valid point, and the correct way to look at it.
dbirds wrote:Eaton set world decathlon records in the 100m and long jump and set WRs in the heptathlon and decathlons! He beat a 2-time defending world Champion Trey hardee twice. Many former Decathletes and historians call Eaton the best decathlete ever. He has taken the event to The next level. There's really nothing more he could Have feasibly done in 2012!
I agree that there is nothing more he could have feasibly done this year. I am curious what others think he needs to do to be the GOAT. 3 WR in the Hep, the WR in the Decathlon, and now the gold medal. So, another gold medal? Another WR or two in the Hep? Another WR in the Dec? I'll be shocked if he doesn't add another hundred points to the his Hep in the next couple years and another hundred or so in the Dec before it is all over. By the time he has finished with it, it will take 20-30 years for someone to beat his heptathlon record.
18.99s wrote:When looking at how long the WR stood, the athlete's own previous WRs shouldn't count. In the battle of WR longevity with the current WR holder vs. everybody else in history, I go back to the record held by the previous athlete, and performances by other athletes that are better than the previous WR holder but not good enough to be a new record.
That's a valid point, and the correct way to look at it.
Correct way to look at it except that his WR got him last year's AOY points. The WR was a mere one year ago and only a little bit. What is more impressive is that very few WRs have been set in races longer than 400m in the OGs or even the WCs.
If Eaton can take another dec in WCallenges or adding some good LJs in DL,he will definately got my vote even if his below-par oly peformance.
Below par? It was the 9th best Performance ever, 2nd best Olympic performance ever, ahead of Bryan Clay and Daley thompsons career best and his 2nd best ever mark!
Well for a start it's based on certifiable facts not undefinable personal opinion.
It doesn't matter what Bolt's motivation was at the trials, the FACT is that he lost twice and this will be held against him when it comes to judging him against his peers. Especially those that haven't lost and/or have set WR, it is impossible for him to be placed above them.
mump boy wrote:It doesn't matter what Bolt's motivation was at the trials, the FACT is that he lost twice and this will be held against him when it comes to judging him against his peers.
True dat. AOY is reserved for the guy was was on his game ALL the time, regardless of circumstances. I hate seeing a Bolt or Rudisha losing AOY on a smaller stage, but it is what it is. I'll be astounded if Eaton ain't it now.
The fact is that he finished second in a race in which the first three places secured a spot on the Jamaican team for the Olympics.
IRRELEVANT when judging AOY, they were loses. Or can anyone who loses say oh i wasn't motivated ? we have to deal in cold hard facts not surmisations.
Let's also consider the fact that he's spent the rest of the year conspicuously avoiding his biggest rivals, Harding, Rudisha and Merrit have ducked no one
dbirds wrote:Eaton set world decathlon records in the 100m and long jump and set WRs in the heptathlon and decathlons! He beat a 2-time defending world Champion Trey hardee twice. Many former Decathletes and historians call Eaton the best decathlete ever. He has taken the event to The next level. There's really nothing more he could Have feasibly done in 2012!
I agree that there is nothing more he could have feasibly done this year. I am curious what others think he needs to do to be the GOAT. 3 WR in the Hep, the WR in the Decathlon, and now the gold medal. So, another gold medal? Another WR or two in the Hep? Another WR in the Dec? I'll be shocked if he doesn't add another hundred points to the his Hep in the next couple years and another hundred or so in the Dec before it is all over. By the time he has finished with it, it will take 20-30 years for someone to beat his heptathlon record.
There is no question that Eaton, in the words of gh, is the best decathlete ever. No question that he has the potential to become the greatest Dec ever. To answer your GOAT question, let's look at Daley Thompson ...
Two OG golds, 4 WRs, Undefeated 1979-1986, facing all his major challengers.
Give Eaton a few more years, and I think he could very well equal or eclipse DT's record. Then, we can talk about GOAT. I also think his Hep record, while the best ever, doesn't necessarily bolster his Dec cv. Eaton's forte is the running/jumping portion of the Dec, and the Hep is tilted towards that. So he is a natural fit for the Hep, even more so than the Dec.
I also agree with mump-boy's comment regarding Bolt ... yes, he had a stellar season, but the fact is he lost to Blake twice, and did not race him other than the Jamaican Trials and the Olympics. Similar lack of racing Gatlin & Gay outside of the Olympics. Whether it was his back or something else, the fact is he only faced his stiffest competitors once or twice. Rudisha faced his stiffest competitors far more frequently.
Last edited by bobguild76 on Sun Sep 02, 2012 7:45 am, edited 2 times in total.
Marlow wrote:AOY is reserved for the guy was was on his game ALL the time, regardless of circumstances. I hate seeing a Bolt or Rudisha losing AOY on a smaller stage, but it is what it is. I'll be astounded if Eaton ain't it now.
For the sake if discussion. Would it hurt Bolt's AOY resumé if he ran, and lost, a 400m running 44-high.
Marlow wrote:AOY is reserved for the guy was was on his game ALL the time, regardless of circumstances. I hate seeing a Bolt or Rudisha losing AOY on a smaller stage, but it is what it is. I'll be astounded if Eaton ain't it now.
For the sake if discussion. Would it hurt Bolt's AOY resumé if he ran, and lost, a 400m running 44-high.
Given comments on wAOY thread does it hurt Eaton that he was 3rd in LJ at Walnut?
The fact is that he finished second in a race in which the first three places secured a spot on the Jamaican team for the Olympics.
IRRELEVANT when judging AOY, they were loses. Or can anyone who loses say oh i wasn't motivated ? we have to deal in cold hard facts not surmisations.
Marlow wrote:True dat. AOY is reserved for the guy was was on his game ALL the time, regardless of circumstances. I hate seeing a Bolt or Rudisha losing AOY on a smaller stage, but it is what it is. I'll be astounded if Eaton ain't it now.
This raises an interesting issue, specific to national trials: if the goal of trials is simply to qualify for OG, aren't they tantamount to heats? No one would devalue Farah's resume by stating that he was 3rd in the race on Aug 8 in London -- the sole goal was to finish top 5 to advance to the finals. If you view national trials that way, as a qualifying heat for the OG, then perhaps they carry equal (i.e., minimal) weight to an OG heat? Not really arguing one side or the other, but curious to hear thoughts on the trials vs heats issue.
Bolt wasn't running in the Jamaican trials merely to qualify. He wanted to win those races, but he couldn't. Nobody deliberately runs 2nd or 3rd in the final of their Olympic trials when they're capable of winning; if they think they can win, they run to win. It's not like heats where they often deliberately run 2nd or 3rd or 4th to save energy.
If someone was 3rd in the 10,000 or marathon Oly Trials, it hardly comes across as a loss, but getting the job done. So why should it be any different in the 100?
Now, mind you, there are performers who really do want to win the Trials. The 1988 long jump with Lewis and Myricks going head to head, my favorite memory.
