Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY?? [or Merritt?!]


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Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY?? [or Merritt?!]

Postby dbirds » Thu Aug 30, 2012 10:44 am

Loss may swing AOY race back to Eaton!
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Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY??

Postby Conor Dary » Thu Aug 30, 2012 10:44 am

dbirds wrote:Loss may swing AOY race back to Eaton!


You are late to the party.
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Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY??

Postby croflash » Thu Aug 30, 2012 10:54 am

I would still give it to Rudisha, Bolt second, Eaton third.

Really though, Merritt would be deserving as well. Harting has won 32 meets in a row. I don't think there is a definitive argument that Athlete X MUST win.
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Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY??

Postby marknhj » Thu Aug 30, 2012 11:05 am

To me, a multi-eventer, no matter how good, should never supersede an athlete who has produced an otherworldly individual event performance and season.
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Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY??

Postby jazzcyclist » Thu Aug 30, 2012 11:07 am

marknhj wrote:To me, a multi-eventer, no matter how good, should never supersede an athlete who has produced an otherworldly individual event performance and season.

You don't put Eaton's WR on par with Rudisha's WR? :?
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Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY??

Postby Conor Dary » Thu Aug 30, 2012 11:14 am

jazzcyclist wrote:
marknhj wrote:To me, a multi-eventer, no matter how good, should never supersede an athlete who has produced an otherworldly individual event performance and season.

You don't put Eaton's WR on par with Rudisha's WR? :?


Eaton's WR was nice, but I wouldn't put it on par with DR's. As noted an unworldly performance.
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Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY??

Postby marknhj » Thu Aug 30, 2012 11:14 am

jazzcyclist wrote:
marknhj wrote:To me, a multi-eventer, no matter how good, should never supersede an athlete who has produced an otherworldly individual event performance and season.

You don't put Eaton's WR on par with Rudisha's WR? :?


I think that the nature of the events makes it an apples and oranges comparison. However, an individual WR is significantly superior in merit to a multi-event WR, in my opinion. By definition, no human has ever done that one thing better.
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Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY??

Postby jeremyp » Thu Aug 30, 2012 11:20 am

Don't forget that the AOY rankings are not held to the rigid set of rules as are the event rankings. Over the years we have seen weird rankings. American rankers are bound to favor Eaton now that Rudisha lost in a fast race. I give the nod to Eaton myself, as he did it all. 2 WR's an Olympic gold, and total supremacy over rivals.
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Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY??

Postby Half Miler » Thu Aug 30, 2012 11:35 am

FWIW, using the IAAF tables, Eaton's WR is worth 1270 points, Rudisha's WR 1296.
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Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY??

Postby Conor Dary » Thu Aug 30, 2012 11:46 am

Half Miler wrote:FWIW, using the IAAF tables, Eaton's WR is worth 1270 points, Rudisha's WR 1296.


Well that may be true. But it misses the point of what marknhj is making.
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Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY??

Postby Half Miler » Thu Aug 30, 2012 11:48 am

Wasn't responding directly to marknhj, or taking sides, just adding data to the discussion.
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Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY??

Postby marknhj » Thu Aug 30, 2012 11:57 am

Half Miler wrote:Wasn't responding directly to marknhj, or taking sides, just adding data to the discussion.


Does anyone (beyond the obsessive compulsive T&F excel addicts) actually take those comparative point tables seriously? I think they're a joke. (btw - not a shot at you, 804.672m-er)
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Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY??

Postby aaronk » Thu Aug 30, 2012 12:06 pm

Conor Dary wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote:
marknhj wrote:To me, a multi-eventer, no matter how good, should never supersede an athlete who has produced an otherworldly individual event performance and season.

You don't put Eaton's WR on par with Rudisha's WR? :?


Eaton's WR was nice, but I wouldn't put it on par with DR's. As noted an unworldly performance.


Eaton and Ennis for AOY's!!!
Multi's RULE!!

Eaton broke a WR that had stood for 11 years.
Rudisha broke a WR that had stood for less than TWO years!!
And THAT record had broken a WR that had been set just one WEEK earlier!!

Sorry, but it seems to me that the Dec WR was a much more difficult target.

Eaton wins the battle of the WR's!!
(Now, if Rudisha had run 1:39.99 tonight.......!!!)
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Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY??

Postby marknhj » Thu Aug 30, 2012 12:09 pm

aaronk wrote:
Conor Dary wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote:
marknhj wrote:To me, a multi-eventer, no matter how good, should never supersede an athlete who has produced an otherworldly individual event performance and season.

You don't put Eaton's WR on par with Rudisha's WR? :?


Eaton's WR was nice, but I wouldn't put it on par with DR's. As noted an unworldly performance.


Eaton and Ennis for AOY's!!!
Multi's RULE!!


Reasonable level club athletes would beat them at most events though! However, I agree Eaton's 8.21m and Ennis' 12.54 were damn good performances :D
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Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY??

Postby dbirds » Thu Aug 30, 2012 12:10 pm

I agree...Sebrle's WR was amazing and had not been challenged since he set it in 2001. Not only was Eaton's 2 performances very impressive, some of his individual marks (in and out of the deca) were phenomenal as well.

Ennis has a strong case as well although you have to look at Adams, Felix, etc.

Reasonable level club athletes would beat them at most events though! However, I agree Eaton's 8.21m and Ennis' 12.54 were damn good performances


I guarantee you...no one individual or club athlete would beat Eaton in more than 2 decathlon events!
Last edited by dbirds on Thu Aug 30, 2012 12:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY??

Postby Half Miler » Thu Aug 30, 2012 12:11 pm

marknhj wrote:
aaronk wrote:I agree Eaton's 8.21m and Ennis' 12.54 were damn good performances :D


Eaton jumped 8.23 (from your OCD friend). :)
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Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY??

Postby Half Miler » Thu Aug 30, 2012 12:21 pm

marknhj wrote:
Half Miler wrote:Wasn't responding directly to marknhj, or taking sides, just adding data to the discussion.


Does anyone (beyond the obsessive compulsive T&F excel addicts) actually take those comparative point tables seriously? I think they're a joke. (btw - not a shot at you, 804.672m-er)


Coupla things:
1. I cop to being an OCD T&F addict. But, I actually have problems with the scoring tables as well. However, I was merely adding this as food for thought.

2. I was, in fact, an 800m runner. AFAIK, my high-school tracks were not 880yd, so my handle is a bit of a misnomer. Thanks for pointing this out, mark-who-could-not-possibly-be-obsessive-compulsive. :wink:
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Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY??

Postby Conor Dary » Thu Aug 30, 2012 12:21 pm

Of course it all comes down to gh and his crew when they do their Siskel-Ebert imitation. Thumbs up or thumbs down on DR.
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Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY??

Postby odelltrclan » Thu Aug 30, 2012 12:22 pm

marknhj wrote:Reasonable level club athletes would beat them at most events though! However, I agree Eaton's 8.21m and Ennis' 12.54 were damn good performances :D


Are "reasonable" club athletes routinely jumping over 27' 0"? I think not. 14th on the yearly list for LJ. Besides the LJ, his name appears on the IAAF 100, 110H & 400 lists as well. Try doing that while training for throwing events. Probably could have made it onto the PV list as well if he was serious about making the list.

He is worthy of AOY status!
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Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY??

Postby j-a-m » Thu Aug 30, 2012 12:27 pm

There are several athletes who''ve done enough to deserve AOY, also including Bolt and Merritt; right now I'd go with Eaton.
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Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY??

Postby Half Miler » Thu Aug 30, 2012 12:27 pm

This should be a really good AOY race. A case can be made for each of the following athletes:

Rudisha
Eaton
Bolt
Merritt
Harting
Farah

Expect plenty of bitching and moaning after (the athlete you DID NOT choose) is selected!
Last edited by Half Miler on Thu Aug 30, 2012 12:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY??

Postby marknhj » Thu Aug 30, 2012 12:28 pm

Half Miler wrote:
marknhj wrote:
aaronk wrote:I agree Eaton's 8.21m and Ennis' 12.54 were damn good performances :D


Eaton jumped 8.23 (from your OCD friend). :)


Don't you hate it when excel randomly changes the data in a cell? :D
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Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY??

Postby Half Miler » Thu Aug 30, 2012 12:29 pm

Nice try! (but for the record, I HATE excel)
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Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY??

Postby bekayne » Thu Aug 30, 2012 12:31 pm

aaronk wrote:
Eaton broke a WR that had stood for 11 years.
Rudisha broke a WR that had stood for less than TWO years!!
And THAT record had broken a WR that had been set just one WEEK earlier!!


Rudisha was breaking the records he had set! Hes has the 6 fastest times since 1997
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Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY??

Postby ZELLGADISS » Thu Aug 30, 2012 12:43 pm

If Bolt gets 9.6 in Brusells i would tell Bolt.
But well, we will see....
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Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY??

Postby az2004 » Thu Aug 30, 2012 12:50 pm

rudisha gets it

homerism if eaton does
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Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY??

Postby dbirds » Thu Aug 30, 2012 12:57 pm

homerism if eaton does


More like Anti-Multi Event bias if he doesn't
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Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY??

Postby Dave » Thu Aug 30, 2012 1:16 pm

dbirds wrote:
homerism if eaton does


More like Anti-Multi Event bias if he doesn't


I probably favor Rudisha over Eaton, but not by much and would be pleased with either result.

However, if Farah or Bolt beat either one of them then we need to talk. Gold + WR trumps double gold.
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Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY??

Postby gh » Thu Aug 30, 2012 1:25 pm

az2004 wrote:....
homerism if eaton does



Ah, there's that old canard again. I mention this virtually every year at AOY season, and it has been true for the 40-odd years that I've been involved in the balloting.

GENERALLY SPEAKING, U.S. ATHLETES GET HIGHER RATINGS FROM OVERSEAS VOTERS THAN THEY DO FROM DOMESTIC ONES. End of story.
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Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY??

Postby jazzcyclist » Thu Aug 30, 2012 1:31 pm

marknhj wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote:
marknhj wrote:To me, a multi-eventer, no matter how good, should never supersede an athlete who has produced an otherworldly individual event performance and season.

You don't put Eaton's WR on par with Rudisha's WR? :?


I think that the nature of the events makes it an apples and oranges comparison. However, an individual WR is significantly superior in merit to a multi-event WR, in my opinion. By definition, no human has ever done that one thing better.

I understand your point but I respectfully disagree with it. The only thing that I believe should favor the 800 is the fact that people attempt the 800 many more times during the course of a year than they attempt the Decathlon.
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Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY??

Postby Half Miler » Thu Aug 30, 2012 2:15 pm

In the event that either Rudisha or Bolt squeak this one out, they would join Lewis and El Guerrouj as the only 3-time winners. Rudisha would also equal Lewis with three in a row.
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Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY??

Postby Mighty Favog » Thu Aug 30, 2012 3:46 pm

We're I to vote for AOY, where I can make up my own criteria, I would highly value someone who was consistently excellent and fearless in his competition schedule. The pro circuit desperately needs to figure out how to reward these things more than a single huge mark or an undefeated season.

So that means I'd have to put Merritt at #1 and Rudisha's light racing schedule would make him vulnerable to Eaton--I have no idea if he intends to do Talence but if he does then his is pretty extensive schedule for a multis guy. The unwillingness of Bolt and Blake to run against each other except when forced to doesn't sit well with me either when it comes to AOY status.
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Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY??

Postby toyracer » Thu Aug 30, 2012 4:08 pm

Genuine question: has Eaton been beaten on a decathlon this year?
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Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY??

Postby Dave » Thu Aug 30, 2012 4:50 pm

toyracer wrote:Genuine question: has Eaton been beaten on a decathlon this year?


Not this year. I think he lost at the WC last year(silver) and has won a bunch of heptathlons over the past few years.
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Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY??

Postby 26mi235 » Thu Aug 30, 2012 6:20 pm

His dominant Hept WR will possibly influence some voters.
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Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY??

Postby jazzcyclist » Thu Aug 30, 2012 6:28 pm

If Eaton did only the long jump and Ennis did only the 100 hurdles, they would have both been medal contenders.
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Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY??

Postby berkeley » Thu Aug 30, 2012 7:29 pm

gh wrote:
az2004 wrote:....
homerism if eaton does



Ah, there's that old canard again. I mention this virtually every year at AOY season, and it has been true for the 40-odd years that I've been involved in the balloting.

GENERALLY SPEAKING, U.S. ATHLETES GET HIGHER RATINGS FROM OVERSEAS VOTERS THAN THEY DO FROM DOMESTIC ONES. End of story.


Touched a nerve there :)
I've never noticed any US bias in the rankings in the 35+ years I've been perusing - nay, devouring - them.
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Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY??

Postby ATK » Thu Aug 30, 2012 8:05 pm

Only 7 mentions of Bolt in this topic, and only 2 in favor of him ahead of Eaton.

People need to understand something....Bolt is Bolt.
If you need a reminder, go look at how they managed to scrap together a way for him to get the award last year off a "sub par" season.

Rudisha losing not only the race, but more importantly (I assume) the Diamond League probably just rolled out the Red Carpet for Bolt to walk down.
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Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY??

Postby gh » Thu Aug 30, 2012 8:09 pm

berkeley wrote:[...

GENERALLY SPEAKING, U.S. ATHLETES GET HIGHER RATINGS FROM OVERSEAS VOTERS THAN THEY DO FROM DOMESTIC ONES. End of story.


Touched a nerve there :)
I've never noticed any US bias in the rankings in the 35+ years I've been perusing - nay, devouring - them.[/quote]

No nerves touched; just tired of repeating myself. And note that the discussion was on AOY (which is voted on by a large group of people) not the Rankings (which come from a very small and select group who discuss, not vote).
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Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY??

Postby gh » Thu Aug 30, 2012 8:11 pm

26mi235 wrote:His dominant Hept WR will possibly influence some voters.


Hopefully it won't. It won't be on his cv for the year. The only time we include indoor marks is if they're the same as outdoors. So while the field events count, the 60 and 60 hurdles don't, banked track 400s, don't, etc,. etc. And that includes the men's kept, which rewards a whole different skill set than the decathlon.
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