Phelp's snatches Usian's Wig.....

[18.99s]

the free/back double is harder than the sprint/hurdle.

Why? There are plenty of participants in the individual medley, which means they train all four techniques.

By "harder" jazzcyclist is referring to being harder to win a medal in the specific events, not just harder to merely execute the strokes. Backstroke specialists will beat the best IM competitors in the backstroke.

[jazzcyclist]

the free/back double is harder than the sprint/hurdle.

Why? There are plenty of participants in the individual medley, which means they train all four techniques.

Decathletes train in teb different events, but that doesn't mean they're eworld-class in all ten. What's your point?

[j-a-m]

Decathletes train in teb different events, but that doesn't mean they're eworld-class in all ten. What's your point?

Ryan Lochte was the best in the world in the IM last year (and this). He also won gold in both 200 freestyle and 200 backstroke at the 2011 WC. What about that?

[TN1965]

The free/fly double is common, the sprint/hurdle double is rare, but the free/back double is unheard of.

Does this make Lochte one of the most remarkable swimmers of all time?

[TN1965]

Tell that to sometime poster on here Morten Aarlia, who rated Alexander Dale Oen (RIP) as greater than Thorkildsen because swimming is one of the 'basic' sports, even though the latter actually won more golds (even including ADO's short-course titles).

He also rated Rodal higher for the same reason, but for me 5-1 means more (even ignoring that Kipketer was absent)

And Bjorn Daehile should trump all of them, whether cross country skiing is "basic" or not.

[Conor Dary]

The free/fly double is common, the sprint/hurdle double is rare, but the free/back double is unheard of.

I wouldn't go that far. Back in 1972 John Murphy, from my high school, Hinsdale Central, got a bronze in the individual backstroke and a gold medal in the 4x100 free relay.

[TN1965]

The free/fly double is common, the sprint/hurdle double is rare, but the free/back double is unheard of.

I wouldn't go that far. Back in 1972 John Murphy, from my high school, Hinsdale Central, got a bronze in the individual backstroke and a gold medal in the 4x100 free relay.

John Naber won 100 back/200 back/ 4x200 relay/ 4x100 medley in 1976. He was also 2nd in 200 free.

But a relay title does not count, according to JC.

[j-a-m]

And Bjorn Daehile should trump all of them, whether cross country skiing is "basic" or not.

Cross country skiing is relatively "basic", and Daehlie deserves to be in that discussion, even though I wouldn't rank him #1. Cross country skiing is only practiced in a small number of countries, though; as opposed to t&f, which is basically worldwide.

[jazzcyclist]

The free/fly double is common, the sprint/hurdle double is rare, but the free/back double is unheard of.

I wouldn't go that far. Back in 1972 John Murphy, from my high school, Hinsdale Central, got a bronze in the individual backstroke and a gold medal in the 4x100 free relay.

John Naber won 100 back/200 back/ 4x200 relay/ 4x100 medley in 1976. He was also 2nd in 200 free.

But a relay title does not count, according to JC.

For the purposes of this discussion it doesn't count. Allen Johnson won a world title as a member of the U.S. 4x400 team, but I wouldn't call him an accomplished 400 runner. Similarly, Wallace Spearmon was a member of the American gold medal-winning team at the 2007 World Championships, but his 100 resume isn't worth bragging about. Those are just a couple of examples off the top of my head, but I'm sure there are many more. I didn't know about Naber, but it still ranks below what Devers did in 1993 when she won gold in both the 100 and 100 hurdles.

[Conor Dary]

Who is to say what counts and doesn't count? The difference between the top freestyler in the US wasn't that much better than the 4th, back in 1972.

The comparison with Allan Johnson is silly, but what else is new?

I just came up with Murphy off the top of my head, since he was on the team when I was at Hinsdale. I am sure there are others. The events are not that different, aside from the obvious.

[j-a-m]

For the purposes of this discussion it doesn't count.

What about Lochte in 2011?

[TN1965]

Who is to say what counts and doesn't count? The difference between the top freestyler in the US wasn't that much better than the 4th, back in 1972.

The comparison with Allan Johnson is silly, but what else is new?

I just came up with Murphy off the top of my head, since he was on the team when I was at Hinsdale. I am sure there are others. The events are not that different, aside from the obvious.

I cannot speak for JC, but here is a problem with relay titles in this context. Phelps won 4x100 in 2008. But he was only the third fastest swimmer in the first leg. He also anchored 4x200 this time, but the French guy in the same leg was faster than him. So one does not have to be the best (not even the best in one's leg) to win gold. On the other hand, many swimmers who had the fastest leg did not win the title.

[jazzcyclist]

Who is to say what counts and doesn't count? The difference between the top freestyler in the US wasn't that much better than the 4th, back in 1972.

The discussion is about individual Olympic accomplishment, not about a nation's swimming or sprint depth which is what relays are all about. If you want to debate relays, debate with yourself.

The comparison with Allan Johnson is silly, but what else is new?

It's no sillier than the example that you gave. As a matter of fact, your example is sillier because at least Johnson won multiple global titles including an Olympic gold medal.

[jazzcyclist]

For the purposes of this discussion it doesn't count.

What about Lochte in 2011?

Fill me in.

[TN1965]

For the purposes of this discussion it doesn't count.

What about Lochte in 2011?

Fill me in.

Gold medals in 200 free and 200 back at the World Championships.

[skyin' brian]

Speaking of Lochte - does he swim the Medley Relay now? Just the heats...the finals...or neither?

[freddie]

The other thing that makes track a little tougher is that track is a global sport while swimming is a G-8 sport despite Alia Atkinson's inspiring effort.

I think you are wrong here. I will concede that Africa as a whole is relatively stronger in track and weaker in swimming, but South Africa and Zimbabwe have had great recent Olympic success. I would also argue that South and Central America are better at swimming than track. Australia is much better in swimming than track. Europe and the USA are equally good in both. The difference is that China, Korea, and Japan are major powers in swimming and not so much (with a few notable exceptions) in track.

[freddie]

Speaking of Lochte - does he swim the Medley Relay now? Just the heats...the finals...or neither?

No.

[jazzcyclist]

The other thing that makes track a little tougher is that track is a global sport while swimming is a G-8 sport despite Alia Atkinson's inspiring effort.

I think you are wrong here. I will concede that Africa as a whole is relatively stronger in track and weaker in swimming, but South Africa and Zimbabwe have had great recent Olympic success. I would also argue that South and Central America are better at swimming than track. Australia is much better in swimming than track. Europe and the USA are equally good in both. The difference is that China, Korea, and Japan are major powers in swimming and not so much (with a few notable exceptions) in track.

It's about participation, not success. There are a lot more countries that participate in track in a meaningful way than participate in swimming. The whole world participates in track and the fact that countires like Austalia, China and Japan have more success in swimming than track is not due to a lack of effort in track, it's due to a much, much deeper talent pool. And introducing countries like South Africa and Zimbabwe to the debate is really cynical if you consider who their successful athletes were, and it really reinforces my point if you think about it.

[TN1965]

It's about participation, not success. There are a lot more countries that participate in track in a meaningful way than participate in swimming. The whole world participates in track and the fact that countires like Austalia, China and Japan have more success in swimming than track is not due to a lack of effort in track, it's due to a much, much deeper talent pool. And introducing countries like South Africa and Zimbabwe to the debate is really cynical if you consider who their successful athletes were, and it really reinforces my point if you think about it.

I cannot speak about Australia and China, but there is a very important reason that Japan is far more successful in swimming than in track & field. Swimming is a club-oriented sport, and many top swimmers have the same coach for most of their career. Once a junior swimmer becomes good enough, his/her coach tries to develop the talent with a long term objective.

T&F is a school-oriented sport, and the primary focus at each level is to win the domestic competition at high school, college, etc. The only exception that I can think of is Koji Murofushi who has been coached by his father with long term objectives in their mind.

The depth of talent pool does not explain the struggle that Japanese swimming went through from mid-70s to late-80s. Why has it become more successful as the depth increased? Because the way they develop the talent has changed. The old guard who had stifled the progress was finally replaced by the younger generation. (Gymnastics went through a similar cycle, as did soccer and tennis. T&F in Japan is still living in the 20th century.)

[Diego Sahagún]

Watching Phelps now. How can I watch the T&F It's not being broadcasted here now

[norunner]

Watching Phelps now. How can I watch the T&F It's not being broadcasted here now

Go here and click on Live Feed 02: http://www.eurovisionsports.tv/london2012/index.html

[Diego Sahagún]

Thanks so much mate

[freddie]

It's about participation, not success. There are a lot more countries that participate in track in a meaningful way than participate in swimming. The whole world participates in track and the fact that countires like Austalia, China and Japan have more success in swimming than track is not due to a lack of effort in track, it's due to a much, much deeper talent pool. And introducing countries like South Africa and Zimbabwe to the debate is really cynical if you consider who their successful athletes were, and it really reinforces my point if you think about it.

What? I'll respond to your points in order.

1. You argued that it's more difficult to win in track than in swimming. I don't think it is. It's not about participation, it's about competitiveness. Just because more countries participate in track does not mean that it is necessarily more competitive.

2. Your assertion that Australia, China and Japan have a much deeper talent pool in swimming than in track only reinforces my point that winning a swimming gold is just as difficult as in track.

3. I am being cynical by introducing countries like South Africa and Zimbabwe into the debate? Are you serious? Please don't introduce your presumably well-intentioned politically correct crap into my argument. Are you saying that if you haven't lived in a country for a thousand years you aren't a real citizen? Using your logic, the good old USA can celebrate Jim Thorpe's and Billy Mills' Olympic triumphs, and not much else. By the way, I forgot to mention that the great African nation of Tunisia won a gold in men's 1500 freestyle in Beijing. For what it's worth, the swimmer looked like a real Tunisian to me.

[jazzcyclist]

What? I'll respond to your points in order.

1. You argued that it's more difficult to win in track than in swimming. I don't think it is. It's not about participation, it's about competitiveness. Just because more countries participate in track does not mean that it is necessarily more competitive.

On this point, we'ill have to agree to disagree. Generally speaking G8 sports (eg. swimming, golf, tennis, etc.) are less competitve than global sports that are accessible to folks in thrid world countries (eg. soccer, track, etc.).

2. Your assertion that Australia, China and Japan have a much deeper talent pool in swimming than in track only reinforces my point that winning a swimming gold is just as difficult as in track.

You misunderstand me. I'm saying that track has a much deeper talent pool than swimming because it's a global sport. Many more kids worldwide have an opportunity to develope their talents in track than swimming. Any American kid can dream of pursuing a career in distance running at an early age, but most Ethiopian kids can't realistically dream of pursuing a career in elite swimming.

3. I am being cynical by introducing countries like South Africa and Zimbabwe into the debate? Are you serious? Please don't introduce your presumably well-intentioned politically correct crap into my argument. Are you saying that if you haven't lived in a country for a thousand years you aren't a real citizen? Using your logic, the good old USA can celebrate Jim Thorpe's and Billy Mills' Olympic triumphs, and not much else. By the way, I forgot to mention that the great African nation of Tunisia won a gold in men's 1500 freestyle in Beijing. For what it's worth, the swimmer looked like a real Tunisian to me.

Are you really this obtuse or are you just looking for a pissing contest? If it's the former, I guess I'm wasting my time trying to reason with you but if it's the latter, you need to go find someone else to play your juvenile games. The bottom line is that no intellectually-honest, informed person would present Kirsty Coventry as an example of the typical third-world, African kid that I've described.