Phelp's snatches Usian's Wig.....

[MissThickBooty]

19 Olympic Medals, pretty Amazing....Let's see how Bolt will respond!

[Weights&Shoes]

Now I see why gh wants to close this forum for a week....

[high knees]

19 Olympic Medals, pretty Amazing....Let's see how Bolt will respond!

Not as amazing as one would think. If track had the 50 regular,the 50 crawling, the 50 backwards, the 50 sideways, the regular 100, the 100 crawling, the 100 backwards, the 100 sideways, the 200 regular, the 200 crawling, the 200 backwards, the 200 sideways, etc...up to the 400 then had relays at each distance, there could be a lot of track athletes with 19 medals. Fact is that the swimmers just have a greater chance to medal because a) there are just plain more of events to medal at and b) many of the events are similar in nature and not really that much farther in distance. Still EXTREMELY impressive, but the reason why many say that Carl Lewis or Jesse Owens are still the greatest Olympians.....

[jazzcyclist]

19 Olympic Medals, pretty Amazing....Let's see how Bolt will respond!

Not as amazing as one would think. If track had blah blah blah, blah blah blah, blah blah blah there could be a lot of track athletes with 19 medals.

No there wouldn't. Track takes a much bigger toll on your body than nonweight-bearing sports like swimming and cycling. Why do you think athletes in track are so reluctant to double? And of the ones that do, why are so few successful? Ask Allyson and Veronica, they'll tell you why.

In the last two Olympics, Michael Phelps won individual gold at 3 different distances (100 fly, 200 fly, 200 free, 200 IM, 400 IM) in addition to three different relays for a total of eight medal opportunities. In track, sprinters who are willing to stretch their range over three distances have five individual opportunities (100, 100/110 hurdles, 200, 400, 400 hurdles) plus two relays. But the reason that no one has ever tried three different events (in modern tmes), not to mention four or five, is because it would take too much of a physical toll on the body to succeed.

Like Phelps, there are track sprinters who have have world-class range over three distances (eg. Sanya, Allyson, Bolt, X-man), and there have also been athletes who have been able to sprint and hurlde at the elite level simultaneously (eg. Devers, Trammell, Angelo). But if someone like Bolt tried a 100/200/400 triple, he would likely come away with no gold medals, being beaten by athletes who were only competing in a single event. Even if the IAAF contrived a bunch of events at similar distances (eg. 100, 150, 200, 250, 300), I think it would still be next to impossible for Bolt to win five gold medals against people who were only competing in a single event.

[high knees]

19 Olympic Medals, pretty Amazing....Let's see how Bolt will respond!

Not as amazing as one would think. If track had blah blah blah, blah blah blah, blah blah blah there could be a lot of track athletes with 19 medals.

No there wouldn't. Track takes a much bigger toll on your body than nonweight-bearing sports like swimming and yada yada yada....

Obviously, and my point exactly. Because swimming is a non weight bearing sport, people can't do the same things in track as in swimming...you can't have 4 types of each event cause no one could do them all...the sheer amount of opportunities in swimming allows for more medals per person...a perfect example is the one young lady who did the 200 semi and the 100 final within 20 min and still got gold. Would never happen in track. Like I said, impressive, but the NUMBER OF MEDALS EARNED (not the effort involved in getting them relative to other swimmers), is not of the same value as a medal or the medals earned in other sports, which in this case, would be track.....

[j-a-m]

Like I said, impressive, but the NUMBER OF MEDALS EARNED (not the effort involved in getting them relative to other swimmers), is not of the same value as a medal or the medals earned in other sports, which in this case, would be track.....

Exactly. MJ 1996, for example, was a much greater performance than Phelps 2008.

[andyjgt]

In Britain, some people thought Becky Adlington should get KNIGHTED for winning TWO gold medals, aged NINETEEN! (And made a life peer after her forthcoming 800 gold tomorrow...)

Becky might be greater than Kelly Holmes overall, but Kelly in Athens >> Becky in Beijing (even counting the WR)

Imagine if we did have a Michael Phelps this side of the pond...


Anyway, shouldn't the thread title have (gins?) on the end?!

[ATK]

How does this even relate to bolt? Even If he does the 1-2-4x1, and throw the 4x4 and 400 in there for giggles.
It would still take him 4 more Olympics(including London) to get to at least 19.

Regardless like said above, swimming does not take nearly as much toll on your body as other sports. If your looking for the greatest Olympian, swimming is the wrong sport.

[andyjgt]

Tell that to sometime poster on here Morten Aarlia, who rated Alexander Dale Oen (RIP) as greater than Thorkildsen because swimming is one of the 'basic' sports, even though the latter actually won more golds (even including ADO's short-course titles).

He also rated Rodal higher for the same reason, but for me 5-1 means more (even ignoring that Kipketer was absent)

[jazzcyclist]

19 Olympic Medals, pretty Amazing....Let's see how Bolt will respond!

Not as amazing as one would think. If track had blah blah blah, blah blah blah, blah blah blah there could be a lot of track athletes with 19 medals.

No there wouldn't. Track takes a much bigger toll on your body than nonweight-bearing sports like swimming and yada yada yada....

Obviously, and my point exactly. Because swimming is a non weight bearing sport, people can't do the same things in track as in swimming...you can't have 4 types of each event cause no one could do them all...the sheer amount of opportunities in swimming allows for more medals per person...a perfect example is the one young lady who did the 200 semi and the 100 final within 20 min and still got gold. Would never happen in track. Like I said, impressive, but the NUMBER OF MEDALS EARNED (not the effort involved in getting them relative to other swimmers), is not of the same value as a medal or the medals earned in other sports, which in this case, would be track.....

Now you're saying something totally different than you said in your original post. It has nothing to do with swimmers having more opportunities at similar distances and everything to do with swimmers being able to recover quicker than runners becasue of the nature of the sport. In track you just can't do 16 high level races in one week and expect to hold up physically and that's what it's all about. That doesn't diminish what Phelps did because he still possesses great range which is probably as rare in swimming as it is in track. How many other swimmers in the history of the sport have ever won Olympic gold at three different distances in the same Olympics? There's a reason why no one else had ever won eight golds before in swimming. A 100 free/100 fly doesn't impress me nearly as much as a 100 fly/400 IM double. SImilarly, Gail Devers pulled off a successful 100/100 hurdles double at the 1993 world championships, but I think you'll agree that a 100/400 hurdles would have been much more impressive. The other thing that makes track a little tougher is that track is a global sport while swimming is a G-8 sport despite Alia Atkinson's inspiring effort.

[jazzcyclist]

How does this even relate to bolt? Even If he does the 1-2-4x1, and throw the 4x4 and 400 in there for giggles.
It would still take him 4 more Olympics(including London) to get to at least 19.

Regardless like said above, swimming does not take nearly as much toll on your body as other sports. If your looking for the greatest Olympian, swimming is the wrong sport.

I wouldn't say that a swimmer can't be the greatest Olympian but it won't be because of the number of medals won. If Phelps were to win individual gold at four different Olympics, I would put him in the same class with Al Oerter and Carl Lewis.

[jazzcyclist]

Like I said, impressive, but the NUMBER OF MEDALS EARNED (not the effort involved in getting them relative to other swimmers), is not of the same value as a medal or the medals earned in other sports, which in this case, would be track.....

Exactly. MJ 1996, for example, was a much greater performance than Phelps 2008.

I don't know about that. Marie Jose-Perec and Valerie Brisco-Hooks duplicated Johnson's fete, but no other swimmer has won the five individual golds in the same Olympics that Phelps won. I don't count relay medals when making these comparisons.

[dukehjsteve]

Swimming aficionados unite in attacking me, but if I was Dictator of the World, one of my first steps would be the abolishment of the backstroke,breaststroke, and butterfly.


Just go out there and SWIM !!!!

[j-a-m]

If Phelps were to win individual gold at four different Olympics, I would put him in the same class with Al Oerter and Carl Lewis.

In what class would you put Birgit Fischer then? She won kayak gold in six different Olympics.

[j-a-m]

Marie Jose-Perec and Valerie Brisco-Hooks duplicated Johnson's fete,

No, they didn't; MJ broke the WR in his second event and improved it to a whole new level.

[18.99s]

If you take away all the different strokes, and let it be just about swimming the distance by any method desired, how many medals would Phelps win?

How many golds? Probably only the 200m and relays (and there wouldn't be a medley relay).

The way things are shaping up, he might not win ANY individual gold these games. If he can't win individual gold in 3 different Olympics, he can't be classified as the greatest Olympian ever.

[mal]

Swimming aficionados unite in attacking me, but if I was Dictator of the World, one of my first steps would be the abolishment of the backstroke,breaststroke, and butterfly.


Just go out there and SWIM !!!!

Be thankful there isn't a race for the side stroke.

[jazzcyclist]

If Phelps were to win individual gold at four different Olympics, I would put him in the same class with Al Oerter and Carl Lewis.

In what class would you put Birgit Fischer then? She won kayak gold in six different Olympics.

I don't put kayaking in the same class with track & field, swimming, cycling, wrestling, weight-lefting, etc.

[jazzcyclist]

Marie Jose-Perec and Valerie Brisco-Hooks duplicated Johnson's fete,

No, they didn't; MJ broke the WR in his second event and improved it to a whole new level.

I thought the discussion was about Olympic gold medals. But if you want to move the goalposts to a discussion about world records, I must point out to you that track and field athletes are at an even bigger disadvantage compared to swimmers if we start talking world records. Furthermore, I don't equate women's sprint world records with men's sprint world records. IMO Perec's 48.25 is every bit as impressive as Johnson's 19.32 and I'll leave it at that.

[18.99s]

Be thankful there isn't a race for the side stroke.

Or dog-paddle.

[Marlow]

Oerter and Lewis surpass Phelps.
And Lewis surpasses Oerter.
Ergo
Lewis's feats surpass Phelps' size 14 feets.

[jazzcyclist]

If you take away all the different strokes, and let it be just about swimming the distance by any method desired, how many medals would Phelps win?

How many golds? Probably only the 200m and relays (and there wouldn't be a medley relay).

He probably would have won the 200 and 400 in Beijing if there were only freestyle races. But you would also have to eliminate the hurdles races and the steeplechase in track if you were going to level the playing field in that manner.

The way things are shaping up, he might not win ANY individual gold these games. If he can't win individual gold in 3 different Olympics, he can't be classified as the greatest Olympian ever.

I agree with this 100%. Here's a question, what do you think of Zatopek's triple in 1952? In terms of single Olympic performances, how does it compare to Bolt in 2008?

[jazzcyclist]

Swimming aficionados unite in attacking me, but if I was Dictator of the World, one of my first steps would be the abolishment of the backstroke,breaststroke, and butterfly.


Just go out there and SWIM !!!!

Be thankful there isn't a race for the side stroke.

I've heard non-track & field fans say the same thing about the hurdles, the steeplechase and the triple jump.

[Pelpa]

19 Olympic Medals, pretty Amazing....Let's see how Bolt will respond!

This is redundant...Phelps had no snatching to do, in fact, Phelps had been "pretty amazing" compared to Bolt before Bolt even won his first olympic medal...so what's the big deal? This is like reminding us that Jupiter is big and Mercury is small

[j-a-m]

'basic' sports,

Generally a good way to look at it, and then sprinting is more basic than swimming.

[j-a-m]

But you would also have to eliminate the hurdles races and the steeplechase in track if you were going to level the playing field in that manner.

Hurdle races are significantly different from sprints. Steeple, on the other hand, does seem similar to the 5K.

[odelltrclan]

No doubt in my mind that swimming does not compare to track so you cannot compare 19 medals to someone like Lewis. So maybe those who do should not compare.

So many competitors would tell you how incredibly difficult it is to even win a single Olympic medal in one event, let alone multiple events. I think people in the track world trivialize swimming accomplishments of someone Like Phelps or Spitz way too much. If it were really that easy, we would see a heck of a lot more people having accomplished that.

What Phelps has achieved in his career is remarkable. It is rare to be great in more than one event. They demand different abilities and skills that are unique to body types just like in track. It is rare for swimmers to be great at all events though some do. Phelps at one point had the American record or was in top 2 or 3 all time in 100F, 200F, 100Ba, 200Ba, 100Fl, 200Fl, 200IM and 400IM. Near the top of the world in all those events as well. That is no small feat. He was a world record holder and Olympic and world champion as a teenager.

Phelps as the Greatest all around swimmer of all time? Without a doubt. Greatest athlete? Greatest Olympian? Maybe, maybe not. Personally I say NOT. I think what Carl Lewis did was more impressive, besides the multiple events in multiple Olmpics, he had 4 golds in one event in four Olympics and missed out on the 1980 Olympics. Phelps did not even win his signature event (the 200 Butterfly, in 3 Olympics).

[jazzcyclist]

No doubt in my mind that swimming does not compare to track so you cannot compare 19 medals to someone like Lewis. So maybe those who do should not compare.

I agree with you than Lewis' accomplishments are more impressive than Phelps' but what do you mean when you say you can't compare swimming to track? It seems like that's exactly what you are doing here:

"So many competitors would tell you how incredibly difficult it is to even win a single Olympic medal in one event, let alone multiple events. I think people in the track world trivialize swimming accomplishments of someone Like Phelps or Spitz way too much. If it were really that easy, we would see a heck of a lot more people having accomplished that.

What Phelps has achieved in his career is remarkable. It is rare to be great in more than one event. They demand different abilities and skills that are unique to body types just like in track."

[18.99s]

But you would also have to eliminate the hurdles races and the steeplechase in track if you were going to level the playing field in that manner.

That doesn't make much of a difference with the medal comparisons, given that almost nobody wins an individual medal in both a hurdles and flat race in the same Olympics.

Comparisons between hurdles and different strokes in swimming also fail for another reason: Hurdles are externally imposed barriers for which the athletes seek to optimize their technique to get over them, while the non-freestyle strokes in swimming have the contradiction of trying to be the best at swimming with inferior techniques.

The hurdles equivalent in swimming would be something like having big floating cubes blocking every lane at specified intervals and the swimmers had to swim below them. The swimmers would be using their best known technique to get under them and back to the surface quickly, rather than self-limiting their speed by doing the equivalent of running backwards or with hands clasped together.

[j-a-m]

It is rare to be great in more than one event. They demand different abilities and skills that are unique to body types just like in track.

Now I'm not a swimming expert, but the body types of different swimmers seem rather similar to each other.

[jazzcyclist]

But you would also have to eliminate the hurdles races and the steeplechase in track if you were going to level the playing field in that manner.

That doesn't make much of a difference with the medal comparisons, given that almost nobody wins an individual medal in both a hurdles and flat race in the same Olympics.

Comparisons between hurdles and different strokes in swimming also fail for another reason: Hurdles are externally imposed barriers for which the athletes seek to optimize their technique to get over them, while the non-freestyle strokes in swimming have the contradiction of trying to be the best at swimming with inferior techniques.

The hurdles equivalent in swimming would be something like having big floating cubes blocking every lane at specified intervals and the swimmers had to swim below them. The swimmers would be using their best known technique to get under them and back to the surface quickly, rather than self-limiting their speed by doing the equivalent of running backwards or with hands clasped together.

There are no perfect analogies in these discussion but the one you proposed is ridiculous. Furthermore, in swimming there are no restrictions on your backstroke technique like there is for the butterfly and breaststroke, the only stipulation is that you swim on your back. If we were to rank these doubles based on the frequency of attempts at major competitions, I would say that the free/fly double is definitely easier than a sprint/hurdles double, however, the free/back double is harder than the sprint/hurdle. The free/fly double is common, the sprint/hurdle double is rare, but the free/back double is unheard of.

By the way, there are other restrictions in swimming that have to do with the amount of time you stay underwater. Since you can swim faster underwater than on top, guys like David Berkoff had evolved their technique to the point that they were swimming most their race underwater which FINA to step in and limit the underwater portion of the swim to 15 meters per lap.

[Flumpy]

If Phelps were to win individual gold at four different Olympics, I would put him in the same class with Al Oerter and Carl Lewis.

In what class would you put Birgit Fischer then? She won kayak gold in six different Olympics.

And wasn't even able to compete in '84!!!

[j-a-m]

the free/back double is harder than the sprint/hurdle.

Why? There are plenty of participants in the individual medley, which means they train all four techniques.

[skyin' brian]

I'm okay with having different strokes, but I think it dilutes the competition a bit. It would be much more exciting to have all of the best competing for a freestyle crown. In my ideal world, it would be fewer events, but with prizes awarded deeper than 3rd place.

Track is plenty diluted as well. Why do we need 5000, 10000, and marathon for long distance runners? Imagine getting rid of those three events and contesting only an olympic half marathon (or maybe a 15k on the roads - track can get boring for anything over a mile unless field events are going on concurrently IMO) That would be awesome!

[j-a-m]

Why do we need 5000, 10000, and marathon for long distance runners?

Yeah, 5K and 10K seem to come closest to being redundant.