Should Demus be in 4x400 Relay Final


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Re: Should Demus be in 4x400 Relay Final

Postby notlef70 » Fri Jul 27, 2012 8:39 am

iain wrote:
gh wrote:from where I sit the only way Russia can beat the U.S. is to ensure a mismatch on the first leg and get out in front so that the U.S. has to run more than 1600m.

I have to disagree. Russia came very close in 08 without a sub-50 runner. With both the US' best runners doubling, I would expect Russia to win.


"OH YE OF LITTLE FAITH!!!" You can expect Russia to win, however, the 4x400 is a pride thing. With AF and SRR on the team, and Mccorry/Demus or the other young lady, they WILL NOT LOSE!!! Barring injury, or course....
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Re: Should Demus be in 4x400 Relay Final

Postby gennady » Fri Jul 27, 2012 9:00 am

Let us remember 2008, as it were.

Split _SB_ Dif. Leg time
50,32 51,00 -0,68 _51,00 Mary Wineberg
49,83 48,60 1,23 _99,60 Allyson Felix
50,98 50,06 0,92 149,66 Monique Henderson
49,93 48,93 1,00 198,59 Sanya Richards-Ross

50,01 50,60 -0,59 _50,60 Yuliya Gushchina
50,62 49,20 1,42 _99,80 Lyudmila Litvinova
50,11 49,20 0,91 149,00 Tatyana Firova
50,03 49,82 0,21 198,82 Anastasiya Kapachinskaya


The first three Russian girls Won three stages of his relay with a difference 0.66sek.
The Russian team did not lose the relay.
Relay Kapachinskaya lost.
She lost a step Sanya with a difference 0.89sec.
In the finals she loses, but with a smaller difference:
49,62 1 Christine Ohuruogu
50,03 5 Anastasiya Kapachinskaya
-0,41
Here are the results of her last years in the relay:

Split _SB_ Dif. Date
50,03 49,82 0,21 23.08.2008 leg 4 Beijing
50,59 50,67 -0,08 31.08.2003 leg 3 Saint-Denis
49,35 49,22 0,13 31.08.2003 leg 4 Daegu
50,16 50,60 -0,44 01.08.2010 leg 1 Barcelona
49,97 50,76 -0,79 23.08.2009 leg 1 Berlin

The conclusion is simple - she does not relay a fighter, I can not understand why the Russian coaches is hard do not see.
Last edited by gennady on Fri Jul 27, 2012 9:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Should Demus be in 4x400 Relay Final

Postby iain » Fri Jul 27, 2012 9:37 am

Kapchinskaya is slower than Krivoshapka, Gushchina, Firova, Nazarova this year, plus Antyukh will probs be picked ahead. Ergo, Russia win :p
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Re: Should Demus be in 4x400 Relay Final

Postby Marquis » Fri Jul 27, 2012 12:33 pm

The best possible choice for the relay pool is not eligible to run the rounds and that is World Junior Champ Ashley Spencer who skipped the trials to concentrate on the Junior Champs where she destroyed the field. Would have been great experience for the USA's next great 400 runner.
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Re: Should Demus be in 4x400 Relay Final

Postby jazzcyclist » Fri Jul 27, 2012 1:04 pm

gh wrote:The tendency when you are shadowing somebody is pull up (even on the curve) on their outside shoulder. You avoid getting spiked and are meter closer to them than you would be if you stuck to the rail. More distance covered.

Yeah, but the extra distance run on the curves is outweighed by the benefits of drafting for the entire lap.
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Re: Should Demus be in 4x400 Relay Final

Postby gh » Fri Jul 27, 2012 3:50 pm

while it can be handy to have somebody act as a bit of a wind break for you, I've never really bought into the theory that drafting would have any significant effect (or even work) at such slow speeds.
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Re: Should Demus be in 4x400 Relay Final

Postby ATK » Fri Jul 27, 2012 3:52 pm

gh wrote:while it can be handy to have somebody act as a bit of a wind break for you, I've never really bought into the theory that drafting would have any significant effect (or even work) at such slow speeds.

Even so, I doubt it comes close to outweighing the extra distance run.
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Re: Should Demus be in 4x400 Relay Final

Postby j-a-m » Fri Jul 27, 2012 4:09 pm

jazzcyclist wrote:Yeah, but the extra distance run on the curves is outweighed by the benefits of drafting for the entire lap.

What about the rabbit / pace setter effect?
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Re: Should Demus be in 4x400 Relay Final

Postby gh » Fri Jul 27, 2012 4:14 pm

totally different concept on a 400 relay leg than in distance running.
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Re: Should Demus be in 4x400 Relay Final

Postby jazzcyclist » Fri Jul 27, 2012 4:55 pm

gh wrote:while it can be handy to have somebody act as a bit of a wind break for you, I've never really bought into the theory that drafting would have any significant effect (or even work) at such slow speeds.

You're mistaken. At 18 mph for women and 20 mph for men, there is absolutely a measurable draft benefit.
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Re: Should Demus be in 4x400 Relay Final

Postby ATK » Fri Jul 27, 2012 6:01 pm

jazzcyclist wrote:
gh wrote:while it can be handy to have somebody act as a bit of a wind break for you, I've never really bought into the theory that drafting would have any significant effect (or even work) at such slow speeds.

You're mistaken. At 18 mph for women and 20 mph for men, there is absolutely a measurable draft benefit.

Your talking about the fastest athletes ever running at those speeds. If im correct, most of these athletes don't go that fast in the 400m.
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Re: Should Demus be in 4x400 Relay Final

Postby Peter Michaelson » Fri Jul 27, 2012 6:04 pm

NotSoOrdinary:

Please refresh my memory. What happened with Trotter on the relay in Osaka?

aaronk:

Am I missing something? The first split is from the gun to the 800 start line. The second split is from the 800 start line to the finish line. The third and fourth splits are finish line to finish line. As long as you can see the 800 start line (which is the 1 turn stagger line) you should not have a problem.
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Re: Should Demus be in 4x400 Relay Final

Postby jazzcyclist » Fri Jul 27, 2012 6:18 pm

ATK wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote:
gh wrote:while it can be handy to have somebody act as a bit of a wind break for you, I've never really bought into the theory that drafting would have any significant effect (or even work) at such slow speeds.

You're mistaken. At 18 mph for women and 20 mph for men, there is absolutely a measurable draft benefit.

Your talking about the fastest athletes ever running at those speeds. If im correct, most of these athletes don't go that fast in the 400m.

I'm tallking about mid-49 splits for the women and mid-44 splits for the women, which is about average for a American national team, if not slightly below average. The fastest splits of all time would give speeds of 19 mph and 21 mph, respectively.
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Re: Should Demus be in 4x400 Relay Final

Postby ATK » Fri Jul 27, 2012 6:27 pm

jazzcyclist wrote:I'm tallking about mid-49 splits for the women and mid-44 splits for the women, which is about average for a American national team, if not slightly below average. The fastest splits of all time would give speeds of 19 mph and 21 mph, respectively.

curious if you can show me some states on this.
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Re: Should Demus be in 4x400 Relay Final

Postby jazzcyclist » Fri Jul 27, 2012 8:29 pm

ATK wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote:I'm tallking about mid-49 splits for the women and mid-44 splits for the women, which is about average for a American national team, if not slightly below average. The fastest splits of all time would give speeds of 19 mph and 21 mph, respectively.

curious if you can show me some states on this.

It's pretty straightforward math. To calculate the average speed in mph from a 400 time, divide 1440 by the time and multiply by 0.621:

(1440/time) x 0.621 = speed in mph.

Michael Johnson has split 42.91 and Marita Koch has split 47.70. You do the math.
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Re: Should Demus be in 4x400 Relay Final

Postby NotSoOrdinary » Sat Jul 28, 2012 2:14 am

Runnerz76 wrote:You are right GH. I think the USA women's 4x400 should just concentrate on winning the Gold Medal first. The Russians are coming with much more talent than they brought in 2008. Go ahead and give the American women the Gold at your own peril. But I think it will be a hell of a final. It will surely take 3:16 or better to beat the Russians this year.


People have been saying this for the past 3 years #RIP
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Re: Should Demus be in 4x400 Relay Final

Postby NotSoOrdinary » Sat Jul 28, 2012 2:24 am

Peter Michaelson wrote:NotSoOrdinary:

Please refresh my memory. What happened with Trotter on the relay in Osaka?


She handed off I believe 4th or 5th...
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Re: Should Demus be in 4x400 Relay Final

Postby NotSoOrdinary » Sat Jul 28, 2012 2:28 am

I don't think we need to use any calculations or mathematics when it comes down to who's going to win the 4x400m. When was the last time the US lost a major 4x400?

But aside from that, Allyson and Sanya both turn into different runners dependent upon the circumstances. They can push themselves beyond what is expected, purely because they "don't want to let the team down."

Allyson had never been on a major 4x400 relay until 2007 and when she saw how behind the US was she simply closed the gap and in the process ran the fastest split ever. Sanya is the same way. They won't let the US lose.
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Re: Should Demus be in 4x400 Relay Final

Postby Peter Michaelson » Sat Jul 28, 2012 3:09 am

NotSoOrdinary:

The last time the US lost a major 4 x 400 was March 11, 2012.
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Re: Should Demus be in 4x400 Relay Final

Postby NotSoOrdinary » Sat Jul 28, 2012 4:13 am

Peter Michaelson wrote:NotSoOrdinary:

The last time the US lost a major 4 x 400 was March 11, 2012.


I expected a smart alec response like this. Of course, why don't we bring up indoors in a thread specifically talking about outdoors. Not only that, but a race where GB's best team barely beat a USA B-team. I literally could only name Sanya and Natasha on the US team, the other two are complete non-factors.

So let me ask again, more specifically this time:

When was the last time another country defeated a USA A-team (meaning a team that included both AF & SRR) in a major outdoor competition?
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Re: Should Demus be in 4x400 Relay Final

Postby jazzcyclist » Sat Jul 28, 2012 4:20 am

NotSoOrdinary wrote:Allyson had never been on a major 4x400 relay until 2007 and when she saw how behind the US was she simply closed the gap and in the process ran the fastest split ever. Sanya is the same way. They won't let the US lose.

Allyson did not run the fastest split ever.
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Re: Should Demus be in 4x400 Relay Final

Postby NotSoOrdinary » Sat Jul 28, 2012 5:04 am

jazzcyclist wrote:
NotSoOrdinary wrote:Allyson had never been on a major 4x400 relay until 2007 and when she saw how behind the US was she simply closed the gap and in the process ran the fastest split ever. Sanya is the same way. They won't let the US lose.

Allyson did not run the fastest split ever.


Sure she did. AF 48.0 > Flojo 48.1

For multiple reasons.
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Re: Should Demus be in 4x400 Relay Final

Postby jjimbojames » Sat Jul 28, 2012 5:12 am

AF still ran slower than others though - or do you mean fastest American split?
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Re: Should Demus be in 4x400 Relay Final

Postby NotSoOrdinary » Sat Jul 28, 2012 5:56 am

jjimbojames wrote:AF still ran slower than others though - or do you mean fastest American split?


American.
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Re: Should Demus be in 4x400 Relay Final

Postby DJG » Sat Jul 28, 2012 6:35 am

The "other relay" is my main concern, but let me say that
the Russian 4x4 teams I have watched over the years manage
to under-perform when it counts the most.
I expect they will run the fastest qualifying time in the prelims,
only to come in third or fourth in the final.
The US will win this easily...I would lead SRR off and follow with AF...
the other 2 legs will then run comfortably with a big lead that
will get bigger as the others go out too fast and finish too slow.

I also believe this drafting thing is more myth than real at these speeds (sorry Jazz, we
respectfully disagree again) and smart 400 runners pass on the straights and not the turns.
So this "extra distance" thing should not be a factor either.


The US women win by 25 m or more.
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Re: Should Demus be in 4x400 Relay Final

Postby EPelle » Sat Jul 28, 2012 6:41 am

jazzcyclist wrote:
NotSoOrdinary wrote:Allyson had never been on a major 4x400 relay until 2007 and when she saw how behind the US was she simply closed the gap and in the process ran the fastest split ever. Sanya is the same way. They won't let the US lose.

Allyson did not run the fastest split ever.

Fastest world championships split. Ever.
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Re: Should Demus be in 4x400 Relay Final

Postby jazzcyclist » Sat Jul 28, 2012 6:59 am

DJG wrote:I would lead SRR off and follow with AF...
the other 2 legs will then run comfortably with a big lead that
will get bigger as the others go out too fast and finish too slow.

I mentioned in an earlier post why I thought it was a bad idea to put Sanya on scratch leg instead of McCrory. I will have to respectfully disagree with you on this one.
DJG wrote:I also believe this drafting thing is more myth than real at these speeds (sorry Jazz, we respectfully disagree again) and smart 400 runners pass on the straights and not the turns.

This is a science thing, not an opinion thing. Do you believe in physics?
DJG wrote: So this "extra distance" thing should not be a factor either.

I believe gh was talking about the tendency of trailing runners to run on the shoulder of the leading runner through the turn, to the outside of lane one instead of up against the rail.
Last edited by jazzcyclist on Sat Jul 28, 2012 10:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Should Demus be in 4x400 Relay Final

Postby iain » Sat Jul 28, 2012 7:13 am

The Russians didn't underperform in Beijing.
Pre Olympic Times:
2008
USA - 49.74, 49.83, 50.32, 50.80
RUS - 50.02, 50.12, 50.25, 50.51
2012
USA - 49.28, 50.02, 50.06, 50.50
RUS - 49.16, 49.28, 49.72, 50.00

USA = -0.83
RUS = -2.74

From 08 times:
USA - 3:17.71
RUS - 3:16.08
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Re: Should Demus be in 4x400 Relay Final

Postby gennady » Sat Jul 28, 2012 9:49 am

NotSoOrdinary wrote:I don't think we need to use any calculations or mathematics when it comes down to who's going to win the 4x400m. When was the last time the US lost a major 4x400?

But aside from that, Allyson and Sanya both turn into different runners dependent upon the circumstances. They can push themselves beyond what is expected, purely because they "don't want to let the team down."

Allyson had never been on a major 4x400 relay until 2007 and when she saw how behind the US was she simply closed the gap and in the process ran the fastest split ever. Sanya is the same way. They won't let the US lose.

I have already said in one of the posts, Sanya and Allyson great athletes, fighters.
I am to them with great respect.
But look at the schedule for their participation in the Olympics.

Felix: 100heats; 24 hours; 100S/Fin; 48 hours; 200heats; 24 hours; 200S; 24 hours; 200Fin; 24 hours 4х100heats; 24 hours; 4х100Fin; 24 hours; 4х400Fin;(8th start).

Ross: 400heats; 24 hours; 400S; 24 hours; 400Fin; 24 hours; 200heats; 24 hours; 200S; 24 hours; 200Fin; 48 hours; 4х400heats?; 24 hours; 4х400Fin;(8th start).

They are great, but not "iron machines".
Require or rely on their high splits in the 4x400 is not correct and not real.
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Re: Should Demus be in 4x400 Relay Final

Postby DJG » Sat Jul 28, 2012 10:19 am

jazzcyclist wrote:
DJG wrote:I would lead SRR off and follow with AF...
the other 2 legs will then run comfortably with a big lead that
will get bigger as the others go out too fast and finish too slow.

I think that's a bad idea for reason that I mentioned earlier.
I mentioned in an earlier post why I thought it was a bad idea to put Sanya on scratch leg instead of McCrory. I will have to respectfully disagree with you on this one.
DJG wrote:I also believe this drafting thing is more myth than real at these speeds (sorry Jazz, we respectfully disagree again) and smart 400 runners pass on the straights and not the turns.

This is a science thing, not an opinion thing. Do you believe in physics?
DJG wrote: So this "extra distance" thing should not be a factor either.

I believe gh was talking about the tendency of trailing runners to run on the shoulder of the leading runner through the turn, to the outside of lane one instead of up against the rail.


Sure physics is a fine thing...I recall reading that according to physics divers should not be capable of doing some of the moves in their dives that they do.
As for any infinitissimal positive effect a runner may get from basically running in the other runner's shorts, that is negated by the elbow to his mid-section that will shortly be delivered by any competent competitor.

As for the order of the relay, in this 4x4 it won't matter ...but where did you get the habit of
calling one leg the "scratch leg"? at a dog track somewhere?
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Re: Should Demus be in 4x400 Relay Final

Postby ATK » Sat Jul 28, 2012 11:19 am

gennady wrote:Felix: 100heats; 24 hours; 100S/Fin; 48 hours; 200heats; 24 hours; 200S; 24 hours; 200Fin; 24 hours 4х100heats; 24 hours; 4х100Fin; 24 hours; 4х400Fin;(8th start).

Ross: 400heats; 24 hours; 400S; 24 hours; 400Fin; 24 hours; 200heats; 24 hours; 200S; 24 hours; 200Fin; 48 hours; 4х400heats?; 24 hours; 4х400Fin;(8th start).

They are great, but not "iron machines".
Require or rely on their high splits in the 4x400 is not correct and not real.

Neither Felix or SRR will run the heats of either relay.
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Re: Should Demus be in 4x400 Relay Final

Postby gennady » Sat Jul 28, 2012 11:36 am

ATK wrote:
gennady wrote:Felix: "1"-100heats; 24 hours; "2&3"-100S/Fin; 48 hours; "4"-200heats; 24 hours; "5"-200S; 24 hours; "6"-200Fin; 24 hours 4х100heats; 24 hours; "7"-4х100Fin; 24 hours; "8"-4х400Fin;(8th start).

Ross: "1"-400heats; "2"-24 hours; 400S; 24 hours; "3"-400Fin; 24 hours; "4"-200heats; 24 hours; "5"-200S; 24 hours; "6"-200Fin; 48 hours; 4х400heats?; 24 hours; "7"-4х400Fin;(8th start).

They are great, but not "iron machines".
Require or rely on their high splits in the 4x400 is not correct and not real.

Neither Felix or SRR will run the heats of either relay.

Anyway, the final 4x4 is the 8 th and 7 th start, respectively.
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Re: Should Demus be in 4x400 Relay Final

Postby NotSoOrdinary » Sat Jul 28, 2012 2:29 pm

gennady wrote:
NotSoOrdinary wrote:I don't think we need to use any calculations or mathematics when it comes down to who's going to win the 4x400m. When was the last time the US lost a major 4x400?

But aside from that, Allyson and Sanya both turn into different runners dependent upon the circumstances. They can push themselves beyond what is expected, purely because they "don't want to let the team down."

Allyson had never been on a major 4x400 relay until 2007 and when she saw how behind the US was she simply closed the gap and in the process ran the fastest split ever. Sanya is the same way. They won't let the US lose.

I have already said in one of the posts, Sanya and Allyson great athletes, fighters.
I am to them with great respect.
But look at the schedule for their participation in the Olympics.

Felix: 100heats; 24 hours; 100S/Fin; 48 hours; 200heats; 24 hours; 200S; 24 hours; 200Fin; 24 hours 4х100heats; 24 hours; 4х100Fin; 24 hours; 4х400Fin;(8th start).

Ross: 400heats; 24 hours; 400S; 24 hours; 400Fin; 24 hours; 200heats; 24 hours; 200S; 24 hours; 200Fin; 48 hours; 4х400heats?; 24 hours; 4х400Fin;(8th start).

They are great, but not "iron machines".
Require or rely on their high splits in the 4x400 is not correct and not real.


I keep seeing this, "they're going to be too tired" argument, but I don't quite get it.

Firstly, Allyson isn't even guaranteed to make the 100m final.
Secondly her schedule last year was much more cruel with 3 rounds of the 400, and she still narrowly lost the silver in the 200m.

Thirdly, who's to say her and Sanya both won't be included in slow heats/semis? :lol: Allyson was in the least competitive heats last year in the 400.

Lastly, AF won't be struggling through the 200 heats, she's much faster than everyone else. 22.2 is nothing. She knows this race like the back of her hand.

There's no need to be worried about the 4x4.
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Re: Should Demus be in 4x400 Relay Final

Postby gennady » Sat Jul 28, 2012 3:03 pm

The fact that Sanya and Allyson will be like a tigress, will fight to the last in the finals I did not cause the slightest doubt.
What they can do it better than anyone else in the world today, I know very well.
I'm just talking about that in this final we will not see these results.
_SB_ _Split __Dif
49,83 48,60 1,23 Beijing Allyson Felix
49,70 48,00 1,70 Osaka Allyson Felix
49,83 48,75 1,08 Berlin Allyson Felix
49,59 49,33 0,26 Daegu Allyson Felix
49,93 48,93 1,00 Beijing Sanya Richards-Ross
49,52 49,07 0,45 Osaka Sanya Richards-Ross
49,00 48,43 0,57 Berlin Sanya Richards-Ross
49,66 49,30 0,36 Daegu Sanya Richards-Ross

And for this reason that Russian girls will be winners. :D
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Re: Should Demus be in 4x400 Relay Final

Postby mump boy » Sat Jul 28, 2012 3:11 pm

You could put in a US team without Sanya and Alyson and they would still win

It's not about individual speed (especially when run at RUS champs) USA are simply MUCH better really runners than anyone else
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Re: Should Demus be in 4x400 Relay Final

Postby gh » Sat Jul 28, 2012 4:31 pm

yeah, you can crank all the numbers in the world, but they don't translate well in 4x4 racing.
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Re: Should Demus be in 4x400 Relay Final

Postby gennady » Sat Jul 28, 2012 4:46 pm

mump boy wrote:You could put in a US team without Sanya and Alyson and they would still win

It's not about individual speed (especially when run at RUS champs) USA are simply MUCH better really runners than anyone else

In fact, the sport has always guided by results, not emotions.
Just this season, Russian girls are better than US in all the objective indicators.
You do not have any objective argument in the dispute.
For this reason, you still bring the same subjective argument: - "We have always been the best, and for this reason we will win.
I never doubted that the American "T & F" best in the world.
But I do not mix this general situation, the situation in one particular event in one particular season.
If you look objectively at your proposal to run at the Olympics without Alison and Sanya :shock: , in this part of:
Keshia Baker
Deedee Trotter
Francena Mccorory
Diamond Dixon
U.S. can count on the best possible results: 3:20,92 sec.
With this result, the U.S. team is just going to the 5th position after:

1.RUS 3:16,96
2.JAM 3:19,42
3.BLR 3:20,17
4.NGR 3:20,63
5.USA 3:20,92 :lol:
6.GBR 3:23,24
7.UKR 3:25,01
8.FRA 3:25,75
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Re: Should Demus be in 4x400 Relay Final

Postby mump boy » Sat Jul 28, 2012 7:27 pm

gennady wrote:
mump boy wrote:You could put in a US team without Sanya and Alyson and they would still win

It's not about individual speed (especially when run at RUS champs) USA are simply MUCH better really runners than anyone else

In fact, the sport has always guided by results, not emotions.
Just this season, Russian girls are better than US in all the objective indicators.
You do not have any objective argument in the dispute.
For this reason, you still bring the same subjective argument: - "We have always been the best, and for this reason we will win.
I never doubted that the American "T & F" best in the world.
But I do not mix this general situation, the situation in one particular event in one particular season.
If you look objectively at your proposal to run at the Olympics without Alison and Sanya :shock: , in this part of:
Keshia Baker
Deedee Trotter
Francena Mccorory
Diamond Dixon
U.S. can count on the best possible results: 3:20,92 sec.
With this result, the U.S. team is just going to the 5th position after:

1.RUS 3:16,96
2.JAM 3:19,42
3.BLR 3:20,17
4.NGR 3:20,63
5.USA 3:20,92 :lol:
6.GBR 3:23,24
7.UKR 3:25,01
8.FRA 3:25,75


Where on earth have you got BLR and NGR running 3.20 ?!!

NGR are going to run faster than they did with Ogunkoya, Yusuf and Opara despite having no one who's broken 51 this year ?!! and BLR are going to run even faster, beat US who have 3 runners faster than BLR No1 and beat UK by over 3 seconds despite UK top 4 runners being .6 faster on times this year :?

if this is what 'objectivity' gets you i'll stick with actually knowing about stuff, thanks
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Re: Should Demus be in 4x400 Relay Final

Postby NotSoOrdinary » Sat Jul 28, 2012 9:42 pm

mump boy wrote:You could put in a US team without Sanya and Alyson and they would still win


I can't see the future so I won't comment on how well this would go over this year, but in 2008 we would've lost without the both of them. 2009, though :D
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Re: Should Demus be in 4x400 Relay Final

Postby Gabriella » Sun Jul 29, 2012 1:14 am

I don't think mump was being literal, more that the US women lift themselves for the relay, they have a team spirit and desire to raise their game and they run good races. The Russians, on the other hand, flatter to deceive and just never seem to have that same fire.

Gennady I can see what you're saying; on this seasons times, it does look like Russia are the favourites. But the last time they beat the USA in a relay 'fair and square' i.e no DQ or dropped baton, was in 1999. Beijing was very close and we could blame Kapachinskaya's lack of killer instinct for the failure, but no matter how many sub 50 runners they have or where they are on teh world lists they never raise their game the same way the Americans do and their running order is always wrong.
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