Tarmoh being candid

[Marlow]

The stresses were identical on the two of them.

Not really as Felix had the 200 in the bag.

Agreed, and Felix being a high profile athlete, and pro for the last 8 years is much more capable of handling stress.

The stress was indeed the same. The coping mechanisms, not so much.

[Pego]

If you watched the race right now, reviewed the photo finish and were FORCED to declare a winner...who would you pick?

I'd call it a dead heat, that it evidently was. Your anti-Felix bias is rather obvious in the posts above and it ain't pretty.

[TrackFan4Ever]

Tarmoh's primary adviser was her agent. Her coach, Bobby Kersee, wanted her to run.

Fine, but I still don't understand what possible motivation could have been behind her agent's advise.

I doubt there is anything else to the story than a poor decision informed by an agent/manager.

Seriously, if you were in Tarmoh's position, having the chance to compete in the Olympics for the first time in your career, can you imagine even contemplating withdrawal from the run-off just like that?

With regards to the first point, Kim Holland was convinced that Tarmoh had won. The reasons she thought this have been echoed by Tarmoh in her interviews. The primary reason can be found in the article that was written by Tim "punk writer" Layden a few days after the dead heat in the 100.

To the second point, in light of the brain-washing of Holland, I think Tarmoh was convinced she could not beat Felix in a run-off. Don't forget they train together and therefore Tarmoh knows who is the fastest. Also, Felix just dropped a 21.69 in the 200m.

[18.99s]

there is no point giving up and deciding not to fight for your place and then complaining afterwards

I'm still puzzled about the whole situation. I don't understand why the people around Tarmoh persuaded her not to take part, and even if they did, I have no idea why she heeded their advice. I can't help thinking there's more to the story than what is being reported by the media.

One word: Lawyers.

A possible explanation:
She thought her chances were better in the courtroom than in a runoff. If she participated in the runoff, that would be construed as agreeing that the trials race was a dead heat, and if she lost the runoff it would be all over. However, by refusing the runoff, she could maintain disagreement with the dead heat, and held out hope that CAS or another court would rule that she placed 3rd at the trials.

But then after talking it over some more with some lawyers, she realized the chances of winning were too low to be worth spending money to fight it, and none of the lawyers were willing to take such a shaky case on contingency. Unless she's actually planning a lawsuit after the Games for monetary damages.

[EPelle]

This is a made-for-Oprah story. How much will Tarmoh's agent help her pocket in the long run compared to the short 11-seconds it took for her to likely become an also-ran, also-competed in London?

[Daisy]

The stress was indeed the same. The coping mechanisms, not so much.

I disagree, the stresses are not the same, even before the coping mechanisms kick in. I agree they are both in a similar situation, both needed to make a choice to run, toss a coin, or give up their claim. But the stresses each of them had to cope with was not related to the choice. They were a composite of their individual situation (Felix has the 200, Tarmoh has no individual spot), their mental state (Tarmoh feels she was robbed, Felix feels she has a second chance) and their experience (Felix has run in countless stressful championships). Seems to me that Felix was in a far better place.

[preston]

The stress was indeed the same. The coping mechanisms, not so much.

I disagree, the stresses are not the same, even before the coping mechanisms kick in. I agree they are both in a similar situation, both needed to make a choice to run, toss a coin, or give up their claim. But the stresses each of them had to cope with was not related to the choice. They were a composite of their individual situation (Felix has the 200, Tarmoh has no individual spot), their mental state (Tarmoh feels she was robbed, Felix feels she has a second chance) and their experience (Felix has run in countless stressful championships). Seems to me that Felix was in a far better place.

EXACTLY!

[TxHottrack]

The stress was indeed the same. The coping mechanisms, not so much.

I disagree, the stresses are not the same, even before the coping mechanisms kick in. I agree they are both in a similar situation, both needed to make a choice to run, toss a coin, or give up their claim. But the stresses each of them had to cope with was not related to the choice. They were a composite of their individual situation (Felix has the 200, Tarmoh has no individual spot), their mental state (Tarmoh feels she was robbed, Felix feels she has a second chance) and their experience (Felix has run in countless stressful championships). Seems to me that Felix was in a far better place.

Agreed. Well said!

[Blues]

there is no point giving up and deciding not to fight for your place and then complaining afterwards

I'm still puzzled about the whole situation. I don't understand why the people around Tarmoh persuaded her not to take part, and even if they did, I have no idea why she heeded their advice. I can't help thinking there's more to the story than what is being reported by the media.

One word: Lawyers.

A possible explanation:
She thought her chances were better in the courtroom than in a runoff. If she participated in the runoff, that would be construed as agreeing that the trials race was a dead heat, and if she lost the runoff it would be all over. However, by refusing the runoff, she could maintain disagreement with the dead heat, and held out hope that CAS or another court would rule that she placed 3rd at the trials.

But then after talking it over some more with some lawyers, she realized the chances of winning were too low to be worth spending money to fight it, and none of the lawyers were willing to take such a shaky case on contingency. Unless she's actually planning a lawsuit after the Games for monetary damages.

That's definitely a possibility, and the publicity aspect of it sounds possible too. I also agree with Daisy's comments regarding the differences in stress between the two athletes. And since Jeneba seems to feel that she legitimately finished ahead of Allyson in the one race that was supposed to count and that she was able to specifically train to peak for (and thus PR in), she may not have felt that having to re-run the race at a later date, under different race conditions and different bodily conditions, would have necessarily provided the same result or would have been fair. I'm sure that many considered it an upset for her to beat Allyson. Upsets obviously occur for various reasons, but normally one wouldn't expect the same upset to happen twice in a row under a non-identical scenario, and as others have said, if she lost the runoff it would then appear to most that what transpired after she was initially declared to have beaten Allyson in the first race was warranted, when she obviously felt that it wasn't.

Ideally the best athletes should represent the US in each event in the Olympics, but as long as the system is what it is, and comes down to a one or done race in the trials, then Tarmoh's feeling that an injustice was committed seems understandable if she truly believes she finished ahead of Felix in that race.

[Powell]

Ideally the best athletes should represent the US in each event in the Olympics, but as long as the system is what it is, and comes down to a one or done race in the trials, then Tarmoh's feeling that an injustice was committed seems understandable if she truly believes she finished ahead of Felix in that race.

But even if she felt she was treated unjustly, withdrawing to make a point was a case of cutting off the nose to spite the face. Her chances in the run-off might have been slim, but still higher than the 0% chance she had after withdrawing.

18.99's court case theory sounds a bit far fetched. If anything, I'd be more inclined to believe the rumors of a back room deal with Nike.

[Blues]

Ideally the best athletes should represent the US in each event in the Olympics, but as long as the system is what it is, and comes down to a one or done race in the trials, then Tarmoh's feeling that an injustice was committed seems understandable if she truly believes she finished ahead of Felix in that race.

But even if she felt she was treated unjustly, withdrawing to make a point was a case of cutting off the nose to spite the face. Her chances in the run-off might have been slim, but still higher than the 0% chance she had after withdrawing.

18.99's court case theory sounds a bit far fetched. If anything, I'd be more inclined to believe the rumors of a back room deal with Nike.

A behind the scenes deal seems like a distinct possibility too, although if there was a deal that she voluntarily accepted and wasn't strong-armed into accepting, you'd think she might tend to be a little more reserved in her comments...

[Marlow]

The stress was indeed the same. The coping mechanisms, not so much.

I disagree, the stresses are not the same, even before the coping mechanisms kick in.

As usual, semantic differential has kicked in. The EXTERNAL stress (to which I referred) was identical: they both faced the prospect of a run-off. The INTERNAL stress (what each of us creates in ourselves) was obviously different. I handle stress completely differently than many of my colleagues, which is why I'm always happy and they are often 'stressed' out. Tarmoh made HERSELF miserable, not the challenge of a run-off, which Felix readily accepted. It was NOT a given that Felix would win. If it were, she would have won the first time.

[t_monk]

The stress was indeed the same. The coping mechanisms, not so much.

I disagree, the stresses are not the same, even before the coping mechanisms kick in. I agree they are both in a similar situation, both needed to make a choice to run, toss a coin, or give up their claim. But the stresses each of them had to cope with was not related to the choice. They were a composite of their individual situation (Felix has the 200, Tarmoh has no individual spot), their mental state (Tarmoh feels she was robbed, Felix feels she has a second chance) and their experience (Felix has run in countless stressful championships). Seems to me that Felix was in a far better place.

CO-SIGN!!!

[toyracer]

Again, look at what swimming has determined is appropriate. The have touch plates which is essentially like having an almost perfect array of cameras all around. They do not make distinctions down as far as their timing will allow them because they cannot measure the pool lengths that accurately. That is, when the uncertainties are larger then the measured differentials you have at least a 30+% chance of picking the loser when you have selected athlete A over B.

The difference is that swimming involves racing inside a physical structure that is man made, and differences in the casting of the wall the touch plates are mounted are exceeded by the available margin of timing precision. That's understood.

For the 100m the athletes all start behind the same line and race toward the same finish line. The painted finish line on the track is there for visual reference, nothing more. The important line is the one "drawn" by the camera, which technically is same for all athletes. Importantly in the case of camera measurement the line is in the same place for all runners, provided that the camera is positioned exactly perpendicular to the track itself. Now, therein lays a dilemma; it has to be accepted that the camera is properly positioned; it cannot be contemplated that it is out of by position by even half a degree, because an argument can then be made for parallax. So once it is accepted that the camera is positioned correctly it therefor places the finish line in the same position for all runners, unlike the man made swimming pool with casting imperfections. Unlike the swimming pool the argument can't be made that the camera is too precise (frames per second) in determining position; the opposite is true. The more fps the better.

There was a second photo, captured at 5.000 fps, which must have confirmed this finding and validated the ruling.

This is the first mention I've seen of a second, more accurate, photo. Can you share a reference?

[Daisy]

The EXTERNAL stress (to which I referred) was identical: they both faced the prospect of a run-off.

I agree it's all semantics. But my point was that the composite of external stresses were different for the two athletes. You're just picking the one that IS the same to make your point. I can live with the stress of this disagreement though Unless you want to go outside for a fight and then I'll just have to fold.

[Marlow]

I can live with the stress of this disagreement though Unless you want to go outside for a fight and then I'll just have to fold.

You were bluffing?! You had me at 'go outside' - I was halfway to my car!

[preston]

The stress was indeed the same. The coping mechanisms, not so much.

I disagree, the stresses are not the same, even before the coping mechanisms kick in.

As usual, semantic differential has kicked in. The EXTERNAL stress (to which I referred) was identical: they both faced the prospect of a run-off. The INTERNAL stress (what each of us creates in ourselves) was obviously different. I handle stress completely differently than many of my colleagues, which is why I'm always happy and they are often 'stressed' out. Tarmoh made HERSELF miserable, not the challenge of a run-off, which Felix readily accepted. It was NOT a given that Felix would win. If it were, she would have won the first time.

Wrong! Stess is by it's nature individual. But, you're hell bent on not accepting that you're dead wrong - even "redefining" words after you realize that you have no legs to stand on in your post ("I meant External for all of you who don't read minds"). What you call semantics has turned into parsing masturbation; a bad habit that you've developed that has blinded you to reality - even though it makes you warm and fuzzy.

[Marlow]

something . . . anything . . .

Wrong!

Malmo is very proud of you, bro! BruTex too.
You are carrying on noble work . . .

[preston]

[...The important line is the one "drawn" by the camera, which technically is same for all athletes. ...So once it is accepted that the camera is positioned correctly it therefor places the finish line in the same position for all runners

This is wrong, too. If it were to go to court, the fact that the camera was "perfectly perpendicular" is not nearly as important that the line be 100m - even if it were the same for all people. Clearly a line at say 99m would have favored Tarmoh and possibly a line at 101m would have favored Felix (she was closing faster...it's possible). A race for 100m would then be the most relevant expedition to find. 26mi235, is right, when the numbers get too small it's better to just call it a tie. Because I'm sure it would be difficult to guarantee that there was less than a 2mm variation in the line between the lanes.

[Marlow]

This is wrong, too.

Now you're just showing off, dude. We give up - you win the award as MOST contentious person on the board. Congrats for that!!

[i have this mental image of you, standing up at your computer, shouting, "Why must I be surrounded by such cretinous imbeciles??!!"]

[gh]

You're both within an inch of missing the Olympic discussions. Forewarned is forearmed.

[lexvid]

You mean this was the very 1st time she or anyone else has been dealt a bad or unfair hand? Newsflash - life isn't fair. Rather cut throat at times.

Maybe she did edge Felix but maybe not. The photo finish result was enough in doubt that a seasoned veteran questioned his own call. The question for Tarmoh and others is, how will you respond?

I feel bad for Tarmoh but she DID have a chance to fight for a spot and she turned that down no matter how fair or unfair you believe this was. Not many people get a 2nd chance at the thing they want.

As far as stress, I agree that Tarmoh was probably under a great deal more than Felix because she had not qualified for another individual event. But this can work both ways by making you more determined. Fight or Flight. Apparently she chose flight and is regretting this decision judging by the comments that have been made by her and by others supporting her stance.

[Conor Dary]

Are we really back to track's equivalent of how many angels can fit on a pin?

[Pego]

Are we really back to track's equivalent of how many angels can fit on a pin?

Let me count the number of metaphysical (or close to it) concepts proposed/discussed in these Tarmoh/Felix threads.

1. Phantom finish line.
2. Phantom extrapolations.
3. Haggling over a difference of 1 cm (less than the length of a female nipple ).
4. Mind of the finish line judge.
5. Mind of each contestants at different times.
6. Mind of USTAF powers that be.
7. Fantom advice of the participants' coaches/agents/relatives/friends.

I might have missed some.

[EPelle]

This is the first mention I've seen of a second, more accurate, photo. Can you share a reference?

The second photo (at 5.000 fps) hasn't been released. I don't have knowledge of it being more accurate with respect to the position of both athletes' torsos at the line. However, given that there are opposite high-resolution side photos of the finish line, the judges had made the right verdict based on what they had available to work with.

[Gebrucilassie]

Are we really back to track's equivalent of how many angels can fit on a pin?

Let me count the number of metaphysical (or close to it) concepts proposed/discussed in these Tarmoh/Felix threads.

1. Phantom finish line.
2. Phantom extrapolations.
3. Haggling over a difference of 1 cm (less than the length of a female nipple ).
4. Mind of the finish line judge.
5. Mind of each contestants at different times.
6. Mind of USTAF powers that be.
7. Fantom advice of the participants' coaches/agents/relatives/friends.
8.Backroom Nike conspiracy
I might have missed some.

There I think we are complete now. God help us

[toyracer]

[...The important line is the one "drawn" by the camera, which technically is same for all athletes. ...So once it is accepted that the camera is positioned correctly it therefor places the finish line in the same position for all runners

This is wrong, too. If it were to go to court, the fact that the camera was "perfectly perpendicular" is not nearly as important that the line be 100m - even if it were the same for all people. Clearly a line at say 99m would have favored Tarmoh and possibly a line at 101m would have favored Felix (she was closing faster...it's possible). A race for 100m would then be the most relevant expedition to find. 26mi235, is right, when the numbers get too small it's better to just call it a tie. Because I'm sure it would be difficult to guarantee that there was less than a 2mm variation in the line between the lanes.

It is not wrong. First, the presumption is that the camera is placed exactly at the 100m mark (aka finish line) for a 100m race (I really didn't think I needed to state that but apparently I did). Then it is presumed that it placed exactly perpendicular to the track. Those two presumptions are in place once a camera system is being employed for any race; correct finish line placement and exactly perpendicular.

Unless the argument were to evolve into aspects like lens distortion or optic distortion due to atmospheric conditions I don't see how it can be argued that an optical line as seen by the camera is going to vary at all, especially across the relatively short distance of the eight lanes.

In any case, I was pointing out the differences in timing swimming and timing track; the important point is that in swimming the limitation for race length accuracy is the build quality of the pool not the fps resolution of the camera whilst in track it is the opposite.

[Conor Dary]

Unless the argument were to evolve into aspects like lens distortion or optic distortion due to atmospheric conditions I don't see how it can be argued that an optical line as seen by the camera is going to vary at all, especially across the relatively short distance of the eight lanes.

Along with metaphysics we now have General Relativity. The Brownian Motion will soon follow. Perhaps we should blame it all on the Ether.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michelson% ... experiment

[Conor Dary]

I think you guys should contact NBC about doing a whole show on this topic. Besides the metaphysics, the program could have psychics, clairvoyants, taroh card readers, palm readers, spoon benders, and even Uri Geller on the show. Find out what really happened.

[Jackaloupe]

I realize this esoteric discussion has gone waaay beyond the earlier inanities of which BodyPart should be (arbitrarily revisionistically?!?) designated, but I can't let this one pass: " If a finger gets their (sic) first, I don't see what the problem is."

Well the "problem" is World Records would suddenly be changed by ~1/10 second, or more by "divers". Howsabout measuring Long and Triple Jump by the first break in the sand, instead of that stray hand, or bum, that so often "backtracks"?

[Daisy]

Howsabout measuring Long and Triple Jump by the first break in the sand, instead of that stray hand, or bum, that so often "backtracks"?

This is a good idea, the trailing hand stuff has always bothered me. And we can measure from where they take-off rather than to the edge of the board.

[Tuariki]

It is not wrong. First, the presumption is that the camera is placed exactly at the 100m mark (aka finish line) for a 100m race (I really didn't think I needed to state that but apparently I did). Then it is presumed that it placed exactly perpendicular to the track. Those two presumptions are in place once a camera system is being employed for any race; correct finish line placement and exactly perpendicular.

We must always presume the officials are right. That they always place the camera in exactly the right spot, right down to the nearest millimetre. We must always accept that the distance between the start line and the finish line for each lane is exactly 100,000.00 millimetres because the officials tell us the people painting the lines would never get it wrong.

That's why Jessica Ennis set a new PR in the hurdles a few weeks ago. Of course there were 10 hurdles. Officials are never wrong.

Of course it was a tie. But good on Tarmoh for giving those of us with nothing better to do a month's worth of great inspiring debate over much ado about nothing.

[Conor Dary]

Maybe the problem is that Hayward Field is not operating in a Euclidean mathematical Universe. Perhaps, Hayward Field is actually in a Hyperbolic Space, where no unique parallel line passes through a point. This would explain a lot.

https://encrypted-tbn2.google.com/image ... 8xK1K0ajDt

[26mi235]

In any case, I was pointing out the differences in timing swimming and timing track; the important point is that in swimming the limitation for race length accuracy is the build quality of the pool not the fps resolution of the camera whilst in track it is the opposite.

And people are missing the point. Swimming does not use the next higher level of precision in its timing even though it is available because the rest of the apparatus has larger error margins than the timing distinction. Thus, when the noise (uncertainty) in the measured distance and other elements (differentials in being able to hear the starter's gun) is larger than the differntial signal that you might measure at the finish (e.g., the difference in the positions of the torso or the timing differential in swimming) then it becomes meaningless to pick a winner based on that one element of difference because there is about a 50% chance that you will be wrong.

You might pick, but be under no illusion that you actually determined the winner (correctly). In these cases it is a tie. It only matters here because eventually that have to select one athlete as the entrant and one as the alternate. Swimming as realized that this is the case and the do not use the timing to break that tie.

As far as Tarmoh goes, virtually all of her probability of getting a medal come from participating in the relay and virtually none rests with her placing in the individual 100m

[fourjz]

Tarmoh's primary adviser was her agent. Her coach, Bobby Kersee, wanted her to run.

Fine, but I still don't understand what possible motivation could have been behind her agent's advise.

I doubt there is anything else to the story than a poor decision informed by an agent/manager.

Seriously, if you were in Tarmoh's position, having the chance to compete in the Olympics for the first time in your career, can you imagine even contemplating withdrawal from the run-off just like that?

First of all most people that have commented about her "agents advice" have made the wrong assumption that the agent told ,and or counseled Jeneba Tarmoh to pullout of the runoff.Jeneba made the decision in her own "heart" to pullout of the notorious runoff scenario.It was'nt the agent who "gave bad advice".That story just is'nt the truth.