Penn State/State Pen [split]


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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby lonewolf » Mon Jul 23, 2012 1:04 pm

Marlow wrote:[I have great empathy for all the truly innocent people who will be negatively affected by this sentence, but, on the other hand, the crime was heinous, and heads must roll. Collateral damage is a bitch.

Amen!
The fact that there are still Paterno defenders that just don't get it or don't care emphasizes the need to get their attention by draconian measures.
There will still be some who put Penn State football ahead of punishing pedophile enablers but at least they will know the consequences.
Penn State got off easy.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby IanS_Liv » Mon Jul 23, 2012 1:22 pm

The $60 million fund for victims and charities, and most importantly keeping it independent of Penn State control, is the sanction that made me the happiest.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Marlow » Mon Jul 23, 2012 1:37 pm

Daisy wrote:<y stance is that they should be paid and not be regarded as full time students when they are actually playing. My main concern is about the academic mission being compromised. One sure fire way to do that is to pretend that the student athletes have time to study. Or worse, create soft courses that they can pass at the same time as being a 'professional' athlete.

There certainly are horror stories, but there's also the Andrew Lucks of D1 who graduate with very real degrees in difficult majors.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby j-a-m » Mon Jul 23, 2012 1:39 pm

lonewolf wrote:Penn State got off easy.

If you compare it to Ohio State, Miami, or SMU back in the day, then yes, Penn State got off easy. What bothers me are not the sanctions as such, but the language used by the NCAA. This was not about a culture that put winning ahead of others things, this was about administrators covering up horrible crimes, plain and simple.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby TN1965 » Mon Jul 23, 2012 2:33 pm

j-a-m wrote:This was not about a culture that put winning ahead of others things, this was about administrators covering up horrible crimes, plain and simple.


And you think two are unrelated? What then do you think was the motivation of the administrators to cover up the crime?
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby j-a-m » Mon Jul 23, 2012 2:42 pm

TN1965 wrote:What then do you think was the motivation of the administrators to cover up the crime?

keep their jobs.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby lonewolf » Mon Jul 23, 2012 3:12 pm

j-a-m wrote:
TN1965 wrote:What then do you think was the motivation of the administrators to cover up the crime?

keep their jobs.

If so, they were thinking bassakward. Had they immediately reported and prosecuted Sandusky they would have kept their jobs...letting it go for fourteen years ensured they would be booted when found out.
They were just covering Penn State's (and Sandusky's) ass. IMO.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Marlow » Mon Jul 23, 2012 3:14 pm

j-a-m wrote:
TN1965 wrote:What then do you think was the motivation of the administrators to cover up the crime?

keep their jobs.

I think it was deeper than that . . . in the Navy there was always the idea of "not on my watch!" You don't want to be the guy who let everyone else down.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby jazzcyclist » Mon Jul 23, 2012 3:24 pm

j-a-m wrote:
TN1965 wrote:What then do you think was the motivation of the administrators to cover up the crime?

keep their jobs.

If they had been timely in their disclosure, why would they fear for their jobs?
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby j-a-m » Mon Jul 23, 2012 4:11 pm

jazzcyclist wrote:If they had been timely in their disclosure, why would they fear for their jobs?

Yes, and in addition to doing the wrong thing, they also made the wrong decision in terms of their job security. What I was trying to say is that whatever the administrators' reasons were to cover up those crimes, it had less to do with sports; and more to do with the general dynamics in a larger organisation, in which people follow the herd instead of doing what's right.

And that's where the NCAA gets it wrong when it talks about a culture "where winning was more important than everything else", instead of a culture of "following the herd".
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Conor Dary » Tue Jul 24, 2012 6:09 am

lonewolf wrote:
j-a-m wrote:
TN1965 wrote:What then do you think was the motivation of the administrators to cover up the crime?

keep their jobs.

If so, they were thinking bassakward. Had they immediately reported and prosecuted Sandusky they would have kept their jobs...letting it go for fourteen years ensured they would be booted when found out.
They were just covering Penn State's (and Sandusky's) ass. IMO.


From I have gathered from what I read in the papers, is that Paterno never wanted to turn Sandusky in. And the President, AD and others just kowtowed to the football god, Paterno.
Why they didn't realize that put them in deep shit later is amazing, but I suppose getting into positions of power at PSU required being spineless when it came to Paterno.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby jazzcyclist » Tue Jul 24, 2012 6:50 am

Conor Dary wrote:From I have gathered from what I read in the papers, is that Paterno never wanted to turn Sandusky in. And the President, AD and others just kowtowed to the football god, Paterno.
Why they didn't realize that put them in deep shit later is amazing, but I suppose getting into positions of power at PSU required being spineless when it came to Paterno.

I think that's exactly what happened. Paterno was blinded by personal loyalty, and because of his power, he was able to get all the other people involved to follow him off the cliff. I think Joe Boeheim gave some insight into Paterno's thinking when he had his come-to-Jesus moment after tapes were released than confirmed the allegations against his longtime assistant Bernie Fine. Initially, Boeheim defended Fine fervently:

"I supported a friend. I think it's important what I did. I'm proud I did that. I've known him for 46 years. We went to school together. I think I owed him a debt of allegiance."

But then the tapes came out and he saw his whole career flashing before his eyes. Here's an excerpt from his emotional, voice-quivering press conference:

I believe I misspoke very badly in my response to the allegations that have been made.

I shouldn’t have questioned what the accusers expressed or their motives. I am really sorry that I did that and I regret any harm that I caused. It was insensitive to the individuals involved and especially to the overall issue of child abuse.

What I said last week was out of loyalty. I reacted without thinking. I couldn’t believe what I was hearing. I’m trying to learn from my mistake, and this has been a hard time.


Keep in mind that college basketball insiders have said that taking ballboys on road trips is unheard of, and it's almost impossible to believe that Boeheim didn't suspect that something was a amiss with Fine. Overall, I believe that personal loyalty is a human character flaw a lot more often than it's a virtue.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby odelltrclan » Tue Jul 24, 2012 7:59 am

jazzcyclist wrote:"I supported a friend. I think it's important what I did. I'm proud I did that. I've known him for 46 years. We went to school together. I think I owed him a debt of allegiance."

Overall, I believe that personal loyalty is a human character flaw a lot more often than it's a virtue.


That issue gets compounded if the "friend" insists nothing took place and convinces the other of that, that the "event" that was reported was a misunderstanding. If you have been a friend of someone for a very long period of time you may have a difficult time believing that what was reported was the truth, or the full truth. If that loyal friend promises what was misinterpreted was an isolated incident that loyalty may become even more difficult. I am sure that there are many a loyal friend who knowingly covered up the action of friends without knowing the pervasiveness of their friends actions.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Conor Dary » Tue Jul 24, 2012 8:20 am

odelltrclan wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote:"I supported a friend. I think it's important what I did. I'm proud I did that. I've known him for 46 years. We went to school together. I think I owed him a debt of allegiance."

Overall, I believe that personal loyalty is a human character flaw a lot more often than it's a virtue.


That issue gets compounded if the "friend" insists nothing took place and convinces the other of that, that the "event" that was reported was a misunderstanding. If you have been a friend of someone for a very long period of time you may have a difficult time believing that what was reported was the truth, or the full truth. If that loyal friend promises what was misinterpreted was an isolated incident that loyalty may become even more difficult. I am sure that there are many a loyal friend who knowingly covered up the action of friends without knowing the pervasiveness of their friends actions.


All true. That is probably now why it is a crime for an administrator to not report it.

Remember Paterno was all powerful at Penn State. In 2004 the school tried to get him to retire and he said forget it and the President and AD wilted. That is pretty unique, even in big time football programs. Even when this scandal was breaking out last year, Paterno was working on getting a better contract, with more money. Paterno and everyone around had put the guy on such a pedestal that he thought, and everyone else, he was above approach, both morally and legally.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby jazzcyclist » Tue Jul 24, 2012 8:26 am

Conor Dary wrote:All true. That is probably now why it is a crime for an administrator to not report it.

Remember Paterno was all powerful at Penn State. In 2004 the school tried to get him to retire and he said forget it and the President and AD wilted. That is pretty unique, even in big time football programs. Even when this scandal was breaking out last year, Paterno was working on getting a better contract, with more money. Paterno and everyone around had put the guy on such a pedestal that he thought, and everyone else, he was above approach, both morally and legally.

Also remember that it still wasn't easy to get the board to fire him. The Governor, the Cingressman and both U.S. Senators had to go to State College and use a combination of begging and arm-twisting before they finally gave in.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Conor Dary » Tue Jul 24, 2012 8:31 am

Paterno was apparently a scholar of Greek and Latin. Tragically, he forgot the story of Icarus.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Marlow » Tue Jul 24, 2012 9:36 am

Conor Dary wrote:Paterno was apparently a scholar of Greek and Latin. Tragically, he forgot the story of Icarus.

This story is indeed a Greek tragedy - heroic flaws in otherwise noble heroes, hidden secrets that ruin everyone involved, no winners in the end.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Conor Dary » Tue Jul 24, 2012 9:37 am

This might be an indication of what awaits the exPSU officials:

    Msgr. William J. Lynn, the first Roman Catholic official in the United States to be convicted of covering up sexual abuses by priests under his supervision, was sentenced to three to six years in prison on Tuesday.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/25/us/ph ... se.html?hp
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Marlow » Tue Jul 24, 2012 10:13 am

What about the cops who were indeed notified in one case?
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Daisy » Tue Jul 24, 2012 10:19 am

Marlow wrote:What about the cops who were indeed notified in one case?

And on and on. In short, the whole of Happy Valley is tainted. Their program had reached cult status as shown by the denial within the current student body to this day.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Master Po » Tue Jul 24, 2012 1:43 pm

In light of the removal of the Paterno statue, I have been thinking a lot in recent days about the fact that the statue was there at all (installed in 2001). The fact that this statue was installed while Paterno was still the coach is, imo, emblematic of some of the problems at Penn State. I never knew the statue was there, and so was more surprised at its presence at all than at any of the responses to its removal.

So, I am really trying to come up with another case in which a sports figure -- an athlete or coach -- has been honored/commemorated/memorialized in a statue or other such way (jersey retired, etc.) while he or she is still engaged actively in the specific athletic role or career that led to the interest in commemoration in the first place. I'm not talking about the level of the US postage stamp "you have to be dead" rule (which I note in passing wasn't observed in the case of Elvis, but that's another story :wink: ); rather, I am thinking of the more general practice where the sports figure, by the time he or she is commemorated/etc., may still be living but is normally retired from or in some way far beyond active competition/participation in the role that made them commemoration-worthy in whatever context they are being honored. I know that someone may be honored in some way for her or his playing career, and now may be a coach or executive -- but that's different -- that person is being commemorated for being a player, and isn't a player any longer (and isn't going to return to that context). So, it seems exceptional (and odd) to me that the statue was installed at all back in 2001. It "commemorated" his coaching excellence at PSU while he was still in the practice of being the head coach at PSU. (And it did so in a particularly strong commemorative/memorial sort of way, with a statue, which I think is really unusual for the person still in the role, as I have tried to describe here.)

Right now, I can't think of another example to put alongside the Paterno statue being installed in 2001, while he was still head coach. Maybe this happens all the time, but I can't think of comparable cases. Does anyone else have examples?
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby jazzcyclist » Tue Jul 24, 2012 1:51 pm

Some Penn State trustees and alumni are mad at the President for caving to the NCAA without even briefing them. They feel Penn State would have been better off fighting it in court. Since even Mark Emmert admitted that Penn State hadn't violated any NCAA rules, and that the Sandusky scandal was outside the normal purview of their authority, they might have a point.

Penn State President Rodney Erickson drew fire from alumni and trustees Monday for signing the consent agreement that doomed Penn State to a four-year bowl ban, erased 112 football victories, reduced football scholarships and fined the university $60 million.

Some argued that Erickson caved to outside pressure and should have fought for lesser penalties or reserved Penn State’s right to appeal.

Some blasted the president’s decision to sign the consent agreement setting out the terms on Sunday night before he had briefed the full board. They called that an eerie echo of the leadership problems that helped lead Penn State to its problems in the first place.

Erickson, in a limited round of media interviews Monday afternoon, called the NCAA sanctions a “take it or leave it” deal that wasn’t going to get any better.


http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/index. ... nn_st.html
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby lonewolf » Tue Jul 24, 2012 2:13 pm

jazzcyclist wrote: Since even Mark Emmert admitted that Penn State hadn't violated any NCAA rules, and that the Sandusky scandal was outside the normal purview of their authority, they might have a point.

An excellent example that authority is not granted, it is seized.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Daisy » Tue Jul 24, 2012 2:14 pm

Master Po wrote:I can't think of another example to put alongside the Paterno statue being installed in 2001, while he was still head coach. Maybe this happens all the time, but I can't think of comparable cases. Does anyone else have examples?

Barry Alvarez has a statue that was erected in 2006. http://photos.news.wisc.edu/photos/5627/view

That was one year after he transitioned from football coach to athletic director. Not quite the same but he is still has massive influence on the campus.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby KevinM » Tue Jul 24, 2012 2:14 pm

Master Po wrote:Right now, I can't think of another example to put alongside the Paterno statue being installed in 2001, while he was still head coach. Maybe this happens all the time, but I can't think of comparable cases. Does anyone else have examples?


Dean Smith coached for 11 or 12 years in a building named after him. The practice seems to be getting a bit more common, especially with the naming of courts, such as Coach K court at Duke and (I believe) Pat Summitt court at Tennessee.

And I agree - it's as puzzling/disturbing in those three examples as it was in State College (though a statue takes the false idol thing to a ridiculous extreme).
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby TN1965 » Tue Jul 24, 2012 2:21 pm

Master Po wrote:Right now, I can't think of another example to put alongside the Paterno statue being installed in 2001, while he was still head coach. Maybe this happens all the time, but I can't think of comparable cases. Does anyone else have examples?


Michael Jordan statue was bulit after his first retirement. Of course, he "unretired" soon after and played at the United Center with his statue in front of the building.

And his alma mater named the newly built arena "Deam Smith Center" while Dean was still actively coaching. I am glad UNC at least didn't build his statue!
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby TN1965 » Tue Jul 24, 2012 2:24 pm

KevinM wrote:Dean Smith coached for 11 or 12 years in a building named after him. The practice seems to be getting a bit more common, especially with the naming of courts, such as Coach K court at Duke and (I believe) Pat Summitt court at Tennessee.


Summit also has a street named after her in Knoxville, along with several former football coaches. I don't know if any of the football coaches got a street named after them while they were still coaching.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby KevinM » Tue Jul 24, 2012 2:31 pm

TN1965 wrote:
KevinM wrote:Dean Smith coached for 11 or 12 years in a building named after him. The practice seems to be getting a bit more common, especially with the naming of courts, such as Coach K court at Duke and (I believe) Pat Summitt court at Tennessee.


Summit also has a street named after her in Knoxville, along with several former football coaches. I don't know if any of the football coaches got a street named after them while they were still coaching.


Pretty sure Fulmer was.

I imagine he and Paterno are the only ones to have such honors and to also be canned.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby jazzcyclist » Tue Jul 24, 2012 3:38 pm

Master Po wrote:Right now, I can't think of another example to put alongside the Paterno statue being installed in 2001, while he was still head coach. Maybe this happens all the time, but I can't think of comparable cases. Does anyone else have examples?

Nick Saban at Alabama? He got a statue after only three years of coaching.

http://dailybamablog.files.wordpress.co ... update.jpg
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby KevinM » Tue Jul 24, 2012 3:51 pm

jazzcyclist wrote:
Master Po wrote:Right now, I can't think of another example to put alongside the Paterno statue being installed in 2001, while he was still head coach. Maybe this happens all the time, but I can't think of comparable cases. Does anyone else have examples?

Nick Saban at Alabama? He got a statue after only three years of coaching.


Not surprising, but good lord. Pretty sure no one wants to know what has been swept under the carpet over the years at some of the SEC, Big 12, and old SWC schools.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Conor Dary » Tue Jul 24, 2012 4:17 pm

lonewolf wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote: Since even Mark Emmert admitted that Penn State hadn't violated any NCAA rules, and that the Sandusky scandal was outside the normal purview of their authority, they might have a point.

An excellent example that authority is not granted, it is seized.


Exactly.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby preston » Wed Jul 25, 2012 6:15 am

I personally think Joe Paterno DESERVED to have a statue at Penn State; we have to remember that the Athletic Departments of most schools are seperate entities so if they want to give a coach - or an athlete - a statue, then I don't have a problem with it.

I also can't think of a single reason why the world even knows about Penn State aside from Joe Paterno/Happy Valley/Beaver Stadium/etc. Yes, they've had academic excellence but so has Carnegie-Mellon, Pitt, and West Virginia. PSU pride has to do with their Football excellence; there would be far fewer proud alumni sporting their logo etc if all they were were an academic powerhouse - and that goes for a bunch of other schools, too. PSU has had some athletes in other sports over the years, but when you think of Penn State you think of Football and Joe Paterno. Joe Paterno MADE Penn State. notre dame football MADE notre dame Purposely made small because that school IS everything that is wrong with college athletics.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Marlow » Wed Jul 25, 2012 7:24 am

Agree with you, Preston, about just how important football is to some school's entire identity, and Penn St is completely vested in it. I never was enamored with JoePa, but certainly didn't foresee something like this. The reality is that MANY schools have ugly skeletons in their closets and now they are even more desperately trying to get rid of them.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby catson52 » Wed Jul 25, 2012 7:34 am

preston wrote:I personally think Joe Paterno DESERVED to have a statue at Penn State; we have to remember that the Athletic Departments of most schools are seperate entities so if they want to give a coach - or an athlete - a statue, then I don't have a problem with it.

I also can't think of a single reason why the world even knows about Penn State aside from Joe Paterno/Happy Valley/Beaver Stadium/etc. Yes, they've had academic excellence but so has Carnegie-Mellon, Pitt, and West Virginia. PSU pride has to do with their Football excellence; there would be far fewer proud alumni sporting their logo etc if all they were were an academic powerhouse - and that goes for a bunch of other schools, too. PSU has had some athletes in other sports over the years, but when you think of Penn State you think of Football and Joe Paterno. Joe Paterno MADE Penn State. notre dame football MADE notre dame Purposely made small because that school IS everything that is wrong with college athletics.


Whilst what you wrote reflects "what is" it is not "what should be". College sports taking over universities and essentially dictating or controlling aspects of the university as a whole, is quite common today. Perhaps these athletes should be paid, and not really carrying the university logo.
All this talk of Greek tragedy. Icarus was foolish in using the wings fashioned by his father to fly too high. Even the most famous case of "hubris", that of Oedipus, involved a person basically unknowing of his "fatal flaw". That's what makes Greek Tragedy so moving and great. Tawdry cases like PSU/Paterno, should not be mentioned in the same breath. If indeed JP was a serious student of Greek Tragedy, he had learned nothing from his reading of Homer /Aeschylus/Sophocles/Euripides.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby 26mi235 » Thu Jul 26, 2012 3:28 pm

I thought of Penn State in terms of how good their industrial engineering school is or how strong their mineral economics program is.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Conor Dary » Tue Aug 21, 2012 10:45 am

From a review in today's NYTimes. Paterno loses it all for a guy he didn't even care much for.

    The book’s best chapter, and the one many people will turn to first, is titled simply “Sandusky.” Paterno hired Mr. Sandusky as a full-time assistant coach in 1969, when Mr. Sandusky was 25, and made him Penn State’s defensive coordinator eight years later. The two men disliked each other almost from the start, Mr. Posnanski reports, and he adds new detail about this uneasy relationship. Paterno thought Mr. Sandusky was a glory hound who wanted his job. Their styles were different. Paterno liked a drink now and then. Mr. Sandusky was a teetotaler.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/21/books ... .html?_r=1
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Marlow » Tue Aug 21, 2012 11:22 am

Conor Dary wrote:1. Paterno hired Mr. Sandusky as a full-time assistant coach
2. [Paterno] made him Penn State’s defensive coordinator
3. The two men disliked each other almost from the start
4. Paterno thought Mr. Sandusky was a glory hound who wanted his job.
5. Their styles were different.

What's wrong with this picture? :shock:
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby jeremyp » Tue Aug 21, 2012 12:38 pm

Marlow wrote:
Conor Dary wrote:1. Paterno hired Mr. Sandusky as a full-time assistant coach
2. [Paterno] made him Penn State’s defensive coordinator
3. The two men disliked each other almost from the start
4. Paterno thought Mr. Sandusky was a glory hound who wanted his job.
5. Their styles were different.

What's wrong with this picture? :shock:


Eisenhower and Patton? And we all know what happened to Patton. At least us older guys do.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby lonewolf » Tue Aug 21, 2012 12:44 pm

I dunno but it suggests to me that Paterno was complicit in the cover up to protect Penn State, not to protect Sandusky.
No difference, no distinction, no excuse.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Conor Dary » Tue Aug 21, 2012 12:48 pm

lonewolf wrote:I dunno but it suggests to me that Paterno was complicit in the cover up to protect Penn State, not to protect Sandusky.
No difference, no distinction, no excuse.


That is also my take. Sandusky was probably good at his job, which in the end was all P. cared about.
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