Penn State/State Pen [split]


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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Pego » Thu Jul 19, 2012 5:00 am

jazzcyclist wrote:
Daisy wrote:
Conor Dary wrote:Hey, I like that idea.

One potential problem. Would the players still work for free?

Another consequence is that with the exception of division I men's basketball, it would mark the end of big-time college sports as we know, including our beloved track and field.


Exactly. Heresy of Daisy and Conor Dary calls for a burning at stake. Nothing less would suffice.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby jazzcyclist » Thu Jul 19, 2012 5:38 am

Bruce Kritzler wrote:It's called "Lack of Institutional control" (the biggest ncaa violation)

I think you need to read up on what LOIC actually means.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Daisy » Thu Jul 19, 2012 7:29 am

Pego wrote:Heresy of Daisy and Conor calls for a burning at stake. Nothing less would suffice.

We'd only lose a few track programs :twisted:

Don't the europeans manage fine without university level sports? Or do their clubs fill the gap? Sometimes I wonder whether the clubs are actually healthier as there is more involvement at all ages rather than just packing it in after university.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby odelltrclan » Fri Jul 20, 2012 7:00 am

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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Conor Dary » Fri Jul 20, 2012 8:02 am

odelltrclan wrote:http://chronicle.com/article/Big-Ten-Conference-Could/132983/#top

Hmmm! Interesting.


Yes, if true, I think the Big Ten is telling Penn State they do some serious action.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby dukehjsteve » Fri Jul 20, 2012 1:26 pm

I just heard on the radio that PSU is taking down Paterno's statue.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Conor Dary » Fri Jul 20, 2012 5:36 pm

dukehjsteve wrote:I just heard on the radio that PSU is taking down Paterno's statue.


Perhaps the threat of being kicked out of the Big Ten is having an effect.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Bruce Kritzler » Sat Jul 21, 2012 1:40 pm

jazzcyclist wrote:
Bruce Kritzler wrote:It's called "Lack of Institutional control" (the biggest ncaa violation)

I think you need to read up on what LOIC actually means.


It means whatever the NCAA Infraction Committee wants it to mean. (big Catch-All)
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby TN1965 » Sat Jul 21, 2012 2:40 pm

I also have to wonder whether PSU did not gain any competitive advantage by covering up the crime. If it had been exposed in 1998, could they have recruited the players they did since then? How is that interpreted?
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby jazzcyclist » Sat Jul 21, 2012 3:40 pm

TN1965 wrote:I also have to wonder whether PSU did not gain any competitive advantage by covering up the crime. If it had been exposed in 1998, could they have recruited the players they did since then? How is that interpreted?

Now that's an Orwellian interpretation competitive advantage. :roll:
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby jazzcyclist » Sat Jul 21, 2012 3:48 pm

Bruce Kritzler wrote:It means whatever the NCAA Infraction Committee wants it to mean. (big Catch-All)


Actually it has to do with people acting on behalf of the athletic department without any oversight. The vast majority of the time it involves rogue boosters, but it can involve university employees who are acting without the consent of a coach and/or athletic director. Ironiocally, SMU didn't have a LOIC situation because all the decsions involving money and gifts to player were discussed and approved at meetings which included the athletic director, the President, the board of dorectors and the Governor.
:shock:
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Conor Dary » Sat Jul 21, 2012 3:49 pm

jazzcyclist wrote:
TN1965 wrote:I also have to wonder whether PSU did not gain any competitive advantage by covering up the crime. If it had been exposed in 1998, could they have recruited the players they did since then? How is that interpreted?

Now that's an Orwellian interpretation competitive advantage. :roll:


Not at all. :roll:
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby jazzcyclist » Sat Jul 21, 2012 3:59 pm

Conor Dary wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote:
TN1965 wrote:I also have to wonder whether PSU did not gain any competitive advantage by covering up the crime. If it had been exposed in 1998, could they have recruited the players they did since then? How is that interpreted?

Now that's an Orwellian interpretation competitive advantage. :roll:


Not at all. :roll:

CD, you've already proven that you're too obtuse to understand the underlying difference between Penn State and SMU. So I suggest that we follow gh's request to follow rule #14, since there won't be any constructive debate between you and I on this topic.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Conor Dary » Sat Jul 21, 2012 4:07 pm

jazzcyclist wrote:
Conor Dary wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote:
TN1965 wrote:I also have to wonder whether PSU did not gain any competitive advantage by covering up the crime. If it had been exposed in 1998, could they have recruited the players they did since then? How is that interpreted?

Now that's an Orwellian interpretation competitive advantage. :roll:


Not at all. :roll:

CD, you've already proven that you're too obtuse to understand the underlying difference between Penn State and SMU.


It is over jazz. :roll:
Last edited by Conor Dary on Sat Jul 21, 2012 4:36 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby TrakFan » Sat Jul 21, 2012 4:31 pm

Conor Dary wrote:Jazz, I know you are a decent fellow and all, and I mean no offense...


jazzcyclist wrote:
I don't take anything you've said personally, so the qualifiers aren't necessary as long as you attack my message and not me


Fellas, what happened to the "luuuuuv" :lol:
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Conor Dary » Sat Jul 21, 2012 4:36 pm

TrakFan wrote:
Conor Dary wrote:Jazz, I know you are a decent fellow and all, and I mean no offense...


jazzcyclist wrote:
I don't take anything you've said personally, so the qualifiers aren't necessary as long as you attack my message and not me


Fellas, what happened to the "luuuuuv" :lol:


It is over.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Conor Dary » Sun Jul 22, 2012 6:12 am

Penn State Removes Paterno Statue.

http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Conor Dary » Sun Jul 22, 2012 6:42 am

Well, well, it looks like the NCAA is going to do something.

    The NCAA will announce "corrective and punitive measures" for Penn State on Monday morning, it said in a statement, with CBS News reporting the penalties to be "unprecedented," affecting the football program and the school.

    NCAA president Mark Emmert will reveal the sanctions Monday at 9 a.m. ET in Indianapolis at the organization's headquarters along with Ed Ray, the chairman of the NCAA's executive committee and Oregon State's president, the news release said.

http://espn.go.com/college-football/sto ... tany-lions
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Marlow » Sun Jul 22, 2012 9:06 am

The crawl on the British Open coverage says it involves loss of bowl appearances and scholarships.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Conor Dary » Sun Jul 22, 2012 9:07 am

Marlow wrote:The crawl on the British Open coverage says it involves loss of bowl appearances and scholarships.


And take away their lollipops. Wow, that is really tough. Unprecedented! On par with the Cal Tech sanctions. :roll:
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby 26mi235 » Sun Jul 22, 2012 1:43 pm

Conor Dary wrote:
Marlow wrote:The crawl on the British Open coverage says it involves loss of bowl appearances and scholarships.


And take away their lollipops. Wow, that is really tough. Unprecedented! On par with the Cal Tech sanctions. :roll:


It is a matter of degree, some comments are that the death penalty would be preferred.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby DrJay » Sun Jul 22, 2012 8:42 pm

Conor Dary wrote:Penn State Removes Paterno Statue.

http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/


Think they'll put it up for sale on EBay?
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Conor Dary » Mon Jul 23, 2012 6:13 am

Not the death penalty, but pretty brutal. Doubtful any players will leave this year, but from now on the only players they will be able to get will be walk-ons. The team will suck for about 10 years, if not longer.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Conor Dary » Mon Jul 23, 2012 6:17 am

DrJay wrote:
Conor Dary wrote:Penn State Removes Paterno Statue.

http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/


Think they'll put it up for sale on EBay?


Doubtful, but the next best thing.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/JOE-PATERNO-STA ... 3379376cf2
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Marlow » Mon Jul 23, 2012 6:20 am

banned from all post-season play and bowl games for four years

reducing the program's number of scholarships from 25 to 15 per year for four years

fining the program $60 million.

vacated all wins between 1998 and 2011. (wow!)

on probation for five years

Current Penn State players will immediately be allowed to transfer without sitting out a year
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby preston » Mon Jul 23, 2012 6:30 am

http://espn.go.com/college-football/sto ... ating-1998

The NCAA has hit Penn State with a $60 million sanction, a four-year football postseason ban and a vacation of all wins dating to 1998, the organization said Monday morning.

The career record of Joe Paterno will reflect these vacated records, the NCAA said.

Penn State must also reduce 10 initial and 20 total scholarships each year for a four-year period.

They should have shut down the athletic department and fucked every other sport at the same time. Aside from this involving a football coach, not a single football student-athlete was involved. This is crazy. Vacating wins! Reducing scholarships! Paterno didn't win all those games by himself, dedicated kids did! This implies that THEY did something wrong. We're punishing kids when it doesn't involve kids. This is a horrible precedent!
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby preston » Mon Jul 23, 2012 6:46 am

http://espn.go.com/college-football/sto ... ating-1998

...The NCAA ordered Penn State to pay the penalty funds into an endowment for "external programs preventing child sexual abuse or assisting victims and may not be used to fund such programs at the university."

How is this within the authority of the NCAA?

"This is unique and this kind of power has never been tested or tried," the former chair said. "It's unprecedented to have this extensive power. This has nothing to do with the purpose of the infractions process. Nevertheless, somehow (the NCAA president and executive board) have taken it on themselves to be a commissioner and to penalize a school for improper conduct."

The chair said that the NCAA was dealing with a case that is outside the traditional rules or violations. He said this case does not fall within the basic fundamental purpose of NCAA regulations.

"The purpose of the NCAA is to keep a level playing field among schools and to make sure they use proper methods through scholarships and etcetera," the chair said. "This is not a case that would normally go through the process. It has nothing to do with a level playing field. It has nothing to do with whether Penn State gets advantages over other schools in recruiting or in the number of coaches or things that we normally deal with."

The NCAA, the chair said, had never gotten involved in punishing schools for criminal behavior.

"The criminal courts are perfectly capable of handling these situations," the former chair said. "This is a new phase and a new thing. They are getting into bad behavior that are somehow connected to those who work in the athletic department.

"This is an important precedent. And it should be taken with extreme care."
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby jazzcyclist » Mon Jul 23, 2012 7:28 am

preston wrote:How is this within the authority of the NCAA?

It seems as though the NCAA is tacitly admitting that it's not within their authority but they're going to do ut anyway. Recently, they dropped the hammer on division III Cal Tech and a couple years ago they turned a blind eye to Auburn and Cam Newton in a situation in which there was a clear-cut violation of its bylaws, so this incident only serves to further discredit it.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby lonewolf » Mon Jul 23, 2012 7:33 am

The NCAA is consistent only in its inconsistency...and vice versa.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Conor Dary » Mon Jul 23, 2012 7:55 am

jazzcyclist wrote: , so this incident only serves to further discredit it.


With a new president bringing the hammer down on Penn State it shows the exact opposite. And remember PSU agreed to these sanctions.

    That the N.C.A.A. acted this quickly and decisively did not come as a particular surprise to the former Big 12 commissioner Dan Beebe, a former N.C.A.A. investigator. Beebe said that the N.C.A.A. has struggled to appear relevant recently while dealing with some of the major issues surrounding college sports, including high-profile cases of rules violations and conference realignment, and that the organization expressed a sincere interest in being more proactive at a retreat in Indianapolis last year.

    “I certainly think there have been a lot of changes and issues that have arisen that the N.C.A.A. hasn’t been able to get to,” said Beebe, who is a founding partner in BMT Risk Management, a company that advises colleges and professional sports teams on workplace misconduct.

    He added: “I think the N.C.A.A. wasn’t a part of realignment, and the playoff movement did not involve N.C.A.A. staff. I think this is an area, like you said, that’s unprecedented and horrific, and I think there’s a real focus on what the N.C.A.A. can and will do about it.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/24/sport ... ml?_r=1&hp
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby preston » Mon Jul 23, 2012 8:09 am

This is a perfect time for the Big 10, Big 12, Pac 12, SEC and ACC (doubtful as to whether the Big East should be included) to break off and create their own governing body and leave the NCAA to mid-majors, indies and whoever wants to remain.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby jazzcyclist » Mon Jul 23, 2012 8:42 am

preston wrote:This is a perfect time for the Big 10, Big 12, Pac 12, SEC and ACC (doubtful as to whether the Big East should be included) to break off and create their own governing body and leave the NCAA to mid-majors, indies and whoever wants to remain.

Amen! :!:
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby DrJay » Mon Jul 23, 2012 8:53 am

"Ed Ray, the president of Oregon State and the chairman of the N.C.A.A.'s executive committee, said the case, and the sanctions imposed, represented a declaration by university presidents and chancellors that 'this has to stop.' By that he meant a win-at-all-costs mentality with respect to intercollegiate sports.

'We’ve had enough,' he said."

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/24/sport ... =1&_r=1&hp
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby 18.99s » Mon Jul 23, 2012 9:04 am

preston wrote:How is this within the authority of the NCAA?


The NCAA can't really force Penn State to pay. What they can do is kick Penn State out of the NCAA if they don't pay. And kicking out a school for egregious wrongdoing is almost certainly in the authority of the NCAA.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Marlow » Mon Jul 23, 2012 10:10 am

preston wrote:We're punishing kids when it doesn't involve kids. This is a horrible precedent!

The villagers, pitchforks in hand, said 'burn it to the ground'. Had the NCAA not thrown the baby out with the bath (to mix metaphors), the pitchforks would have impaled the NCAA itself. It's kill or be killed. We wanted our pound of flesh (more allusions?!), so the NCAA gave it to us. Blame not the messenger (judge, jury and executioner); blame ourselves.

I have great empathy for all the truly innocent people who will be negatively affected by this sentence, but, on the other hand, the crime was heinous, and heads must roll. Collateral damage is a bitch.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby preston » Mon Jul 23, 2012 10:51 am

it's not just that, Marlow, its the idea that athletes should always be the scapegoats because most people don't believe they belong on a college campus anyway - or that they should be tolerated, begrudgingly. If a University president had found out that a department head fudged study numbers that would lead to a Nobel prize, govt/corp funding, whatever and said nothing I doubt they would eliminate the entire department or even a class. There's a possibility that the offending professor may not even lose his job - even if his professional credibility would be shot.

The athletes are being held to a higher standard than the students. And, if student athletes require a special designation of rules and procedures just pay them and stop the farce.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Marlow » Mon Jul 23, 2012 11:04 am

preston wrote:it's not just that, Marlow, its the idea that athletes should always be the scapegoats because most people don't believe they belong on a college campusanyway - or that they should be tolerated, begrudgingly.

Do you think that's universally true? I have never seen it or sensed it.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Daisy » Mon Jul 23, 2012 11:22 am

Marlow wrote:
preston wrote:it's not just that, Marlow, its the idea that athletes should always be the scapegoats because most people don't believe they belong on a college campusanyway - or that they should be tolerated, begrudgingly.

Do you think that's universally true? I have never seen it or sensed it.

My stance is that they should be paid and not be regarded as full time students when they are actually playing. My main concern is about the academic mission being compromised. One sure fire way to do that is to pretend that the student athletes have time to study. Or worse, create soft courses that they can pass at the same time as being a 'professional' athlete.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby j-a-m » Mon Jul 23, 2012 11:25 am

preston wrote:its the idea that athletes should always be the scapegoats because most people don't believe they belong on a college campus anyway - or that they should be tolerated, begrudgingly.

Just listened to the NCAA president talking about the sanctions; what bothers me is the language about "cultural change". That language seems to imply that student athletes are among those who were at fault, when in reality it were coaches and administrators.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby preston » Mon Jul 23, 2012 12:56 pm

Marlow wrote:
preston wrote:it's not just that, Marlow, its the idea that athletes should always be the scapegoats because most people don't believe they belong on a college campusanyway - or that they should be tolerated, begrudgingly.

Do you think that's universally true? I have never seen it or sensed it.

I absolutely think that's true, especially on the D1 level. I won't go as far as to say it's "universal" but there is [quite] a bit of bias and even some [racial] prejudice that buttresses that viewpoint. Whether it's radio call in, blog comments, TV commentators, layman, whatever there is a belief that athletes -particularly the middle class and low-income athletes that make up the majority of D1 TV school scholarship athletes- are not there on their merits. It's a viewpoint that is virulent on liberal/progressive sites like The Huffington Post (because they hate athletes there) and on "less" liberal/progressive sites like Track and Field News. :wink:
j-a-m wrote:Just listened to the NCAA president talking about the sanctions; what bothers me is the language about "cultural change". That language seems to imply that student athletes are among those who were at fault, when in reality it were coaches and administrators.

AMEN! The easiest way to say we've had enough is to allow any athlete anywhere to transfer for any reason to anywhere. When coaches AND schools realize that the student athletes will have the same rights as students, they will recruit kids who actually want to be at their school. Putting the power of education back in the hands of the students, and wresting it from the administrators (who often times force kids to take those soft courses), is the only thing that can save college athletics.
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