Gun (Lack of) Control


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Re: The Dark Knight Rises

Postby Marlow » Sat Jul 21, 2012 4:42 pm

[NOT on the 'gun issue' . . . ]

Pego wrote:Thanks again. Most interesting. I would love to know what was the Greek word translated into English as "God."

Aristotle's idea of God was actually 'Prime Mover', which has a little, but not a lot, in common with the Christian concept of God.

http://www.scandalon.co.uk/philosophy/aristotle_prime_mover.htm wrote:Aristotle believed that all movement depends on there being a mover. Aristotle argued that behind every movement there must be a chain of events that brought about the movement that we see taking place. Aristotle argued that this chain of events must lead back to something which moves but is itself unmoved. This is referred to as the Prime Mover. In Aristotle’s view change is eternal. There cannot have been a first change, because something would have to have happened just before that change which set it off, and this itself would have been a change, and so on.
In his book Metaphysics (literally after physics), Aristotle calls this source of all movement the Prime Mover. The Prime Mover to Aristotle is the first of all substances, the necessary first sources of movement which is itself unmoved. It is a being with everlasting life, and in Metaphysics Aristotle also calls this being ‘God’.

Aristotle comes to the conclusion that God knows only himself; so he does not know this physical world that we inhabit, he does not have a plan for us, and he is not affected by us.
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Re: The Dark Knight Rises

Postby Pego » Sat Jul 21, 2012 4:58 pm

All right Marlow, you seem to know a lot more about this subject then I do, so teach me more. Would "deos" (god) be equivalent to Zeus? After all, Zeus was not an only god, he was not an omnipotent god and he was not even the Creator god. Who then would Aristotle consider as this Prime Mover?
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Re: The Dark Knight Rises

Postby Vince » Sat Jul 21, 2012 5:00 pm

JRM wrote:
Vince wrote:To all the gun control people, would you have preferred that he spray all the patrons with an oily gasoline mixture and then throw a match and lock the fire escapes on his way out? It's not about the method, ...


Would you mind citing all the instances of mass murder by dousing of gasoline? I'm sure there must be a number of them in the countries where guns aren't as accessible, because they still have the crazy people....

In the Sudan and the Congo they used machetes, in Japan they used poison gas, in the US they've used a fertilizer/diesel mixture, obviously deranged minds can use whatever is readily available. I bet you could even think of some commonly used product that could cause great harm, which was obviously the point.
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Re: The Dark Knight Rises

Postby JRM » Sat Jul 21, 2012 5:18 pm

Vince wrote:In the Sudan and the Congo they used machetes,


Carried out by a single person?

in Japan they used poison gas, in the US they've used a fertilizer/diesel mixture, obviously deranged minds can use whatever is readily available.


Those are *single* instances, and in certain cases a severe clamp-down on the product in question *was* enacted (i.e. purchasing fertilizer in the US) so it could NOT be used in the same way again.

I bet you could even think of some commonly used product that could cause great harm, which was obviously the point.


This is nonsense. These guys aren't looking for creative ways to kill people. They're looking for the fastest and least interactive way to do it. And their choice of weapon is always the same.
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Re: The Dark Knight Rises

Postby Marlow » Sat Jul 21, 2012 5:28 pm

Pego wrote:All right Marlow, you seem to know a lot more about this subject then I do, so teach me more. Would "deos" (god) be equivalent to Zeus? After all, Zeus was not an only god, he was not an omnipotent god and he was not even the Creator god. Who then would Aristotle consider as this Prime Mover?

Ari's Prime Mover was not Zeus or any of the Greek gods. It was not a who or a thing. It was wholly 'thought' ('spirit' is acceptable in this context). It was the irresistible (which is what caused other things to 'move') beauty of the universe that kept everything in harmony and balance. It was eternal and perfect, affecting all things, but affected by none.
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Re: The Dark Knight Rises

Postby kuha » Sat Jul 21, 2012 5:30 pm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aristotelian_view_of_God

Pego: This is such a popular subject that there's a Wiki entry for it--and, I'm sure, about 175 major books!
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Re: The Dark Knight Rises

Postby jazzcyclist » Sat Jul 21, 2012 5:35 pm

JRM wrote:
Vince wrote:I bet you could even think of some commonly used product that could cause great harm, which was obviously the point.


This is nonsense. These guys aren't looking for creative ways to kill people. They're looking for the fastest and least interactive way to do it. And their choice of weapon is always the same.

Come on man. You don't think the Colorado shooter was creative and willing to spend a lot of time planning his massacre? Are you implying that he booby-trapped his apartment on a whim? And what about Timothy McVeigh, he wasn't diligent in his planning? If you consider these people impulsive, I'd like to hear who you consider deliberate.
Last edited by jazzcyclist on Sat Jul 21, 2012 6:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Dark Knight Rises

Postby Pego » Sat Jul 21, 2012 5:41 pm

Marlow wrote:
Pego wrote:All right Marlow, you seem to know a lot more about this subject then I do, so teach me more. Would "deos" (god) be equivalent to Zeus? After all, Zeus was not an only god, he was not an omnipotent god and he was not even the Creator god. Who then would Aristotle consider as this Prime Mover?

Ari's Prime Mover was not Zeus or any of the Greek gods. It was not a who or a thing. It was wholly 'thought' ('spirit' is acceptable in this context). It was the irresistible (which is what caused other things to 'move') beauty of the universe that kept everything in harmony and balance. It was eternal and perfect, affecting all things, but affected by none.


Ain't metaphysics grand? An intellectually elegant concept without any empirical support and if you have standing of authority, you attract wide following for ages to come.
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Re: The Dark Knight Rises

Postby Vince » Sat Jul 21, 2012 6:17 pm

JRM wrote:
Vince wrote:

I bet you could even think of some commonly used product that could cause great harm, which was obviously the point.


This is nonsense. These guys aren't looking for creative ways to kill people. They're looking for the fastest and least interactive way to do it. And their choice of weapon is always the same.

Not always. The point is that, if guns somehow all disappear in the US under your mandate, people will find other means in a culture of violence to commit mass murder.
You can ban fertilizer too, but are you going to ban nitrogen also, which was what the fertilizer was used for to make the Oklahoma bomb.
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Re: The Dark Knight Rises

Postby Daisy » Sat Jul 21, 2012 6:26 pm

Vince wrote:if guns somehow all disappear in the US under your mandate

Are all guns semi or fully automatic? Isn't the idea to control access to specific kinds of guns, especially those designed to maim or kill a massive number of people in a very short time?
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Re: The Dark Knight Rises

Postby JRM » Sat Jul 21, 2012 6:32 pm

jazzcyclist wrote:Come on man. You don't think the Colorado shooter was creative and willing to spend a lot of time planning his massacre?


I didn't mean to imply some of these murders weren't creative. I simply said that, at the end of the day, they chose the method that will accomplish the most for least.

McVeigh, he wasn't diligent in his planning?


McVeigh used a method that, once executed, was quickly regulated so that it would become very difficult to use for that purpose again.

Vince wrote:if guns somehow all disappear in the US under your mandate,


I don't recall advocating for the banning of guns. But severe controls on their availability and use would be a huge step.

You can ban fertilizer too,


Stop with the hyperbole. No one has banned fertilizer. See my statement above.
Last edited by JRM on Sat Jul 21, 2012 6:52 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: The Dark Knight Rises

Postby kuha » Sat Jul 21, 2012 6:36 pm

Pego wrote:Ain't metaphysics grand? An intellectually elegant concept without any empirical support and if you have standing of authority, you attract wide following for ages to come.


Aristotle was a great empiricist, BUT he was also a philosopher and a rationalist. I think its safe to say that he followed the evidence as far as he could, but then used reason to fill in the gaps and to (try to) establish first causes. The details have changed radically, but science today is still trying to do that. The difference is the modern commitment to testing hypotheses rather than just "thinking them through" and asserting them.
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Re: The Dark Knight Rises

Postby Vince » Sat Jul 21, 2012 6:55 pm

JRM wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote:Come on man. You don't think the Colorado shooter was creative and willing to spend a lot of time planning his massacre?


I didn't mean to imply some of these murders weren't creative. I simply said that, at the end of the day, they chose the method that will accomplish the most for least.

McVeigh, he wasn't diligent in his planning?


McVeigh used a method that, once executed, was quickly regulated so that it would become very difficult to use for that purpose again.

Vince wrote:if guns somehow all disappear in the US under your mandate,


I don't recall advocating for the banning of guns. But severe controls on their availability and use would be a huge step.

You can ban fertilizer too,


Stop with the hyperbole. No one has banned fertilizer. See my statement above.


Stop avoiding the point that common items can cause mass murder even if you banned all guns.
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Re: The Dark Knight Rises

Postby Marlow » Sat Jul 21, 2012 6:58 pm

kuha wrote:
Pego wrote:Ain't metaphysics grand? An intellectually elegant concept without any empirical support and if you have standing of authority, you attract wide following for ages to come.

Aristotle was a great empiricist, BUT he was also a philosopher and a rationalist. I think its safe to say that he followed the evidence as far as he could, but then used reason to fill in the gaps and to (try to) establish first causes. The details have changed radically, but science today is still trying to do that. The difference is the modern commitment to testing hypotheses rather than just "thinking them through" and asserting them.

What I find amazing is that Ari tried to deduce the answer with pure logic WITHOUT resorting to 'faith' of any kind. Ya gotta admire that!
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Re: The Dark Knight Rises

Postby jazzcyclist » Sat Jul 21, 2012 7:06 pm

Daisy wrote:
Vince wrote:if guns somehow all disappear in the US under your mandate

Are all guns semi or fully automatic? Isn't the idea to control access to specific kinds of guns, especially those designed to maim or kill a massive number of people in a very short time?

The ones that you can buy quickly in the non-restrictive states are semi-automatic weapons. As I said earlier, it's not easy to buy a fully-automatic weapon anywhere in the U.S. in 2012.
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Re: The Dark Knight Rises

Postby jazzcyclist » Sat Jul 21, 2012 7:21 pm

JRM wrote:I didn't mean to imply some of these murders weren't creative. I simply said that, at the end of the day, they chose the method that will accomplish the most for least.

Well, I never said that creativity was the endgame. It was just the means to the end. Why would they have schemes that were more elaborate than what was necessary to accomplish their goals?

JRM wrote:McVeigh used a method that, once executed, was quickly regulated so that it would become very difficult to use for that purpose again.

Neither will anyone ever be able to hijack planes with box cutters and use the planes as missiles? Why would they care about this as long as their plan succeeded?
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Re: The Dark Knight Rises

Postby Vince » Sat Jul 21, 2012 8:14 pm

A little perspective, number of murders in the US in 2010 approx. 16000. and 60% to 70% caused by firearms. Deaths by Motor Vehicles in 2010 were approx 33000 in the US..... suicides in the US in 2009 were approx. 37000.

Finding accurate and current info is tough to do. Numbers vary widely.
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Re: The Dark Knight Rises

Postby jhc68 » Sat Jul 21, 2012 9:50 pm

As already noted, we all have our perspectives and none of us is likely to change our views because of what someone posts here. But I'll add that In my personal universe the cliche that Guns Don't Kill People, People KIll People is silly beyond description.

People who wield firearms (and some small percentage of people in every society are homicidal maniacs) are so much more efficient at murder and can kill so quickly and maim at such distance that it seems ludicrous to say that killers will find some other way to do their work.

In my longish and relatively dull life I have been in a few conflicts. In my youth I traded punches with other morons and came out both better and worse than the other guy. And I've been threatened at very close range by an idiot with a knife. In all those cases I got adrenalinized but I always figured (perhaps foolishly) that I had reasonable chance to defend myself or at least to run away!

But twice I have had handguns pointed at me - once in a hold-up and once in a nasty late night confusion with cops in Southeast Asia - and both times I was freaking terrified because some ***hole only had to move his finger a centimeter or so to end my life.

Here's the difference to me: on one occasion when I was teaching high school several of my colleagues and I saw a kid coming up behind another teacher with a knife in hand and we all immediately began yelling and running toward the aggressor. He ran away. If he had been carrying a gun instead of a knife we might have all been shot.

I also have seen enough of life to absolutely reject the notion that we'd all be safer if everyone had guns. Even more bizarre is the ideology that we need weapons to fight our own government... that, to me, is adolescent fantasy. If it came to that the armed forces would either mutiny and, God help us all, the government would fall, or the rebels would be decimated by weaponry so sophisticated and deadly that it is literally beyond the comprehension of most Americans.
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Re: The Dark Knight Rises

Postby mump boy » Sun Jul 22, 2012 3:32 am

jazzcyclist wrote:
Marlow wrote:
no one—really no one—anywhere on the political spectrum has the courage to speak out about the madness of unleashed guns and what they do to American life. . . . we know how he did it. Those who fight for the right of every madman and every criminal to have as many people-killing weapons as they want share moral responsibility for what happened last night—as they will when it happens again. And it will happen again.

Exactly how I feel. One of the best friends of my life was gunned done by a lunatic with an AK-47 that he bought over the counter in the 30 minutes it took for him to fill out the paperwork. Coward that he was, there's no way he had the guts to do it with anything except a gun that he could easily buy.

I feel for your loss, but I couldn't disagree more with your conclusion. I don't know if your friend was the victim of a random shooter or someone he knew personally, but there are no gun laws that can stop a determined killer. When the government takes away our freedoms (eg. gun control, Patriot Act, NDAA, etc), we lose in the long run.


we have VERY strict gun laws in uk we also have VERY low murder rate 550 in a year

http://www.channel4.com/news/uk-murder- ... t-30-years

and a tiny amount of them are with guns (42 in 2008)

compared to 13,000 in USA of which 9000 !! were with guns

http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog ... e-us-state
do the math

i know which 'freedom' i'd prefer and who's 'losing out in the long run'
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Re: The Dark Knight Rises

Postby Pego » Sun Jul 22, 2012 4:02 am

jhc68 wrote:I also have seen enough of life to absolutely reject the notion that we'd all be safer if everyone had guns. Even more bizarre is the ideology that we need weapons to fight our own government... that, to me, is adolescent fantasy. If it came to that the armed forces would either mutiny and, God help us all, the government would fall.


We would have Somalia.
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Re: The Dark Knight Rises

Postby jazzcyclist » Sun Jul 22, 2012 4:03 am

mump boy wrote:i know which 'freedom' i'd prefer and who's 'losing out in the long run'


The U.K. and most other European countries also have hate speech laws which means that people can and have gone to prison for saying the wrong thing. And to be clear, I'm not talking about inciting riots, threatening to kill someone or yelling fire in a crowded theater because those acts are all crimes in the U.S.

A truly free country would have the U.S.'s free speech rights and religious freedoms, the southern U.S.'s gun rights, Holland's drug and prostitiution laws, Denmark's pornography laws and Germany's speed limit.
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Re: The Dark Knight Rises

Postby mump boy » Sun Jul 22, 2012 4:18 am

jazzcyclist wrote:
mump boy wrote:i know which 'freedom' i'd prefer and who's 'losing out in the long run'


The U.K. and most other European countries also have hate speech laws which means that people can and have gone to prison for saying the wrong thing. And to be clear, I'm not talking about inciting riots, threatening to kill someone or yelling fire in a crowded theater because those acts are all crimes in the U.S.

A truly free country would have the U.S.'s free speech rights and religious freedoms, the southern U.S.'s gun rights, Holland's drug and prostitiution laws, Denmark's pornography laws and Germany's speed limit.


this has NOTHING to do with the point i was making !! which you have conveniently avoided commenting on
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Re: The Dark Knight Rises

Postby jazzcyclist » Sun Jul 22, 2012 4:30 am

Pego wrote:
jhc68 wrote:I also have seen enough of life to absolutely reject the notion that we'd all be safer if everyone had guns. Even more bizarre is the ideology that we need weapons to fight our own government... that, to me, is adolescent fantasy. If it came to that the armed forces would either mutiny and, God help us all, the government would fall.


We would have Somalia.

I'm sure you're engaging in a little hyperbole, but let's consider the facts. We live in an era in which the U.S. has the strictist gun control laws in our nation's history. The federal governmenmt has gradually chipped away at the Second Amendment with the passage of the the Gun Control Act (1968), the Law Enforcement Officers Protection Act (1986) and the Brady Handgun Violence Prevention Act (1994). So my question to you is why weren't incidents like the Colorado shooting happening 50 years ago, when gun control laws were a lot more lax than they are today?

Some folks think its's because over the last several decades, American pop culture has come to sensationalize, and even romanticize violence in a way that it never did before. Others think that it's because it's become almost impossible to institutionize the mentally deranged without their consent and that nutjobs like the Colorado shooter would have been unable to hurt anyone 50 years ago because the would have already been commited to a mental institution. What's your theory Pego?
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Re: The Dark Knight Rises

Postby jazzcyclist » Sun Jul 22, 2012 4:33 am

mump boy wrote:this has NOTHING to do with the point i was making !! which you have conveniently avoided commenting on

I addressed the gun issue along with many other freedoms. There's no doubt that the U.S. is freer than the U.K. when it comes to guns and I pray that we never adopt your gun control laws.
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Re: The Dark Knight Rises

Postby mump boy » Sun Jul 22, 2012 5:18 am

jazzcyclist wrote:
mump boy wrote:this has NOTHING to do with the point i was making !! which you have conveniently avoided commenting on

I addressed the gun issue along with many other freedoms. There's no doubt that the U.S. is freer than the U.K. when it comes to guns and I pray that we never adopt your gun control laws.


The freedom to get shot to death while watching Batman is one i will gladly do without !!
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Re: The Dark Knight Rises

Postby Pego » Sun Jul 22, 2012 5:25 am

jazzcyclist wrote:Some folks think its's because over the last several decades, American pop culture has come to sensationalize, and even romanticize violence in a way that it never did before. Others think that it's because it's become almost impossible to institutionize the mentally deranged without their consent and that nutjobs like the Colorado shooter would have been unable to hurt anyone 50 years ago because the would have already been commited to a mental institution. What's your theory Pego?


I simply do not know. I do not buy any of the above. Nutjobs have been around forever, they don't need to be "desensitized". I hate violence in pop culture, but do not see the link to mass murders.

I hated what we did in the 70s emptying asylums, but neither Tucson, nor Aurora killers would have been institutionalized prior to committing their atrocities even then from what I know.

I simply do not know, just as I have not been able to find a common denominator to suicide bombers either.
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Re: The Dark Knight Rises

Postby jazzcyclist » Sun Jul 22, 2012 5:30 am

mump boy wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote:
mump boy wrote:this has NOTHING to do with the point i was making !! which you have conveniently avoided commenting on

I addressed the gun issue along with many other freedoms. There's no doubt that the U.S. is freer than the U.K. when it comes to guns and I pray that we never adopt your gun control laws.


The freedom to get shot to death while watching Batman is one i will gladly do without !!

Anyone can play the semantics game. For example, in the U.K. you are free to be defenseless victims without the right to defend yourself. You see how easy that is. For every Colorado nutjob we have in the U.S., we also have heroes like this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mm9o3vhKoF8
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Re: The Dark Knight Rises

Postby kuha » Sun Jul 22, 2012 5:39 am

jhc68 wrote:I also have seen enough of life to absolutely reject the notion that we'd all be safer if everyone had guns. Even more bizarre is the ideology that we need weapons to fight our own government... that, to me, is adolescent fantasy.


You are exactly, precisely right: it is an adolescent fantasy. "Pure," high-minded, and very dangerously false.
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Re: The Dark Knight Rises

Postby jazzcyclist » Sun Jul 22, 2012 5:45 am

Pego wrote:I simply do not know, just as I have not been able to find a common denominator to suicide bombers either.

Suicide bombers are pretty easy to understand IMO. They're really just politically-motivated perpetrators of violence, also know as terrorists, and as we both know that phenomenon has existed for centuries. I think the thing that Westerners can't understand is why someone would give their lives for a political cause. What difference does it make whether the IRA member detonates the car bomb by remote control and whether the Hamas member detonates the car bomb with him in it? I'm pretty sure it makes no difference to the victims. Dead is dead.
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Re: The Dark Knight Rises

Postby Flumpy » Sun Jul 22, 2012 5:48 am

Conor Dary wrote:
Vince wrote:Look up mass killings in Norway, Australia, Great Britain, Finland, Germany, Russia, Japan etc......it's not just a US problem and not all of them used guns.


The saddest of all...why don't you read my earlier post, which looks at just that. Yes, there have been massacres in other countries. I was in England when the school shooting at Dunblane, Scotland happened in 1996. But the difference, as noted, is they did something about them.


"In the United Kingdom in 2009 there were 0.07 recorded intentional homicides committed with a firearm per 100,000 inhabitants; for comparison, the figure for the United States was 3.0, about 40 times higher"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politi ... ed_Kingdom

The reason we don't have lots of madmen shooting people in the UK is because we can't get hold of guns. It really is that simple.

We are not being deprived of any 'freedom' there is just no good reason for members of the general public to own guns of any kind.
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Re: The Dark Knight Rises

Postby jazzcyclist » Sun Jul 22, 2012 5:58 am

Flumpy wrote:The reason we don't have lots of madmen shooting people in the UK is because we can't get hold of guns. It really is that simple.

This is an important fact that can't be overlooked. Even you seem to be implying that British criminals would have no problem using guns if they could get their hands on them. The problem is that in the U.S., there are already so many guns in circulation, that getting them off the street would be like trying to put tootpaste back in the tube. Furthermore, I've discussed with friends and co-workers what they would do with their guns if the Second Amendment was repealed and the government ordered them to turn in their guns, and not a single person said they would turn them in.
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Re: The Dark Knight Rises

Postby Flumpy » Sun Jul 22, 2012 6:07 am

jazzcyclist wrote:
mump boy wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote:
mump boy wrote:this has NOTHING to do with the point i was making !! which you have conveniently avoided commenting on

I addressed the gun issue along with many other freedoms. There's no doubt that the U.S. is freer than the U.K. when it comes to guns and I pray that we never adopt your gun control laws.


The freedom to get shot to death while watching Batman is one i will gladly do without !!

Anyone can play the semantics game. For example, in the U.K. you are free to be defenseless victims without the right to defend yourself. You see how easy that is. For every Colorado nutjob we have in the U.S., we also have heroes like this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mm9o3vhKoF8


We don't need 'heroes' like that because we don't have people robbing places with guns on a daily basis.

In the UK he'd be in prison and rightfully so.

If people don't have guns, then they don't need guns to protect themselves against people with guns :?

Why is that so difficult to understand?
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Re: The Dark Knight Rises

Postby gh » Sun Jul 22, 2012 6:17 am

jazzcyclist wrote:
Flumpy wrote:The reason we don't have lots of madmen shooting people in the UK is because we can't get hold of guns. It really is that simple.

This is an important fact that can't be overlooked. Even you seem to be implying that British criminals would have no problem using guns if they could get their hands on them. The problem is that in the U.S., there are already so many guns in circulation, that getting them off the street would be like trying to put tootpaste back in the tube. Furthermore, I've discussed with friends and co-workers what they would do with their guns if the Second Amendment was repealed and the government ordered them to turn in their guns, and not a single person said they would turn them in.


I would turn in my handguns.
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Re: The Dark Knight Rises

Postby jazzcyclist » Sun Jul 22, 2012 6:19 am

Flumpy wrote:If people don't have guns, then they don't need guns to protect themselves against people with guns :?

Why is that so difficult to understand?

Why is it so hard for you to understand that with hundreds of millions of guns already circulation, there's no practical way to create a gun-free environment in the U.S.?
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Re: The Dark Knight Rises

Postby jazzcyclist » Sun Jul 22, 2012 6:21 am

gh wrote:I would turn in my handguns.

I wouldn't. By the way, would you turn in your long guns too, or do you not have any?

Edit: Joe Horn used a shotgun for his heroic act. Here's the audio from his 911 call:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LLtKCC7z0yc
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Re: The Dark Knight Rises

Postby Vince » Sun Jul 22, 2012 6:51 am

Flumpy wrote:


"In the United Kingdom in 2009 there were 0.07 recorded intentional homicides committed with a firearm per 100,000 inhabitants; for comparison, the figure for the United States was 3.0, about 40 times higher"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politi ... ed_Kingdom

The reason we don't have lots of madmen shooting people in the UK is because we can't get hold of guns. It really is that simple.

We are not being deprived of any 'freedom' there is just no good reason for members of the general public to own guns of any kind.


Actually the murder rate is going down in the U.S. while the gun ownership rate is going up. It's been trending that way for years.
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Re: The Dark Knight Rises

Postby gh » Sun Jul 22, 2012 7:43 am

jazzcyclist wrote:
gh wrote:I would turn in my handguns.

I wouldn't. By the way, would you turn in your long guns too, or do you not have any?

Edit: Joe Horn used a shotgun for his heroic act. Here's the audio from his 911 call:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LLtKCC7z0yc



3
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Re: The Dark Knight Rises

Postby jazzcyclist » Sun Jul 22, 2012 7:49 am

So between just the two of us, we have over a dozen guns, and we aren't what most Americans would consider gun nuts. When you consider that there are over 300 million people in the nation, it's easy to see how difficult and problematic it would be to take the guns out of circulation.
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Re: The Dark Knight Rises

Postby Conor Dary » Sun Jul 22, 2012 8:14 am

No one is talking about confiscating 'all' guns. Or even handguns.

The problem are these guns that hold 30 or more rounds. Which no one needs.

But nothing is going happen....
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Re: The Dark Knight Rises

Postby gh » Sun Jul 22, 2012 8:15 am

the latest wrinkle (unless somebody mentioned it higher up and I missed it): he had a 100-round drum magazine but it jammed early. Imagine the death toll if he had been able to squeeze off that many rounds.
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