Penn State/State Pen [split]

[jazzcyclist]

Jazz, a 80% cut in salary? A person who made $100K per year (say) , is reduced to $20K, and would have to be really in a panic to accept such a pay cut.

http://leanforward.msnbc.msn.com/_news/ ... w-template

[Conor Dary]

Jazz, I know you are a decent fellow and all, and I mean no offense, but your thinking somehow strikes me as similar to how Penn State got into this whole mess.

I don't take anything you've said personally, so the qualifiers aren't necessary as long as you attack my message and not me.

Having said this, I have one question for you. Do you believe that the Catholic church has done enough to atone for the sins of its many priests all over the world who committed crimes similar to Sandusky? And just in case you're wondering, I'm Catholic.

I am glad you aren't taking it personally. I appreciate your posts, especially when we disagree, you raise good points, and while I may not change my mind it does give me a different perspective.

As for the money thing, I think you are exaggerating it. Football programs generate a lot of money but they also spend it. Most programs barely break even.

As for the Catholic church, don't get me started there, but since you ask, no.

[Conor Dary]

Jazz, a 80% cut in salary? A person who made $100K per year (say) , is reduced to $20K, and would have to be really in a panic to accept such a pay cut.

Although there may not be a lot of 100K to 20K folk in Scranton, PA the salraies of police officers and firefighters have been cut to minimum wage due to budget woes. Yes, at the moment firefighters in Scranton must run into burning buildings for $7.25 an hour.

http://www.allgov.com/Where_is_the_Mone ... age_120713
"Mayor Chris Doherty of Scranton, Pennsylvania (population: 76,000), is not a popular man with public employee unions, not after slashing the salaries of 398 police, firefighters and other city workers down to minimum wage ($7.25/hr) starting with their paychecks last Friday."

What does this have to do with the football team?

[Conor Dary]

Let me get this straight.
These 18 year olds are motivated by the rape of 10 year old boys to perpetuate the glory of Penn State football?

I suppose if they could imagine, for even a minute, it was their brother, or even themselves, they might sing a different tune. But probably not.

[jazzcyclist]

As for the money thing, I think you are exaggerating it. Football programs generate a lot of money but they also spend it. Most programs barely break even.

Actually most FBS athletic departments barely break even or lose money because after it pays the bills of all the other sports, there's no money left over. However, football programs, like Penn State, make way, way more money than they spend. FYI, in 2010 Penn State football brought in $70,208,584.00 and only spent $19,780,939.00, which means it made a profit of $50,427,645.00.

[TrakFan]

What does this have to do with the football team?

It has to due with the STATEMENT within this football thread concerning INDIVIDUALS who "would really have to be in a panic to accept an 80% pay cut" I simply provided an example of where such cuts have actually occurred

[IanS_Liv]

Let me get this straight.
These 18 year olds are motivated by the rape of 10 year old boys to perpetuate the glory of Penn State football?

I suppose if they could imagine, for even a minute, it was their brother, or even themselves, they might sing a different tune. But probably not.

This is an example of people not getting the message that a football team is not more important than the minimum 14 children's lives ruined by Sandusky and his enablers.

This kind of thing fuels my probably irrational response to close down at least the football programme for 5 years. There are other universities to go to.

As for the Catholic Church, I would tear down the Vatican to the last brick, sell off all the treasures, painting and gold and give the proceeds to the victims and send every last Pope, Bishop, Cardinal and Priest inside on a barefoot pilgrimage of penance to Jerusalem. No money, no transport.

End of off-topic rant that I hope stays within the rules!

[Conor Dary]

Rick Reilly, tell us what you really think:

I hope Penn State loses civil suits until the walls of the accounting office cave in. I hope that Spanier, Schultz and Curley go to prison for perjury. I hope the NCAA gives Penn State the death penalty it most richly deserves. The worst scandal in college football history deserves the worst penalty the NCAA can give. They gave it to SMU for winning without regard for morals. They should give it to Penn State for the same thing. The only difference is, at Penn State they didn't pay for it with Corvettes. They paid for it with lives.

http://espn.go.com/espn/story/_/id/8162 ... rue-legacy

If the NCAA doesn't do something, they sure are going to look foolish the next time they get upset about free tattoos.

[TrakFan]

http://www.forbes.com/sites/chrissmith/ ... academics/

A good article that touches on how some of the larger revenue generating programs (like football) are key in the survival of the smaller ones (track). The article also mentions how many football programs make significant contributions to academic scholarships, construction projects (non-athletic), and similar programs that benefit all students. The effect on local economies is also addressed:

"Some teams generate more than $5 million per home game for local hotels and restaurants. It’s fair to argue that local businesses are not the responsibility of university athletic departments, but those businesses, which also serve and often employ university students, stand to suffer significant losses if college football were to be banned."

I'm not a college football FANatic....I can't even name two teams that competed in the various bowl games without using Google. I'm certainly not excusing the behavior of those that hurt children, and some have rightfully lost their jobs, reputations, and freedoms as a result of their acts of commission and omission. However, I think those that are calling for Penn State's program to be killed...even for one year...are refusing to consider the students, families, businesses, etc. that will also suffer.

Since all of us are "Track Fans" and want the best for our sport, why didn’t we (USA) show the world how serious we were concerning eradicating drugs by choosing to sit out one championship year? We're getting better, but we've certainly had a "problem” in that area.

[jazzcyclist]

Rick Reilly, tell us what you really think:

I hope Penn State loses civil suits until the walls of the accounting office cave in. I hope that Spanier, Schultz and Curley go to prison for perjury. I hope the NCAA gives Penn State the death penalty it most richly deserves. The worst scandal in college football history deserves the worst penalty the NCAA can give. They gave it to SMU for winning without regard for morals. They should give it to Penn State for the same thing. The only difference is, at Penn State they didn't pay for it with Corvettes. They paid for it with lives.

http://espn.go.com/espn/story/_/id/8162 ... rue-legacy

If the NCAA doesn't do something, they sure are going to look foolish the next time they get upset about free tattoos.

With all due respect, this is totally outside the purview of the NCAA's authority. The NCAA is supposed to police fair play among its member institutions, not delve into matters better left to the criminal justice system. Penn State got no competitive advantage from Sandusky's crimes and the subsequent cover-up. Even with the Baylor men's basketball team scandal, which involved drug dealing, murder and murder cover-up, the NCAA kept its beak out. And when you consider how incompetent the NCAA is at doing the job it's supposed to do - turning a blind eye at Auburn, Cam Newton and Ohio State while going after low hanging fruit like Cal Tech - do you really want them involved in criminal justice matters too?

[jazzcyclist]

I'm not a college football FANatic....I can't even name two teams that competed in the various bowl games without using Google. I'm certainly not excusing the behavior of those that hurt children. I think those that are calling for Penn State's program to be killed...even for one year...are refusing to consider the students, families, businesses, etc. that will also suffer.

Amen! Everyone with even a tangential relationship to Sandusky has lost his/her job and the ones with a direct relationship to him are either dead or on their way to prison. I just don't understand why there seems to be so much bloodlust for collateral damage. Why use a nuclear bomb when a commando unit will do?

[Conor Dary]

With all due respect, this is totally outside the purview of the NCAA's authority. The NCAA is supposed to police fair play among its member institutions, not delve into matters better left to the criminal justice system. Penn State got no competitive advantage from Sandusky's crimes and the subsequent cover-up.

Jazz, your reasoning is getting quite bizarre. They didn't get a competitive advantage? Oh, boy, is that the level of what the NCAA is about?

Suppose Sandusky was John Gacy and murdered his victims, would that be enough?

[Conor Dary]

Since all of us are "Track Fans" and want the best for our sport, why didn’t we (USA) show the world how serious we were concerning eradicating drugs by choosing to sit out one championship year? We're getting better, but we've certainly had a "problem” in that area.

Using steroids, by adults, is on par with rape of 10 year old boys?

Frankly, you guys are getting into weird territory. Concern over the PSU track program?

I think I have had enough of this thread. Time to go take a shower.

[jazzcyclist]

With all due respect, this is totally outside the purview of the NCAA's authority. The NCAA is supposed to police fair play among its member institutions, not delve into matters better left to the criminal justice system. Penn State got no competitive advantage from Sandusky's crimes and the subsequent cover-up.

Jazz, your reasoning is getting quite bizarre. They didn't get a competitive advantage? Oh, boy, is that the level of what the NCAA is about?

Suppose Sandusky was John Gacy and murdered his victims, would that be enough?

CD, with all due respect, you aren't making any sense at all. SMU gave away cars and money to lure resruits. Sandusky's behavior did not help Penn State lure recruits. It's really not that complicated.

[TrakFan]

Using steroids, by adults, is on par with rape of 10 year old boys?

Here we go -- another American making an excuse for it's drug-addled athletes Yes, I'm being overly dramatic -- similar to your response. Although I don't think drug use is on par with rape of any individual (that hardline is for Mump & Flump), I do think you and others are quick to ask for draconian measures when it doesn't affect YOU or YOUR livelihood. Cheating and cover-ups were rampant within T&F, and an appropriate penance would have been for USATF to sit out a Championship year for robbing individuals and countries. Don't you think? You know, similar to what you and others want for Penn State.

Frankly, you guys are getting into weird territory. Concern over the PSU track program?

I'm concerned about those who were raped, AND I am ALSO concerned about every "Alyssa, Jared, Jose, Antwan, Keisha, ect." that has the potential to obtain a college education due to their T & F prowess, but would be unable to do so due to additional funding being lost as a result of the actions of sick men that they have ZERO connections with.

[Pego]

With all due respect, this is totally outside the purview of the NCAA's authority. The NCAA is supposed to police fair play among its member institutions, not delve into matters better left to the criminal justice system. Penn State got no competitive advantage from Sandusky's crimes and the subsequent cover-up.

Jazz, your reasoning is getting quite bizarre. They didn't get a competitive advantage? Oh, boy, is that the level of what the NCAA is about?

Suppose Sandusky was John Gacy and murdered his victims, would that be enough?

All jazzcyclist says is that this entire sordid mess belongs to criminal/civil courts and is not for the NCAA to act on.

[Conor Dary]

All jazzcyclist says is that this entire sordid mess belongs to criminal/civil courts and is not for the NCAA to act on.

I guess so, but that could take years. Meanwhile, the PSU football team will be marching on to victory...and trying to forget everything that happened. Swell.

By the way, the Big Ten Network, to their credit, had an hour show about the scandal last night.

[Conor Dary]

Now back to the 1970's...

http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/index. ... e_men.html

[odelltrclan]

I guess so, but that could take years. Meanwhile, the PSU football team will be marching on to victory...and trying to forget everything that happened. Swell.

Regardless of whether the program gets severe penalties from the NCAA or none (leaving it to the courts) I think the face of the football program will never be the same. They will always have a black eye from this in some form or another.

[TN1965]

Everybody from the water boy to the President has been fired. There are no longer any people in the Penn State football program that had any ties to Paterno and/or Sandusky. What more would you want them to do?

So these people are no longer with the program? Why are they still listed on their website?

Fran Ganter
http://www.gopsusports.com/genrel/ganter_fran00.html

Larry Johnson
http://www.gopsusports.com/sports/m-foo ... rry00.html

Ron Vanderlinden
http://www.gopsusports.com/sports/m-foo ... ron00.html

[Friar]

It appears they will take down Joe's likeness at Brown (alma mater). The Red Sox asked that stat-man Bill James keep his opinions on Joe to himself. I don't think I agree with the former, the latter is cool.

[jazzcyclist]

Everybody from the water boy to the President has been fired. There are no longer any people in the Penn State football program that had any ties to Paterno and/or Sandusky. What more would you want them to do?

So these people are no longer with the program? Why are they still listed on their website?

Fran Ganter
http://www.gopsusports.com/genrel/ganter_fran00.html

Larry Johnson
http://www.gopsusports.com/sports/m-foo ... rry00.html

Ron Vanderlinden
http://www.gopsusports.com/sports/m-foo ... ron00.html

I'm surprised that they were kept on. Last year, it was considered a foregone conclusion that O'Brien would have to start from scratch. I wonder why the media let his decision to keep them fly under the radar.

[26mi235]

Jazz, I know you are a decent fellow and all, and I mean no offense, but your thinking somehow strikes me as similar to how Penn State got into this whole mess.

I do not think this is accurate at all, even if it seems like it might be on the surface.

Giving the school the NCAA 'death penalty' might make people feel good, but would it really be much of a deterrent to a Sandusky? What would lead to the Paternos doing the right thing the next tie. At the Rose Bowl trip this year a Wisconsin Asst (Associate?) AD was hitting on (male) student workers and was immediately booted as soon as they got back and could interview the person -- probably an accelerated reaction due to Penn State, but it probably would have happened in some manner.

While it is not the main point, it is not irrelevant that shutting down the football program will likely result in thousands of people being unemployed with many, many families, often struggling ones, adversely affected.

[TN1965]

FWIW...

"NCAA president talks about possible Penn State sanctions"

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/ncaaf-dr- ... ncaaf.html

[Conor Dary]

While it is not the main point, it is not irrelevant that shutting down the football program will likely result in thousands of people being unemployed with many, many families, often struggling ones, adversely affected.

I understand that. But that is a question with lots of things that get shut down. Industries, too many prisons, etc.

But if you can shut down SMU's program, and I didn't see anyone moaning about those workers, what do you do with Penn State? And the NCAA is going to do something.

Personally I hope they lower the boom.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/17/opini ... .html?_r=1

[jazzcyclist]

I understand that. But that is a question with lots of things that get shut down. Industries, too many prisons, etc.

But if you can shut down SMU's program, and I didn't see anyone moaning about those workers, what do you do with Penn State? And the NCAA is going to do something.

Personally I hope they lower the boom.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/17/opini ... .html?_r=1

CD, you don't have to agree with me on whether the NCAA should get involved or not, but do you even understand the underlying difference between the SMU and Penn State scandals?

[Conor Dary]

but do you even understand the underlying difference between the SMU and Penn State scandals?

Jazz, you are getting really annoying on this. Screw the football team. I hope Happy Valley and the whole area goes into bankruptcy.

The NCAA is going to lower the boom. The sooner the better.

[gh]

don't make me invoke Rule 14 here guys (as happened to one of the Symmonds threads this afternoon)

[Conor Dary]

don't make me invoke Rule 14 here guys (as happened to one of the Symmonds threads this afternoon)

Saved by the bell. I have no more to say. At this point it is up to PSU and/or the NCAA.

[Daisy]

Is it viable to spin off the D1 football teams into a semi-professional farm team league? Any sports program that is big enough to damage the academic mission really has no business being part of a university.

[Conor Dary]

Is it viable to spin off the D1 football teams into a semi-professional farm team league? Any sports program that is big enough to damage the academic mission really has no business being part of a university.

Hey, I like that idea.

[Daisy]

Hey, I like that idea.

One potential problem. Would the players still work for free?

[Conor Dary]

Hey, I like that idea.

One potential problem. Would the players still work for free?

Aye, there's the rub.

[jazzcyclist]

Hey, I like that idea.

One potential problem. Would the players still work for free?

Another consequence is that with the exception of division I men's basketball, it would mark the end of big-time college sports as we know, including our beloved track and field.

[Bruce Kritzler]

With all due respect, this is totally outside the purview of the NCAA's authority. The NCAA is supposed to police fair play among its member institutions, not delve into matters better left to the criminal justice system. Penn State got no competitive advantage from Sandusky's crimes and the subsequent cover-up. Even with the Baylor men's basketball team scandal, which involved drug dealing, murder and murder cover-up, the NCAA kept its beak out. And when you consider how incompetent the NCAA is at doing the job it's supposed to do - turning a blind eye at Auburn, Cam Newton and Ohio State while going after low hanging fruit like Cal Tech - do you really want them involved in criminal justice matters too?

It's called "Lack of Institutional control" (the biggest ncaa violation)