[London DL: m800—]Symmonds not invited

[jjimbojames]

Symmonds tweet says "I was gonna race the 800" yet on his timeline, someone says he was told by Symmonds that he had been banned in March, so wouldn't be racing

He wasn't that high profile in March - hence the need for the tattoo sponsorship - and hadn't won the US title, so no reason to pick him over anyone else

That said, reading some of the tweets about him did make me lol - "I'm not watching if Nick's not running / banning the high profile stars like Nick is bad for the sport" etc.

Reality check required here. He's no Rudisha/Bolt/Kaki/AN Other that sells seats. Viewing will be just as high - especially as he's now been helping to promote the meet!

[gh]

[...
I'm happy to go off a trend line of times and marks and leave "wins" out of the equation completely. Scherer and Centrowitz are in the London 800. Come on. They should be in the "B" race. So there was PLENTY of space for Symmonds....

Scherer is the rabbit!

And Centrowitz won a World Champs medal last year. Symmonds has none. So guess what? Centro provides more bang for the promotion buck than Symmonds does, because of that, even if the medal was in the 1500 not the 800.

Meet promoters, to remain in business, have to be savvy bottom-line bean-counters. It's all about putting as many bums in the seats as you can without breaking the bank to get the talent.

[gh]

[....
Can you explain to me what Elijah Greer has done that gives him a lane over Symmonds?

A collegian with eligibility who doesn't cost them a dime.

[ATK]

[....
Can you explain to me what Elijah Greer has done that gives him a lane over Symmonds?

A collegian with eligibility who doesn't cost them a dime.

Yea that's what I figured at first, which is why I quoted the specific part of mump's post that made it seem as if Symmons need to be a better athlete to compete here.

[gh]

He apparently needs to be a better athlete to command the money he wants.

These lanes are never filled on a track nut's assessment of how good the various people are. That's just not how the game is played.

[Flumpy]

Can you explain to me what Elijah Greer has done that gives him a lane over Symmonds?

What he's done is not fall out with the meet promoter.

[gh]

Just to clarify, before this takes on too much of a life of its own: I have seen no evidence that there was any "falling out" that led to Symmonds not being in the meet. Since he was denied entry, he has definitely made sure that there is now one.

[Randy Treadway]

And Centrowitz won a World Champs medal last year. Symmonds has none. So guess what? Centro provides more bang for the promotion buck than Symmonds does, because of that, even if the medal was in the 1500 not the 800.

Bang for the buck all right. Last place (11th) 1:48.42.

[gh]

you're not understanding the dynamics of selling a track meet. The goal is to sell them on people BEFORE the meet. After that, 99% of them are mere spear-carriers and it doesn't matter what they do in the competition proper.

The ticket sales that matter go to casual fans of the sport, not a few hardcore numbers geeks who read the results that deeply and know what it means.

[mal]

So the future of track is in the hands of promoters.

Eventually they'll have monkey jockeys and mutton busters.

[gh]

It always has been and always will be. Who else is going to find the money to put on meets?

Somebody has to sell the sponsors (not to mention those who fill the seats). This stuff doesn't happen in a vacuum.

[gm]

Eventually they'll have monkey jockeys and mutton busters.

I would absolutely buy a ticket to any meet promoting an 800 with whip-wielding monkeys strapped to the back of each contestant!

[doug5321]

it looks like a lot of athletes were not invited, this is the weakest diamond league meet of the year, and the fact it is in london i thought most of the top athletes would like to do a race on the olympic track a few weeks before the olympics.

a very watered down meet and i am not talking about the rain.

[jjimbojames]

it looks like a lot of athletes were not invited, this is the weakest diamond league meet of the year, and the fact it is in london i thought most of the top athletes would like to do a race on the olympic track a few weeks before the olympics.

a very watered down meet and i am not talking about the rain.

It's at Crystal Palace, not the Olympic track! I guess a fair few are training hard and thought that a race mid-training block might do more harm than good

[gh]

When I sat at Crystal Palace last year I also had a "watered down" feeling. Probably because there are only half as many actual DL events on a given day at other meets.

But it also probably is because a lot of money goes to people in non-DL events that would normally be available to high-enders.

Having said all that, I'm guessing the general public comes away pretty happy because they get to see many (many-many) British athletes in action that they otherwise wouldn't, and rooting for the home team remains huge at DL meets, no matter how "international" one might want them to be.

[nicest person ever]

Jeez, how infuriatingly clique-ish this thread is...

You guys mention a "dust up" that happened between Symmonds and some dude's wife, which obviously sounds pretty interesting and relevant to the discussion, if he was supposedly banned from the meet by the husband of the person he got in a fight with, and then when I ask what happened, first someone says it was "far worse" than a fight, so now I'm really interested, and then another guy asks seriously wtf happened, and all the people in the know go silent, and finally half a page later vaguely mention some other person involved and still refuse to say what happened, because OH NO would that be terrible to let any of us non cool people into the know about it. Wtf... why make the thread and mention all this juicy stuff in the first place and then go silent when people ask you guys to elaborate. I hate when people do that. I knew people who constantly did that kind of thing in high school, and they made me extremely angry. One time I got so angry that I sat down in the middle of the classroom during Silent Sustained Reading at the beginning of English class, and everyone was staring at me and asking me what I was doing, and I said I was protesting Kristy's assholicism, so then I poured a bunch of gasoline all over myself and lit myself on fire while I was sitting cross legged and meditating, and it had a very strong emotional impact on everyone. They were like "That was good of you to stand up for your rights, NPE, you are a good person, unlike Kristy, who is a gossip-holdout-ing-meano. We took a photo of you while you were self immolating and showed it to the rest of the school, and now the whole school has changed its mindset. You are a gamechanger and a wonderful person, unlike Kristy." And I was like "No probs yo, that's how I roll." Even Kristy came 'round after a while and was like "I've been doing a lot of thinking, after what you did, and it was really a wake-up call for me. And then she told me the remainder of the gossip story that she had initially held out on me, and then afterwards we had passionate sex and meandered off into the sunset, theoretically. The end.

[mump boy]

...
The US champs- in particular the US Trials version, which happens only once every 4 years- is tough enough in most events that winning there should get you into most Diamond League events.... ...

There's a hilariously U.S.-centric view of the universe.

I'm happy to go off a trend line of times and marks and leave "wins" out of the equation completely. Scherer and Centrowitz are in the London 800. Come on. They should be in the "B" race. So there was PLENTY of space for Symmonds.

What we're hearing are just anecdotes and tweets that leave a WHOLE lot out, but we're hearing that Stewart refused to even negotiate appearance fee at ALL with Symmonds. That may or may not be true. If it was Symmonds who walked away because they couldn't agree on fee, fine... but simply Stewart saying 'not in MY meet, never, no way Jose'........I know that's exactly how promoters work, but it stinks. The athletes need a union. But in this case, I'm not sure how much support, if any, Symmonds gets from other athletes. Maybe they hate his guts too... I don't know.

athletes are booked for races for all kinds of reasons, unless you are David Rudisha or Andrew Osagie the meet director in a UK meet has absolutely no reason to negotiate with you. You bring nothing to the party that someone else couldn't.

[mump boy]

it looks like a lot of athletes were not invited, this is the weakest diamond league meet of the year, and the fact it is in london i thought most of the top athletes would like to do a race on the olympic track a few weeks before the olympics.

a very watered down meet and i am not talking about the rain.

It's the same EVERY year, spread too think over 2 days so we have some great fields (both 400h, WHJ, W100h, wSP) and some so piss poor they look like a joke

I wish it would just go back to 1 day really high quality meet

[nicest person ever]

Seriously can anyone elaborate what happened at that december "dust up" thing. Who fought who? What did they say/yell at each other? What happened exactly?

Why mention it in the first place, but then refuse to elaborate when we ask about it. Spit it out already! Jeez!

[Mighty Favog]

http://tracksuperfan.com/symmonds-stewart-controversy

[Anthony Treacher]

Modern internet communications media give us an unprecented and valuable insight into how officials comment on and treat athletes. I assure you the athlete risks a lot by speaking out against ill-treatment. So - irrespective of personalities, rank, previous conduct, etc. - it would be more natural if we all first believed in what the athlete is telling us now, until we have objective reasons not to.

[Randy Treadway]

http://tracksuperfan.com/symmonds-stewart-controversy

Ahhhh.... I see. So there's a nascient union movement, which (no suprise) the promoters (the bosses) are vehemently against. They want to squash it before it can even get started. So they start blacklisting those who appear to be leaders of the unionization movement.
We've seen this before haven't we?

Has anybody ever considered that Stephanie Hightower may have a serious conflict of interest between her elected leadership position in U.S. Track & Field, and her husband being a major meet promoter in Europe? Just asking.

[j-a-m]

over 2 days

Isn't the issue rather that's it's too close to the Olympics to get many of the top athletes? (don't remember the timing in recent years).

[mump boy]

Ian Stewart is VERY opinionated, VERY outspoken and will not be threatened by any athlete especially not a 2nd rank US 800m runner.

I'm all for unions and workers standing up for their rights but there is a way of doing it and this isn't it. Firstly the argument is not with meet promoters it's with IAAF, secondly promoters have a hard enough time getting sponsorship for track meets in the first place, imagine if all potential sponsors are told

'by the way every single athlete is going to be covered in sponsorship some of it may be your direct competitors and they are going to get big close ups, pointing at them as they cross the line !!'

it's just not viable, why do you think USATF or Ian Stewart are agains the idea, because they like seeing athletes struggle ? or because they have to be pragmatic about the way meetings are funded.

Nick may well have a VERY valid point but he's not going to win the way behaving like this. In any fight you need someone to create the noise and someone else to go behind the scenes and do the talking,a bit more diplomacy wouldn't go a miss, i hope there is someone else working on that

[Flumpy]

over 2 days

Isn't the issue rather that's it's too close to the Olympics to get many of the top athletes? (don't remember the timing in recent years).

It's ALWAYS a bit shit however close to the major meet. Because it's spread over 2 days there are really week fields in some events every year, presumably because of the financial implications of paying all the big names to attend.

[DrJay]

Wow! This thread is all over the place.

And now, back to the actual race. Anyone know Centro's 800 PR? I couldn't pull up his USATF bio on my iPad. Heck, someone may have to close in 1:48-1:50 to medal next month.

[polevaultpower]

Nick tweeted this earlier:
“@tracksuperfan: @RunLiao If @NickSymmonds was too expensive to invite, he wouldn't need multiple sponsors!” -I always run for free at DLs

Nick has always been really honest as far as I can tell. I can't imagine he would lie about this, there's too much on the line.

[26mi235]

Mump, how many Brits make the Championship finals in the 800? How many second rank runners do?

[MightyBurner]

Nick needs to shut up. He whines way too much for someone who gets as much attention as he does.

[Randy Treadway]

Ian Stewart is VERY opinionated, VERY outspoken and will not be threatened by any athlete especially not a 2nd rank US 800m runner.

Wow, what a drop. From "third fastest runner available to the field" all the way to "2nd rank". That's a huge drop. It also hints at something personal. Just how did Symmonds threaten Stewart? We haven't heard THAT story. Why are you hiding it? Spill it.

I know neither Stewart or Symmonds.

To me, if a runner shows up at the starting line with more uniform ads than is allowed by IAAF rules, then the check-in clerk turns them away or asks them to change their gear.
If Stewart beforehand said, 'now Nick, I can only invite you if you promise to only wear ads within IAAF rules', and Nick said "I can't do that", and walked away, then we have a WHOLE DIFFERENT story.

But what we're hearing is that Stewart has taken it upon himself to be judge, jury and executioner and "ban" certain groups of people. If Stewart has a beef, he needs to take it to an IAAF hearing and let THEM ban people who flagrantly and repeatedly break the rules.

Only IAAF (or national federation) bans should be in effect, not blacklists. So why is Stewart NOT taking it to the IAAF with a complaint? Maybe because he knows he doesn't have a case?

Given that this is a professional sport, if Stewart's meet were in the U.S., Symmonds could go to court and file against Stewart for restraint of trade for refusing to negotiate in good faith. None of us want this in the courtroom, so it sounds like IAAF needs to step in and get control of this situation before somebody DOES take it to court.

I think IAAF needs a new rule that Diamond league promoters cannot turn away athletes who are qualified for a field, and at least are required to negotiate a fee in good faith. If an athlete offers to run for free and they're fully qualified, they can't be turned away, although a better qualified athlete could BUMP them if a field gets full.

Somebody mentioned the history of professional tennis and how the ATP tour got formed. The athletes basically formed their OWN tour and broke the back of the previous tournament promoters. I think Stewart and some others are scared to death of talk like that, because they know it would be the end of their gravy train.

If there's more that you're STILL not telling us, then start telling because the other side is starting to sound very convincing.

[Randy Treadway]

Anyone know Centro's 800 PR?

The London GP entry list (which is now replaced by the results) said his PB was something like 1:46 or 1:47, I forget which. He ran within a second or two of his PB, which is a respectable effort for him. No disrespect to Centro at all. The only question was how did he get into the field, when Symmonds tried but could not, even offering (we heard later) to run for free.

[aaronk]

Anyone know Centro's 800 PR?

The London GP entry list (which is now replaced by the results) said his PB was something like 1:46 or 1:47, I forget which. He ran within a second or two of his PB, which is a respectable effort for him. No disrespect to Centro at all. The only question was how did he get into the field, when Symmonds tried but could not, even offering (we heard later) to run for free.

The FAST Annual 2012 (and USATF Media Guide) list only one 800 for Matt.
It's a 1:47.77 from 2010.

[polevaultpower]

Nick has always been clear that he will obey IAAF logo rules at meets that require them. He has never threatened to peel off the tape covering his temporary tattoo at an IAAF meet. It's not about Stewart being afraid Nick or Lolo would actually break the rules, my guess is it's about him wanting control and not wanting attention focused on them and away from his meet.

I think he lost this one though. Had they run the meet, there would likely have been next to zero new press about logos and such and it would have just added to the caliber of the meet. Instead, it is making a ruckus that is pretty negative about his meet. It'll be interesting to see if any of the mainstream media picks it up... normally I would say no, but this happened in London with the Olympics there in a few weeks...

I would think the Diamond League powers-that-be are watching the situation with some interest...

[Ned Ryerson]

I think maybe the time has come for the IAAF to take over the selection process- not for these entire meets- but for the Diamond League events. Admission standards should be defined. It also means IAAF would take over the appearance fees in those Diamond League events... and one would think that those could be defined by some kind of standards as well, so that 'negotiating' is not even necessary. Overall meet promoters would simply pay a significant franchise fee to the IAAF to have Diamond status, and this in turn provides IAAF the funds for the athlete fees.

I know, this proposal would turn the top end of the sport on its head. Maybe it's needed.

So the IAAF is going to hand over how many millions of dollars in appearance fees that have, until now, come from the meets? So if I'm London, why wouldn't I say, "that sounds great, IAAF. We'd like a 100m dash with Bolt, Gay, Powell and Blake. Let us know when to book the ticket."

[Randy Treadway]

So if I'm London, why wouldn't I say, "that sounds great, IAAF. We'd like a 100m dash with Bolt, Gay, Powell and Blake. Let us know when to book the ticket."

Let's say somebody named Wilson is #1 in the world and has been for 3 years. London says they want Bolt, Gay, Powell and Blake. IAAF goes down their 100m list and makes offers, and London ends up with Wilson, Bolt, and Blake. And some other sprinters a little further down the list to fill out the field. The agents for Gay and Powell received the IAAF offer for London, but decided they want to pass on London because they'd rather run in Athens 2 days later. And Powell wasn't happy with the appearance fee IAAF offered, so he passed. London then complains that they don't want Wilson because he didn't curtsy when the Queen passed by last year. The IAAF says you've can't turn down Wilson, case closed. IAAF also advises Wilson to be nice to the locals--- you don't have to curtsy, but don't shoot her the bird either.

Reality speaking- the IAAF or ANY promoter is going to get turned down for a London meet by a LOT of short sprinters, simply because of the climate. So....the IAAF would keep going down the list until they fill out a field.

That's just for Diamond League events. For other events in the same meet, the locals can cobble together the entrants using the standard enticements, and mixing in some local 'future star' types.

If the Diamond League is IAAF's product, then IAAF needs to protect the integrity of its product.