Penn State/State Pen [split]


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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Dutra5 » Wed Jun 27, 2012 8:32 pm

gh wrote:one fundamental problem i have with all aberrant behavior is the nagging thought that indeed some people are just "wired differently"; if so, how does one fairly treat these people who are victims of their own genetics? Sorry, I have trouble believing in "choice" in these things, even with child molestation. At the bottom end, it's your body (not your mind) telling you what to do, if that makes sense.

And no, I'm not suggesting any kind of "amnesty" on these grounds. As an inquisitive science-based person, I'm just fascinated by the fact that we (make that THEY!) can be screwed from birth.


I could write an extroadinarily long post on this very issue as my wife and I are the parents of a son who, from a fairly early age (I'm talking 3 or 4 years old) it was apparent he struggled with some issues. He's been through medical and psychiatric workups without strict definition of what the issue might be. He has some elements of Aspergers and ADD (not ADHD) and even autism. Socially he struggles yet...in certain respects he can function. He has difficulty discerning what's acceptable and what isn't and seems to have little empathy for anyone including his parents and siblings. He's been in and out of trouble (currently in) since he was 12 years old. He's not a mass murderer however he's clearly been handed a bad lot from the start.

We have two other children who are both perfectly "normal". All raised in the same household and with birthdates within 3 years of each other.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby SQUACKEE » Thu Jun 28, 2012 2:39 am

Anyone who doesn't believe we come into this world with a lot of who we are, explain this

Mozart writing classical music at the age of 5 or the fact that Einstein was way more smarter then your friend Chuck. Or that Reese Hoffa and Bernard Lagat have vastly different P.R.'s in the mile and Shot Putt. Or the guy who can remember everyday of his life. "What day was June 15 1976? "A Sunday."

Therefore a tendency towards, lets say unacceptable behavior, could also be acquired in the womb?
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Athleticsimaging » Sun Jul 01, 2012 5:18 am

SQUACKEE wrote:Anyone who doesn't believe we come into this world with a lot of who we are, explain this

Mozart writing classical music at the age of 5.......
Mozart was subject to intensive,ongoing instruction in all aspects of music by his father, a talented musician. Most music scholars would say that Mozart did not produce anything truly enduring until more than a decade later. In no way was he purely a genetic freak.

This is not to say that some people are not completely gifted, or fucked up, from birth but apart from those at the extremes of the statistical distribution, most problems arise from the environment to which people are subjected.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby SQUACKEE » Mon Jul 02, 2012 2:49 am

Athleticsimaging wrote:
SQUACKEE wrote:Anyone who doesn't believe we come into this world with a lot of who we are, explain this

Mozart writing classical music at the age of 5.......
Mozart was subject to intensive,ongoing instruction in all aspects of music by his father, a talented musician. Most music scholars would say that Mozart did not produce anything truly enduring until more than a decade later. In no way was he purely a genetic freak.

This is not to say that some people are not completely gifted, or fucked up, from birth but apart from those at the extremes of the statistical distribution, most problems arise from the environment to which people are subjected.


I know his daddy was coaching him, but I still think the kid had talent.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby gh » Tue Jul 03, 2012 6:41 am

Scott Ostler in the SF Chronicle last weekend:

<<... The Penn State horror story has taken a twist for the sicker.

And Joe Paterno's legacy is now more clearly defined.

E-mails have been uncovered by NBC. Three scared sheep - Penn State's president, vice president and athletic director - were going to alert the real authorities to the possible misdeeds of Jerry Sandusky, until the athletic director spoke with Paterno and persuaded the other two Sheep not to be so rash....>>

http://www.sfgate.com/default/article/U ... 676698.php
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby SQUACKEE » Tue Jul 03, 2012 8:12 am

gh wrote:Scott Ostler in the SF Chronicle last weekend:

<<... The Penn State horror story has taken a twist for the sicker.

And Joe Paterno's legacy is now more clearly defined.

E-mails have been uncovered by NBC. Three scared sheep - Penn State's president, vice president and athletic director - were going to alert the real authorities to the possible misdeeds of Jerry Sandusky, until the athletic director spoke with Paterno and persuaded the other two Sheep not to be so rash....>>

http://www.sfgate.com/default/article/U ... 676698.php


The smoking gun, if you will. They are soooo screwed. :twisted:
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby slowjo » Tue Jul 03, 2012 10:45 am

How on earth anyone could know or even worse see young boys being abused and not do something immediately is beyond me.

I can barely keep quiet when I see very subtle forms of poor parenting in public.

Disgusting!

I await futher charges.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby SQUACKEE » Tue Jul 03, 2012 11:05 am

slowjo wrote:How on earth anyone could know or even worse see young boys being abused and not do something immediately is beyond me.

I can barely keep quiet when I see very subtle forms of poor parenting in public.

Disgusting!

I await futher charges.


The tried to keep it quite as to not hurt Penn State football and it begs the question, what else would they push under the rug? Murder?
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Jackaloupe » Tue Jul 03, 2012 11:32 am

Murder? Now, now, this DisCussin' has (properly) gone into every little nuance, but why resort to speculative hyperbole when there's so much ongoing substance?

BTW, To beg the question is NOT to prompt one (a dumb usage propagated by Cable TV), but a rhetorical repetition of the initial premise w/o advancing the argument/discussion; or to base an argument on an unfounded premise. Now that's what you're verging on, which prompts my own question. Haven't we had enough of going over the same ground, viz. how nasty Sandusky's reprehensible acts were? Since all seem agreed on that--if not their genetic vs. environment basis--why not stick to the facts of the ever-deepening case against Penn State, as GH has just done.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby SQUACKEE » Tue Jul 03, 2012 11:57 am

Jackaloupe wrote:Murder? Now, now, this DisCussin' has (properly) gone into every little nuance, but why resort to speculative hyperbole when there's so much ongoing substance?

BTW, To beg the question is NOT to prompt one (a dumb usage propagated by Cable TV), but a rhetorical repetition of the initial premise w/o advancing the argument/discussion; or to base an argument on an unfounded premise. Now that's what you're verging on, which prompts my own question. Haven't we had enough of going over the same ground, viz. how nasty Sandusky's reprehensible acts were? Since all seem agreed on that--if not their genetic vs. environment basis--why not stick to the facts of the ever-deepening case against Penn State, as GH has just done.


They willingly ignored the rape of a child, so I just wondered if that was their limit. A logical question.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby lonewolf » Tue Jul 03, 2012 1:50 pm

Is anyone surprised by these belated revelations?
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Master Po » Tue Jul 03, 2012 3:00 pm

I guess I am somehow at once both surprised and not surprised. At some point in all of this I asked myself, rhetorically, "How could this be any worse?" Well, these surprising-and-not-surprising revelations somehow makes this even worse, at least for me. I knew already that supposedly responsible adults had turned away from knowledge of the abuse of children, but there's something in this news about the deliberateness of their turning away -- these people consulted with each other, thought about their options, considered what they really valued, and proceeded to turn away. Seeing those actions in this news makes me more ill in thinking about this than I was before.

Being a very flawed person who has mostly fallen short of his ideals, I am wary of directing moral condemnation at others when I have never been in their situation, but --- as so many others have attested to in this thread -- these actions and failures to act are heinous. I hope these others are brought to some form of accounting for their actions and punished for what seem to me to be actions that make them accessories to child abuse.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby SQUACKEE » Wed Jul 04, 2012 10:24 am

Master Po wrote:I guess I am somehow at once both surprised and not surprised. At some point in all of this I asked myself, rhetorically, "How could this be any worse?" Well, these surprising-and-not-surprising revelations somehow makes this even worse, at least for me. I knew already that supposedly responsible adults had turned away from knowledge of the abuse of children, but there's something in this news about the deliberateness of their turning away -- these people consulted with each other, thought about their options, considered what they really valued, and proceeded to turn away. Seeing those actions in this news makes me more ill in thinking about this than I was before.

Being a very flawed person who has mostly fallen short of his ideals, I am wary of directing moral condemnation at others when I have never been in their situation, but --- as so many others have attested to in this thread -- these actions and failures to act are heinous. I hope these others are brought to some form of accounting for their actions and punished for what seem to me to be actions that make them accessories to child abuse.


Well said and I don't think there is anything else to say right now. We will wait to see the next chapter.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby 26mi235 » Thu Jul 12, 2012 8:06 am

Free report coming in:

Penn State leaders including former President Graham Spanier and late football coach Joe Paterno covered up Jerry Sandusky's child sexual abuse for years to save the reputation of the school and its multimillon-dollar football program, former FBI director Louis Freeh said on Thursday.


http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/sns-rt-us-usa-crime-sanduskybre86b05d-20120711,0,5217577.story

The most damaging evidence came from the discovery of "critical" emails exchanged in 1998 and 2001.

Among the emails was a series in which top school officials discussed reporting the allegations about Sandusky to authorities, even going so far as to propose a plan. After speaking with Paterno, however, "they changed the plan and decided not to make a report" to police or child protective services.

"Their failure to protect the February 9, 2001 child victim, or make attempts to identify him, created a dangerous situation for other unknown, unsuspecting young boys who were lured to the Penn State campus and football games by Sandusky and victimized repeatedly by him," Freeh said.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Conor Dary » Thu Jul 12, 2012 8:39 am

    "The most powerful men at Penn State failed to take any steps for 14 years to protect the children who Sandusky victimized," Freeh said.

    "In short, nothing was done and Sandusky was allowed to continue with impunity," he added.

    "Messrs. Spanier, Schultz, Paterno and Curley never demonstrated, through actions or words, any concern for the safety and well-being of Sandusky's victims until after Sandusky's arrest," Freeh said.

    "Even though they all knew about the 1998 incident, the best they could muster to protect Sandusky's victims was to ask Sandusky not to bring his 'guests' into the Penn State facilities," Freeh said.

What a cesspool Penn State has sunk into.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby jazzcyclist » Thu Jul 12, 2012 9:42 am

Right on cue, Christine Breenan appears on ESPN doing her usual screeching calling for Penn State football to be shut down. Of course she would be up in arms over the loss of the women scholarships if Penn State were to do such a thing. Hats off to Chris McKendry for telling her how ridiculous this idea is.
Last edited by jazzcyclist on Thu Jul 12, 2012 9:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Marlow » Thu Jul 12, 2012 9:49 am

jazzcyclist wrote:Right on cue, Christine Breenan appears on ESPN doing her usual screeching calling for Penn State football to be shut down.

Anyone who knew (and there had to be DOZENS) have to go, but there's a silver lining. Bad things happen occasionally in almost every program, and perhaps, given the enormity of the PSU situation, people will be less likely to attempt a cover-up. [he said, overly optimistically]
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby jazzcyclist » Thu Jul 12, 2012 9:52 am

Marlow wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote:Right on cue, Christine Breenan appears on ESPN doing her usual screeching calling for Penn State football to be shut down.

Anyone who knew (and there had to be DOZENS) have to go, but there's a silver lining. Bad things happen occasionally in almost every program, and perhaps, given the enormity of the PSU situation, people will be less likely to attempt a cover-up.

But everyone from the water boy to the President has been run off, and certainly none of the players from that era are still on the team.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby gh » Thu Jul 12, 2012 10:12 am

Not exactly... as the Brennan you despise pointed out in a column before the decision, the ex-prez is still a tenured faculty member.

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/columnis ... 56151882/1

Meanwhile, didn't I read the other day that the school just enjoyed a recordbreaking year in the donations department?
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby jazzcyclist » Thu Jul 12, 2012 11:30 am

gh wrote:Not exactly... as the Brennan you despise pointed out in a column before the decision, the ex-prez is still a tenured faculty member.


But if he's tenured, the school's hands are tied unless he's convicted of a crime.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby 26mi235 » Thu Jul 12, 2012 12:14 pm

The Penn State people that I talked with at the Big Ten meet were not happy campers about what the football people and the admin side linked with them had done and I got the sense that they did not particularly like the football side/dominance even before this came to light. Of course, I suspect that Harry Grove would not have left it to 'getting a sense' as he tended to speak his mind and not mince words in the one occasion I had to talk with him.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Pego » Thu Jul 12, 2012 1:15 pm

Marlow wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote:Right on cue, Christine Breenan appears on ESPN doing her usual screeching calling for Penn State <a class="inlineAdmedialink" href="#">football</a> to be shut down.

Anyone who knew (and there had to be DOZENS) have to go, but there's a silver lining. Bad things happen occasionally in almost every program, and perhaps, given the enormity of the PSU situation, people will be less likely to attempt a cover-up. [he said, overly optimistically]


Sorry Marlow, no silver lining, just a depressing revelation. And yes, you are overly optimistic here, naive even :( .
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby kuha » Thu Jul 12, 2012 1:23 pm

Right. That's a cheap plastic lining, not silver.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Marlow » Thu Jul 12, 2012 1:27 pm

Pego wrote:Sorry Marlow, no silver lining, just a depressing revelation. And yes, you are overly optimistic here, naive even :( .

Naive would be not knowing. I know, but choose to believe people can actually learn from others' mistakes. I'm often disappointed, but I'd rather live in a world of bright possibilities, not dark cynicism (not that you do, but many do).
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Pego » Thu Jul 12, 2012 1:40 pm

Marlow wrote:
Pego wrote:Sorry Marlow, no silver lining, just a depressing revelation. And yes, you are overly optimistic here, naive even :( .

Naive would be not knowing. I know, but choose to believe people can actually learn from others' mistakes. I'm often disappointed, but I'd rather live in a world of bright possibilities, not dark cynicism (not that you do, but many do).


I am not saying some people would not do the right thing under the circumstances, I know many that would. I am saying that they would do it on principle, not because somebody else got slammed for it.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby guru » Thu Jul 12, 2012 2:21 pm

Nike removes Paterno's name from child center on it's Beaverton campus.

http://www.oregonlive.com/playbooks-pro ... child.html
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Marlow » Thu Jul 12, 2012 3:01 pm

Pego wrote: they would do it on principle, not because somebody else got slammed for it.

Good point. I'm just hoping that some people only need 'reminders'.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby lonewolf » Thu Jul 12, 2012 3:34 pm

I don't know how far to go in punishing the "sins of the fathers" but Penn State deserves a powerful comeuppance.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby bad hammy » Thu Jul 12, 2012 3:38 pm

guru wrote:Nike removes Paterno's name from child center on it's Beaverton campus.

Good idea . . .
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Conor Dary » Thu Jul 12, 2012 4:02 pm

    A debate over the future of Penn State’s football program and whether the university should now remove a statue of the longtime football coach Joe Paterno on campus erupted online Wednesday after the release of a scathing new report that concluded the late Mr. Paterno and top university officials concealed child abuse allegations against Jerry Sandusky for more than 14 years.

    "That Paterno statue needs to come down Baghdad style today! #PSU"

http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/0 ... enn-state/
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Conor Dary » Fri Jul 13, 2012 6:26 am

In all of the years of reading the NYTimes I have never seen this scathing of a headline on the front page.

Abuse Scandal Inquiry Damns Paterno and Penn State
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby gh » Fri Jul 13, 2012 6:50 am

Head on the Scott Ostler column in SF Chron this morning included the words "Cowardly Lions"

His lead:

<<It's a long report, it seems so meticulous, thorough and without bias, and yet there seems to be something missing.

A hero. How can there be an epic story without a hero, without at least one good guy? In the cast of hundreds in Louis Freeh's report on the child-sex-abuse scandal at Penn State, how is it possible that everyone is a villain?....>>

http://www.sfgate.com/default/article/R ... 703650.php
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Marlow » Fri Jul 13, 2012 7:04 am

Conor Dary wrote:"That Paterno statue needs to come down Baghdad style today! #PSU"[/list]

Quietly removed would be fine. There will be many JoePa supporters out there still, but his reputation and all he achieved are rightfully ruined forever.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby BruceFlorman » Fri Jul 13, 2012 7:32 am

gh wrote:Head on the Scott Ostler column in SF Chron this morning included the words "Cowardly Lions"

His lead:

<<It's a long report, it seems so meticulous, thorough and without bias, and yet there seems to be something missing.

A hero. How can there be an epic story without a hero, without at least one good guy? In the cast of hundreds in Louis Freeh's report on the child-sex-abuse scandal at Penn State, how is it possible that everyone is a villain?....>>

http://www.sfgate.com/default/article/R ... 703650.php

Two alternative explanations spring readily to mind:

#1 The people at Penn State are uncommonly despicable.

#2 Human beings are almost all pretty despicable, but we just like to believe we aren't, because we're rarely put to the test in reality.

Call me cynical, but I don't put much stock in all the loud pronouncements about how "I would have done the right thing!"
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Conor Dary » Fri Jul 13, 2012 7:42 am

BruceFlorman wrote:

#2 Human beings are almost all pretty despicable, but we just like to believe we aren't, because we're rarely put to the test in reality.

Call me cynical, but I don't put much stock in all the loud pronouncements about how "I would have done the right thing!"


Lovely. :roll:
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby jazzcyclist » Fri Jul 13, 2012 8:49 am

BruceFlorman wrote:#2 Human beings are almost all pretty despicable, but we just like to believe we aren't, because we're rarely put to the test in reality.

Call me cynical, but I don't put much stock in all the loud pronouncements about how "I would have done the right thing!"

Unfortunately, I think you're right. We all like to think of ourselves as being strong in the moral courage department, but very, very few of us have the moral courage that we think we have. We might pronounce what we would have done if we had walked in another person's shoes, but the only way to know for sure what you would do is to actually walk in those shoes. There have been studies that have proven this. It's why mass scale atrocities have taken place throughout human history and will continue to take place as long as man exists.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Conor Dary » Fri Jul 13, 2012 9:10 am

Conor Dary wrote:
BruceFlorman wrote:

#2 Human beings are almost all pretty despicable, but we just like to believe we aren't, because we're rarely put to the test in reality.


Actually I feel quite sorry for you with an attitude like that. I have lived in different of parts the world and in this country, use to hitchhike constantly in the 1970's, and have pretty much the opposite feeling. Sure there are shitheads, but almost all people are despicable? Sounds like a rather hellish world.

The real problem with Penn State is having someone there so loooong, in a powerful position that he became godlike. If Paterno had retired at 65, there would have been another coach, back 1998, who would not have had the connection to Sandusky like Paterno did, and I believe, would have done something about it. But there was no check or balances in this situation. Mandatory retirement ages might be something for the NCAA to think about.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby jazzcyclist » Fri Jul 13, 2012 11:13 am

Conor Dary wrote:If Paterno had retired at 65, there would have been another coach, back 1998, who would not have had the connection to Sandusky like Paterno did, and I believe, would have done something about it. But there was no check or balances in this situation. Mandatory retirement ages might be something for the NCAA to think about.

Personal loyalty is generally considered to be a virtue, but I've come to the conclusion that it is one of man's greatest and most overlooked character flaws. Just think how much less corruption there would be in government if personal loyalty didn't inhibit so many would-be whistle blowers. Joe Boeheim discussed how personal loyalty blinded him with regards to Bernie Fine in this post game press conference last November.

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketb ... e-accusers
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Marlow » Fri Jul 13, 2012 11:27 am

Conor Dary wrote:The real problem with Penn State is having someone there so loooong, in a powerful position that he became godlike.

I think it's something even more nefarious - Paterno, the Prez and the AD knew that the school and the PSU program were 'bigger' than they themselves, and didn't want to be the ones to bring them both down into the garbage heap. They were not just covering their own butts, they were trying to 'protect' Happy Valley and the Nittany Lions. Ironically, now both are synonymous with corruption.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby jeremyp » Fri Jul 13, 2012 11:36 am

Marlow wrote:
Conor Dary wrote:The real problem with Penn State is having someone there so loooong, in a powerful position that he became godlike.

I think it's something even more nefarious - Paterno, the Prez and the AD knew that the school and the PSU program were 'bigger' than they themselves, and didn't want to be the ones to bring them both down into the garbage heap. They were not just covering their own butts, they were trying to 'protect' Happy Valley and the Nittany Lions. Ironically, now both are synonymous with corruption.


And had they done the right thing when they knew about it the program and Joe P would have ended up looking like moral siants. As always the mistake is in thinking "IT" can be covered up, rather than taking the high road ASAP.
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