What has happened to America?

[Grazerism]

This will be a little of a tirade, but I am actually really curious about y'all's opinions. I have been an ex-pat for 22 years, and find it hard to understand how the level of political discourse in the US has deteriorated.

I see two main problems. The first is a breakdown of the American education system. Years ago, Kurt Vonnegut was asked in a PLAYBOY interview about the basis of his strong political values. He replied, "High school civics class." As far as I know, high school civics classes no longer exist--and the idea of civic responsibility seems to have disappeared as well. Many Americans seem to have no sense of how society is supposed to work and that they all bear some responsibility for one another. And some politicians haven't helped the situation. As one of my wise New York friends says, "Ronald Reagan made greed respectable."

The second problem (ironically, given the name of this forum) is free speech. I have long believed in unfettered free speech, and still do, in principle. But Fox News (and the Internet, of course) has made me realize that the media functioned much better in my youth, when CBS, ABC, and NBC, by some unwritten consensus, presented responsible, serious journalism. Of course there was some bias and self-censorship. But Paul Harvey was not allowed to call his program an official news program, and "Fox News" would have been forced to call itself an "entertainment program". I live in "old Europe", where the basic source of news is state media. This idea is anathema to Americans--but the dispensing of news functions much better here. The citizens get relatively accurate information about what is going on in the world.

[MightyBurner]

MSNBC and Fox have started a war to try to go as far to the left and right as possible, and are killing CNN in the process.

[jeremyp]

MSNBC and Fox have started a war to try to go as far to the left and right as possible, and are killing CNN in the process.

I don't think CNN needs much help in committing suicide! Wolf Blizer? Oy Ve!
The power of the media has grown and it's veracity has diluted. The media's role to inform and educate has now become: make profits! Entertain!

[Flumpy]

I don't know the reasons for what is happening to America (Although the whole world is watching it happen) but undoubtedly your news media has a lot to answer for.

For a country that produces that intelligent TV drama (Thankyou HBO) your news is a complete joke. Everytime I'm in the USA I'm aghast at the complete drivel that passes for reporting there. Where are the serious, heavyweight journalists that you used to produce and why is there absolutely no gravitas in anything broadcast?

You used to have Walter Cronkite now it's Bill O'Reilly.

It's scary.

[odelltrclan]

People too often equate individual programs, such as "Hardball" or "Hannity" with "news". They don't profess to be so, but opinion programs of the host. There are other programs on these networks that discuss news.

[kuha]

MSNBC and Fox have started a war to try to go as far to the left and right as possible, and are killing CNN in the process.

Once again, we have this absolutely false sense of equivalence. It's sort of like splitting the difference between:

a) "the president is a radical socialist, bend on destroying America, and isn't even a citizen"
and
b) "all of this is laughably false"
to get:
c) the president is a run-of-the-mill socialist, generally against America, and he has dual citizenship
to which, of course, the proper response remains:
b) "all of this is laughably false"

"Both sides" of some issues do not deserve equal credibility and the answer may well not lie halfway in between.

FOX and MSNBC were both begun in 1996, but their histories are very different. FOX was highly political from the start: both O'Reilly and Hannity began their programs there in 1996. MSNBC only began specialize in politics in about 2001 and their current lineup didn't happen till a major revamp in about 2006. So, pretty clearly, MSNBC evolved, gradually, into something like an opposing voice to the FOX propaganda machine. Further, I defy anyone to equate them in terms of their relationship to the "reality based community" of ACTUAL facts and issues.

[TN1965]

Where are the serious, heavyweight journalists that you used to produce and why is there absolutely no gravitas in anything broadcast?

For this, I 'd try PBS and C-SPAN. Well, not "heavyweight" but certainly serious. Of course, far more people watch Fox and MSNBC, but that's their choice.

[TrakFan]

IMHO as for one of our problems.... It's counter-productive to to claim you are/have the best at whatever, and fail (refuse) to recognize your TRUE shortcomings in specific areas. When politicians thump their chests and claim our prominence (We're number-1!!) as a reason to go with the status quo... Well, the ultimate result will be continued decline those areas.

[TN1965]

...the president is a run-of-the-mill socialist, generally against America, and he has dual citizenship.

Actually, it is Michelle Bachman who is secretly "foreign." But I haven't heard any comnment from Fox News on that issue.

[Conor Dary]

I don't know the reasons for what is happening to America (Although the whole world is watching it happen) but undoubtedly your news media has a lot to answer for.
It's scary.

It seems to me the UK media isn't all peaches and cream. The print media---with a few exceptions, such as the Guardian perhaps---in the UK, for the most part really sucks....and the News of the World fiasco is still not over.

The BBC however, is excellent. Both radio and television. I wish we had the same here. And no, NPR and PBS don't count, since it is not at all the same.

[Daisy]

The print media---with a few exceptions, such as the Guardian perhaps---in the UK, for the most part really sucks

There are a few more good ones than the guardian. But you're right that the worst are terrible.

[Conor Dary]

The print media---with a few exceptions, such as the Guardian perhaps---in the UK, for the most part really sucks

There are a few more good ones than the guardian. But you're right that the worst are terrible.

A few, but not many. I use to read The Telegraph because of their sports section and doing the crossword. The rest of the paper was Tory propaganda.

[Flumpy]

Where are the serious, heavyweight journalists that you used to produce and why is there absolutely no gravitas in anything broadcast?

For this, I 'd try PBS and C-SPAN. Well, not "heavyweight" but certainly serious. Of course, far more people watch Fox and MSNBC, but that's their choice.

But that's what I mean. They may be there but you have to go looking for them instead of serious news being on mainstream primetime as it is in the UK.

[Flumpy]

I don't know the reasons for what is happening to America (Although the whole world is watching it happen) but undoubtedly your news media has a lot to answer for.
It's scary.

It seems to me the UK media isn't all peaches and cream. The print media---with a few exceptions, such as the Guardian perhaps---in the UK, for the most part really sucks....and the News of the World fiasco is still not over.

The BBC however, is excellent. Both radio and television. I wish we had the same here. And no, NPR and PBS don't count, since it is not at all the same.

I didn't for one moment suggest that it was. Much of the print media is a total disgrace but TV news on all channels is relatively serious and bias free.

[mump boy]

MSNBC and Fox have started a war to try to go as far to the left and right as possible, and are killing CNN in the process.

MSNBC could would never be called left never mind far left in anywhere else. Political discourse in US has moved so far to the right that the middle ground would be considered right anywhere else

[Conor Dary]

MSNBC and Fox have started a war to try to go as far to the left and right as possible, and are killing CNN in the process.

MSNBC could would never be called left never mind far left in anywhere else. Political discourse in US has moved so far to the right that the middle ground would be considered right anywhere else

I guess you didn't hear they are owned by the lefty group Comcast.....
And the channel has the commie Joe Scarborough...

[mump boy]

MSNBC and Fox have started a war to try to go as far to the left and right as possible, and are killing CNN in the process.

MSNBC could would never be called left never mind far left in anywhere else. Political discourse in US has moved so far to the right that the middle ground would be considered right anywhere else

I guess you didn't hear they are owned by the lefty group Comcast.....
And the channel has the commie Joe Scarborough...

I don't know what any of that means but i've watched MSNBC and it's what we would consider centre right if anything. There are no actual LEFT wing views. Democrats would be considered right wing where i'm from !!

[JRM]

I don't know what any of that means but i've watched MSNBC and it's what we would consider centre right if anything. There are no actual LEFT wing views. Democrats would be considered right wing where i'm from !!

Americans don't realize (or don't care) how far right their left is... and how beyond crazy their far right is.

[kuha]

I don't know what any of that means but i've watched MSNBC and it's what we would consider centre right if anything. There are no actual LEFT wing views. Democrats would be considered right wing where i'm from !!

Americans don't realize (or don't care) how far right their left is... and how beyond crazy their far right is.

Exactly. A really toxic combination of irrationality and unjustified, but bottomless, foaming-at-the-mouth, rage.

[JRM]

By the way, if I'm not mistaken, the terms "left wing" and "right wing" have their origins in Mump's Parliament. The Tories and Liberals (Labour?) traditionally inhabited each wing of the House -- am I right? Please feel free to comment/correct!

[TN1965]

I don't know what any of that means but i've watched MSNBC and it's what we would consider centre right if anything. There are no actual LEFT wing views. Democrats would be considered right wing where i'm from !!

"You see, everyone in Europe is a communist who would make Democracts look like right wing. That's why we should never be anything like them... The United States of America is the last bastion of freedom!"

[Flumpy]

From wiki.....

"The political terms Left and Right were coined during the French Revolution (1789–1799), referring to the seating arrangement in the Estates General: those who sat on the left generally supported the radical changes of the revolution, including the creation of a republic and secularization,[5] while those on the right were supportive of the traditional institutions of the Old Regime. Use of the term "Left" became more prominent after the restoration of the French monarchy in 1815 when it was applied to the "Independents".[6] The term was later applied to a number of revolutionary movements, especially socialism, anarchism[7] and communism as well as more reformist movements such as social democracy and social liberalism."

[mump boy]

By the way, if I'm not mistaken, the terms "left wing" and "right wing" have their origins in Mump's Parliament. The Tories and Liberals (Labour?) traditionally inhabited each wing of the House -- am I right? Please feel free to comment/correct!

Left and Right come from French parliament ofter the revolution i believe

[mump boy]

But i did it without Wiki

[Marlow]

[quote="mump boy"There are no actual LEFT wing views. [/quote]
Watch The Daily Show with Jon Stewart. THAT'S what left wing should always be - incredulous of and bitterly satiric of the Right.

[kuha]

[quote="mump boy"There are no actual LEFT wing views.

Watch The Daily Show with Jon Stewart. THAT'S what left wing should always be - incredulous of and bitterly satiric of the Right.[/quote]

Sorry, but no--they're barely to the left of the old center line. A TRUE left would include genuine socialists, strong labor voices, strong environmental voices, the whole "nationalize the steel industry" (or whatever) crowd, and more. These folks have been as rare as dodo birds for too long. I probably wouldn't support a whole lot of that agenda, BUT it would be extremely useful to make clear what a TRUE centrist position really was.

[cullman]

America has become more socially conservative and fiscally liberal the last few decades...but I do like kuha's "really toxic combination of irrationality and unjustified, but bottomless, foaming-at-the-mouth, rage" comment

Request from the cheap seats...can we have a special Presidential Election one day free-speech brouhaha...say sometime in October?

cman