yes, you can discuss Obamacare


Normally open July 4th only---the one day a year when partisan politics, religion, etc. are acceptable topics on this Board (within reason). The forum is now closed.

yes, you can discuss Obamacare

Postby gh » Thu Jun 28, 2012 11:19 am

but not until Tuesday, and only on the FreeSpeech Forum, which will be opened for the July 4 holiday as always.
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Re: YES, YOU CAN DISCUSS OBAMACARE.....

Postby Conor Dary » Thu Jun 28, 2012 11:32 am

You had me worried there...I thought it had already had started.
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Re: YES, YOU CAN DISCUSS OBAMACARE.....

Postby uakari » Thu Jun 28, 2012 12:50 pm

why? i much rather talk about the kardashians or snooki... much more important stuff. :mrgreen: :twisted: :evil:
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Re: YES, YOU CAN DISCUSS OBAMACARE.....

Postby JRM » Fri Jun 29, 2012 9:56 am

How about opening up the FS forum for Canada Day through the 4th, so we can school you hosers on how healthcare is supposed to work! 8-)
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Re: YES, YOU CAN DISCUSS OBAMACARE.....

Postby Marlow » Fri Jun 29, 2012 10:18 am

ObamaCare affects me not one whit, but it fascinates me that it elicits such rancor - on both sides! Obviously this will be a key issue in the election (and the economy, of course). This election certainly seems to be shaping up to be the most acrimonious EVER!!! :shock:

I predict that the FS forum will involve some very discourteous discourse!!!
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Re: YES, YOU CAN DISCUSS OBAMACARE.....

Postby Conor Dary » Fri Jun 29, 2012 10:32 am

Just leave it all until the 4th.
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Re: YES, YOU CAN DISCUSS OBAMACARE.....

Postby Conor Dary » Fri Jun 29, 2012 10:34 am

Marlow wrote:

I predict that the FS forum will involve some very discourteous discourse!!!


I thought last year went pretty well. Some pretty good discussions.
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Re: YES, YOU CAN DISCUSS OBAMACARE.....

Postby Flumpy » Fri Jun 29, 2012 12:58 pm

I'm counting down the days :mrgreen:
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Re: YES, YOU CAN DISCUSS OBAMACARE.....

Postby jeremyp » Mon Jul 02, 2012 11:46 am

gh wrote:but not until Tuesday, and only on the FreeSpeech Forum, which will be opened for the July 4 holiday as always.

Is that a mandate? Will we be charged a fine or a tax if we discuss it now?
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Re: YES, YOU CAN DISCUSS OBAMACARE.....

Postby gh » Mon Jul 02, 2012 1:59 pm

are you willing to risk finding out what will happen?
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Re: YES, YOU CAN DISCUSS OBAMACARE.....

Postby Conor Dary » Mon Jul 02, 2012 2:14 pm

Thank goodness, the Armstrong thread got shut down. Hopefully that will be the end of that.
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Re: YES, YOU CAN DISCUSS OBAMACARE.....

Postby cullman » Mon Jul 02, 2012 4:49 pm

gh wrote:but not until Tuesday, and only on the FreeSpeech Forum, which will be opened for the July 4 holiday as always.

Uh, oh...RED ALERT...don't you mean Wednesday?

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Re: YES, YOU CAN DISCUSS OBAMACARE.....

Postby jeremyp » Mon Jul 02, 2012 6:48 pm

gh wrote:are you willing to risk finding out what will happen?

No your honor.
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Re: YES, YOU CAN DISCUSS OBAMACARE.....

Postby dukehjsteve » Tue Jul 03, 2012 3:26 pm

I seriously doubt if anyone out there on this forum cares about my opinion on the Affordable Healthcare Act ( yes that is the name, not Obamacare) and I don't care about any of your opinions either.

So can we PLEASE skip the political rhetoric, left or right, and discuss something else ??!!
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Re: YES, YOU CAN DISCUSS OBAMACARE.....

Postby Flumpy » Tue Jul 03, 2012 4:16 pm

You're missing the missing the point, it's 'FREE SPEECH DAY' we can discuss anything we want. :mrgreen:

Bring on the political rhetoric!!!
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Re: YES, YOU CAN DISCUSS OBAMACARE.....

Postby Conor Dary » Tue Jul 03, 2012 4:46 pm

dukehjsteve wrote:I seriously doubt if anyone out there on this forum cares about my opinion on the Affordable Healthcare Act ( yes that is the name, not Obamacare) and I don't care about any of your opinions either.

So can we PLEASE skip the political rhetoric, left or right, and discuss something else ??!!


Not me! I want to know why we are going to a Socialist Hell!
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Re: YES, YOU CAN DISCUSS OBAMACARE.....

Postby gm » Tue Jul 03, 2012 7:24 pm

Or, each of us could take the venomous energy used to craft opinions that no one else really gives a rat's about, and harness it into helping someone less fortunate tomorrow. That seems like a much better use of our personal resources.
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Re: YES, YOU CAN DISCUSS OBAMACARE.....

Postby Marlow » Tue Jul 03, 2012 7:35 pm

gm wrote:Or, each of us could take the venomous energy used to craft opinions that no one else really gives a rat's about, and harness it into helping someone less fortunate tomorrow. That seems like a much better use of our personal resources.

Or, as a minimum, discuss something we all agree on . . . like . . . oh, say . . . how great Track & Field is! :D
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Re: YES, YOU CAN DISCUSS OBAMACARE.....

Postby gh » Tue Jul 03, 2012 8:39 pm

Flumpy wrote:You're missing the missing the point, it's 'FREE SPEECH DAY' we can discuss anything we want. :mrgreen:

Bring on the political rhetoric!!!


just to clarify you may NOT discuss "anything you want"; as always, unfounded drug accusations and personal attacks remain way off limits.
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Re: YES, YOU CAN DISCUSS OBAMACARE.....

Postby JRM » Tue Jul 03, 2012 9:16 pm

My two cents (Canadian, of course, although without the penny, it'll have to be my Loonie opinion). Like the Metric system, socialized medicine works and provides for a stronger, healthier society. If it didn't, it wouldn't have been successfully adopted by many Western countries. But like the Metric system (and the dollar coin), socialized medicine has been demonized and illogically marred by the opposition as "un-American". Why? Because the word "socialism" is misunderstood, and oft improperly (and purposefully) conflated with "communism" -- a knee-jerk bristling relic of American history. Sadly, it's all about the rhetoric, and who can reach the most ears (i.e. advertising dollars). That's why SuperPACs could play an alarmingly significant role in the 2012 election.

But the bottom line is: a society cannot survive if the majority is not guaranteed and publicly-funded health service (or education, but that's a separate matter). The United States needs to end the war of words and appeal to reason before any progress can be made.
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Re: YES, YOU CAN DISCUSS OBAMACARE.....

Postby Daisy » Tue Jul 03, 2012 10:52 pm

Are the metric system and the dollar coin really regarded as unamerican? I've always viewed these standoffs as being due to a real fear or dislike of change. This might also explain the love affair with the 'Leave it to Beaver' world that many would prefer to go back to.
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Re: yes, you can discuss Obamacare

Postby mump boy » Wed Jul 04, 2012 7:08 am

What do those that oppose the Affordable Care Act propose in it's place ? or are they happy with millions of people having no or very limited health care ?
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Re: yes, you can discuss Obamacare

Postby Daisy » Wed Jul 04, 2012 7:15 am

mump boy wrote:What do those that oppose the Affordable Care Act propose in it's place ? or are they happy with millions of people having no or very limited health care ?

Again, it's fear of change mentality, this time fueled by the canards from GOP and their propaganda wing.
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Re: YES, YOU CAN DISCUSS OBAMACARE.....

Postby Conor Dary » Wed Jul 04, 2012 7:20 am

Daisy wrote:Are the metric system and the dollar coin really regarded as unamerican? I've always viewed these standoffs as being due to a real fear or dislike of change. This might also explain the love affair with the 'Leave it to Beaver' world that many would prefer to go back to.


The metric system and the dollar coin thing are two different problems. We do quite well with the imperial system. It works for 99% of the population. The dollar coin thing would work if we did what every other country that introduced a dollar coin. Get rid of dollar bills. Frankly, I can't believe the public would care that much except for the fact that Washington is on it. It would be a controversy for a couple of months and soon no one would care.
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Re: YES, YOU CAN DISCUSS OBAMACARE.....

Postby Daisy » Wed Jul 04, 2012 7:31 am

Conor Dary wrote:It would be a controversy for a couple of months and soon no one would care.

Exactly what happened in the UK. It was hilarious as people were refusing the pound coins and hoarding paper bills. But meanwhile the government were burning the pound notes as soon as they came out of circulation. Eventually you had to buckle. Unfortunately, no elected official in the US is willing to risk their re-election for this rather than do the right thing.

With regard to metric, there are still metric martyrs in the UK but they'll die off soon enough and then no one will have a clue about 'old money' and imperial. And everyone will wonder why beer glasses are called pints.
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Re: yes, you can discuss Obamacare

Postby jeremyp » Wed Jul 04, 2012 8:33 am

My 2 cents are: 1. We the U.S. are the only developed nation without a national health care system, and those that have it would not give it up, and for the most part like it. 2. Everybody agrees that health care needs to be affordable and available. 3. No-one agrees on how to do it.

The GOP has no plan to do anyhting.
The Dems have a plan that is seriously flawed, but, in my opinion, fixeable.

Ergo let's not throw out the baby with the bath water, let's work together to get something that works.

That means: Everybody will have to contribute. Everyone will have to sacrifice. Health insurers must be non profit. There must be a government option (single payor or medicare expansion).

Massachusetts has a plan like Obamacare. Let's hear from them.
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Re: yes, you can discuss Obamacare

Postby Conor Dary » Wed Jul 04, 2012 8:50 am

jeremyp wrote: No-one agrees on how to do it.


That is really not true. Obamacare is primarily made of Republican ideas, and for the most part is a copy of Romneycare. The mandate in particular is a Heritage Foundation idea.

The problem is the Republicans are against everything Obama wants to do.

http://www.examiner.com/article/mitch-m ... obama-2012
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Re: YES, YOU CAN DISCUSS OBAMACARE.....

Postby JRM » Wed Jul 04, 2012 10:26 am

Conor Dary wrote:The metric system and the dollar coin thing are two different problems. We do quite well with the imperial system. It works for 99% of the population.


Actually, this is exactly the point. "We" don't want to change because it works for "us". In reality, however, it doesn't work at all. It hurts the US. The US is a lone hold-out here, and the Imperial system is seen domestically as the "right" (read: American) way. It's a snub at the rest of the world. Furthermore, as I've argued before, it puts US students at a big disadvantage in the sciences. I can't count the number of times I've had kids in the lab converting 10 cm = 10,000 m. It's not only the measurement system, but also the orders of magnitude. The Imperial system does not necessitate this education.
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Re: yes, you can discuss Obamacare

Postby jeremyp » Wed Jul 04, 2012 10:28 am

Conor Dary wrote:
jeremyp wrote: No-one agrees on how to do it.


That is really not true. Obamacare is primarily made of Republican ideas, and for the most part is a copy of Romneycare. The mandate in particular is a Heritage Foundation idea.

The problem is the Republicans are against everything Obama wants to do.

http://www.examiner.com/article/mitch-m ... obama-2012


We're saying the same thin just differently. The main reason most developed nations have health care is due to their political system allowing the ruling party to enact laws, which when seen to be sensible are seldom appealed. The labour party crammed through the National health svc in the UK and the conservatives tweaked it but were loathe to kill it. In a parliamentary system the party gets to do it's thing. In a system such as ours of late gridlock is the problem. I'm glad Obama had enough votes to get health care passed, now we need to tweak it.
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Re: YES, YOU CAN DISCUSS OBAMACARE.....

Postby Conor Dary » Wed Jul 04, 2012 10:37 am

JRM wrote:
Conor Dary wrote:The metric system and the dollar coin thing are two different problems. We do quite well with the imperial system. It works for 99% of the population.


Actually, this is exactly the point. "We" don't want to change because it works for "us". In reality, however, it doesn't work at all. It hurts the US. The US is a lone hold-out here, and the Imperial system is seen domestically as the "right" (read: American) way. It's a snub at the rest of the world. Furthermore, as I've argued before, it puts US students at a big disadvantage in the sciences. I can't count the number of times I've had kids in the lab converting 10 cm = 10,000 m. It's not only the measurement system, but also the orders of magnitude. The Imperial system does not necessitate this education.


Being in mathematics you don't have to tell me that the metric is superior in many ways.

And as for being a 'snub to the rest of the world' I am afraid that is probably a big selling point these days.

But the reality is it does work for everyday living for most people. And until that changes I don't see things being much different.

As for putting American kids at a disadvantage in science education, well that is only part of it.
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Re: yes, you can discuss Obamacare

Postby TN1965 » Wed Jul 04, 2012 11:25 am

Conor Dary wrote:The problem is the Republicans are against everything Obama wants to do.


Then if Obama proposes to repleal the ACA, maybe the GOP will try to protect it. :mrgreen:

Seriously, the uninsured people are far less likely to vote than the insured people. And those who do, most of them vote for the Democrats. So the GOP knows they are not alienating many potential voters by not proposing any alternatives.

Things work just fine for people who vote for the Republicans.
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Re: yes, you can discuss Obamacare

Postby Flumpy » Wed Jul 04, 2012 11:34 am

Can someone in very general terms explain to those of us from outside of the USA what the problem is with the idea of somekind of affordable healthcare system?

The National Healthcare System of NHS as it's known in the UK is the countries most beloved institution. Woe betide and politicians that try and tamper with it. There is barely anyone on either side of the political divide that disagrees with it in principal.

In it's most basic form the population pays a bit more in tax and in return gets free healthcare for the rest of their lives? What's to dislike???

I'm sure there must be intelligent, rational people in the US who have well founded reasons for not supporting the idea, unfortunately all we ever hear about are the mentalists like.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IrnxA2sq ... _embedded#!
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Re: yes, you can discuss Obamacare

Postby Conor Dary » Wed Jul 04, 2012 11:48 am

Flumpy wrote:Can someone in very general terms explain to those of us from outside of the USA what the problem is with the idea of somekind of affordable healthcare system?


Well, if you haven't been paying attention, we are now moving to a more affordable healthcare system. We still have a way, but the Supreme Court finally letting ACA be the law of the land is a big start.
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Re: yes, you can discuss Obamacare

Postby kuha » Wed Jul 04, 2012 11:54 am

A good friend of mine just returned from a trip (partly on bike) thru Scotland. A week ago he was on a busy road, tried to get up on a sidewalk, but was thrown off the bike and pretty well got his face smashed up. Someone called an ambulance and he was off to a hospital. He wasn't fully with it, but remembers asking, sheepishly, 'About much, more or less, is this going to cost me?' The ambulance guy smiled and held up his hand, with thumb and first finger indicating 0. My friend was still bloody but began feeling a WHOLE lot better right then...

Our system up to 2009 was/is a national disgrace. The ACA certainly has flaws but is a rational and significant step toward something far better.
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Re: yes, you can discuss Obamacare

Postby Daisy » Wed Jul 04, 2012 11:57 am

kuha wrote: The ambulance guy smiled and held up his hand, with thumb and first finger indicating 0. My friend was still bloody but began feeling a WHOLE lot better right then...

It's outrageous that British tax payers have to bear the burden of your friends inability to jump a bike over the curb.

No wonder Britain is bankrupt. I think they should seriously consider banning all accident prone foreigners from entering the UK.
Last edited by Daisy on Wed Jul 04, 2012 12:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: yes, you can discuss Obamacare

Postby TN1965 » Wed Jul 04, 2012 12:01 pm

Flumpy wrote:Can someone in very general terms explain to those of us from outside of the USA what the problem is with the idea of somekind of affordable healthcare system?


Okay, I will try...

There are people who believe they should be without health insurance... young and healthy, and confident they will not need health care. They think individual mandate is violation of their freedom.

Among those who already have good insurance through their employers, some believe more people having access to health care means more waiting time at hospitals. They also think their hard earned privilege is diluted by those "lazy" people who don't deserve it.

Then there are also those who believe it will raise the cost for small business owners. I could understand this argument if there were employer mandate. But how does individual mandate raise the cost for employers? I don't know.
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Re: yes, you can discuss Obamacare

Postby kuha » Wed Jul 04, 2012 12:13 pm

TN1965 wrote:There are people who believe they should be without health insurance... young and healthy, and confident they will not need health care. They think individual mandate is violation of their freedom.

Among those who already have good insurance through their employers, some believe more people having access to health care means more waiting time at hospitals. They also think their hard earned privilege is diluted by those "lazy" people who don't deserve it.



1) To be fair, I doubt many "believe that they should be without" it; they simply feel that they either can't afford it or are willing to roll the dice that they won't need it. The "freedom" thing has always seemed like the phoniest issue of all time. I don't have the "freedom" to throw a jury summons in the rubbish; or to drive without a license; etc., etc. True freedom isn't a 13-year old's adolescent fantasy of "just leave me alone"; it's a genuine balance of rights and responsibilities, together.

2) The truth is that nearly everyone has "access to health care"--if you're talking about emergency room visits, etc. The problem is that the conscientious people end up paying the bill for themselves AND for the deadbeats and freeloaders. Are "we" willing, as a society to say that someone should be left to suffer/die on the sidewalk rather than be admitted to an ER without insurance? Seriously, are we? If we're NOT willing to say that, we're acknowledging the fact of some sort of communal responsibility and standards--which very easily make a "mandate" justifiable...on every level.
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Re: yes, you can discuss Obamacare

Postby TN1965 » Wed Jul 04, 2012 12:30 pm

kuha wrote:Are "we" willing, as a society to say that someone should be left to suffer/die on the sidewalk rather than be admitted to an ER without insurance?


Did you see that GOP debate in which CNN's Wolf Blitzer asked this question? Someone in the audience shouted "yeah, let them die!" and there was huge applause. :shock:

None of the candidates openly agreed, but apparently many GOP voters do.
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Re: yes, you can discuss Obamacare

Postby Flumpy » Wed Jul 04, 2012 12:36 pm

Conor Dary wrote:
Flumpy wrote:Can someone in very general terms explain to those of us from outside of the USA what the problem is with the idea of somekind of affordable healthcare system?


Well, if you haven't been paying attention, we are now moving to a more affordable healthcare system. We still have a way, but the Supreme Court finally letting ACA be the law of the land is a big start.


Of course but there are still many people who are vehemently against it despite having no coherent or rational reason for being so. Presumably not all of these are mentally unhinged so I was wondering what the sensible counter argument was?
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Re: yes, you can discuss Obamacare

Postby kuha » Wed Jul 04, 2012 12:38 pm

TN1965 wrote:
kuha wrote:Are "we" willing, as a society to say that someone should be left to suffer/die on the sidewalk rather than be admitted to an ER without insurance?


Did you see that GOP debate in which CNN's Wolf Blitzer asked this question? Someone in the audience shouted "yeah, let them die!" and there was huge applause. :shock:

None of the candidates openly agreed, but apparently many GOP voters do.


Yes, I did see that. And was properly appalled. The question is: should that radical viewpoint (let's be honest, there's nothing "conservative" about that view) be taken as a social norm or standard? Only other radicals would say "yes" and the US is not a radical country.
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