¶2012OT mHJ—Jamie Nieto 7-5¾ (2.28)

[LopenUupunut]

Ask Stones if it ever rains in the Olympics!

Where is that squeegee?

Not just the Olympics... Stones had the qualification stopped with 17 athletes left at Helsinki '83

[marknhj]

They've all competed in dodgy conditions before; the Trials is no place to practice.

My view is that it's not "practicing", it's "eliminating". You can't deal with cold and wet weather, we're not taking you to London over someone else who can.

So you're in favour of eliminating the best athletes because their technique does not work well in pissing down rain and then it's just unfortunate if the Olympic Final is held in perfect weather?

(of course I realise there's no solution with the first three system, the results will be impacted by the weather. I simply don't buy into the positive spin attempts. The weather can make it a lottery).

[Marlow]

It now occurs to me that my team selection change entreaties have been answered. In this event, the favorite qualed depite finishing 4th. In the Jav, the 3-4-5 guys go. The 1-2-3 Commandment is broken! Viva la A-standard!!!

[preston]

I find it hilarious that some of the same people defending the rain in Eugene are the same ones who want to eliminate events from ever being held outside of the Pacific NW because of possible heat anywhere else. When you consider how few medallists come from the distances versus the field/sprints its a wonder that the distance runners concerns are given any merit at all.

[gh]

For me the perfect site (in terms of providing best conditions for all event groupings) would probably be Sacramento. Scorching hot for the sprinters in the daytime (without accompanying oppressive humidity), and the sea breezes cool things enough for the distance races after dark.

Of course, they no longer have a suitable facility (and some might argue they never did), so that horse has left the barn.

[Per Andersen]

So you're in favour of eliminating the best athletes because their technique does not work well in pissing down rain and then it's just unfortunate if the Olympic Final is held in perfect weather?

(of course I realise there's no solution with the first three system, the results will be impacted by the weather. I simply don't buy into the positive spin attempts. The weather can make it a lottery).

Yes! Like Sydney 2000 and Berlin 2009. It becomes a crapshoot. You don't practice to be a better rain jumper. You try to deal with it when you have to.

[proofs in the pudd'in]

Is it me or does JW look like he could be a deca man?

If he lost some upper body weight he could go 5cm higher me thinks?

[jhc68]

mark, per, and bowie are 100% right, and i'd go one further:
Not only team selection but Olympic competition in ANY event ought to be held in ideal conditions. In the 21st century there is no reason to conduct any Oly or World level competition in weather conditions that skew the results. At a time when finish places and false starts are determined by 1/1,000th of a second we tell elite field event athletes to just go cope with whatever conditions you might find.

All high jumpers have had to deal with high winds, cramped approach situations where you have to dodge runners on the track to find your start-point, take-off areas that are slippery from rain or torn-up-ragged or not level or gooey from heat or so hard that spikes don't penetrate effectively. And we all know that, as others have pointed out, these factors make the competition a crapshoot, a game of chance rather than a true championship.

You might argue that these are variables an athlete has to learn to deal with, but, again, why should that be true at the highest levels of the sport? It's a throw-back mentality. We might as well insist that sprinters learn to dig foot holes on cinder tracks just in case, or that high jumpers adjust their technique to land in sawdust or sand pits because, well just because the promoters don't give a damn about the results. Gymnasts and swimmers and divers and most other event-specific sports gave up competing out in the elements decades ago.

[Marlow]

Is it me or does JW look like he could be a deca man?
If he lost some upper body weight he could go 5cm higher me thinks?

Yeah, cuz 6', 155 pounds is pretty intimidating out there in the SP ring! If he lost any weight, he'd disappear!

[proofs in the pudd'in]

Is it me or does JW look like he could be a deca man?
If he lost some upper body weight he could go 5cm higher me thinks?

Yeah, cuz 6', 155 pounds is pretty intimidating out there in the SP ring! If he lost any weight, he'd disappear!

He has gotta weigh more than 155 - c'mon. If that is true then he looks way bigger on screen than in person. I thought he weighed about 180. He looks tall and somewhat muscular and seems bigger than the other jumpers, maybe that is it, but I am 165 5'11" and for some reason he looked bigger than me - and those other jumpers must be about 135 .

So, I guess it is just me. Still 155 no way! you are reading old stats man

[gh]

My first reaction on the initial closeup I saw on the video board was that he has indeed bulked up some from what i remember. Seemed particularly broader in the shoulders.

[marknhj]

Is it me or does JW look like he could be a deca man?
If he lost some upper body weight he could go 5cm higher me thinks?

Yeah, cuz 6', 155 pounds is pretty intimidating out there in the SP ring! If he lost any weight, he'd disappear!

A May tweet from the man himself: "Why does everyone has (sic) me listed at 67kg (148lbs) I am 81kg (179lbs) that's an insult".

[proofs in the pudd'in]

Is it me or does JW look like he could be a deca man?
If he lost some upper body weight he could go 5cm higher me thinks?

Yeah, cuz 6', 155 pounds is pretty intimidating out there in the SP ring! If he lost any weight, he'd disappear!

A May tweet from the man himself: "Why does everyone has (sic) me listed at 67kg (148lbs) I am 81kg (179lbs) that's an insult".

Looks like I had it about right - 180 lbs. Man I am good and humble Now what the heck is his real height?

[marknhj]

You might argue that these are variables an athlete has to learn to deal with, but, again, why should that be true at the highest levels of the sport? It's a throw-back mentality. We might as well insist that sprinters learn to dig foot holes on cinder tracks just in case, or that high jumpers adjust their technique to land in sawdust or sand pits because, well just because the promoters don't give a damn about the results. Gymnasts and swimmers and divers and most other event-specific sports gave up competing out in the elements decades ago.

I'm not sure I've ever seen a set up like the one in Eugene. I've been wondering, how wide are the areas (from upright to the edge of the "fan")? It seems a bizarre design that could possibly impact some jumpers, I imagine.

And Joe is right, I really don't think enough consideration has ever been given to how even a tiny variable can effect jumpers, especially as speed is paramount and fractions of an inch per step variations in an approach can cumulatively result in failure. In one quite major competition my fourth step out from take-off landed on the edge of the plug thing they used to stick in pole vault boxes. Guess how I did? Transitioning off grass (especially damp grass) was another issue and jumping on a wet fan was sometimes almost impossible (in the context of getting within 5-10cms of your expectations). I'm mainly talking about the US, I don't remember quite so many varied areas in Europe.

[gh]

I don't know what the measure is on the apron, but it is an IAAF-certified layout of the highest level (or it wo uldn't be allowed to stage the Diamond League meets).

[Marlow]

I am 81kg (179lbs) that's an insult".

The Register-Guard described him as 6'/155.

[Per Andersen]

I am 81kg (179lbs) that's an insult".

The Register-Guard described him as 6'/155.

155 almost makes him a welterweight. No way does he look like that, being 6'.

If he says he's 179 I tend to believe it.

[marknhj]

I don't know what the measure is on the apron, but it is an IAAF-certified layout of the highest level (or it wo uldn't be allowed to stage the Diamond League meets).

Dug around a bit and to my surprise there isn't a specification related to width of the apron, only length, from both the IAAF and USATF for the highest level competitions (20m). That pretty much automatically consigns some to the grass and doesn't allow for wider than normal approaches in set-ups like Eugene. I doubt if this impacts that many athletes, but I do think tracks should be designed allowing "fairness" to all disciplines.

And hjsteve - sorry, but there won't be a straddle resurgence coming out of Oregon anytime soon!

[berkeley]

Is it me or does JW look like he could be a deca man?
If he lost some upper body weight he could go 5cm higher me thinks?

Yeah, cuz 6', 155 pounds is pretty intimidating out there in the SP ring! If he lost any weight, he'd disappear!

A May tweet from the man himself: "Why does everyone has (sic) me listed at 67kg (148lbs) I am 81kg (179lbs) that's an insult".

Of course JW's own statement must be believed, but I'm a bit worried at that thrower's ethos. Why would a high jumper be insulted to be listed at a lighter weight ? 81 kg is pretty heavy for a 6 foot high jumper. Ukhov is listed at 6'4" and 83 kg, and he's a former discus thrower. Theoretically, body weight scales as the cube of height. If you interpolate the weight of 6'4" Ukhov, who is heavy for a high jumper, to a height of 6'0", you get 70.57 kg = 155 lb. In other words, if JW had a similar build to Ukhov, he should weigh 155.

On another note, I met Jesse at the 2011 Pre, and he seemed a little taller than 6 feet to me. I would have guessed 6-2. The IAAF site has him at 1.84m (6' 0.5").

[berkeley]

Is it me or does JW look like he could be a deca man?
If he lost some upper body weight he could go 5cm higher me thinks?

Yeah, cuz 6', 155 pounds is pretty intimidating out there in the SP ring! If he lost any weight, he'd disappear!

A May tweet from the man himself: "Why does everyone has (sic) me listed at 67kg (148lbs) I am 81kg (179lbs) that's an insult".

Of course JW's own statement must be believed, but I'm a bit worried at that thrower's ethos. Why would a high jumper be insulted to be listed at a lighter weight ? 81 kg is pretty heavy for a 6 foot high jumper. Ukhov is listed at 6'4" and 83 kg, and he's a former discus thrower. Theoretically, body weight scales as the cube of height. If you interpolate the weight of 6'4" Ukhov, who is heavy for a high jumper, to a height of 6'0", you get 70.57 kg = 155 lb. In other words, if JW had a similar build to Ukhov, he should weigh 155.

On another note, I met Jesse at the 2011 Pre, and he seemed a little taller than 6 feet to me. I would have guessed 6-2. The IAAF site has him at 1.84m (6' 0.5").

Williams is listed at 165 in last year's T&FN world rankings. Of the other 10 ranked jumpers, only Ukhov (6'4"/183), Silnov (6'6"/183) and Baba (6'5"/181) are heavier than 179.

[berkeley]

mark, per, and bowie are 100% right,

Actually I think Per is disagreeing with Mark and bowie on this, and I'm with Per, for the following reasons:
1. I didn't notice any straddlers out there, so all the jumpers were dealing with the same constraints.
2. London is quite likely to be wet.
3. If an athlete is used to cool/wet conditions, might he not be equally at a disadvantage if the trials were held in Sacramento in 100 degree heat ?
IMO, Stones psyched himself out in Montreal. It's the mark of a great athlete to be able to overcome adverse conditions, and JW passed that test. I totally understand that high jumping off a wet surface is very difficult and introduces an element of risk and uncertainty on each jump. So does a strong wind in the high hurdles or javelin. I grew up in Ireland and have jumped off very wet muddy grass.

[Per Andersen]

I see no disagreement but where does this Straddle stuff come from?

Stones's main problem in Montreal was that his run-up was more speed oriented than the run-up of the other 2 medal winners.

World class HJers usually don't jump a hell of a lot in practice but when they work on details in, say, the run-up they don't pick a rain soaked track when everything feels different and less stable.

Some jumperes feel more confident in wet conditons than others. Nieto, for example, has said that he is a decent rain jumper. Notice the word DECENT.

Williams uses a sharper curve than Nieto and that might be an issue in wet conditions.

The bottom line is that rain can ruin a HJ competition. In Sydney when Klyugin had cleared 2.35 the sky opened up and nobody else cleared a bar , not even close. It was by then impossible.

[berkeley]

I see no disagreement but where does this Straddle stuff come from?

Stones's main problem in Montreal was that his run-up was more speed oriented than the run-up of the other 2 medal winners.

World class HJers usually don't jump a hell of a lot in practice but when they work on details in, say, the run-up they don't pick a rain soaked track when everything feels different and less stable.

Some jumperes feel more confident in wet conditons than others. Nieto, for example, has said that he is a decent rain jumper. Notice the word DECENT.

Williams uses a sharper curve than Nieto and that might be an issue in wet conditions.

The bottom line is that rain can ruin a HJ competition. In Sydney when Klyugin had cleared 2.35 the sky opened up and nobody else cleared a bar , not even close. It was by then impossible.

My mention of the straddle was just to point out that since all the jumpers were floppers, they all faced similar difficulties. Of course some floppers do use more speed or have a sharper turn than others, and it's a good point about Sydney, Klyugin was lucky there because the timing of the rain gave him an advantage. However, I would argue that jumpers should try to practise in different conditions rather than avoiding them, if they want to be a factor at major championships regardless of conditions. Nieto is probably decent in wet conditions because he tries to be, not because he has the rain gene.

[marknhj]

However, I would argue that jumpers should try to practise in different conditions rather than avoiding them, if they want to be a factor at major championships regardless of conditions. Nieto is probably decent in wet conditions because he tries to be, not because he has the rain gene.

I understand your point, but per is right, as usual. Jumpers don't actually high jump that much in training and when they are doing technical sessions the whole point of the session is to optimise technique. That is not possible when practicing in the rain because compromises have to be made. However, you're probably right in that when preparing for a major championship where rain is a distinct possibility it would be sensible to at least do some jumping sessions in wet conditions. But they wouldn't be technical sessions per se. You most certainly would not want to dedicate a significant number of normal technical sessions to days of inclement weather just in case...

Beyond speed/curve tightness factors, I don't think there's anything definitive about making a rain jumper. Some can adapt to a limited extent. Some can't. I hated jumping in the rain and I learned to HJ on a very poor cinders track in West London.

[odelltrclan]

To someone who is really naive on the subject (I guess) why do the wet conditions seem to be such a big deal. These athletes have spikes I would presume and I have personally tried wearing high jump spikes (back in the 1980s) that would seem to me to provide stable footing under any conditions. Should an athlete be able to compensate for whatever conditions there are by having multiple pair of footwear available?

[berkeley]

However, I would argue that jumpers should try to practise in different conditions rather than avoiding them, if they want to be a factor at major championships regardless of conditions. Nieto is probably decent in wet conditions because he tries to be, not because he has the rain gene.

Beyond speed/curve tightness factors, I don't think there's anything definitive about making a rain jumper. Some can adapt to a limited extent. Some can't. I hated jumping in the rain and I learned to HJ on a very poor cinders track in West London.

Do you think there is a psychological factor - that a jumper can either succumb to the notion that he can't perform even as well as his competitors can in the rain, or try to convince himself that even though he will not jump as well as in dry conditions, he can still deal with it better than the others ?
In Montreal, Stones made a big deal about the fact that he suffered much more than others because his approach was so fast, but I'm not convinced it was much faster than Wszola's. Comparing http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EUMo-4zUvLc with http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o2HtJU5w1UY, it looks like Stones' cadence is a little faster, but his strides are perhaps shorter. Their speed doesn't look very different. I know the Stones clip is from 1984, he may have slowed his approach a little by then.
I think that by Montreal, right after setting a WR a couple of weeks earlier, Stones had developed an over-confident attitude that he would win easily assuming the conditions suited him, and that one of his main weapons was a much faster approach than anyone else's (a point I heard him repeat many times). In fact, I think other world class jumpers, for example Paklin, had faster approaches. Just my humble opinion ...

[marknhj]

berkeley - yes, without any doubt whatsoever. It plays with your head.

But I wish I had a picture of me lying on the track after I aquaplaned and crashed into the pit during warm ups of a GB vs. Sweden meet in a torrential rainstorm. Only time I've ever seen it happen (although, "seen" could be the wrong word) but it resulted in the competition being postponed until the next day (when I saw Sjoberg competing for the first time and decided the then 17yo would one day be the WR holder).

[berkeley]

berkeley - yes, without any doubt whatsoever. It plays with your head.

But I wish I had a picture of me lying on the track after I aquaplaned and crashed into the pit during warm ups of a GB vs. Sweden meet in a torrential rainstorm. Only time I've ever seen it happen (although, "seen" could be the wrong word) but it resulted in the competition being postponed until the next day (when I saw Sjoberg competing for the first time and decided the then 17yo would one day be the WR holder).

Ouch. We are in agreement that a wet surface is a bad thing. Maybe you should be glad that no-one took a picture I was not so lucky when I fell over the last hurdle while leading in our national college 110H, which was run into what seemed like a hurricane force wind. That photo made it into the local newspaper.