¶2012OT w100—Carmelita Jeter 10.92

[DrGo]

Felix should bow out. She's not a serious contender in the 100 in London anyway. She would be a longshot to medal. It will just tire her out for the 200.

[deortman]

A NYT article on this quoted someone as saying that when there is a tie in a field event you drop down to the previous best mark or height clearance and that there is no counterpart in the running events.

Not entirely true.

Felix and Tarmoh both ran 100m prelims and semis:

Pre Semi
F 11.19 11.23
T 11.16 11.10

Clearly Tarmoh beat Felix's time in both the Prelims and in the Semis (although not running against each other). Taking into account the pre and semi times seems just as fair as awarding first place to the guy who high jumps cleanly through 2.4m with three misses at the next height over the guy who also jumps 2.4 with three misses at the next height but had a single lower height miss.

So you could have three options: a runoff, coin toss, or use the above approach.

- David E. Ortman (M59) Seattle, WA

[18.99s]

A NYT article on this quoted someone as saying that when there is a tie in a field event you drop down to the previous best mark or height clearance and that there is no counterpart in the running events.

Not entirely true.

Felix and Tarmoh both ran 100m prelims and semis:

Pre Semi
F 11.19 11.23
T 11.16 11.10

Clearly Tarmoh beat Felix's time in both the Prelims and in the Semis (although not running against each other). Taking into account the pre and semi times seems just as fair as awarding first place to the guy who high jumps cleanly through 2.4m with three misses at the next height over the guy who also jumps 2.4 with three misses at the next height but had a single lower height miss.

That's fine if they know that's the rule before the meet starts, so they can expend effort accordingly during the rounds if they feel they might need a tiebreaker. It's unfair to impose that rule after the races have been run.

[preston]

A NYT article on this quoted someone as saying that when there is a tie in a field event you drop down to the previous best mark or height clearance and that there is no counterpart in the running events.

Not entirely true.

Felix and Tarmoh both ran 100m prelims and semis:

Pre Semi
F 11.19 11.23
T 11.16 11.10

Clearly Tarmoh beat Felix's time in both the Prelims and in the Semis (although not running against each other). Taking into account the pre and semi times seems just as fair as awarding first place to the guy who high jumps cleanly through 2.4m with three misses at the next height over the guy who also jumps 2.4 with three misses at the next height but had a single lower height miss.

That's fine if they know that's the rule before the meet starts, so they can expend effort accordingly during the rounds if they feel they might need a tiebreaker. It's unfair to impose that rule after the races have been run.

Actually, preliminary and semi-final times should NEVER be used - even if the rules are stated beforehand. The reason why is that those marks do NOT count towards a final result - UNLIKE IN A FIELD EVENT. You guys need to remember that you can WIN a field event on any one of SIX attempts; it's not like you get 5 practice throws with only your final sixth jump/throw being valid. It doesn't work like that. But, that IS how it works on the track. If you set the WR in the semi-final you still have to win the final.

This sport has ALWAYS been about how you finish, not how you start.

[CookyMonzta]

The team must be chosen by the end of the weekend...

The point being made by many is that it is totally unnecessary for the entire team to be finalized by the end of this weekend. Again, I ask, what is the IOC/IAAF deadline for the U.S. to submit its entire roster? And if someone withdraws from the team for any reason, including injury, what then? That precedent, prompting a replacement, most certainly correlates with the precedent that would be set if the runoff were to be held a week after the Trials, be it in a European meet or in a single race right here in the U.S. Once again, they have neither a reason nor an excuse to schedule the runoff outside the Trials schedule; none whatsoever.

What if there's a dead heat for 3rd in the 5,000 or the 10,000?? They are NOT going to have a runoff on the final night of the Trials in either event! Certainly, I doubt they would hastily demand a runoff in the m200 (the last event) if that 3rd spot should end up a dead-heat. If they dare try, in the 200 or the 5K/10K, then I would be convinced that the TV execs are clearly pulling USATF's strings. It would be a disgrace to see 2 people, probably dead-tired from having run one or both long-distance events, running another 12½ or 25 laps. It would be a pathetic tragedy if one of them collapses.

They'd better have a nice, long conference call after the Trials to sit down and think things over before they come up with a far more constructive solution to put in the rule book, before someone takes them to court next time. You don't make up rules on the fly, and you certainly don't let outsiders (especially TV networks) influence your decisions, which only serve to shatter the credibility of the governing body even more.

[Dutra5]

I might be wrong but I thought Ms. Geer wanted the situation settled in terms of indentifying how the tie would be broken by the end of the trials rather than actually breaking the tie by the end of next weekend.

The team must be chosen by the end of the weekend...

Both Ms. Felix and Ms. Tarmoh are on the team.

[ATK]

I might be wrong but I thought Ms. Geer wanted the situation settled in terms of indentifying how the tie would be broken by the end of the trials rather than actually breaking the tie by the end of next weekend.

The team must be chosen by the end of the weekend...

Both Ms. Felix and Ms. Tarmoh are on the team.

The actual 100m team member and the alternate must be determined...

[jazzcyclist]

and you certainly don't let outsiders (especially TV networks) influence your decisions, which only serve to shatter the credibility of the governing body even more.

It's too late for that. TV already pulls the strings of practically every major and minor sport in America. Do you have any idea how many rules changes have been made in the NFL, the NBA, MLB and the NHL to satisfy TV demands? Also, do you remember in 2008, the Olympic swimming scheduled was changed to satisfy American TV viewers?

[CookyMonzta]

I might be wrong but I thought Ms. Geer wanted the situation settled in terms of indentifying how the tie would be broken by the end of the trials rather than actually breaking the tie by the end of next weekend.

The team must be chosen by the end of the weekend...

Both Ms. Felix and Ms. Tarmoh are on the team.

True, but they have not explained why the runoff must be done the day after the 200 finals, when they could reschedule it at least 3 days later to allow them to recuperate. I am pretty sure the IOC/IAAF deadline for all countries (including the U.S.) to submit their final rosters is well after July 1. So, there's no excuse.

[Dutra5]

For those interested...here is the IAAF qualification PDF.

Entries close July 9. That includes up to 3 per country plus a reserve athlete (alternate). The reserve can replace one of the entered athletes up to final confirmation for the specific event.

http://www.iaaf.org/mm/Document/Statist ... _23249.pdf

[Dutra5]

I might be wrong but I thought Ms. Geer wanted the situation settled in terms of indentifying how the tie would be broken by the end of the trials rather than actually breaking the tie by the end of next weekend.

The team must be chosen by the end of the weekend...

Both Ms. Felix and Ms. Tarmoh are on the team.

True, but they have not explained why the runoff must be done the day after the 200 finals, when they could reschedule it at least 3 days later to allow them to recuperate. I am pretty sure the IOC/IAAF deadline for all countries (including the U.S.) to submit their final rosters is well after July 1. So, there's no excuse.

You'll get no argument from me. As I just posted entries close July 9th however both women would be on the roster anyway.

[Dutra5]

I might be wrong but I thought Ms. Geer wanted the situation settled in terms of indentifying how the tie would be broken by the end of the trials rather than actually breaking the tie by the end of next weekend.

The team must be chosen by the end of the weekend...

Both Ms. Felix and Ms. Tarmoh are on the team.

The actual 100m team member and the alternate must be determined...

Go out back on the track they train on prior to July 9th and have at it.

[CookyMonzta]

For those interested...here is the IAAF qualification PDF.

Entries close July 9. That includes up to 3 per country plus a reserve athlete (alternate). The reserve can replace one of the entered athletes up to final confirmation for the specific event.

http://www.iaaf.org/mm/Document/Statist ... _23249.pdf

Most excellent! Thank you.

Pick a meet, any meet, held between July 4 and July 8, in Eugene or anywhere else in the U.S., and schedule the runoff in that meet. They have the second-half of the week after the Trials. What's their excuse not to consider it?

[ATK]

I can imagining USATF will just flip a coin, they seem very solid on their original rule that the team for each even will be determined after the event ends. AKA the entire team will be chosen by the end of Sunday.

[CookyMonzta]

and you certainly don't let outsiders (especially TV networks) influence your decisions, which only serve to shatter the credibility of the governing body even more.

It's too late for that. TV already pulls the strings of practically every major and minor sport in America. Do you have any idea how many rules changes have been made in the NFL, the NBA, MLB and the NHL to satisfy TV demands? Also, do you remember in 2008, the Olympic swimming scheduled was changed to satisfy American TV viewers?

The swimming schedule change, if we're lucky, will be the last time that ever happens. I doubt the Russians in Sochi will submit to scheduling an event at 4:00 in the morning (8:00 P.M. NYC time, 5:00 P.M, L.A. time) to satisfy the NBC fat cats.

[CookyMonzta]

I can imagining USATF will just flip a coin, they seem very solid on their original rule that the team for each even will be determined after the event ends. AKA the entire team will be chosen by the end of Sunday.

The physical health of the athlete must take top priority over anything. If both come up with a cramp or a slight tear (or any other compromising ailment) after the 200, and neither one accepts a coin toss for the final spot (which I imagine will happen, because all matters should be settled on the track), then the USATF, under pain of litigation, will accept the possibility of a match race at a later date, before the IAAF deadline on July 9.

[ATK]

I can imagining USATF will just flip a coin, they seem very solid on their original rule that the team for each even will be determined after the event ends. AKA the entire team will be chosen by the end of Sunday.

The physical health of the athlete must take top priority over anything. If both come up with a cramp or a slight tear (or any other compromising ailment) after the 200, and neither one accepts a coin toss for the final spot (which I imagine will happen, because all matters should be settled on the track), then the USATF, under pain of litigation, will accept the possibility of a match race at a later date, before the IAAF deadline on July 9.

I feel like they will just flip a coin.

[CookyMonzta]

I feel like they will just flip a coin.

There will be no coin toss! That is how you start a one-on-one competition (like the Super Bowl and the American Idol championship), not how you finish one!

Unfortunately, the USATF were in a rush to settle a situation instead of think it through, which they had plenty of time to do after the Trials. I doubt the hastily-thought-out rule will stand in the same form by next year. Coin toss? Why not have them play chess to settle the matter?

[ATK]

I feel like they will just flip a coin.

There will be no coin toss! That is how you start a one-on-one competition (like the Super Bowl and the American Idol championship), not how you finish one!

Unfortunately, the USATF were in a rush to settle a situation instead of think it through, which they had plenty of time to do after the Trials. I doubt the hastily-thought-out rule will stand in the same form by next year. Coin toss? Why not have them play chess to settle the matter?

Im not saying they should. But I feel like they just will to rush the decision.

The thought of a coin toss will be embarrassing for our sport. Imagine the commentators explaining on TV how either Tarmoh or Jeter made it to the Olympics. Casual watchers would laugh at the thought of flip of a coin getting some one to the largest meet in the sports world. If one of them wins a medal in the 100, I think it would be even worse for T&F's image.

[CookyMonzta]

My apologies. I thought you were actually clamoring for a coin toss. If they should both cramp up after the 200, and they are still too cramped to risk injury for a runoff on Sunday, and they refuse to entertain the idea of helping the sport jump the shark--no, megalodon, by tossing a coin, what will USATF do? Flip a coin without their consent?

If this scenario should come to pass, and the coin toss has yet to take place, Bob Kersee should hold a wildcat press conference to explain why Allyson and Jeneba refuse to participate in a coin toss, and why they would rather let it be settled on the track (like it should be), and hold the runoff at a later date, within the time frame for the IAAF deadline on July 9.

If some backroom TV exec screams to high heaven behind closed doors, and demands that it be settled during the Trials' TV schedule, I hope someone has the guts to tell him to go to hell! And if they threaten never to televise the Trials again, screw them. NBC's loss and ESPN's gain.

[lonewolf]

[If this scenario should come to pass, and the coin toss has yet to take place, Bob Kersee should hold a wildcat press conference to explain why Allyson and Jeneba refuse to participate in a coin toss, and why they would rather let it be settled on the track (like it should be), and hold the runoff at a later date, within the time frame for the IAAF deadline on July 9.

Yep.. anything to avoid a coin toss..

[gwwayne]

Trackonthebrain--your questions may have been answered already. But, if they haven't this may explain things (shown on page 8 on the thread)

First--the frame rate was disclosed to be 3000 frames per second. That is pretty fast. I have timed over 100 meets with a lynx since year 2000, and my camera has a max of 1000 frames per second. The picture in the press releases is very clear, no doubts about the results.

Second--the camera takes a picture only of the finish line and splices them together at the frame rate. So, it should look like a white track with black lane lines. Go to a track, look at the finish line--you will see black squares at the intersections of lane lines and finish lines. the camera was perfectly aligned and the results were crystal clear. On a side note, the old accutrack photos worked the same way.

Third--By rule, the meet has to have Lynx cameras on both sides of the track. The outside camera was predetermined to be the "primary" and the inside camera the "back-up" and by rule both systems are to be conducted indpendently of each other (start signal, power supply, crew, etc.). The primary camera is hooked up to the scoreboard. In various press releases and news articles--the lynx crew had difficulty in reading the primary picture due to runners in adjacent lanes blocking the picture of the runners. This is more common than you think. The lynx crew initially thought lane 1 had a slight lead over lane 2 and that got posted on the scoreboard. But, after the meet referee and others looked at all the pictures from both sides of the track, it was clear it was a dead heat.

Fourth--if there was any error in judgment on the lynx crew, they probably should have waited before hitting the "CTRL" and "S" key to send the results to the scoreboard and waited until the meet referee ruled on the picture (it should have only been a 2-3 minute delay).

[CookyMonzta]

It would help if they used the most powerful technology out there. Not only is there the electron microscope, but there are cameras capable of taking pictures at more than 10,000, or even a million, frames a second.

Which brings me back to 1984. How exactly did they decide the last 2 spots on that w100H team, which threw Stephanie Hightower under the bus? Were they able to separate the 3 in the photo, or did they have a backroom round-robin coin toss (with or without the consent of Hightower, Benita Fitzgerald and Pam Page), where Stephanie lost against the other 2?

[shivfan]

And one other thing: If they are both running the 200, what if both of them get hurt, fail to finish, and they both say NO to the coin-flip for the final 100 spot? No spot should be decided on anything resembling a rock-paper-scissors farce.

This must be settled in a race on the European circuit. St. Denis (July 6), London (July 13-14), or Monaco (July 20), or all 3 in a best-2-of-3. The coin flip is totally absurd, and they can't afford to injure themselves immediately before or after the 200 rounds. If I must say so, they should settle it at the Aviva meet in London. That is the Olympic city, no?

It would be nice if they did that, since I have tickets to go to Crystal Palace....

Again, if the roles were reversed, this wouldn't be happening. Felix would've been awarded the place - end of story. This soap opera is only happening, because it looks like Felix may just have been edged out of third place.

[CookyMonzta]

And one other thing: If they are both running the 200, what if both of them get hurt, fail to finish, and they both say NO to the coin-flip for the final 100 spot? No spot should be decided on anything resembling a rock-paper-scissors farce.

This must be settled in a race on the European circuit. St. Denis (July 6), London (July 13-14), or Monaco (July 20), or all 3 in a best-2-of-3. The coin flip is totally absurd, and they can't afford to injure themselves immediately before or after the 200 rounds. If I must say so, they should settle it at the Aviva meet in London. That is the Olympic city, no?

It would be nice if they did that, since I have tickets to go to Crystal Palace....

Again, if the roles were reversed, this wouldn't be happening. Felix would've been awarded the place - end of story. This soap opera is only happening, because it looks like Felix may just have been edged out of third place.

And if the runoff should be held, and Jeneba beats Allyson by .01 or even .005, how are they going to spin or manipulate that result? I doubt they will be able to, because a gap of .005 in an 11-second race amounts to 4.5cm (1¾ inches), a gap which can be seen in an instant replay freeze-frame, let alone through the average high-school microscope to the photo.

[Gabriella]

A coin toss might not be ideal, but it may actually be the only realistic way the decision can be made. Trying to get both athletes into a race in Europe may be easy in that it would be great promotion for the meet, deciding the outcome of the US trials, but in reality how would this fit into the athletes training plans? Bobby will have the next few weeks worked out, to have to go over to Europe before they'd planned, lose training days etc, could have a detrimental effect on their Olympics.
A race in the USA is preferable. It's just about the timing of the race. And does it even have to be at an official meet, can it not be at a specifically staged run-off 'behind closed doors' with the relevant officials and timing devices? To make it a media event would be a mistake and would surely favour Felix who is more experienced.

But on the coin toos, why not? Coin tossing has been used in sport for years, particularly in some of the traditional British sports such as soccer and cricket. More importantly it is used for things of far greater importance today, such as determining the outcome of political elections in a dead heat situation.

I must say, I do slightly agree with shivfan as well.

[Blues]

Again, if the roles were reversed, this wouldn't be happening. Felix would've been awarded the place - end of story. This soap opera is only happening, because it looks like Felix may just have been edged out of third place.

From enlarging the finish photo I'm among those who feel that a tiny right portion of Tarmoh's bib may very well be ahead of Felix. If that's the case, then possibly the officials didn't feel it was flush with her torso, but I believe that Tarmoh probably beat Felix by the tiniest of margins.

What not too many have discussed are the financial aspects of this whole thing, since the two agents seem to have been given significant say in the matter. Obviously a lot will ride on what happens in the 200, but there's still a possibility that what settles this may end up being based on money, whether it involves the money that might be made from a run off, or maybe from Nike making it financially worthwhile for one athlete to withdraw (which could also appear as a selfless gesture by the athlete as far as public relations go), etc...

[gwwayne]

[quote="CookyMonzta"]It would help if they used the most powerful technology out there. Not only is there the electron microscope, but there are cameras capable of taking pictures at more than 10,000, or even a million, frames a second.

actually--that wouldn't help. 10,000 frames a second would only elongate the runners in the photo--making them look fatter.

The frame rate used by the lynx crew was "ideal" in that they runners weren't too skinny, nor too fat. For a distance event, the frame rate should be under 1000 or the runners will be blurred, the hip numbers can't be read, etc.

[lonewolf]

Eureka!!!! The solution just came to me.. Felix and Tarmoh run a 2x50 relay in the Oly.
No?
Oh well, back to the think tank... just avoid a coin toss.

[gwwayne]

From enlarging the finish photo I'm among those who feel that a tiny right portion of Tarmoh's bib may very well be ahead of Felix. If that's the case, then possibly the officials didn't feel it was flush with her torso, but I believe that Tarmoh probably beat Felix by the tiniest of margins.


(1) Be careful with enlarging copies and not the original--you might see something that was never really there.

(2) Make sure that only the torso is used, not shoulder.

(3) By rule, the times of the runners go to thousandths. So, let's say runner A goes 10.0926 and 10.0927 -- they both round up to 10.093 which is the same time and a tie.

[lonewolf]

When you have to blow it up, wipe your eyes and time it to a thousandth, its a dead heat.
Run off.

[einnod23]

Speaking of the New York Times......

"...the only amateurs left in Olympic sports are the officials running them."

[preston]

When you have to blow it up, wipe your eyes and time it to a thousandth, its a dead heat.
Run off.

I couldn't agree more. This suggestion is simple, but true. Run-off, but not this weekend.

[ATK]

Siegel and Hightower are taking the publicity and running with it:

http://www.ctpost.com/sports/article/Hi ... 661980.php

"I've seen this on everything from 'CNN' to the 'Today' show," said Max Siegel, the recently hired CEO for USATF. "We've got to capitalize on the attention they're giving us."

"...It's becoming a media topic that I think is good for the sport. We're going to leverage it."

[Marlow]

When you have to blow it up, wipe your eyes and time it to a thousandth, its a dead heat.
Run off.

Zackly! Let's not introduce evidence that is not within the range of our ability to distinguish differences. I am very pleased they called it a tie, even with the mess we're faced with to break it.