lexvid wrote:Toy racer, a tie for 1st during trials wouldn't require a runoff since 1st through 3rd make the Olympic Team.
Understood in regard to making the team. If you look at my post you'll see that I only addressed breaking a tie for first, not for selection based on that tie. Obviously the two tied for first would make the Olympic team. But to not create a way to break a 1st place tie at all? (doesn't being the US Champion matter?) To not do so while creating a way to break a third place tie is myopic.
Photo micro examination is where this should be concentrating. Making up a rule after a race and saying "this is how we are going to do it for the race you already run" isn't right.
I haven't looked yet but...does the IAAF have in place a procedure for breaking a tie for any placing?
one additional observation on the women's 100 meter final.
after watching the video replay of the race 4-5 times, there are two technical aspects that standout:
1 - Jeter's technique is substantially better than every one of her competitors; her mechanics are so so good.
2 - Felix got an awful start, and she never really gets up into proper upright (higher knee lift position); she's a beautiful, fluid runner, but her sprinting style is better suited to the 200-400: also has too much back kick (slow, not efficient enough heal recover) and she leans a little too much from the hip.
Seems if Felix could better execute her power phase, in order to set up her top end, and then get into a slightly more upright position (with quicker heal recovery), she's be capable of 10.80s in right conditions.
That said, really seems the 100 is meant to wind her up for the 200, which everyone knows is truly her race.
lexvid wrote:I haven't looked yet but...does the IAAF have in place a procedure for breaking a tie for any placing?
The IAAF's rules for tie breaking in event results are identical to those of the USATF (actually I should say it the other way around- the USATF's have been brought into conformity with the IAAF).
But the IAAF does not pick teams for anything.
There is nothing wrong with a dead heat as a final result. Look at PGA golf tournaments. They only break ties for first place, but down the leaderboard it's just fine to leave ties as they are. If you can tell your grandkids that way back in the day, you tied for 2nd in the national championship, that's quite an achievement isn't it? Is getting an outright 2nd *really* that important in the grand scheme of life?
Last edited by Randy Treadway on Mon Jun 25, 2012 12:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
lexvid wrote:Toy racer, a tie for 1st during trials wouldn't require a runoff since 1st through 3rd make the Olympic Team.
Understood in regard to making the team. If you look at my post you'll see that I only addressed breaking a tie for first, not for selection based on that tie. Obviously the two tied for first would make the Olympic team. But to not create a way to break a 1st place tie at all? (doesn't being the US Champion matter?) To not do so while creating a way to break a third place tie is myopic.
Both will be US champion and there would be no runner up just a 3rd place.
Just like in Beijing, Steward and Simpson we both silver medalists, and there was no bronze medalist. if this was and place but 3rd we would not be having this conversation.
fasttrack85 wrote:I like Tiana Madison but she comes off extremely unpleasant. I find it weid that people attack people like Lolo Jones who plays to the camera and crowd and are silent about Madison just leaving before any interviews. Unless she had a bathroom emergency( which I find highly unlikely because I don't see the possiblilty of running sub 11 with a big shit about to drop out your ass) then she is molding a very unlikeable character.
Nothing wrong with keeping herself out of it and concentrating on her next events. Lolo for instance has tread a tricky path this week with the media and fans and keeping quiet means Madison can continue her focus. Just because she's different doesn't make her wrong, if she started spouting cliches she'd not be herself and if it works for her then so be it.
She was interviewed after her Birmingham indoor victory on the BBC and she came across as pleasant and I guess as someone quite in tune with their feelings and emotions. I know there was a lot of talk of her responses to Dan O'Brien after her Arkansas breakout and her race posture which he commented on after Ato did.
Tianna's website before it was taken down talked a lot about her journey and the person that it had led her to be, quite different to Felix who is really polished and professional with the media, but predictable if i am honest, she's been PR coached and it shows. I use to think the same of Sanya but after hearing her on UK radio earlier this year, she's the real deal, funny, thoughtful and clearly determined and focused, but articulate with it.
It use to be about the performance on the track and that was enough but now as fans we want it all! Glowing personality, humour, I even read someone comment on Sanya's hair in another thread!
ATK wrote:They said seasons best could not be used because the selection of the team is based off the performance at trials to begin with. So it would have been unfair to decide a team member based off a non trials event. Which I think is a pretty valid reason.
Nothing is perfect or absolute. For example, the women's discuss event has the 6th place finisher going to London because the 3rd place trials finisher did not have the A standard. obviously neither did the 4th or 5th place finishers but at least a criteria is in place to account for this.
The fastest seasonal time pre trials should have decided the spot between Felix and Tarmoh.
Standards is a completely different situation.
Picking seasons bests would make the trials a joke and seem more like a fun game. Athletes could potentially alter their race to purposely get a dead heat if they know they have a faster SB than another athlete.
Why would anyone attempt to get into a dead heat? Why not just try and win? That seems like the simplest solution.
Randy Treadway wrote:Are you telling me that that procedure is no longer being used, and if you don't have an A qualifier by the end of the Trials, you're dead?
Yes.
Except for the fact that it's at the end of your individual event at the Trials
[Tianna's website before it was taken down talked a lot about her journey and the person that it had led her to be, quite different to Felix who is really polished and professional with the media, but predictable if i am honest, she's been PR coached and it shows. I use to think the same of Sanya but after hearing her on UK radio earlier this year, she's the real deal, funny, thoughtful and clearly determined and focused, but articulate with it.
It use to be about the performance on the track and that was enough but now as fans we want it all! Glowing personality, humour, I even read someone comment on Sanya's hair in another thread![/quote]
Sanya truly does come off really well in interviews. She is well polished but a down to earth home girl at the same time. This is typical of Jamaican Americans who come from Middle Class families. I don't feel Allyson is fake and plastic as people say. She is the daughter of a minister so even if she wasn't a star athlete she is use to eyes being on her and is very weary of how she conducts herself like most Pastor's daughters typically would be. However she can be very witholding of information which some fans aren't too keen on. That may not be her choice it may be the choice of her coach/sponsors etc. I really think at the core they are probably both nice girls. I think Sanya might be a bit more outgoing whiloe Allyson would be cool if you warm up to her.
Randy Treadway wrote:Are you telling me that that procedure is no longer being used, and if you don't have an A qualifier by the end of the Trials, you're dead?
Yes.
So the U.S. is satisfied might send a one- or person- team in some events, even though London will LET them add a fully qualified person later, in July? Let me explain THAT to USOC's list of wealthy donors and see how fast they get somebody fired.
The qualifying period ends July 8th for the Olympics. Not much chasing time at all.
CookyMonzta wrote:When exactly is the entry deadline? if it is after July 14, then this should be done at the Aviva in London.
It is a 2-day meet; so, I imagine there may be a heat and a final. If one fails to make the final and the other qualifies, the finalist gets the 3rd spot, even if she doesn't finish in the final. It'll be a real test with real competition alongside those two.
The US deadline is at the end of the mens 200m final on Sunday.
Any runoff involving anyone else in the race is illogical. The point is for the two athletes to be the only factors.
What is the IOC and/or IAAF deadline? For the U.S. to insist upon a rush job, when at least one other option is open to them (which is not unprecedented), is absolute balderdash. Again, I can only conclude that the hands of the TV execs are deep in the cookie jar on this one!
The conditions of pure competition make it very much relevant that a runoff can be run in the middle of open competition with other competitors. What better motivation is there for them (especially Jeneba Tarmoh) to do their best? London is the perfect place, since that is where the Olympics are being held.
Last edited by CookyMonzta on Mon Jun 25, 2012 1:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
einnod23 wrote:[I disagree with the athlete(s) having the choice!
Yep, they should not have the responsibility of choosing a tie-breaker.. if three "semi-finals" was not enough, they need semi-final 3.5.. two woman run off.
CookyMonzta wrote:When exactly is the entry deadline? if it is after July 14, then this should be done at the Aviva in London.
It is a 2-day meet; so, I imagine there may be a heat and a final. If one fails to make the final and the other qualifies, the finalist gets the 3rd spot, even if she doesn't finish in the final. It'll be a real test with real competition alongside those two.
The US deadline is at the end of the mens 200m final on Sunday.
Any runoff involving anyone else in the race is illogical. The point is for the two athletes to be the only factors.
What is the IOC and/or IAAF deadline? For the U.S. to insist upon a rush job, when at least one other option is open to them (which is not unprecedented) is absolute balderdash. Again, I can only conclude that the hands of the TV execs are deep in the cookie jar on this one!
So what if someone other than the two false starts? what if someone in the race flinches, but does not get called for a false start? what if someone runs into another persons lane? what if someone pulls up with injury in the lane next to them?
And cant bring outside factors into a 1on 1 decision....
The conditions of pure competition make it very much relevant that a runoff can be run in the middle of open competition with other competitors. What better motivation is there for them (especially Jeneba Tarmoh) to do their best? London is the perfect place, since that is where the Olympics are being held.
NotSoOrdinary wrote:Personally, I agree with you. I do think Tarmoh is being treated unfairly.
How so? Given that there was a dead heat and only one remaining Olympic team spot for the 100m......
If you're talking about the premature result display showing erroneously that she'd gotten third, that's history now, and was quickly corrected. How is she *now* being treated unfairly?
ATK: Fat chance that anyone is going to run into those 2. If there is a false start by anyone other than those 2, it is still incumbent upon them to be prepared, as they would in any race where there is a false start. Should they both be placed in lanes next to each other, so much the better to have faster women on either side of them.
If there must be a one-on-one match race, it must take place after the Trials. To do it so soon after the 200 finals, when one or the other will still be fatigued (physically or mentally) after having run all-out in that final, forces one or the other to run the risk of injury, and also smacks of outside interference by the network in a desperate attempt to sell the drama.
If not the Aviva meet in London, they should find a small non-Diamond-League meet where none of the other competitors are capable of running 11.20. Since the PRs of Jeneba and Allyson are much faster, it will be, for all intentional purposes, still a one-on-one runoff. Put them in lanes 4 and 5.
Last edited by CookyMonzta on Mon Jun 25, 2012 2:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Haven't posted here in ages but how great would it be to have the run-off match race on a special 2 lane track in Times Square during Prime Time? There's already a big screen but I'm not sure if the pedestrian plaza is big enough. Would be pretty cool and NBC could probably get pretty good rating with Felix involved....
Crap. The w100 is not on the Diamond League schedule at the Aviva meet. But what if they schedule the 100 as a non-Diamond-League event? Then again, there are several minor meets between July 7 and July 14. The World Challenge meet in Madrid on July 7 sticks out as a possibility to decide the 3rd spot.
lagsun wrote:Haven't posted here in ages but how great would it be to have the run-off match race on a special 2 lane track in Times Square during Prime Time? There's already a big screen but I'm not sure if the pedestrian plaza is big enough. Would be pretty cool and NBC could probably get pretty good rating with Felix involved....
Yeah, yeah, been there, done that... with Donovan and Michael- .... and we all remember how that turned out. Well, maybe there's a lot of people now who weren't AROUND to remember how that one turned out. It wasn't pretty. In any case that was a P.T. Barnum circus kind of promotion, while this is serious athletics. Going back further, Jesse Owens had match races with horses. Ratings should not be a factor in this.
Last edited by Randy Treadway on Mon Jun 25, 2012 2:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
lagsun wrote:Haven't posted here in ages but how great would it be to have the run-off match race on a special 2 lane track in Times Square during Prime Time? There's already a big screen but I'm not sure if the pedestrian plaza is big enough. Would be pretty cool and NBC could probably get pretty good rating with Felix involved....
Anything that doesn't involve them holding this runoff so soon (within 3 days) after the 200 final. And ESPN would do a much better job at it.
lagsun wrote:Haven't posted here in ages but how great would it be to have the run-off match race on a special 2 lane track in Times Square during Prime Time? There's already a big screen but I'm not sure if the pedestrian plaza is big enough. Would be pretty cool and NBC could probably get pretty good rating with Felix involved....
Yeah, yeah, been there, done that... with Donovan and Michael- .... and we all remember how that turned out. Well, maybe there's a lot of people now who weren't AROUND to remember how that one turned out. It wasn't pretty. In any case that was a P.T. Barnum circus kind of promotion, while this is serious athletics. Going back father, Jesse Owens had match races with horses. Ratings should not be a factor in this.
I forgot about Bailey and Johnson. That is an even bigger reason why they should not have this runoff the day after the 200 final.
Last edited by CookyMonzta on Mon Jun 25, 2012 2:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
CookyMonzta wrote:The World Challenge meet in Madrid on July 7 sticks out as a possibility to decide the 3rd spot.
Warm (maybe even hot) mediterranean weather came to mind to me too. Athens is another tour stop possibility. I think USATF could agree to do it at a recognized competition where Kersee's troops were already planning to go anyway.
CookyMonzta wrote:The World Challenge meet in Madrid on July 7 sticks out as a possibility to decide the 3rd spot.
Warm (maybe even hot) mediterranean weather came to mind to me too. Athens is another tour stop possibility. I think USATF could agree to do it at a recognized competition where Kersee's troops were already planning to go anyway.
Anywhere and any time but Sunday. There is no excuse whatsoever for the USATF to refuse to designate a meet for the runoff, to give the girls time to recover from running 6 races in a week; unless someone at NBC is pulling their leg. If they have not the courage to resist, lest one or both of the girls comes up seriously injured in that runoff, they should all resign.
Any talk of running with other athletes is seriously illogical like I said before.
Even if you think it wont happen it can happen and to many mental and psycological aspects come into play. Put Felix and Tarmoh in 4 and 5, fine. If one of the other 6 athletes has an amazing start that can effect them. If one of them has an odd running form that can effect them. If someone drifts into their lane than can be a factor. etc... Athletes are not robots, they see and sense things and everyone reacts differently but accordingly. Whether its physically or mentally, they react.
The only factors should be Felix and Tarmoh and the track. Any other athlete just leads to potentially more problems and changes the dynamics of what should be a pure head to head decision maker.
Last edited by ATK on Mon Jun 25, 2012 3:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
ATK wrote:Any talk of running with other athletes is seriously illogical like I said before.
The only factors should be Felix and Tarmoh and the track. Any other athlete just leads to potentially more problems and changes the dynamics of what should be a pure head to head decision maker.
CookyMonzta wrote:What is the IOC and/or IAAF deadline? For the U.S. to insist upon a rush job, when at least one other option is open to them (which is not unprecedented), is absolute balderdash.
Both athletes will be on the IOC list for the 100m event, as the IOC allows 3 athletes + 1 alternate. And both will be present in London for the relay. The deadline to choose the which 3 compete is something like 12 or 24 hours (maybe less?) before the first round of the event starts, which would be in August. So there is well over a month to decide who gets to run in that 3rd spot! Deciding it next weekend is completely unnecessary.
I might be wrong but I thought Ms. Geer wanted the situation settled in terms of indentifying how the tie would be broken by the end of the trials rather than actually breaking the tie by the end of next weekend.
My gut feeling is along the lines of the poster who mentioned that as long as Felix was safely through on the 200m team there would be some agreement that she would run on the two relays and she would pass on the 100m.
Dutra5 wrote:I might be wrong but I thought Ms. Geer wanted the situation settled in terms of indentifying how the tie would be broken by the end of the trials rather than actually breaking the tie by the end of next weekend.
The team must be chosen by the end of the weekend...
