Felix: Sucessful Double?

[gh]

So the big question now is, "which double?" There's no question that a classic 1/2 double would be easier on the body than a 2/4, but despite yesterday, I still see no chance for Felix as a 100 medalist, whereas in the 400 she most certainly is.

I have to wonder (and this is pure speculation) that if winning the 200 gold is paramount—and it certainly would be for me in her place—if she can't at some point be thinking about no double at all, and put all her individual eggs in the half-lap basket.

[Trackrunner]

If her objective is to win an individual gold medal it is obvious to me what her choice should be after seeing yesterday's performance. She should put everything she has in the 200M event. All of her 200M rivals are planning on doubling (Campbell-Brown, Jeter, possibly Fraser-Pryce). She'll have the advantage of coming to the event with fresh legs. She just ran a PB in the 100M event beating the top tier sprinters. Its a no brainer. Duh...

[gh]

see a timetable analysis in the Day's Best Reading section now posted on the front page

[Fortius19]

If her objective is to win an individual gold medal it is obvious to me what her choice should be after seeing yesterday's performance. She should put everything she has in the 200M event. All of her 200M rivals are planning on doubling (Campbell-Brown, Jeter, possibly Fraser-Pryce). She'll have the advantage of coming to the event with fresh legs. She just ran a PB in the 100M event beating the top tier sprinters. Its a no brainer. Duh...

EXACTLY!!!

[gh]

e-mail I just got:

<<I'm at the USOC Media Summit in Dallas and the USATF panel is going on right now. Allyson Felix just said her standard answer about what events she'll run at the Olympic Trials is "ask Bobby. … The 200 is my priority, that's what I'm focused on at Trials. I will run another event and Bobby will make that decision.">>

[gh]

<<And Sanya Richards-Ross just said she "may" run the 200 at Trials, but "the 400 is my ultimate goal." >>

[guru]

e-mail I just got:

<<I'm at the USOC Media Summit in Dallas and the USATF panel is going on right now. Allyson Felix just said her standard answer about what events she'll run at the Olympic Trials is "ask Bobby. … The 200 is my priority, that's what I'm focused on at Trials. I will run another event and Bobby will make that decision.">>

No big surprise here. She said the same thing in a link I posted to this thread last week.

It's pretty amazing that a grown woman doesn't have the final say on what events she competes in. It was telling that she didnt talk to Kersee for the better part of a week following the 200 loss in Beijing.

[guru]

<<And Sanya Richards-Ross just said she "may" run the 200 at Trials, but "the 400 is my ultimate goal." >>

Makes sense from a couple of different angles. Even if she doesnt plan to run it at the Olympics, it's a good chance to get some excellent speedwork in, without jeopardizing her main event. The three-day break between the 400 and 200 makes it a viable option. Also an excellent chance to make a final bid for 4x1 consideration, if that's something she wants.

[guru]

And this is a "tough" one in that with the way the schedule works, she can't make the 200 team then decide whether or not to add the 400, since the longer one comes first.

At this point, it's precipitous drop off in the 200 once you get past Jeter and Felix...

After the events of this weekend, I retract that statement

[TrackDaddy]

I think their rivalry is renewed every year. Look at how Sanya reacts to losing to Felix at 1:11
in this vid and a 1:18 gives her the slightest handshake while all the other competitors hug her to congratulate her.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KgeDeDXJ4Dk

Yes, I don't think its easy for either of them to lose to the other. With this race all the other competitors may not have as much of a problem losing to Felix due to her talent. But Sanya obviously wouldn't feel that way.

[TrackDaddy]

Carmelita Jeter is untalented, unknown, fluke winner, local, and will be making headlines in about 5 years time, but not in the way she'll want.

VCB is not a better 200m runner than Allyson Felix, the times prove that much. On average Allyson runs the 200m faster than VCB. Allyson doesn't get beaten by lessers, and Allyson has beaten VCB more times than VCB has beaten her.

Allyson's legacy and impact will be much greater than Sanya's once she retires. Plain and simple. I must say it is hilarious to see TD back on here cackling down when he was nowhere to be found most of last year when Sanya was running atrociously. You should be worried more about how USATF replaced Sanya with Allyson as their golden girl, they know the truth.

Allyson beats VCB more than vice versa because VCB doubles more.

I was on here "cackling down" last year. Just not as much in the off season. Felix only doubled in the 400 because Bobby knew Sanya was out in 2010 and not fit/healthy last year.

I'm not worried about USATF. I realize Kersee has more influence than Coach Hart.

VCB is best 200m runner of this era...bar none (but only because Sanya hasn't focused on it ).

[jperkins]

I love me some AF but unless she's running 10.8s consistently, she doesn't have a chance at the medal stand in the 100m. Between Jeter, VCB, and SAF alone, she's coming in fourth. I'm not saying that in a championship situation, she couldn't surprise everyone but I wouldn't crown her a threat based on a 10.92...not with what these ladies have been running the past few years! Allyson, concentrate on the 200m, use the speed to blitz the curve like never before and finally get your Olympic Gold!

[TrackDaddy]

I love me some AF but unless she's running 10.8s consistently, she doesn't have a chance at the medal stand in the 100m. Between Jeter, VCB, and SAF alone, she's coming in fourth. I'm not saying that in a championship situation, she couldn't surprise everyone but I wouldn't crown her a threat based on a 10.92...not with what these ladies have been running the past few years! Allyson, concentrate on the 200m, use the speed to blitz the curve like never before and finally get your Olympic Gold!

In 2007 Felix made the US team in both the 100 and 200. So did VCB. But instead of actually running both Felix dropped out of the 100 while VCB ran both. VCB beat Lauryn by .1 I believe and was crushed by Felix in the 200.

Later, her team said that Felix dropping out of the 100 was a strategic move. This strategy has worked more than once.

[t_monk]

I love me some AF but unless she's running 10.8s consistently, she doesn't have a chance at the medal stand in the 100m. Between Jeter, VCB, and SAF alone, she's coming in fourth. I'm not saying that in a championship situation, she couldn't surprise everyone but I wouldn't crown her a threat based on a 10.92...not with what these ladies have been running the past few years! Allyson, concentrate on the 200m, use the speed to blitz the curve like never before and finally get your Olympic Gold!

I say 5th at best... KAB will also be at 10.8's at least I believe.

[guru]

With Jeter, Madison, and Duncan, assuming top 3 in the 100 for Felix at the Trials would be assuming alot.

Would not bet against the Felix we saw a few days ago, but I think there a very good chance it's going to take mid-10.8 to make this team.

[TrackDaddy]

Even if AF made the 100 team, if VCB doubles, Felix would drop the 100 and just run the 200.

Wisely.

Besides 2007, go back and check the results the year VCB failed to make the Jamaican team in the 100.

[ATK]

With Jeter, Madison, and Duncan, assuming top 3 in the 100 for Felix at the Trials would be assuming alot.

Would not bet against the Felix we saw a few days ago, but I think there a very good chance it's going to take mid-10.8 to make this team.

Why do you assume Duncan is a better bet at trials than Felix?

[NotSoOrdinary]

Carmelita Jeter is untalented, unknown, fluke winner, local, and will be making headlines in about 5 years time, but not in the way she'll want.

VCB is not a better 200m runner than Allyson Felix, the times prove that much. On average Allyson runs the 200m faster than VCB. Allyson doesn't get beaten by lessers, and Allyson has beaten VCB more times than VCB has beaten her.

Allyson's legacy and impact will be much greater than Sanya's once she retires. Plain and simple. I must say it is hilarious to see TD back on here cackling down when he was nowhere to be found most of last year when Sanya was running atrociously. You should be worried more about how USATF replaced Sanya with Allyson as their golden girl, they know the truth.

Allyson beats VCB more than vice versa because VCB doubles more.

I was on here "cackling down" last year. Just not as much in the off season. Felix only doubled in the 400 because Bobby knew Sanya was out in 2010 and not fit/healthy last year.

I'm not worried about USATF. I realize Kersee has more influence than Coach Hart.

VCB is best 200m runner of this era...bar none (but only because Sanya hasn't focused on it

Nope, on average Allyson runs the 200m faster than VCB period. VCB as a 100m sprinter > VCB as a 200m sprinter. Allyson Felix 200m > VCB 200m.

You will have to live with the fact that Sanya isn't as talented as Allyson TD

On the bright side, she may be as talented as VCB

[Deerfoot]

I'm not sure you can make a definitive argument for either Felix or VCB over 200m. In terms of championships, they each have 3 global titles at the distance. In terms of times, VCB has a better PB, but Felix has more fast times overall. In head-to-heads over 200m, Felix leads 6-4(I think), hardly an overwhelming advantage.
You can make a case for either woman, based on this or that factor, but I hardly think it's clearcut either way.

[Gabriella]

Re Felix vs SRR, in years to come, no one will remember who won AOY, not even 'proper' fans. Most sane people understand it's a subjective, meaningless title that more often than not overlooks the field eventers. What will be remembered is who won what title or set what WR. I agree SRR has had some fantastic seasons with great series of fast races; of course I recognise that, but what matters most is titles. SRR has plenty of time (on paper) to cement her legacy, but she will need to do it by winning golds, not by winning GP races in 48.8.

On the double, I think Felix she should definitely consider the 100/200 double, more so than the 400m. After her race in Japan I wasn't impressed, she didn't have the margin of victory I'd expect over the other women. But in Doha she just beat all 3 medalists from Beijing, she beat the 100 silver medalist from Daegu and ran a PB with a run that was dominant from the gun. However...I want to see her race the 100m more. She doesn't run it enough for me to be fully confident she can get on the podium. But she obviously has the ability to do so, so with more and more racing who knows, maybe she can get down to the 10.8 needed to be a contender?

Kerron Stewart's form is just too erratic at the moment and I can't see her getting down to 10.7 by London. Jeter is looking good and for a first race out, VCB looked super and will no doubt improve. SAFP is another enigma and going by 08 and 09, you'd expect her to be a contender. Felix just needs to race the 100m more often like these other women to ensure her consistency. But she's a terrific competitor and racer and you can never bet against her.

[TrackDaddy]

Re Felix vs SRR, in years to come, no one will remember who won AOY, not even 'proper' fans. Most sane people understand it's a subjective, meaningless title that more often than not overlooks the field eventers. What will be remembered is who won what title or set what WR. I agree SRR has had some fantastic seasons with great series of fast races; of course I recognise that, but what matters most is titles. SRR has plenty of time (on paper) to cement her legacy, but she will need to do it by winning golds, not by winning GP races in 48.8.

Those of us who are insane and don't overlook the AOY (including the folk who hand it out) understand that even if it does 'overlook the field eventers'....ITS STILL AN AMAZING ACCOMPLISHMENT across all genres.

Yes, what matters most is titles but comparing titles across events isn't always the easiest analysis.

So the history you consider relevant might "suggest", for example, that Christine Ohoruogu is a better 400m runner than Sanya Richards-Ross because she has more titles. But then most sane folk know that is a subjective analysis utilizing limited information. Having only one critieria for analyzing performance is how a fool measures success .

[notorious]

I'm not sure you can make a definitive argument for either Felix or VCB over 200m. In terms of championships, they each have 3 global titles at the distance. In terms of times, VCB has a better PB, but Felix has more fast times overall. In head-to-heads over 200m, Felix leads 6-4(I think), hardly an overwhelming advantage.
You can make a case for either woman, based on this or that factor, but I hardly think it's clearcut either way.

Veronica has the medals that really counts, that is,two Olympic gold medals at 200m(2004 and 2008).

[RonnyRuff]

I'm not sure you can make a definitive argument for either Felix or VCB over 200m. In terms of championships, they each have 3 global titles at the distance. In terms of times, VCB has a better PB, but Felix has more fast times overall. In head-to-heads over 200m, Felix leads 6-4(I think), hardly an overwhelming advantage.
You can make a case for either woman, based on this or that factor, but I hardly think it's clearcut either way.

Veronica has the medals that really counts, that is,two Olympic gold medals at 200m(2004 and 2008).

I never understood that argument of Olympic medals being "worth" more than World Championship medals. Among the casual fan I get it; along the educated baffles me. Most World Champs that fit inside any given Olympic Cycle has the same competitors in almost every event, so why the lack of respect for World Champ medals as compared to Olympic Medals?

[gh]

I'm sure that notorious, the eternal shit-disturber, would assert that 3 WC wins trumps 2 OG wins if it were VCB who had the former.

[Smoke]

So we are going to just act like NSO didn't spout some trash about Jeter, unprovoked, unfounded, and baseless? We are just going to keep posting as if that did not happen? Or can I insinuate that your silence means you agree? It has become a very easy thing to do on this board over the last couple of years, but only against Jeter. It is insulting, and counter productive. But please, continue the banter about SRR and AF and if she will double and where. Carry on, I have vented.

[notorious]

I'm not sure you can make a definitive argument for either Felix or VCB over 200m. In terms of championships, they each have 3 global titles at the distance. In terms of times, VCB has a better PB, but Felix has more fast times overall. In head-to-heads over 200m, Felix leads 6-4(I think), hardly an overwhelming advantage.
You can make a case for either woman, based on this or that factor, but I hardly think it's clearcut either way.

Veronica has the medals that really counts, that is,two Olympic gold medals at 200m(2004 and 2008).

I never understood that argument of Olympic medals being "worth" more than World Championship medals. Among the casual fan I get it; along the educated baffles me. Most World Champs that fit inside any given Olympic Cycle has the same competitors in almost every event, so why the lack of respect for World Champ medals as compared to Olympic Medals?

Everybody watches the Olympic games on TV(track and nontrack fans). It comes on in the daytime and in prime time.

Only trackfans watch the World Championships that usually only gets national TV coverage on weekends and not in Prime Time. The Olympics have a great history behind it starting way back in Greece. The first World Championships only began in 1983 I believe.

[notorious]

I'm sure that notorious, the eternal shit-disturber, would assert that 3 WC wins trumps 2 OG wins if it were VCB who had the former.

lol. GH, I can't believe you threw me under the bus like that

[26mi235]

Carmelita Jeter is untalented, unknown, fluke winner, local, and will be making headlines in about 5 years time, but not in the way she'll want.

You seem to be unaware of the fact that Jeter is beating people because of the technique that she has been able to master. That technique does not come in a bottle or cream or .... If you think it takes no talent to be able to do that, go look at all those other runners with very good speed who cannot attain that mastery of technique. It took her a while under her then-new coach to fully grasp the various elements of the technique and was beat by two stellar Jamaican sprinters who produced the best races of their careers at the most crucial race (and Jeter might not have gotten Bronze if VCB had been in the 100, as her technique was just getting there [great semi but 'luck of the draw' she got it in the wrong race)

As for that headline, is it going to be
LA, July 1, 2017
"Double/double Olympic Champion can no longer keep growing leg problems from slowing her." It ends her 8-year reign at the top of women's sprinting and she will have to give up her dream of garnering the largest collection women's of T&F Gold medals, finishing with a mere 8 individual Gold medals, to go with her 5 relay Golds and several bronze medals from the period of her later-than normal ascendency.*

If you meant something else, I suggest that you read board policy and recognize that second offenses carry bigger penalties -- you probably understand that rule, right?



* I do not actually expect her to do this, but I think that she will probably get at least one more individual Gold and as many as three, but she is competing against a very talented and motivated groups of sprinters and three will be tough.

[jazzcyclist]

You seem to be unaware of the fact that Jeter is beating people because of the technique that she has been able to master. That technique does not come in a bottle or cream or .... If you think it takes no talent to be able to do that, go look at all those other runners with very good speed who cannot attain that mastery of technique. It took her a while under her then-new coach to fully grasp the various elements of the technique and was beat by two stellar Jamaican sprinters who produced the best races of their careers at the most crucial race (and Jeter might not have gotten Bronze if VCB had been in the 100, as her technique was just getting there [great semi but 'luck of the draw' she got it in the wrong race)

Do you really believe that John Smith has invented some new running technique that only he can teach? Come on man.

[26mi235]

You seem to be unaware of the fact that Jeter is beating people because of the technique that she has been able to master. That technique does not come in a bottle or cream or .... If you think it takes no talent to be able to do that, go look at all those other runners with very good speed who cannot attain that mastery of technique. It took her a while under her then-new coach to fully grasp the various elements of the technique and was beat by two stellar Jamaican sprinters who produced the best races of their careers at the most crucial race (and Jeter might not have gotten Bronze if VCB had been in the 100, as her technique was just getting there [great semi but 'luck of the draw' she got it in the wrong race)

Do you really believe that John Smith has invented some new running technique that only he can teach? Come on man.

No, I do not, but Jeter has been able to pick up subtleties of technique that make a difference against the likes of SAFP, VCB, etc. I think that it takes talent and work to be able to put those pieces together because she does it better than just about anybody. She puts together a pretty complete race so that she gets from A to B fast and survives to race the next round.

[Speedster]

I'm sure that notorious, the eternal shit-disturber, would assert that 3 WC wins trumps 2 OG wins if it were VCB who had the former.

Post of 2012 (so far).

[Gabriella]

No, I do not, but Jeter has been able to pick up subtleties of technique that make a difference against the likes of SAFP, VCB, etc. I think that it takes talent and work to be able to put those pieces together because she does it better than just about anybody. She puts together a pretty complete race so that she gets from A to B fast and survives to race the next round.

Jeter's technique is textbook sprinting; think Flo Jo and Privalova. High knees, good extension, correct arm action. It's a technique that can be taught but even better if it comes naturally. I believe each athlete should stick to whatever comes naturally to them though, and unless their technique is obviously restrictive, don't change it. Torrance had a horrible arm action but it worked for her.

What I would say is, Jeter's technique needs a lot of strength and power to maintain that high knee lift and take-off for the whole race. This is why I think we see more men with that technique than women; it's just plain tough. So, I can kind of understand why some would think Jeter has 'gotten' this technique from 'somewhere/something'. But being able to run like this obviously gives Jeter a technical advantage, especially when she relaxes. This is why it's paramount SAFP get's a bullet start and puts Jeter under pressure, or why VCB also needs to nail her start and not tense up/dip too early as she seems to be doing a lot lately.

[Deerfoot]

I too rate the Olympics above the Worlds, which is why I lean towards VCB being the greater at this point. I just don't think it's definitive.
As to whether the Olympics are 'really' worth more than the worlds, that's a difficult one. In practical terms there is no difference between them. No one who will make a difference will miss either(obviously allowing for injuries etc). However, the Olympics have the greater prestige, like Wimbledon among the Grand Slams. To become an Olympic gold medallist is the ultimate dream of most athletes. You could say the Olympics are worth more because that's what we've decided. I think it's important to have an ultimate pinnacle to which athletes should aim, so I agree with this. It may be a relativistic argument, but that's my stance.
In addition, there may be one real reason why an Olympic medal is a greater achievement than its Worlds counterpart. All else being equal the pressure on athletes at an Olympics is probably higher than in a Worlds. Therefore it requires more nerve and competitive strength to win at an Olympics.

[jazzcyclist]

Jeter's technique is textbook sprinting; think Flo Jo and Privalova. High knees, good extension, correct arm action. It's a technique that can be taught but even better if it comes naturally. I believe each athlete should stick to whatever comes naturally to them though, and unless their technique is obviously restrictive, don't change it. Torrance had a horrible arm action but it worked for her.

What I would say is, Jeter's technique needs a lot of strength and power to maintain that high knee lift and take-off for the whole race. This is why I think we see more men with that technique than women; it's just plain tough. So, I can kind of understand why some would think Jeter has 'gotten' this technique from 'somewhere/something'. But being able to run like this obviously gives Jeter a technical advantage, especially when she relaxes. This is why it's paramount SAFP get's a bullet start and puts Jeter under pressure, or why VCB also needs to nail her start and not tense up/dip too early as she seems to be doing a lot lately.

I don't recall Flo-jo's technique being simular to Jeter's. However, the big change that I've noticed in Jeter over the last five to six years is her physique more than her technique.

[preston]

Jeter's technique is textbook sprinting; think Flo Jo and Privalova. High knees, good extension, correct arm action. It's a technique that can be taught but even better if it comes naturally. I believe each athlete should stick to whatever comes naturally to them though, and unless their technique is obviously restrictive, don't change it. Torrance had a horrible arm action but it worked for her.

What I would say is, Jeter's technique needs a lot of strength and power to maintain that high knee lift and take-off for the whole race. This is why I think we see more men with that technique than women; it's just plain tough. So, I can kind of understand why some would think Jeter has 'gotten' this technique from 'somewhere/something'. But being able to run like this obviously gives Jeter a technical advantage, especially when she relaxes. This is why it's paramount SAFP get's a bullet start and puts Jeter under pressure, or why VCB also needs to nail her start and not tense up/dip too early as she seems to be doing a lot lately.

I don't recall Flo-jo's technique being simular to Jeter's. However, the big change that I've noticed in Jeter over the last five to six years is her physique more than her technique.

I disagree, jazz. Jeter's biggest changes is not her physique, it's her technique. She runs more like a man: less recovery, more frontside mechanics. Arron, Edwards, MJones, Thanou, Privalova and a few others ran like this. The vast majority of other women are just butt-kickers!