Which event for Laura Roesler? [split]


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Re: Which event for Laura Roesler? [split]

Postby Master Po » Mon May 14, 2012 5:34 am

CookyMonzta wrote:
gh wrote:bad day for the boo-birds on the board; first Hasay kicks to Pac-12 1500 win, now Roesler runs a masterful 800 to win.

A win is a win, yes; but 2:05.13 don't exactly impress me. She still has yet to run her H.S. PR of 2:03.02, and i doubt that performance will win the NCAA Champs.


Performances and statistics can be endlessly interpreted (thank heaven)...I see her performance at PAC-12 in a different light. True -- it is not a PB, or even a 2:03-above her best to 2:04. And, yes, I agree that 2:05 isn't going to do much of anything at NCAA. Probably even a 2:03 isn't going to do a whole lot at that meet, though it might earn some points. All that noted, what she did in this conference championship race was win the conference championship, which for me is the primary standard of assessment of a championship race. It was not a fast pace: she ran intelligently in 4th through 600, and then ran away from the field. Not fast, but well done. No predictions about NCAA, much less the distant future. We'll see the next step in a few weeks. For now, a fine race, and a well-earned championship.
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Re: Which event for Laura Roesler? [split]

Postby preston » Mon May 14, 2012 7:59 am

I think "boo birds" is a bit strong. The issue was whether she was in the right event (and when she consistently splits amont the fastest women of the day some of us have to wonder what she would/could split if she was trained primarily as a sprinter). 2:05 and a win doesn't exactly prove the point one way or the other. I wouldn't be surprised if there were a few women 400m and 400h who were capable of winning PAC-12's and running 2:05.
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Re: Which event for Laura Roesler? [split]

Postby tandfman » Mon May 14, 2012 7:01 pm

My thoughts are the same as Master Po's.

I still think she's an 800 runner.

We'll see soon enough what she and her coaches think.
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Re: Which event for Laura Roesler? [split]

Postby Jacksf » Mon May 14, 2012 8:25 pm

I agree with Preston on this one.
Good win for her, but she still has not improved her times in the 800m.
I think if she was training as a 400m runner (which is where I think her greatest talent lies), she could have won the Pac 12 400m.
As it is, she runs anchor on the 4 x 400m Oregon relay, and one of the other girls on the relay, won the 400m title.
As far as what the coaches think - we already know, since they have her running the 800m, and have never had her drop down to run an individual 400m.
Maybe they are afraid of how well she might do ;p
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Re: Which event for Laura Roesler? [split]

Postby 26mi235 » Mon May 14, 2012 8:41 pm

A freshman from Illinois wins the Big 10 400 in 51.02 on a 'not fast track' with no one near her while also winning the 200 (22.9x?) and the 4x400, so 5 races (unless she also ran heats/finals of the 4x100). [and she might not be the best frosh with Diane Dixon, but I am guessing some people are going to adjust their forecast for NCAAs...]

Roesler does not have those kinds of wheels.
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Re: Which event for Laura Roesler? [split]

Postby EPelle » Mon May 14, 2012 11:10 pm

Jacksf wrote:As far as what the coaches think - we already know, since they have her running the 800m, and have never had her drop down to run an individual 400m.
Maybe they are afraid of how well she might do ;p

That Roesler hadn't run an open 400m seemed improbable. In fact, Roesler ran 54,63 for sixth in the open 400 at the 2011 Stanford Invitational.

Code: Select all
Event 54  Women 400 Meter Dash -
================================================================
    Name                    Year School                  Finals
================================================================
Section  1 
  1   141 Williams, Shelise      Arkansas                 52.50 
  2  3395 Williams, Charonda     adidas                   52.71 
  3   125 George, Regina         Arkansas                 53.46 
  4  1295 McLaughlin, Ashlea     UCLA                     54.11 
  5   133 Jones, Whitney         Arkansas                 54.54 
  6   963 Roesler, Laura         Oregon                   54.63 
  7  1158 Levingston, Cariss     Stanford                 55.14 
  8  1155 Hendricks, Shataya     Stanford                 56.74 
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Re: Which event for Laura Roesler? [split]

Postby preston » Tue May 15, 2012 5:57 am

26mi235 wrote:A freshman from Illinois wins the Big 10 400 in 51.02 on a 'not fast track' with no one near her while also winning the 200 (22.9x?) and the 4x400, so 5 races (unless she also ran heats/finals of the 4x100). [and she might not be the best frosh with Diane Dixon, but I am guessing some people are going to adjust their forecast for NCAAs...]

Roesler does not have those kinds of wheels.

She doesn't have the wheels? That's ridiculous! ASHLEY SPENCER DIDN'T HAVE THOSE TYPE OF WHEELS AT AGE 16! SHE HAD TO DEVELOP THEM! That is the problem with you 26mi235: you're disingenuous and hell bent on promoting your bias. Did Ashley Spencer run 22.xx as a sophomore in high school? Did she run sub-54? Because that is the ONLY comparison that you should be making! The point that I, jacksf, and cookymonzta have been making is that HAD Roessler been sprinting since her sophomore year she very well COULD (don't think any of us ever said would) have been a top sprinter by now (OR NOT). But what is entirely mind-boggling to people who actually follow track as a passion is that you, and a few others, expect her to run sprint times WHILE TRAINING FOR THE 800m! Why would she get faster by training considerably slower years on end? (Any trace of sprint muscles de-trained on a daily basis yet she still runs sprint splits and physically shares a resemblance to a sprinter.)

Even looking at the list below you find Roesler getting 6th in a race, where SHE DID NOT PB, that included a professional athlete who ran the 200m in Berlin and 3 of the women from Arkansas who have been part of one of the best SEC quartets for the last few years and she held her own. Now, which one of them ran faster than Roessler for 100, 200 or 400 at the age of 16? Answer that! Without even researching it I will say not one. But you're welcome to prove me wrong.
EPelle wrote:
Code: Select all
Event 54 Women 400 Meter Dash -
================================================================
Name Year School Finals
================================================================
Section 1
1 141 Williams, Shelise Arkansas 52.50
2 3395 Williams, Charonda adidas 52.71
3 125 George, Regina Arkansas 53.46
4 1295 McLaughlin, Ashlea UCLA 54.11
5 133 Jones, Whitney Arkansas 54.54
6 963 Roesler, Laura Oregon 54.63
7 1158 Levingston, Cariss Stanford 55.14
8 1155 Hendricks, Shataya Stanford 56.74


Time and again within this thread it has been shown where 400m runners didn't have blazing 100 or 200 speed and still managed to 1) make US Olympic Teams AND even win global championships; or 2) get FASTER! There is a possibility that Roessler is in the correct event (5000 gh? really?); there is also a possibility that she COULD have been a top sprinter. Just ask Kaleise Spencer or Monique Hennagan or Jearl Miles or Ana Quirot...(I'd list more but you obviously haven't been paying attention in the thread so why bother).
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Re: Which event for Laura Roesler? [split]

Postby preston » Tue May 15, 2012 6:17 am

Fantu Magiso, allowed to develop her "speed" (in distance-mad Ethiopia, no less) until the age of 18 ran 1:57.90 to nearly beat Pamela Jelimo in Doha. Last year she set PB's of 23.90 and 52.09 (times that would have scored her at almost any NCAA conference meet) in the 200 and 400, respectively - yet she DOUBLED in Daegu: running 1:59.17 for 4th in the w800m semifinal and 53.41 for 7th in w400m semifinal.

What could have been...
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Re: Which event for Laura Roesler? [split]

Postby 26mi235 » Tue May 15, 2012 9:58 am

Preston, LR does not have 51.02 (on slowish track) wheels. I think her all-out 400r legs are 51-high and that is 52.3 or so. 1.25 seconds (or more) at that level is BIG. LR has been stable at her level for a long time, whereas Spencer is apparently developing rapidly at this point. Spencer ran that 51.02 after running 51.99 in the prelim, doing a 4x100 Prelim and 200 Prelim [all Saturday] and 1x100 Final (trying to catch Manning, the winner of the 100) then the 400 while saving something for the 200 [she won in 22.99/0.x, beating Manning] and the 4x400 [coming from second to anchor a 3:31 despite a slowish first leg].

Those are wheels LR simply does not have (those are OG 400 Final wheels since the slow track and multitude of races implies she may go 50.5 soon).
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Re: Which event for Laura Roesler? [split]

Postby preston » Tue May 15, 2012 10:02 am

26mi235 wrote:Preston, LR does not have 51.02 (on slowish track) wheels. I think her all-out 400r legs are 51-high and that is 52.3 or so. 1.25 seconds (or more) at that level is BIG. LR has been stable at her level for a long time, whereas Spencer is apparently developing rapidly at this point. Spencer ran that 51.02 after running 51.99 in the prelim, doing a 4x100 Prelim and 200 Prelim [all Saturday] and 1x100 Final (trying to catch Manning, the winner of the 100) then the 400 while saving something for the 200 [she won in 22.99/0.x, beating Manning] and the 4x400 [coming from second to anchor a 3:31 despite a slowish first leg].

Those are wheels LR simply does not have (those are OG 400 Final wheels since the slow track and multitude of races implies she may go 50.5 soon).

Show me where spencer had 11.90/24.30/53.25 "wheels" at age 16?
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Re: Which event for Laura Roesler? [split]

Postby 26mi235 » Tue May 15, 2012 11:29 am

I did not say anything about her 16-year-old wheels [at least I do not think that I did and did not mean to give that impression]. Thanks for clearing that up, because it means that to an extent we are not necessarily in disagreement.

I was just trying to saying that she (now) has wheels that (I do not think that ) LR will ever have. Given LR's background (state titles ~7/8th grade in the sprints) she has been a top runner with some emphasis on sprints for a long time there does not seem the same room for the type of improvement. LR is developing fairly slowly at this point and seems highly unlikely to suddenly drop big sprint PRs. She will never run a 22.x and I am not sure she even has a 23.x to her credit.
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Re: Which event for Laura Roesler? [split]

Postby preston » Tue May 15, 2012 12:32 pm

26mi235 wrote:I did not say anything about her 16-year-old wheels [at least I do not think that I did and did not mean to give that impression]. Thanks for clearing that up, because it means that to an extent we are not necessarily in disagreement.

I was just trying to saying that she (now) has wheels that (I do not think that ) LR will ever have. Given LR's background (state titles ~7/8th grade in the sprints) she has been a top runner with some emphasis on sprints for a long time there does not seem the same room for the type of improvement. LR is developing fairly slowly at this point and seems highly unlikely to suddenly drop big sprint PRs. She will never run a 22.x and I am not sure she even has a 23.x to her credit.

Well, she certainly will never run 22.xx while training for the 800+ but we'll never really know if she COULD HAVE (for the record, I'm not saying that she would have I just leave open the possibility). But, the fact that she ran 24.30, with North Dakota weather and competition, while training mid/long-distance and running so many events ... I'm pretty confident that she was a sub-24s 200m runner when she was a sophomore in high school and probably would have finished high school near sub-23.50 (the fact that she doesn't have one to her credit is little different than Usain Bolt not having a 100m to his credit prior to the 2007 season. He was still fast enough to be top-5 in the world at 100m).

Also, I'm not sure if this is a correction but she won the XC champs as a 7/8th grader (I'm not sure if she won the sprints also but I don't think so...); she just happened to also have 12.0 speed. My point that is shared by CookyMonzta and jacksf is that at that point in time with a concentration in the sprints she COULD HAVE become a sprinter. But long before she ever got to Oregon they decided she would be a mid-distance runner and that is how they trained her. She is only continuing what she thinks is her best event and it's so difficult to contend that because she ran 2:03 as a 16-year old; but, she also ran faster than most of Jamaica's 16-year old sprinters in the 100, 200 and 400 - had she grown up in Jamaica we might be seeing Sanya Richards toughest Rival. Or, had she grown up in Australia maybe she would be a podium threat but growing up in the US made her "destined" to be a mid-distance runner. And, that's unfortunate (if it turns out that she could have been better at the shorter sprints).
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Re: Which event for Laura Roesler? [split]

Postby 26mi235 » Tue May 15, 2012 1:55 pm

It is my memory that she was as much a sprinter as an 800 runner until later in high school, maybe even more so. It is not the case (I don't think) that she was typically training for the 800 and ran the sprints occasionally. I think she had more titles in the 200 than anything and at least as many 100s as 800 (but not sure).
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Re: Which event for Laura Roesler? [split]

Postby Jacksf » Tue May 15, 2012 2:18 pm

26mi235,
I think it is really unfair and ridiculous of you to constantly dismiss Laura Roesler's speed.
I am repeating myself here, but you are ignoring these facts:

*Her HS time of 53.25 was 9th fastest in the country that year.
*Her HS 200m pb was 24.01.
*She ran on the gold medal 2010 WJrChampionships 4x400m relay with collegians, and had the 2nd fastest split.
--"The team of Texas prep Diamond Dixon (54.3), Stacey-Ann Smith (52.1) of Texas, North Dakota high schooler Laura Roesler (52.3) and Regina George (52.5) of Arkansas zipped to a 3:31.20, the fastest junior time in the world this year."
--(by the way, the other prep on that team, Diamond Dixon, just won the Big 12 400m title in 51.09. Regina George just won the SEC title in 51.83. )

Laura ran all these great sprint times, while:
1/ also training for the 800m
2/ running in ND, where the weather is much colder than Calif or Texas, and winters much longer.
3/ running against much weaker competition
If she had been training exclusively as a sprinter in a warm weather state, we could have reasonably expected even faster times from her.

Also she routinely has the fastest splits on the Oregon relay team, even though she trains for the 800m.
The girl has speed.
So please take that argument off the table, and find some more reasonable arguments to make your case (as think as it might be - haha)
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Re: Which event for Laura Roesler? [split]

Postby Master Po » Tue May 15, 2012 3:05 pm

I want to assert -- with all confidence -- that I have no idea which is her best event. I mean that and I won't be persuaded otherwise until perhaps her career is over, and perhaps not even then. But I am enjoying reading this thread, as Roesler's career development is really interesting.

All I can add is some stats and trivia:

Some of this is already reported, but these are, I think, her prep bests:

11.90 (2008)
24.01 (2008 or 2009)
53.25 (2010)
2:03.08 (2008)

As for her state championship record, it's pretty damn impressive, even for the small and frozen pond of North Dakota. (Also, because it's a small pond, it's possible for 7th-8th grade athletes to participate in the state meet.) Thus:

2005 (7)
400m, 1st; 800m, 5th
2006 (8)
100m, 1st; 200m, 1st; 400m, 1st; 800m, 1st
2007 (9)
100m, 1st; 200m, 1st; 400m, 1st; 800m, 1st
2008 (10)
100m, 1st; 200m, 1st; 400m, 1st; 800m, 1st
2009 (11)
100m, 1st; 200m, 1st; 400m, 1st; 800m, 1st
2010 (12)
100m, 2nd; 200m, 1st; 400m, 1st; 800m, 1st.

So -- assuming I can add -- that's 20 state t&f championships. Adding the xc titles below, it's 22 state titles.

XC (4km)
2004-2005 (7-8): 2nd
2006-2007 (9-10): 1st
2008 (11): 50th
2009 (12): 5th

fwiw -- not that there's any way of comparing anything -- her fastest time at the state xc champs was 2006, with a 14:33.

Also, in the interests of Roesler-related trivia, the athlete who "de-throned" Roesler in the 2010 state 100m championships was then-9th grader Morgan Milbrath, who returned to the ND state t&f meet last year as a sophomore and won the titles at 100/200/400. Her bests (that I can find) are 11.87/24.32/56.02. Stay tuned for the 2012 ND state t&f championships.

Finally, in the interests of Roesler-family-t&f-trivia, Laura Roesler's sister, Emily, who competes for ND State as heptathlete, scored 4124 in the Summit League championships last weekend.
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Re: Which event for Laura Roesler? [split]

Postby gh » Tue May 15, 2012 3:24 pm

Jacksf wrote:26mi235,
I think it is really unfair and ridiculous of you to constantly dismiss Laura Roesler's speed.....
Also she routinely has the fastest splits on the Oregon relay team, even though she trains for the 800m.
The girl has speed.
So please take that argument off the table, and find some more reasonable arguments to make your case (as think as it might be - haha)


After watching her closely in 3 races this weekend (including one in which she did not have the fastest split on the Oregon team and got her hat handed to her on the anchor by hurdler Georganne Moline, allow me to repeat my contention that any future she has is in the 800 (and her future there could be good). You can believe all the 1/2/4 times you want, but you don't have to be an eagle-eye to see that she simply doesn't have the turnover to make it as a big-time quartermiler. (this is one of those things where I'd love to be proved wrong, but that's the lay of the land as I see it)
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Re: Which event for Laura Roesler? [split]

Postby slowjo » Tue May 15, 2012 3:30 pm

I know nothing really about Laura but threads like this make me grateful to have run in the pre-historic age.

And since most of you are in the same age bracket...can you imagine going on the internet and coming upon a thread like this about you? It must feel surreal. Okay well you coud not have gone on the internets becasue Al had not invented it yet but you get what I mean I hope.

And I am quite sure most of the athletes DO read this stuff.
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Re: Which event for Laura Roesler? [split]

Postby Blues » Tue May 15, 2012 3:50 pm

Jacksf wrote:26mi235,

Also she routinely has the fastest splits on the Oregon relay team, even though she trains for the 800m.
The girl has speed.


To be fair to the other ladies on the Ducks' 4x4 team, Roesler hasn't had the fastest splits in Oregon's most recent and most important 4x4 races so far this year. Francis and Okodogbe both ran faster splits at the Penn Relays, and at least Francis ran faster at PAC-12's.. (Not sure what Okodogbe's split was at PAC-12's, but she ran a very nice sub 52 leg at Penn to make up much of the ground that the 57 sec. lead off leg lost). It'll be interesting to see how they compare at NCAA's.
Last edited by Blues on Tue May 15, 2012 4:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Which event for Laura Roesler? [split]

Postby 26mi235 » Tue May 15, 2012 4:01 pm

Jack, I am not dismissing LR's speed and she is actually an athlete I admire very highly, more highly than many athletes that are absolutely better in one or two events. I thin her range is FABULOUS and I very much appreciate how rare her talent is and her dedication like is also.

I am saying that she does not have the wheels of someone who has blown into the event (400) on wings this spring [she is the leading collegiate 400 runner (and on a track that is likely 0.2+ slower than those her competitors have set their marks) on and I did not know who she was until this weekend and got to see her four or five times]. She could possibly have an Olympic Gold Medal come August (4x400), something LR will not have any realistic shot at. Saying that she does not have those wheels is in no way demeaning and, while we know LR has lasted quite a while already and likely will be around for a while (if I am lucky), I have no way of knowing if Spencer will last.
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Re: Which event for Laura Roesler? [split]

Postby Jacksf » Tue May 15, 2012 4:08 pm

gh wrote:
After watching her closely in 3 races this weekend (including one in which she did not have the fastest split on the Oregon team and got her hat handed to her on the anchor by hurdler Georganne Moline, allow me to repeat my contention that any future she has is in the 800 (and her future there could be good). You can believe all the 1/2/4 times you want, but you don't have to be an eagle-eye to see that she simply doesn't have the turnover to make it as a big-time quartermiler. (this is one of those things where I'd love to be proved wrong, but that's the lay of the land as I see it)


I saw her at the Pepsi Invitational and she beat Kamaria Brown of A&M on the final leg, who is the Big 12 indoor 200m champ (22.86 meet record).
So I guess everyone sees and believes what they want to see and believe!

Meanwhile, this statement is almost heresy: "You can believe all the 1/2/4 times you want, but..."
Times don't lie. That's what track is all about!
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Re: Which event for Laura Roesler? [split]

Postby Jacksf » Tue May 15, 2012 4:19 pm

26mi235 wrote:Jack, I am not dismissing LR's speed and she is actually an athlete I admire very highly, more highly than many athletes that are absolutely better in one or two events. I thin her range is FABULOUS and I very much appreciate how rare her talent is and her dedication like is also.

I am saying that she does not have the wheels of someone who has blown into the event (400) on wings this spring [she is the leading collegiate 400 runner (and on a track that is likely 0.2+ slower than those her competitors have set their marks) on and I did not know who she was until this weekend and got to see her four or five times]. She could possibly have an Olympic Gold Medal come August (4x400), something LR will not have any realistic shot at. Saying that she does not have those wheels is in no way demeaning and, while we know LR has lasted quite a while already and likely will be around for a while (if I am lucky), I have no way of knowing if Spencer will last.


Actually you did say that her speed was basically ordinary.

But anyway, here's the thing - you keep saying that Laura doesn't have the potential to be world class in the 400m. And Gary basically saying the same thing, that she isn't fast enough to be 'big time'.
But where's your argument to say that she can be world class or big time in the 800m.
It's her event for now. She is training for it with some of the best runners in the country, and one of the top schools in the country, and she's still a 2:05 runner.
Where's the big time, world class potential there?!
I'm not saying she has Olympic potential in the 400m. I'm just saying that's her better event.
And I think I've made a good case for it.
On the 800m side, I haven't seen any case made for her 800m potential, other than you think she's too slow for the 400m.
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Re: Which event for Laura Roesler? [split]

Postby preston » Tue May 15, 2012 6:11 pm

gh wrote:After watching her closely in 3 races this weekend (including one in which she did not have the fastest split on the Oregon team and got her hat handed to her on the anchor by hurdler Georganne Moline, allow me to repeat my contention that any future she has is in the 800 (and her future there could be good). You can believe all the 1/2/4 times you want, but you don't have to be an eagle-eye to see that she simply doesn't have the turnover to make it as a big-time quartermiler. (this is one of those things where I'd love to be proved wrong, but that's the lay of the land as I see it)

gh, you let me down. :( Do you not get the fact that though Roesler MIGHT HAVE BEEN A SPRINTER IF SHE CONTINUED TO SPRINT AT AGE 16...she's been training as an 800m runner; that's what she is now. Of Course the #1 400h'r in collegiate track and field and world leader up until about a week ago would have more turnover! Plus, let's just negate the fact that Moline was exercising a sprint stimulus all weekend while Roesler was expressing a mid-distance stimulus... I'm shocked that you would even write such a thing. You're the editor for chrissakes! You're supposed to be the last stop to sanity on this board and a post like that shows you're clearly off the deep end. What's a guy to believe in now? :mrgreen: How many 1500m do you think Moline ran over the last 2 years? And Moline, who might one day be called on to move up to the 800m if the usual suspects on this board have their way :roll: , was a 43 hurdler coming out of high school. Moline is a sprinter! But, if you train a sprinter like a distance runner for 6 years <*cough "Roesler" cough*> eventually any turnover they had will cease to exist.

Also, it's been said over and over throughout this thread but Roesler was training to go the Olympic trials as an 800m runner in 2008. She used the sprint races as her speedwork but she was trained as an 800m runner. As an 800m runner. As an 800m runner. As an 800m runner. I don't know how many times it can be written before you guys actually internalize that she WAS NOT TRAINED TO BE A SPRINTER IN HIGH SCHOOL she just happened to be faster than everybody so they ran the races as her speedwork*.

I'm not saying that she wouldn't have ended up as an 800m runner (see: Miles, J; Quirot, A; Rainey, M; countless RUS); I'm just saying that MORE time should have been spent developing her absolute speed, especially when she was faster than most of America's sprinters when she was 16.
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Re: Which event for Laura Roesler? [split]

Postby 26mi235 » Tue May 15, 2012 6:29 pm

Not having 51.02 wheels does not imply her speed is 'ordinary', and I did not say it was ordinary (neither did I say anything about the 16-year speed of S..., just her FR emergence, not (nearly?) as high a profile as Diane Dixon, who she now marginally outranks for 1st prior to Regionals).

I had said a fair bit earlier that I thought her 400 speed was good enough that she might make world-class level in the 800 (going through at 57 is not going to max her out, although it might not be feasible to go the next 400 at the slightly slower pace to be world-class).

She might be better at the 400 than at the 800, but in that case it is as much because she cannot get the 800 time down the next couple of steps (2:03 => 2:01 => 1:59) rather than that she is even better (50-low or 49-high) at 400. I am not sure what her training is like, but I would guess that it is not 'pure' 800 but a mix of 800 and 400, since she has an important role on a good 4x400 team in an event that swings points at NCAAs.

People like guru have a better understanding of the particulars of women 400 runners of this age and probably the 800 as well.

In summary, I generally agree with gh.

As for a new post "Do you not get the fact that though Roesler MIGHT HAVE BEEN A SPRINTER IF SHE CONTINUED TO SPRINT AT AGE 16...s"

I think that she has had plenty of training for 400, just not exclusively 400 but I highly doubt it has been neglected. S went from LR's times to 51.02 overnight and LR has had enough training doing sprints to have accessed those capabilities if they were there. Given how early she developed I do not think that substantially higher level of speed would have suddenly come out at 17 or 18 or 19 if only she had worked on 'half-distance' down (distances down are halves 800/400/200 ...) more fully than she did. She definitely has NOT trained as a 800/1500 runner but as a 800/400 runner. Her 100 times indicate that she has no chance to be world-class at the very short end, speed is more basic than that and she has good speed but is not a short sprinter even though she had some opportunity to try it.
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Re: Which event for Laura Roesler? [split]

Postby Jacksf » Tue May 15, 2012 8:32 pm

26mi235 wrote:Not having 51.02 wheels does not imply her speed is 'ordinary', and I did not say it was ordinary


Actually, you said it at least twice!

"Her speed wheels . . . are pretty ordinary for a long sprinter."
"...in the 400 where her speed is relatively ordinary"

...about a girl who is anchoring one of the best 4x400m teams in the country, while training for the 800m;
who was the 9th fastest 400m HSer in country;
who was the 25th fastest 200m HSer in the country.
who hasn't had the chance to develop her wheels any further.

Who knows how fast she would be in the 400m if she were training for it?!
Some of her 400m HS contemporaries are doing quite well. Maybe she would have too.
Diamond Dixon ran 52.95 in HS (now down to 51.09 this wkend)
Roesler ran 53.25 in HS that same year.
Not a big difference.
But you and Gary would have us believe that her speed is 'ordinary' or inadequate for the 400m.
Shame on you!

I hope after this Olympic year, if Laura doesn't have a break through in the 800m, the coaches at least give her a chance to see what she can do at 400m.
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Re: Which event for Laura Roesler? [split]

Postby 26mi235 » Tue May 15, 2012 9:08 pm

What part of 'for a long sprinter' do you not understand? SRR is a long sprinter; she just ran an early-season 10.89w. That is huge speed for a long sprinter, even one as fast as SRR. But she had plenty of years running sprints and was not getting faster than 12/24.x She was not Fast for a long sprinter -- so she has ordinary speed for a long sprinter. She has better speed for an 800 gal (better than ordinary for a mid-distance runner, like Vessey has, if that rings a bell).

Ordinary speed for a long sprinter ~~ above ordinary for an 800 runner. And her speed is mediocre for a short sprinter.

But, it is not like she never ran a sprint races, she ran dozens of them, probably many dozens of them. She did not train for those by running 50 miles/week. She trained across the range from 100 the 800 and did the 1600 because she was a cut above everyone else athletically. Note than when another good 12/24 sprinter showed up, she actually came in second.
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Re: Which event for Laura Roesler? [split]

Postby 26mi235 » Tue May 15, 2012 9:27 pm

I guess I do not get what is the basis for the assumption that she is going to be a really fast sprinter if she would just train to be a sprinter. 1) you do not know how she is training; 2) we do know that she has been a key element of the 4x400, so I infer from that fact that she is being trained to enhance her ability to run (repeated) 400r races while also running a couple of 800s; 3) If her coaches thought she would be better at 400 than 800, the depth in the 800 would lead them to use her more for the 400 (or 200, ...) --- but they have not. WHY, from a distance, not knowing what she is doing etc., do you think you know a lot more than the coaches that have been working with her for several years?

I do not hear. "I think that there is a 10% chance that if she trained solely as a 200/400 (long) sprinter she would be better at the 400 than she will be at the 800." Instead, we get what seems to be 'certainty', no question about it rather than a modest possibility (and modest must be constrained from being very large by the observation that those who know a lot more do not seem to think so).
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Re: Which event for Laura Roesler? [split]

Postby preston » Wed May 16, 2012 6:20 am

26mi235,

Repeatedly it has been said, and articles have been provided, that PROVE that Roesler was NOT trained as a sprinter. Laura's mother, who coached both Laura and Laura’s high school coach, is a distance runner; young Laura (and high school Laura according to what I’ve read) ran road races, cross country and did mileage, etc – something that you wouldn't see sprinters doing. Yet, you continue to ask for proof that she was trained as an 800m runner, though you can provide none of your own that she WAS trained like a sprinter – even in the face of the existence of evidence to the contrary. What we can infer (dangerously) because of the limited information available is that she was trained as a mid-distance runner. Period! Stop saying otherwise unless you have proof or a link.

You’re a distance runner and though that hasn't precluded you from being an extreme fan of track and field and the multi-events that you have proven that you are – in addition to doing some officiating – your perception of the sprints, in particular, is wrong. I am giving you the benefit of the doubt in assuming that your suggestions that Roesler was doing sprint training in high school and that she does sprint training in college is due to [your] distance runners belief that anything shorter than their core event is sprint training. It doesn’t work like that; distance runners often see “speed” training as “sprint” training and they are not remotely linked.

You also have this replacement "Eldrick" thing working and it’s not necessarily good. If it’s not wind calculations that used to be a guide but you’ve now decided will be the “law of sprint equivalencies”, then it’s this obsessiveness about “slow” tracks and “fast tracks”. But, you won’t stop there. You “infer” that because she runs on the 4x4 before that she actually does training for it…un*******believable! On many of the nation’s w4x4 teams there is a woman who runs the 800m and they don’t train for it, they just happen to be the 4th best 400m relay runner. No sensible person would see Roesler running a 1500m during the season and say that she’s doing sprint training. And, that’s why this entire conversation has become unnecessarily tiring, because you don't understand the basics of sprint training. If you want to help yourself, and this thread, you can start here http://www.nacactfca.org/Shaver%20-%20S ... aining.pdf Page 54 is a good starting point. You will see that young Laura HAS NOT been doing sprint training. Not in high school; not in college. Not ever!

I re-read through this entire thread and repeatedly the point has been made by me and others that Roesler could have been a sprinter on the college level and possibly even on the elite level; and we’ve shown you and the others that Roesler’s trajectory at age 16 shared the arc of being a top sprinter - had she been given the opportunity that her "sprint peers" had. It was shown that she was as fast as most of the Jamaican sprinters that have had gold, silver and bronze medals hung around their necks at World Champs and Olympics but you still say that her speed is ordinary because she’s been training as a mid-distance runner for the last 6 years. It was also shown that she was as fast as the top American sprinters, but you dismiss it out of hand. FWIW, 1:59 has been broken by women 1,673 times while 50 seconds has been broken by women 434 times. If you raise1:59 1 minute to 1:59.99 the number is probably near 2800. Do you or anyone else seriously want to debate that those times are equal? This is a point that “Powell” made pages ago, but you and others refuse to acknowledge other posters points.

I don’t mind good debate but you’ve been particularly close-minded and obtuse in this thread. What is most insulting is that you clearly have less of a grasp on sprinting, sprint training, and sprint coaching than the people you are debating yet you continue to arrogantly push your point as if you have to be proven wrong - when you don't even recognize that you already have been proven wrong.
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Re: Which event for Laura Roesler? [split]

Postby enpsalmx » Wed May 16, 2012 8:10 am

preston wrote:26mi235,

Repeatedly it has been said, and articles have been provided, that PROVE that Roesler was NOT trained as a sprinter. Laura's mother, who coached both Laura and Laura’s high school coach, is a distance runner; young Laura (and high school Laura according to what I’ve read) ran road races, cross country and did mileage, etc – something that you wouldn't see sprinters doing. Yet, you continue to ask for proof that she was trained as an 800m runner, though you can provide none of your own that she WAS trained like a sprinter – even in the face of the existence of evidence to the contrary. What we can infer (dangerously) because of the limited information available is that she was trained as a mid-distance runner. Period! Stop saying otherwise unless you have proof or a link.

You’re a distance runner and though that hasn't precluded you from being an extreme fan of track and field and the multi-events that you have proven that you are – in addition to doing some officiating – your perception of the sprints, in particular, is wrong. I am giving you the benefit of the doubt in assuming that your suggestions that Roesler was doing sprint training in high school and that she does sprint training in college is due to [your] distance runners belief that anything shorter than their core event is sprint training. It doesn’t work like that; distance runners often see “speed” training as “sprint” training and they are not remotely linked.

You also have this replacement "Eldrick" thing working and it’s not necessarily good. If it’s not wind calculations that used to be a guide but you’ve now decided will be the “law of sprint equivalencies”, then it’s this obsessiveness about “slow” tracks and “fast tracks”. But, you won’t stop there. You “infer” that because she runs on the 4x4 before that she actually does training for it…un*******believable! On many of the nation’s w4x4 teams there is a woman who runs the 800m and they don’t train for it, they just happen to be the 4th best 400m relay runner. No sensible person would see Roesler running a 1500m during the season and say that she’s doing sprint training. And, that’s why this entire conversation has become unnecessarily tiring, because you don't understand the basics of sprint training. If you want to help yourself, and this thread, you can start here http://www.nacactfca.org/Shaver%20-%20S ... aining.pdf Page 54 is a good starting point. You will see that young Laura HAS NOT been doing sprint training. Not in high school; not in college. Not ever!

I re-read through this entire thread and repeatedly the point has been made by me and others that Roesler could have been a sprinter on the college level and possibly even on the elite level; and we’ve shown you and the others that Roesler’s trajectory at age 16 shared the arc of being a top sprinter - had she been given the opportunity that her "sprint peers" had. It was shown that she was as fast as most of the Jamaican sprinters that have had gold, silver and bronze medals hung around their necks at World Champs and Olympics but you still say that her speed is ordinary because she’s been training as a mid-distance runner for the last 6 years. It was also shown that she was as fast as the top American sprinters, but you dismiss it out of hand. FWIW, 1:59 has been broken by women 1,673 times while 50 seconds has been broken by women 434 times. If you raise1:59 1 minute to 1:59.99 the number is probably near 2800. Do you or anyone else seriously want to debate that those times are equal? This is a point that “Powell” made pages ago, but you and others refuse to acknowledge other posters points.

I don’t mind good debate but you’ve been particularly close-minded and obtuse in this thread. What is most insulting is that you clearly have less of a grasp on sprinting, sprint training, and sprint coaching than the people you are debating yet you continue to arrogantly push your point as if you have to be proven wrong - when you don't even recognize that you already have been proven wrong.


It is not too late for Laura to change her major event emphasis if it is in the cards for her to do so. Interestingly enough her teammate Phyllis Francis ran the 400, 600 and 800 meters exclusively in high school and now is a top 200-400 runner in the NCAA. She even leads off for the 4x1! Ms. Francis' shift has come over the past two seasons so perhaps her success suggests that Laura still has options.
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Re: Which event for Laura Roesler? [split]

Postby 26mi235 » Wed May 16, 2012 8:58 am

enpsalmx wrote:It is not too late for Laura to change her major event emphasis if it is in the cards for her to do so. Interestingly enough her teammate Phyllis Francis ran the 400, 600 and 800 meters exclusively in high school and now is a top 200-400 runner in the NCAA. She even leads off for the 4x1! Ms. Francis' shift has come over the past two seasons so perhaps her success suggests that Laura still has options.


But in this case we have the more natural situation where the more knowledgeable college coaches see things and can make things work where coaches on the prior level won't have the expertise (plus, time is on their side). For LR, it goes a bit in the other direction. I am not saying it is beyond 'reasonability' for her to be better at, say, 400 (although the shorter sprints see to be too fast for her).

But Preston, et al, can you tell me why her rather high-level coaches see her one way and you seemingly know better? You seem to know a lot about her and be sure about what you say is her training history but I feel like I am not getting any insight to why these knowledgeable coaches, with detailed knowledge of her workouts and how she responds to them, are getting this wrong. It is not like they need her to fill the 800 hole in the lineup (they have several) or that they do not 'know' how to recognize and work with sprinters. We are talking about the top tier of collegiate coaches that are winning national titles.
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Re: Which event for Laura Roesler? [split]

Postby preston » Wed May 16, 2012 9:51 am

26mi235 wrote:...For LR, it goes a bit in the other direction. I am not saying it is beyond 'reasonability' for her to be better at, say, 400 (although the shorter sprints see to be too fast for her).

But Preston, et al, can you tell me why her rather high-level coaches see her one way and you seemingly know better? You seem to know a lot about her and be sure about what you say is her training history but I feel like I am not getting any insight to why these knowledgeable coaches, with detailed knowledge of her workouts and how she responds to them, are getting this wrong. It is not like they need her to fill the 800 hole in the lineup (they have several) or that they do not 'know' how to recognize and work with sprinters. We are talking about the top tier of collegiate coaches that are winning national titles.

Now, you're being patronizing, again. I never said that I know better than her "high-level" coaches; I said that had she continued sprinting at the age of 16 that she may have become a top sprinter. Which also would answer you saying, again, "the shorter sprints see [sic] to be too fast for her".

Would you say that shorter sprints were too fast for her at age 16 when she ran 11.90, 24.30 and 53.25?
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Re: Which event for Laura Roesler? [split]

Postby gh » Wed May 16, 2012 10:09 am

preston wrote:... I'm shocked that you would even write such a thing. You're the editor for chrissakes! You're supposed to be the last stop to sanity on this board...


Thanks for helping me be a better editor. Now that I understand that if I agree with your position I'm a good editor and if I disagree then I'm a bad editor it makes things so much simpler.
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Re: Which event for Laura Roesler? [split]

Postby preston » Wed May 16, 2012 10:21 am

gh wrote:
preston wrote:... I'm shocked that you would even write such a thing. You're the editor for chrissakes! You're supposed to be the last stop to sanity on this board...


Thanks for helping me be a better editor. Now that I understand that if I agree with your position I'm a good editor and if I disagree then I'm a bad editor it makes things so much simpler.

Now, there's a joke you took way too seriously. :?
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Re: Which event for Laura Roesler? [split]

Postby 26mi235 » Wed May 16, 2012 11:00 am

preston wrote:Now, you're being patronizing, again. I never said that I know better than her "high-level" coaches; I said that had she continued sprinting at the age of 16 that she may have become a top sprinter. Which also would answer you saying, again, "the shorter sprints see [sic] to be too fast for her".

Would you say that shorter sprints were too fast for her at age 16 when she ran 11.90, 24.30 and 53.25?


I do not understand the 'patronizing' term. Repeatedly questioning her not doing the sprints certainly seems to the reader (e.g., me) like you think you know better. Your comments here in that regard does clarify your positions.

Do you think that focusing on the 800 (for an exciting possibility which she probably did not have for the 100/200/400) was a mistake for a teenager? Is all lost because she 'went long' for a couple of years at age 16; it would seem like great sprint speed would reassert itself quickly if trained for?

Finally, is she more 'inclined' to being a mid-distance runner than to being a sprinter [since you seem to know a lot of her detailed history, you might know/have insight]? People do have preferences, and maybe hers is to run the 800 and not the sprints; she will do it for the team, but her love is the 800.

[PS 1) was the 11.90 wind-aided?, 2) I have a broken arm and typing is difficult, slow, and error prone as I hit unintended letters and others do not register....]
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Re: Which event for Laura Roesler? [split]

Postby gh » Wed May 16, 2012 11:51 am

preston wrote:
gh wrote:
preston wrote:... I'm shocked that you would even write such a thing. You're the editor for chrissakes! You're supposed to be the last stop to sanity on this board...


Thanks for helping me be a better editor. Now that I understand that if I agree with your position I'm a good editor and if I disagree then I'm a bad editor it makes things so much simpler.

Now, there's a joke you took way too seriously. :?


No i didn't, but you did!
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Re: Which event for Laura Roesler? [split]

Postby preston » Wed May 16, 2012 12:00 pm

26, I don't have any additional "insight" on Laura Roesler that I haven't read in articles that are available to anyone. My insight comes from combing through results of athletes for years and recognizing what talent looks like. I THINK there was a rush to make her the next Mary Decker that has NOTHING to do with Lananna or Oregon (trust me, there are plenty of kids in Jamaica that should be running the 800m but see themselves as 100/200m runners). She grew up and was inspired to be the distance queen that America wants/craves. I'm sure that both the 800 and 1500 were in the cards. So it's hard to say that focussing on the 800m was a mistake. She had just made the USOT final as a sophomore, it would be a no-brainer! However, had Roesler grown up in another country they MAY have had her more 4 with occasional 8 races as opposed to now where she runs 15's. So, yes, I think focussing on the 8 as a teenager was a mistake; its not like she was going to move up immediately to the 1500.

I think Roesler, had she developed her speed [more] first, could have been an exceptional 800m runner in the vein of Quirot, Miles-Clark, Rainey-Valmon and others who began as sprinter/400m runners. Quirot was sub-50 as was Miles as was the current WR. Rainey-Valmon ran 51.46 on Penn's track in 1990. Had she continued as a 400m runner I'm pretty sure she would have eventually run sub-50. Even Jelimo was a 51 second 400m runner before the switch. And, I think that Roesler ha-d/s that type of "sprint" ability - which means that she could have dominated at the NCAA level and run successfully as a pro, though championships medals would have been a challenge. I still think she can be good/great, I just think she is going to need more speed if her intent was to challenge records like a Jelimo. (btw, I just looked, Roesler was as fast as Quirot at the same age. Quirot ran 53.74 at age 15 in 1978 but didn't set her next 400m PB until 1982 when she was 19, 52.61. Quirot wouldn't run her PB 23.07 until 1988 And, she wasn't running 800m yet, I don't think.).

But...

There is no denying that the speed that Roesler ha-s/d compared well with the top sprinters the world over. There is little to suggest, based upon her progression AT THAT TIME, that she couldn't be as good. Yes that would/could have put her in the sub-11.30, sub-23, sub-51 group rather easily. And, maybe the sub-11, sub-22, sub-49. We'll never know now.

But, let me leave you with this: Ivet Lalova of Bulgaria ran 11.72/24.03 at age 17! Less than 3 years later she was under 11.15 and 23.00 seconds! Her PB today stands at 10.96/22.51 (I'm not counting her 10.77)http://www.iaaf.org/athletes/biographies/letter=l/country=bul/athcode=183664/index.html

gh wrote:No i didn't, but you did!

Can you find it in your heart to forgive me. :lol:
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Re: Which event for Laura Roesler? [split]

Postby EPelle » Wed May 16, 2012 2:30 pm

MS: Did you do much sprint and speed work during the season, especially considering you ran many 100, 200 and 400m races?
LR: I do sometimes, but mostly I just run my middle distance workouts, which are very fast anyways, so it is pretty much speed work.

http://usa.milesplit.com/articles/19033

How many miles/week do you run in the fall? And in the spring?
I’m not quite sure of my mileage. I just usually go out and do what my coach tells us. [Coach Svalson: The girls usually go out for a 5-6 mile run once or twice a week, one day in the pool, one day of speed and one of intervals. We tried to do back-to-back hard days to prepare for the Trials.]


You are being compared to Mary Decker (uhoh, do you know who that is?) -- is hers a path you'd like to follow, or would you prefer to blaze your own trail?
I don’t know a whole lot about Mary Decker but I think I would rather go my own way and be referred to as “Laura Roesler” and not “The Next Mary Decker.” One thing I would like to follow is her success. She set many records and I’m sure was a fierce competitor. I would like to be remembered like that some day too.

http://runningtimes.com/Article.aspx?ArticleID=13711

Training and more training
Training a champion is a team sport. “We’ve really been blessed with good help over the years,” says Karen, a phys-ed teacher, former runner and longtime exerciser at Sanford Fitness Center in Fargo.

For Laura, keys to success have included exercising safely, adding variety and setting goals. Sanford Sports Medicine has been pleased to play a part:

  • Laura attended Speed-Strength camp in eighth grade.
  • Two years later she participated in Winter Sprint camp led by Brett Beil, Sanford exercise specialist.
  • Last summer she and Brett worked one-on-one, focusing on strength to improve stride.

http://www.sanfordhealth.org/stories/vi ... d9eb43168f

DGW: What does a typical week of training look like for you during the track season?
LR:A typical week for me is usually 3 hard workouts, 3 days of easy running or in the pool and one rest day. My easy runs are not very long, so the mileage is pretty low and for workouts I do a little of both speed and distance work.


DGW: You've been a national-level runner since your freshman year and you've continued to improve year after year. What do you attribute to your growth as a runner to?
LR: I would say staying healthy and being smart about my training. After each season I take a month off of absolutely nothing just to get a mental and emotional break and recharge my batteries. I also enjoy everything I do, workouts, races, traveling because if it weren’t fun for me I wouldn’t be where I am today. The past couple of years I have done a little more lifting in the winter/off season and that’s when I do my sprinting work also. The intensity and difficulty of my workouts have definitely increased over time as well.


When I first started, I did a lot more distance races, and eighth grade was when I really started sprinting. Since then my sprinting has gotten gradually better and I’ve set many pr’s this season alone. My 800 time has probably dropped the most since I started and I look forward to keep getting better next year.


DGW: You seemed to start off as a sprinter, and continue to run 100m-400m during the season. Why so much focus on the sprints when you've had so much success at the 800m+ distances?
LR: I really do the sprints as workouts, to just keep building on and helping my 800, but I have also had a good amount of success in them, especially the 400. This year I have done distances above and below the 800, which will really help later in the summer meets. I also don’t run the 800 a whole lot during the regular season, so I do not over-race it and am tired by the time the summer season starts.

http://www.runnerspace.com/blogs.php?bl ... z1v4abv0Ca
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Re: Which event for Laura Roesler? [split]

Postby Daisy » Wed May 16, 2012 2:55 pm

EPelle wrote:
MS: Did you do much sprint and speed work during the season, especially considering you ran many 100, 200 and 400m races?
LR: I do sometimes, but mostly I just run my middle distance workouts, which are very fast anyways, so it is pretty much speed work.

http://usa.milesplit.com/articles/19033

So no speed work?
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Re: Which event for Laura Roesler? [split]

Postby Blues » Wed May 16, 2012 2:57 pm

26mi235 wrote:
[PS 1) was the 11.90 wind-aided?, 2) I have a broken arm and typing is difficult, slow, and error prone as I hit unintended letters and others do not register....]


I'm more inclined to agree with your stance on Laura Roesler 26... She's a very talented young athlete, but it seems to me that she has the ability to reach a more elite level in the 800 with the proper training, coaching, and dedication. Recently she's been splitting high 52 to 53 in the 4x4, even when pushed. I see 800 guys like Michael Preble, Joey Roberts, Casimir Loxsom, etc. routinely running low to mid 46 splits or better on their teams' 4x4's. It seems hard to believe that training for the 8 could hurt their 400 speed so much that they'd all be running 44 splits if they trained for the short sprints instead, but I guess there's no way to tell.... Naturally there are other variable factors besides her 800m training that can influence Laura Roesler's progression in each event also.

And since you mentioned Laura's high school 11.90, at the North Dakota State Meet in 2008, Laura ran her 11.90 in the prelims, with the benefit of a +6.1 tailwind. She then won the finals in 12.07, with a +3.2 tailwind. Her 24.30 win in the 200 in the same meet was also aided by a +2.3 tailwind. The following year, in 2009, Laura's season bests were 12.41 and 24.66.
.
http://nd.milesplit.com/meets/37218/results/68603/print
Last edited by Blues on Wed May 16, 2012 3:24 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Which event for Laura Roesler? [split]

Postby EPelle » Wed May 16, 2012 3:07 pm

Daisy wrote:
EPelle wrote:
MS: Did you do much sprint and speed work during the season, especially considering you ran many 100, 200 and 400m races?
LR: I do sometimes, but mostly I just run my middle distance workouts, which are very fast anyways, so it is pretty much speed work.

http://usa.milesplit.com/articles/19033

So no speed work?

It appears in that particular instance, much of her work was faster turnover, although she is quoted elsewhere as stating she did her sprint training in the winter months.
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Re: Which event for Laura Roesler? [split]

Postby gh » Wed May 16, 2012 3:44 pm

Blues wrote:[...
And since you mentioned Laura's high school 11.90, at the North Dakota State Meet in 2008, Laura ran her 11.90 in the prelims, with the benefit of a +6.1 tailwind. She then won the finals in 12.07, with a +3.2 tailwind. ...


So in other words, her quoted 11.9 speed is (well, was) more like 12.2.
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