UNC three to NBA

[DrJay]

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/b ... &eref=sihp

I'm kinda getting sick of college basketball, and not just because the Heels lost. This is not what it should be about.

[bambam]

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/basketball/ncaa/03/29/UNC.Draft.ap/index.html?sct=hp_t2_a2&eref=sihp

I'm kinda getting sick of college basketball, and not just because the Heels lost. This is not what it should be about.

Not only that but Zeller leaves as a senior, and I just saw on ESPN that James Michael McAdoo is projected to be the highest draft choice of any UNC player, if he goes. Not much left if that happens.

It is getting rather stupid.

[DrJay]

McAdoo probably has the most potential of any of the Heels right now.

Why couldn't these guys sit down together and say, "Wow, we had some misfortune with injuries this year (McDonald, Strickland, Henson, Marshall), we came nowhere near accomplishing what we could have. We're part of a storied program, a legendary program, part of a "family" (see MULTIPLE pages of discussion about this "family" tradition in Adam Lucas's book, "Carolina Basketball: A Century of Excellence".) Let's all stay, let's show everyone, let's do what UNC did in 2009." Instead, they sat down and Barnes said, "$$$$, and $$$$, maybe $$$$, so $$$$." Then Henson said, "Yeah, $$$$. What about $$$$? I think $$$$" And Marshall said, "You know, $$$$. A lot of $$$$. Good, that $$$$." And they lived happily ever after.

[Friar]

good, that $$$$

I think it's more than that. The Rivers kid at Duke has never had to concern himself with money (he's obviously atypical).
The faster you can leave the more cred you have. It's almost as if you staying is an admission you are a ham and egger.

Lots of kids xfering. Maybe it's no more than usual but there's been some odd situations having nothing to do with grades, pt, criminal complaints et al.

[dukehjsteve]

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/basketball/ncaa/03/29/UNC.Draft.ap/index.html?sct=hp_t2_a2&eref=sihp

I'm kinda getting sick of college basketball, and not just because the Heels lost. This is not what it should be about.

I'm with you Doc. I still follow Duke BB of course, but it is not the same as it was up until 15 years ago, when the likes of Langdon, Battier, etc. stayed 4 years, to say nothing of earlier guys like Hill, Laettner, Ferry etc.

These guys today don;'t really give a sh*t for Duke ( or UNC or wherever they are) they just want to play for Coach K, Roy, Pitino, etc. for a year then bail out for the dough. If they don't care for Duke,etc. why should I ??!!

The warm fuzzy feeling has been gone for me for quite a while now.

[donley2]

I am not sure the rest of the college basketball world is going to cry crocodile tears for the programs that can consistently recruit the "one and done" folks. I will agree that the trend is not necessarily helpful for college basketball as a whole, but my sympathies for the Duke, NC, Kentucky et al's of the world is pretty darn low.

[DrJay]

I don't want sympathy. I want good players that care about their school and program and stay four years.

[dukehjsteve]

I don't want sympathy. I want good players that care about their school and program and stay four years.

100 % ditto to Doc on this issue.

[Conor Dary]

Illinois finally landed their 6th, or was it 7th, choice for the new BB coach. Apparently the big drawback was having to deal with the lunacy and greed of Chicago HS and AAU coaches, especially the latter. The whole thing is a pretty distasteful operation. Illinois's Mr. Basketball of 2009 went to Illinois for a year, played fairly lousy, but was 'advised' to go try the NBA draft. No one took him. With nowhere to go, he eventually got arrested for a burglary.

Derrick Rose, with the Bulls has shown to be an excellent role model, was ineligible to play at Memphis, the coach then being Kentucky's present coach.

The whole college thing, with a few exceptions, is pretty much one big cesspool.

[Pego]

I am not sure the rest of the college basketball world is going to cry crocodile tears for the programs that can consistently recruit the "one and done" folks. I will agree that the trend is not necessarily helpful for college basketball as a whole, but my sympathies for the Duke, NC, Kentucky et al's of the world is pretty darn low.

I agree 100%. These programs attract/recruit high school superstars that would jump to the NBA immediately, if they could, so how can anybody be surprised if they do it as soon as they can?
In 40 years of following Uof Wisconsin sports, there have been only 2 guys that I recall declaring as underclassmen, Rashard Griffin and Devon Harris.

[donley2]

I don't want sympathy. I want good players that care about their school and program and stay four years.

Can you honestly say, with 100% confidence that if you were in there place you would not leave early. If it was my kid and they were looking at a guaranteed 20million or more I would tell them to leave in a heartbeat.

[dukehjsteve]

I don't want sympathy. I want good players that care about their school and program and stay four years.

Can you honestly say, with 100% confidence that if you were in there place you would not leave early. If it was my kid and they were looking at a guaranteed 20million or more I would tell them to leave in a heartbeat.

Of course you would... I would too. But that does not change my feelings on the issue.

Let's put it this way: Taking my alma mater as an example, I would rather Coach K recruit 2nd echelon HS stars, still super, super players, with the understanding that it's a 4 year deal which is truly the best path for all parties concerned. So Duke now wins 20-23 games a year instead of 30-35. That's fine with me, absolutely. We've got 4 banners. We don't have to play the sh*tbird recruiting game just to get more of them. And I have written Coach K and told him the same thing. Leave the likes of Kyrie Irving, John Wall, Harrison Barnes, etc. to other schools. We /I DON"T WANT 'EM.

[KevinM]

I don't want sympathy. I want good players that care about their school and program and stay four years.

100 % ditto to Doc on this issue.

Oy. Are you really equating going pro with "not caring about the program"? I think there's a (tenuous) argument to be made that it's not a basketball program's best interest to have a lot of guys leaving early, and there's certainly a discussion to be had around the absurd culture surrounding major college sports, but thinking that guys leaving early is the problem is incredibly myopic to me.

[KevinM]

Of course you would... I would too. But that does not change my feelings on the issue.

Let's put it this way: Taking my alma mater as an example, I would rather Coach K recruit 2nd echelon HS stars, still super, super players, with the understanding that it's a 4 year deal which is truly the best path for all parties concerned. So Duke now wins 20-23 games a year instead of 30-35. That's fine with me, absolutely. We've got 4 banners. We don't have to play the sh*tbird recruiting game just to get more of them. And I have written Coach K and told him the same thing. Leave the likes of Kyrie Irving, John Wall, Harrison Barnes, etc. to other schools. We /I DON"T WANT 'EM.

I am not seeing the logic here: It's a choice you would make, you understand why anyone would make the choice, but you somehow think it's a flaw or undesireable? And the shitbird recruiting games were there when almost no one was leaving early.

I think anyone who thinks that the reforms made in track in the 70s and 80s to eliminate faux amateurism were worthwhile should applaud the guys who leave early and be yelling for a more equitable system, not worrying about the folks doing what almost all of us would do, given similar circumstances.

[DrJay]

There's a lot of intangibles here, and I don't want to suffer brain damage at 10 pm on a Friday trying to put pen to paper, so this won't be well-thought out. The tangible thing is obvious. $2,000,000 a year, plus/minus. That's it. That's all.

The intangibles include loyalty, tradition, belief in a cause, belief in an institution--be it a team or a university or shared purpose--sacrifice for a common or greater good, dedication for the sake of doing something great....there are more. Don't laugh at these because they are very real, otherwise why would a 4:50 sophomore miler with little talent crank out 70 mile weeks for two years to try and break his school record of 4:20 as a senior? That wouldn't be for the money, 'cause there ain't no money for running a 4:20 mile. The same things used to drive NCAA basketball players (that and getting the hottest coeds) but that is no longer the case, and we're lamenting the loss of that.

Read any book about the John Wooden days, or the UNC program under Dean Smith. The attitude of the great players under those coaches was that they were part of something bigger than them, that they were continuing an amazing tradition, they were doing something very special for four very short years (alas, sometimes three....Jordan, Worthy, some others, but rarely only one or two years), that they were incredibly lucky to be part of that, it was a gift, and that they never, ever, ever in their lives, never again, would have the chance to be a part of something similar. Not on an NBA team, not in the corporate world, not even raising their own familes. That has gone by the wayside now, despite the lip service given it by players like Kendall Marshall etc They don't really get it. Playing NCAA basketball is no longer an end in itself, it's just a brief stopping off point, almost an afterthought, on the way to the NBA and riches. As my roommate from UNC put it yesterday in an email, "The great days of college hoops are in the past."

http://www.basketball-reference.com/awa ... erica.html

Look at All-American names from the 1970s. We're not going to see many legends like those anymore. Look what the last few years have offered up. UK's John Wall? Don't even think it. Adolph Rupp would roll over in his grave--no, he would come back to life--if anyone dared compare him to Dan Issel.

So, I think that's what this is about. Gone also are the days when a Carl Yastrzemski or a Johnny Bench played their entire career with one team, when World Series games were played by the light of day, when NFL games were played in frozen mud, when there were red, white, and blue basketballs and huge afros, when the Boys of Summer drove taxis and worked construction in the off season to pay the bills, when high jumpers like steve landed in sawdust pits. Am I getting off-topic here? Grant us our maudlin laments for the passing of the good old days.

[dukehjsteve]

Well said Doc, so very well said.

As is always true, Money Ruins Everything.

[Conor Dary]

Well said Doc, so very well said.

As is always true, Money Ruins Everything.

Yes, a very good summary Dr. Jay. And money does ruin everything. Almost....

However, I think the Kenyans would disagree in the marathon. And so would I.

[donley2]

Well said Doc, so very well said.

As is always true, Money Ruins Everything.

Money Ruins Everything. For who exactly? Those that already have it?

[KevinM]

Is it money that ruined everything, or the end/reduction of indentured servitude?

You can't be a little bit pregnant. Even the schools and coaches that are held up as the paragons of virtue accept kids that wouldn't have a prayer of getting into their institutions without the help of athletics (maybe the academies are exceptions?). Wooden, like Bear Bryant, had the financial help of boosters to fill his rosters.

Look - I, like you guys, don't like the fact that college athletics are on the precipice of irrelevance. But when I am honest with myself, I come to the conclusion that it might be the right thing.

[donley2]

Despite the fact that I think Calipari is probably a complete sleazeball, my feelings are closer to this.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/w ... ?hpt=hp_t3

[DrJay]

Despite the fact that I think Calipari is probably a complete sleazeball, my feelings are closer to this.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/w ... ?hpt=hp_t3

Well...........Michael Dell should have stayed for four years.

[DrJay]

All five of UK's starters to the NBA, three frosh and two sophomores. Getting ridiculous.

[Conor Dary]

All five of UK's starters to the NBA, three frosh and two sophomores. Getting ridiculous.

Ridiculous is an understatement. And it looks like Kentucky will be just as strong next year.

[preston]

I don't think it's ridiculous, I think it's a career choice. I think more than 5 students will drop out of University of Kentucky this year to begin careers that may ultimately net them more than any of these 5 athletes will make in a lifetime, possibly even combined (and when you factor in that 80% of ball players are broke in the first 5 years...it's a near certainty). Plus, this is an opportunity for the other athletes to step up or be replaced by 5 freshman next year. This is the renewal of life, business, love...it is what it is, but it's not ridiculous.

I'm actually eager to see how long Calipari can keep this up.

[Conor Dary]

It is not ridiculous for the athletes, but for NCAA basketball, it looks pretty silly.

[dukehjsteve]

I think it is just wonderful that these young student-athletes had the fantastic opportunity to have a year of college -level schooling to help them intellectually later in life. I would be delighted to see copies of their grades in the fall semester, their attendance records this second semester, and copies of all the original research term papers I'm sure they had to write in their courses, such as Quantum Mechanics, 17th Century English Literature and Nuclear Engineering.

[DecFan]

C.J. Leslie announces he's not going to the NCAA, but returning to NC State. Will State be the best team in the ACC next year?

[DrJay]

I think it is just wonderful that these young student-athletes had the fantastic opportunity to have a year of college -level schooling to help them intellectually later in life. I would be delighted to see copies of their grades in the fall semester, their attendance records this second semester, and copies of all the original research term papers I'm sure they had to write in their courses, such as Quantum Mechanics, 17th Century English Literature and Nuclear Engineering.

Picky, picky, picky!

[donley2]

I think it is just wonderful that these young student-athletes had the fantastic opportunity to have a year of college -level schooling to help them intellectually later in life. I would be delighted to see copies of their grades in the fall semester, their attendance records this second semester, and copies of all the original research term papers I'm sure they had to write in their courses, such as Quantum Mechanics, 17th Century English Literature and Nuclear Engineering.

Do you actually believe that the starters on the top 25 teams at the end of the year would have signicantly better academic development because they stayed for two or three extra years?

[Master Po]

I realize that everything is always more complicated than any one statement, and I also realize that I am wandering into a thread in which there are expert observers of collegiate and professional basketball, which I am not...so, with those disclaimers in place, here's my question:

Isn't this at least as much -- or more -- an NBA rule about having to be 19yo in order to be drafted, etc.?

I realize all this money and power is in bed together, but in a larger NCAA context, this rule doesn't seem to serve NCAA basketball very well, imo. Let's say Calipari can replicate, or nearly so, this pattern with some consistency. Working within the rules as they are, bringing some sort of prestige to his employer, and facilitating the regular delivery of top draft picks to the NBA. I don't see how this helps the more general NCAA basketball picture very well, and I could see others within the system begin to question the current arrangement -- why not let qualified 18yo athletes contract with the employers who want to hire them, as they can in pretty much any other line of private sector work.

And assuming this is an NBA rule, I wish it would be challenged. If a person is a legal adult (18yo) and capable of entering into all sorts of other contracts and legal arrangements at that age, why should it be the case that one must be 19yo to contract to be employed by an NBA team. If a team wanted to risk its resources on an 18yo, and if the 18yo wished to enter into that contractual arrangement, it seems some extraordinary talent could someday challenge that rule.

But, I don't know anything about money and power. I'd like to have an experience of money, to see if it would ruin me. Right now, it seems like the stress of not having money is pretty much ruinous.