T&FN Favourite Athletes THE RESULTS No1 Haile Gebrselassie

[nianchengyu]

how about JJK HEPw/indiviual marks in 1995,which year she flew a lot comparing to 1994,thank you.And about shuaa in 1999,did she take a hep before 1999 WC or wild card?

[mump boy]

7th- (13 votes, 149 poiints)

Evelyn Ashford
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evelyn_Ashford
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQIT5Fuz ... 6705D2F87A
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4CY4zxHb7gk

Pure Class

[John G]

Google 'masking agents and Nandrolone'. Just because Nandrolone was an old-fashioned steroid it doesn't mean that athletes weren't using it - if they thought they had an effective masking agent they might have risked it. Not accusing anyone - people better qualified than me thought those positives were questionable but there was nothing cut and dried about those cases.

[skiboo]

[I'm not even trying to justify myself, I don't care if she's a mass murderer.

.

Well since you think she's the greatest person ever to walk the earth and you could not care if she was Jefrrey 'Dahmer' personified, you've just blown a huge hole in whatever credibilty your adormation of her may have had.

[trevorp]

7th- (13 votes, 149 poiints)
Evelyn Ashford

Pure Class

That's more like it. My #4 ... and surely not contentious at all.

[Daisy]

7th- (13 votes, 149 poiints)
Evelyn Ashford

Pure Class

That's more like it. My #4 ... and surely not contentious at all.

My number 8.

[Pego]

My #2.

[spvxv0]

7th- (13 votes, 149 poiints)
Evelyn Ashford

Pure Class

That's more like it. My #4 ... and surely not contentious at all.

My number 8.

My #7.

[donley2]

Mump, as one of the champion users of the word "cheat" here I hope you appreciate the irony of such a paean to Ottey, who escaped the banned list only through a technicality so egregious (a mathematical error that the hearing board didn't tumble to) that the IAAF felt obliged to issue an apology (from István Gyulai) that the Council was powerless to suspend her once the decision was made, even if it was wrong? In this day and age, of course, WADA would have taken one look at the case and it would have been all over.

Ha, i knew that was coming and i've explained this to you before.

1. According to board rules i try my hardest not to accuse anyone who hasn't been banned of being a cheat, despite my personal views.

2. I take Nandrolone postives from the late 90's with a pinch of salt

3. Technical or not, she was cleared

Darn glad GH called you out on this BS. Your view makes absolutely no sense and your singing Merlene's praises at ever possible time has always rubbed me as completely idiotic and incosistent BS based on your incredibly outspoken and harsh attitudes to all the other people who have been caught in the past couple decades. In my opinion you long ago lost ANY credibility on the doping issue at any level.

[olorin]

7th- (13 votes, 149 poiints)

Evelyn Ashford
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evelyn_Ashford
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQIT5Fuz ... 6705D2F87A
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4CY4zxHb7gk

Pure Class

My #1 in the list that I forgot to send. Ashford came to centre stage in an era that the East European completely dominated women’s track and field. In Montreal 1976 the American women won two silvers and one bronze compared with 9 gold for East Germany and only one non-East European gold. In the 100 an 18 years old Evelyn Ashford finished fifth and was the fastest American in this final. A year later a new star emerges out of the East German stables, nineteen years old Goer that shattered the world record to pieces with an unbelievable 10.88 (a full 0.13 better than the old WR). In 1979 Ashford became the second woman to break 11.00 and ran 10.97 to become No. 2 in the world behind Goer.

Another East German superstar of this period was the legendary Marita Koch. She broke the WR first in 1978 and then ran an amazing 21.71 (!) to break the WR by three tenths. This was the year that Ashford emerges to world stage, becoming the third fastest athlete of all time with 22.27.

Then, came the second world cup in Montreal. I still remember the pre-competition predictions. Goer was the heavy favourite in the 100 and Ashford was expected to give a good fight. In the 200 the prediction was that of the East German will decide to let Koch participate (there were talks that she will run only the 400) nothing can prevent her from talking the title. In the first day Koch was looking way ahead of Ashford at the end of the turn. But then Ashford stun her and the rest of the world with a blistering finish winning by 2 meters and clocking 21.83 (!) a new AR by 0.42. A time that could still win most major championship.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ep7ZqzUR3hk

After that her win against Goer in the 100 by more than a meter (11.06 -0.9) seems almost natural. In the third (and the last top quality) version of the world cup Ashford scored another double with wins over Goer and Kratochvílová.

In 1983 she broke the WR in the 100 meters in altitude (10.79). But was not the favourite in the 100 after a 10.81 (WR) and 10.83 from Goer and Koch respectively. Visually injured, she managed scored a narrow victory over Koch in the 100 semi-final.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZJmTMWZ ... re=related
In the final after her usual slow start she was starting to make her move and close on both Goer and Koch only to pull out injured.

In 1984 she won easily the Olympic gold medal after the East European boycott. Then Goer commented that she can bit Ashford anywhere anyplace. Unlike some Olympians she gave Goer her chance in the famous Zurich clash. They say that a picture is worth a thousand words, so enjoy...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Mdu3fQXBUE

She came to her second Olympic in the shadow of Flo-Jo unbelievable performances. In the final she had a horrible start and way far behind Flo-Jo. But she still managed to finish second bitting Drechsler on the line. But Ashford did have her last moment of glory when after poor exchanges she got the baton in third place two meters behind GDR (Goer) and USSR. Then in a true Ashford style she managed to beat both teams to secure her third Olympic gold.

Four years later at the age of 35 after been in the top of women sprinting for 16 years she manage to make it to the semi-final. Her swan song was in the relay when after a solid lag (and poor exchanges) the US was able to win given Ashford her fourth gold.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G65ptCwXe_Q

My favourite athlete of all time and possibly the greatest we ever been

[olorin]

7th- (13 votes, 149 poiints)

Evelyn Ashford
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evelyn_Ashford
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQIT5Fuz ... 6705D2F87A
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4CY4zxHb7gk

Pure Class

Ashford and drugs:
To the best of my knowledge Evelyn Ashford name was never associated with drugs. However, she was competing in the most dirty era in our sport. By the mid-70’ it was clear that all East European countries are involved in systematic doping and by the mid-80’ it was also clear that many Western athletes are doing the same thing.

So who was Evelyn Ashford - was she one of the first American athletes that understood that you need chemicals in order to win against the systematic doping. Or was she (as I believed in my childhood and still hoping today) the shining night of clean sport that with pure talent managed to bit the East German and company?

IF Ashford was clean then she is probably the greatest athlete we ever so. To see it I compared Ashford result against the best athlete outside of East Europe ( that were doped in all likelihood).
In 1979 Ashford ran 10.97, the second best athlete ran 11.11 given Ashford a 0.14 advantage. The best all time behind Ashford was 11.01 by Richter in 1976.
In 1981 Ashford ran 10.90A were the second best was Ottey with 11.07.
In 1982 Ashford set a low altitude best of 10.93 the second best in this year was again Ottey with 11.03 a full 0.1 behind.
In 1983 she ran 10.79A and saw the world closing on her with Diana Williams 11.00.
Then in 1984 she ran the famous 10.76 and saw the second western women (low altitude) a relatively unknown Florence Griffin below 11.00 with a time of 10.99. Ottey posted 11.01 in her way to become a legend. At this point in time Ashford had an advantage of 0.23!!! from the next athlete that was (maybe) clean.
The first western athlete to run below 10.9 was Ottey in 1987 and the first below 10.8 was (beside Flo-Jo in 1988) was Ottey in 1990.

If Ashford was clean then we saw something completely unique. If she was dirty then she is a great athlete a wonderful competitor that was competing in a dirty era and done what is takes to win.

An finally a question:
In the post interview after the 100 final she was asked if Flo-Jo is special. she laughed (to me sound bitterly) and said you’ve got this right. Did she ever explain if she really meant it as a complement?

[Rog]

Ashford was another of mine.  1979 was the first year I followed athletics, and I was awestruck watching Marita Koch's 48.60 in the Euro Cup.  I looked forward to the World Cup, but a few weeks later when my friends came round to ask me out to play (being a kid), they told me she'd been beaten in the 200.  I was shocked and later, when I saw the race on tv, amazed.  Ashford just seemed to hit a certain speed and hold it all the way to the line, immune to lactic acid.  At this time a running track looked gigantic to me, and a 200 almost middle distance, so this made a huge impact.  Obviously she went on to have much more success, but to me this was her perfect race (to be joined by her Zurich 100 in 84).  It was weird that she never improved on her 21.83- both Ashford and Koch were surely capable of 21.50 having run such fast times early in their careers, but for one reason or another they de-emphasised the 200.

Magnificent as she was to watch (her running action is one of my all-time favourites), I didn't always find her likeable.  She could be quite unpleasant about other athletes, making insinuations about Flo Jo after her OG 100 win, or refusing to attend the victory ceremony after being beaten by Gohr in the 83 GDR v US dual.  In general she never seemed to give Gohr any credit until Marlies had a personal conversation with her in the 86 season after a race, quite a brave thing to do for an East German athlete.    Of course it was Marlies who made a point of congratulating her after the 84 Zurich race, leading Ashford to say that it was nice of her, If she'd just been beaten with a new world record she didn't think she could have done the same thing, which is quite telling.  I think though that that attitude was maybe why she was almost always at her best for big races.  I have to pay tribute to her coach, too.  She appeared to have a very close relationship with Pat Connolly, and that paid dividends with her performances.

All in all though, for her longevity, many successes and her competitive spirit, and chiefly for the memory of that 79 200, Evelyn would be one of my top 20.

[mump boy]

Mump, as one of the champion users of the word "cheat" here I hope you appreciate the irony of such a paean to Ottey, who escaped the banned list only through a technicality so egregious (a mathematical error that the hearing board didn't tumble to) that the IAAF felt obliged to issue an apology (from István Gyulai) that the Council was powerless to suspend her once the decision was made, even if it was wrong? In this day and age, of course, WADA would have taken one look at the case and it would have been all over.

Ha, i knew that was coming and i've explained this to you before.

1. According to board rules i try my hardest not to accuse anyone who hasn't been banned of being a cheat, despite my personal views.

2. I take Nandrolone postives from the late 90's with a pinch of salt

3. Technical or not, she was cleared

Darn glad GH called you out on this BS. Your view makes absolutely no sense and your singing Merlene's praises at ever possible time has always rubbed me as completely idiotic and incosistent BS based on your incredibly outspoken and harsh attitudes to all the other people who have been caught in the past couple decades. In my opinion you long ago lost ANY credibility on the doping issue at any level.

I loved Merlene Ottey for almost 20 years before she may, or may not have failed a drug test.

I am not justifying or excusing her or my feelings towards her, or pretending that when it comes to her i don't have a blind spot, I do.

If she had been banned i wouldn't be complaining, she would have deserved it. Even if the it had been inadvertent she still would have deserved it as i am 100% behind the strict liability rules. If she had been bang to rights i probably wouldn't have forgiven her but i would have still loved her for the amazing performances that had given me so much enjoyment in the preceding decades.

As it is, she was cleared (for whatever reason)

Along with a lot of other people i've always thought there was something odd about the spate of Nandrolone positives in the late 90's. i thought it before Merlene tested positive and i'll continue to do so until i hear a credible explanation.

You can 'call me out' for as long as you want but it's not going to change my views on drug taking in this sport and it will not stop me airing them. If you want to start a 'Mump Boy is a Hypocrite thread' go for it but can we move on in the top 10 countdown of this thread please.

[mump boy]

In fact as this is our top 10 favourite athletes, whether they are particular favourites or not ALL the athletes left should command a massive amount of respect. So can we just try and remain positive for the next few days

[Flumpy]

I love Evelyn Ashford. I have nothing but wonderful things to say about her but she wasn't in my Top 20 and I'm not really sure why.

I think it has something to do with her greatest achievements were very slightly before my time. I watched the '83 Worlds but don't really remember the 100m final and clearly remember the '84 final but was aware at the time that Gohr was missing.

I wasn't around for the World Cup wins and Flo Jo came and overshadowed her in '88.

Throughout my childhood she was a legendary athletics figure but for some reason I just don't have any great memories of her performances although I was very happy with her '88 silver and '92 relay gold.

She's right near the top of my list of athletes I'd like to meet (Along Doina Melinte, Marita Kock and Betty Cuthbert).

What's she up to now?

[trevorp]

{Evelyn Ashford's] running action is one of my all-time favourites...

It was quite distinctive, but am I right in thinking that it changed at some point in the early 80s? I vaguely recall talk of her running style being due to a slight misalignment of the pelvis (and didn't Pietro Mennea have this too?) and that she and her coach consciously tried to alter her style to overcome this - although she didn't seem to be doing too badly even with this 'handicap'. Does anyone else remember this? (Or was it just another one of my bonkers vivid dreams?)

I agree with Rog about her 'underachievement' in the 200. Remember that 21.84 into a -1.1 wind in Brussels in 1981? And wasn't it raining too?

[Rog]

Never saw the 21.84 but knew it was into a headwind and intrinsically superior to the 21.83, which had a headwind also but less strong.  If it was rainy thats even more impressive.  I remember something about her action being modified slightly but thought it was more to do with her arms.  One of her attractions was that she had a tiny body with legs that seemed to go on forever (relatively) and so she had a long stride for someone of her height.  I think it remained long though - so maybe the leg action wasnt modified - and seemed better suited to the 200.

I could understand with Marita Koch that the 400 took priority, and in her heyday the 200/400 double was difficult to combine in the majors, so she couldn't run many major races.  For Ashford though this was never a problem, and she did say the 200 was her favourite race, so it's strange that whilst she took two tenths off her 100 she couldn't improve the 200.  The one major that Marita Koch contested, the 83 worlds, she uncharacteristically made a mess of by getting a really terrible start, losing tenths, but still won.  I have recordings of her second 21.71 and the 85 world cup 200 though and she's fantastic in both.  Apparently she ran a 21.56 time trial in preparation for the world cup, and that's the sort of performance of which both she and Ashford were surely capable.

[Rog]

Just want to say by the way, whatever your views on mump's adoration of Merlene Ottey, positive drug test regardless, is there any need to be so harsh? - we have him to thank for this thread after all, and it's taken a lot of work on his part. It's not like he's the Syrian president or something!

Loved the photo too btw!

[donley2]

Just want to say by the way, whatever your views on mump's adoration of Merlene Ottey, positive drug test regardless, is there any need to be so harsh? - we have him to thank for this thread after all, and it's taken a lot of work on his part. It's not like he's the Syrian president or something!

Loved the photo too btw!

I will comment on this and then I will shut up. First of all thanks to mump for the thread. If you would like to search my posts and look you will notice I am rarely harsh and I have absolutely no ill will toward mump. It is just the the contrast between his often very harsh tone towards people caught for drug issues and his never ending support of Merlene that somehow got me riled up. I think his rose colored glasses are not even rose colored but have in fact made him blind. If I crossed some line here in terms of being harsh than I apologize, but I really don't think anything I said was over the top.

[Rog]

Donley2 I just want to be clear that my earlier comment wasn't directed at you, it was meant on a general basis. The last thing I would want to do is offend anyone, even unintentionally.

[mump boy]

I love Evelyn Ashford. I have nothing but wonderful things to say about her but she wasn't in my Top 20 and I'm not really sure why.

I think it has something to do with her greatest achievements were very slightly before my time. I watched the '83 Worlds but don't really remember the 100m final and clearly remember the '84 final but was aware at the time that Gohr was missing.

I wasn't around for the World Cup wins and Flo Jo came and overshadowed her in '88.

Throughout my childhood she was a legendary athletics figure but for some reason I just don't have any great memories of her performances although I was very happy with her '88 silver and '92 relay gold.

She's right near the top of my list of athletes I'd like to meet (Along Doina Melinte, Marita Kock and Betty Cuthbert).

What's she up to now?

we've met Evelyn at Crystal Palace in the 80's i have a picture somewhere

[mump boy]

Just want to say by the way, whatever your views on mump's adoration of Merlene Ottey, positive drug test regardless, is there any need to be so harsh? - we have him to thank for this thread after all, and it's taken a lot of work on his part. It's not like he's the Syrian president or something!

Loved the photo too btw!

I will comment on this and then I will shut up. First of all thanks to mump for the thread. If you would like to search my posts and look you will notice I am rarely harsh and I have absolutely no ill will toward mump. It is just the the contrast between his often very harsh tone towards people caught for drug issues and his never ending support of Merlene that somehow got me riled up. I think his rose colored glasses are not even rose colored but have in fact made him blind. If I crossed some line here in terms of being harsh than I apologize, but I really don't think anything I said was over the top.

Thanks Rog but i can take the (somewhat) deserved abuse , I just don't want it spoiling the top 10 of this thread and Donley no offence taken.

I'll start a Merlene Ottey threat where everyone can shout at me to their hearts content, i'll take it in honour of The Queen

Now let's talk about Evelyn and you'll have another great later today

[Flumpy]

She's right near the top of my list of athletes I'd like to meet (Along Doina Melinte, Marita Kock and Betty Cuthbert).

What's she up to now?

we've met Evelyn at Crystal Palace in the 80's i have a picture somewhere

I know but it's just a picture of her walking past isn't it? Through a wire fence if I remember correctly.

[mump boy]

6th (13 votes 186 points)

Carl Lewis
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Lewis
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jamJ4-C_TME

In a greatest athletes of all time i would fully expect Carl to be in the top 10 but i'm surprised he's this high in a favourites poll, i didn't think he was very popular.

[Rog]

I'm surprised too.  No question he's one of history's greatest athletes, but I could never warm to him.  I've sometimes wondered why, as my best mate is a huge fan.

Even when Carl won his four gold medals, it fell flat for me.  He ran well in the 100, but the rest of the field was mediocre.  He didn't jump well in the long jump by his own standards, but Larry Myricks choked as usual and again, the competition was unremarkable.  The 200 was better with Kirk Baptiste in fine form, and Carl responded with a magnificent run, then he closed with a world record relay (back in the days when US teams were in the habit of finishing the race), yet overall it just seemed meh.  I think we all knew how significant Jesse Owens' four golds had been in 36, but he competed in the nazi Olympics and Carl competed in the boycotted Olympics and it just wasn't the same.  Against all odds it was a disappointment (like the 84 games themselves).  I think with Carl he always had a public face on, but if he had been less image conscious and more genuine he might have been more likeable.

The thing though I really didn't like was his hypocrisy over Ben johnson in 88, when he knew he'd failed a test himself.  Of course it was covered up, but it was outrageous that knowing what he did he was so publicly damning of Johnson and Flo Jo.  His behaviours appalled me, the epitome of there being no honour among thieves.

I think the tfn coverage of the 96 Olympics sums it up well.  They praised Carl for his 4th long jump victory but said he spoilt it all with his pissy attitude toward the relay (not in the team but indirectly lobbying for a place).

I don't want to be too negative.  Yes, his achievements were outstanding and his long jump career alone was remarkable, never mind his sprinting, though even there in  full flight and in a pre Usain bolt world he looked the last word.  If only he hadn't made it so hard to appreciate him.

[72]

Lewis .. a favourite

Of course his record was certainly regarded by the "experts" as fit for the top ten of all time. But favourite ... never.

Rog said most of it , for me.

[gh]

......

The thing though I really didn't like was his hypocrisy over Ben johnson in 88, when he knew he'd failed a test himself.  ...

Lewis did not fail a test, despite the efforts of a disaffected USOC official to portray it as such in his wrongful-dismissal lawsuit against the group.

As I recall, he had a cold-meds reading that raised a flag, but in looking at the case in detail it was decided that there was no violation.

But, of course, it makes for much better reading to call it a failed test.

[TN1965]

6th (13 votes 187 points)

Carl Lewis
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Lewis
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jamJ4-C_TME

In a greatest athletes of all time i would fully expect Carl to be in the top 10 but i'm surprised he's this high in a favourites poll, i didn't think he was very popular.

As one of the voters, I am also very surprised. But I think we need to put this into perspective. He is "not very popular" in the sense that many people dislike him. But that does not mean he does not have his fans. At least, he is not one of those athletes who have achieved a lot, but few people care one way or another. Many people do care, both in the positive and the negative sense.

I fully agree that his four golds at LA cannot be compared to Owens' four golds in Berlin. Not even close. I think what made him great was his longevity. Many people thought his winning days were over many times, and he came back to prove his doubters wrong. And the longer he stayed in the sport, the more intriguing his career became. Of course, much of attention he attracted to the sport was by people who disliked him. But so what? If many people watched his races hoping to see him lose, that was great for the sport.

[lonewolf]

I am not surprised Lewis ranked so high since many/most posters "favorites" seem to be based on performance rather than personality.

[mojo]

Well said Rog!

My very fav has not appeared yet...I think SHE will be number one.

If not I will never come here again!

I am not a big Merlene Ottey fan.

You guys (mumpy and bumpy) can beat me up in in June.

After my top 5(or so) my list could change every day. I have many many favs....

Oh and if having an athlete walk past you behind a fence means you met them then I have met many many stars!


hahaha......

[DrJay]

How many individual WRs would Lewis have set had the 1968 OG been held at sea level with no sprint/LJ records set, and with all other performances after that in the 100, 200, and LJ left unchanged?

[donley2]

I am not surprised Lewis ranked so high since many/most posters "favorites" seem to be based on performance rather than personality.

Lewis was my #1 and Ashford was my #7. For me track and field fandom has always been a bit subdued. I never get autographs, pictures or the like. Until they started putting the posters in the track and field news, I am not sure I had ever even seen a poster of a track and field athlete for sale in a brick and mortar store. So lonewolf is absolutely correct that performance is a huge part of this (at least for me). Lewis was an amazing competetitor, particularly in the long jump where he was almost unbeatable. I do have a funny Carl Lewis story. Back around 1980 or 1981 Carl was competing in the Long Jump in Wichita, Kansas (TAC maybe) and a couple of my friends and I went to the meet. There was a rain delay or something and we went to the concession stand and Carl was in line with the rest of us mere mortals. I already knew he was really good, but had no idea of course how good he would eventually become. My buddy said, you should get his autograph, he might be famous some day. I declined. Never have gotten anyones autograph but I will always remember that conversation with my buddy.

[Per Andersen]

How many individual WRs would Lewis have set had the 1968 OG been held at sea level with no sprint/LJ records set, and with all other performances after that in the 100, 200, and LJ left unchanged?

Yes! Or Carl could have gone to altitude in his prime and jumped 30ft He would certainly have demolished Mennea's 19.79.
His 4 golds in the LJ is such an amazing feat. Oerter's 4 in the Discus is not in the same league.

It's impossible to denigrate his 4 golds from LA just because Owens had done it in '36. Sure Owens had Metcalfe to deal with in the 100 but then, who else? Osendarp and Strandberg?

[mump boy]

I am not a big Merlene Ottey fan.

So you don't want to stay with me then

[72]

so, gh, am I to assume that the statement made in Wallechinsky's book " The complete book of the Olympics" ,page 61 was incorrect, misleading; Wallechinsky states Lewis had tested positive for ephedrine, pseudoephedrine and phenylpropanaline prior to the 1988 Olympic Games ; Wallechinsky states the OSOC ruled that his illegal reading over and above the permissible levels for these drugs was inadvertent( they frequency come up with this in the States )how did they know that I wonder? You certainly dont turn away a potential Gold medal , I suppose

The fact that parts per million for the above drugs was changed later, as noted in Wallechinsky's comments and would have brought the readings within permissible levels is not the issue. nor is the extent of benefits to the athlete, if any,

gh's use of the words in his post "disaffected officials" is a subjective opinion which is not convincing ; I would rather continue to believe the "disaffected" officials (Lloyd Exum ??) knew exactly what was going on with some athletes in the USA.

Maybe Wallechinsky only talked to "disaffected" officials and not to the "right" people, whoever they may be