Vault-emort wrote:I can only imagine what the 'T&FN Forum Most Hated Athletes' topic would be like..
Good one for next winter!
I'm for it. And it wouldn't have to drag on for eons either. Just have a 10 minute window to post and put up your most hated track athletes, the ones you really despise. The ones that make you throw up when their name is mentioned. The cheaters, the murderers, the ones who spit in their opponents' eyes!
I am really curious whom Daisy would choose.
PS. And also no limit. But the athlete has to be someone you really loathe.
PPS. As I sit here typing, a number of names have already come to mind....
Since this suggestion appeared, I tried to think, whom I have truly loathed. A few names from other sports came to mind, none from T&F. If it came to some posters though...
She looks gorgeous, runs like the win, had an icy arrogance, yet seemed quite shy. She wiped the floor with everyone time and time and time again in GP races and then come the big one some how contrived to lose. There is nobody who has ever given me such highs and such lows, sometimes within seconds.
The gay in me obviously loves any amazing, powerful, glamourous woman and i it also likes the tradgedy as well. She kind of like the Judy Garland of the track and Gail Devers is Grace Kelly (who inexplicably beat Judy for the Oscar in 1954)
I remember when The Queen eventually won in 93, she was supreme to 180m and then decided to stop running completley and just randomly wave her arms about for the last 20m, i couldn't bear it and was shouting at the tv 'she lost it again the stupid b****h' thankfully i was wrong
I love how totally cod she was, in 91 when JAM won the relay after she came 3rd in both sprints, she was interviewed and asked if it was difficult to come back the relay and she replied
'yes, i deserve extra credit' !! this had been a catchphrase of me and Flump ever since.
When Gwen ran out of her lane in 95 and Merlene got the gold, instead if saying 'i don't like to win this way but the rules are the rules' she magnanimously stated about Gwen 'she's a cheat, she cheated. You might as well do 2 false starts and get put back in the race'
Yet somehow i also feel she's misunderstood and actually lovely. In fact people i know who know her say she's really quiet and quite shy. I love this contrast
I've met nearly every athlete i've ever really wanted to, apart from Merlene and then i heard she was actually in the relay team for Barcelona last year and we had press passes
Suddenly there she was not 10 yards from me looking like this at 51 years of age
so we waited in the mix zone till she's done all the interviews and then she answered a few questions for us, she was lovely and laughed about how she nearly lost in 93 then then we asked if i could take a photo. first i took a pic of Flump with The Queen
Also i've never been convinced that she actually lost the 100m in 93, what's wrong with joint gold anyway
But do you remember on the medal ceremony when she was given the silver the crowd cheered for so long that it they had to hold up the rest of the ceremony. Merlene wasn't sure what all the commotion was about bbut eventually realising it was for her gave a sneeky smile and waved to the crown. Gail just had to clap along and wait to get her medal
Maze
Also when she didn;t hear the recall gun in 97 and ran about 80m. She took ages to walk back and then kind of gave up when she realised she wouldn't beat Marion. She deffo would have got at least bronze without that mishap.
I didn't pick Ottey even though I like her. She was on her way out as I came to the sport. I love that she has kept going and set a slew of Masters WRs.
Looking at her Championship times, they are very competitive with today's. 21.99 for fourth??? Come on!
Plugging in some of those 200m times within the last ten years would give her some gold.
Great write-up on her by mump. You guys crack me up. Sorry about your picture.
Mump, as one of the champion users of the word "cheat" here I hope you appreciate the irony of such a paean to Ottey, who escaped the banned list only through a technicality so egregious (a mathematical error that the hearing board didn't tumble to) that the IAAF felt obliged to issue an apology (from István Gyulai) that the Council was powerless to suspend her once the decision was made, even if it was wrong? In this day and age, of course, WADA would have taken one look at the case and it would have been all over.
bushop wrote:I like to read both sides of it... a point/ counterpoint... personal opinion based in information.
I would agree if this were a thread on "the greatest atheltes of all time"...
But I don't have much of a "counterpoint" on other people's taste.
About Ottey, I think the most remarkable thing is that she is still breaking the masters world record into her 50s. She is now the record holder in W35, W40, W45 and W50. There is no one like her.
gh wrote:Mump, as one of the champion users of the word "cheat" here I hope you appreciate the irony of such a paean to Ottey, who escaped the banned list only through a technicality so egregious (a mathematical error that the hearing board didn't tumble to) that the IAAF felt obliged to issue an apology (from István Gyulai) that the Council was powerless to suspend her once the decision was made, even if it was wrong? In this day and age, of course, WADA would have taken one look at the case and it would have been all over.
Ha, i knew that was coming and i've explained this to you before.
1. According to board rules i try my hardest not to accuse anyone who hasn't been banned of being a cheat, despite my personal views.
2. I take Nandrolone postives from the late 90's with a pinch of salt
3. Technical or not, she was cleared
4. She has now spent over 30 years running week in week out and been tested 100's of times. She never improved dramatically, appeared out of nowhere, hid away and just came out a champs, ran away from testers etc etc etc
5. Even if she was doped up to the eyeballs throughout her all career she's still put a whole lot more into this sport than any other athlete in history and continues to do so.
6. Ironic, inconsistent whatever, i couldn't care less, Merlene is the greatest person to ever walk this earth
Because as we know drug usage becomes more and more complex all the time yet all of a suddent, every 5 mins someone was testing positive for this really easily detectable steroid from the 70's. One that apparently stays in your system longer than any other, it didn't make any sense.
There was a lot of talk at the time of contaminated suppliments that were often produced at the same plants as nadrolone products. Even Arne Lundquist, Chairman of the IAAF Medical Commission at the time said this may be the case and a number of people I don't know but there was something weird about it all.
Last edited by mump boy on Wed Mar 14, 2012 2:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Mump my fav Merlene memory is working the 1977 Gibson relays in Kingston back when they had people bracing the starting blocks and the Queen calling me over to hold her blocks when she was in the 100m invitational ........ no I don't want anyone asking me about the view
mump boy wrote:Because as we know drug usage becomes more and more complex all the time yet all of a suddent, every 5 mins someone was testing positive for this really easily detectable steroid from the 70's. One that apparently stays in your system longer than any other, it didn't make any sense.
There was a lot of talk at the time of contaminated suppliments that were often produced at the same plants as nadrolone products. Even Arne Lundquist, Chairman of the IAAF Medical Commission at the time said this may be the case and a number of people I don't know but there was something weird about it all.
If you want to take that head-in-the-sand approach, that's your prerogative. Just don't be a hypocrite and criticize others when they cut their faves a free pass for whatever reason.
gh wrote:Mump, as one of the champion users of the word "cheat" here I hope you appreciate the irony of such a paean to Ottey, who escaped the banned list only through a technicality so egregious (a mathematical error that the hearing board didn't tumble to) that the IAAF felt obliged to issue an apology (from István Gyulai) that the Council was powerless to suspend her once the decision was made, even if it was wrong? In this day and age, of course, WADA would have taken one look at the case and it would have been all over.
Ha, i knew that was coming and i've explained this to you before.
1. According to board rules i try my hardest not to accuse anyone who hasn't been banned of being a cheat, despite my personal views.
2. I take Nandrolone postives from the late 90's with a pinch of salt
3. Technical or not, she was cleared
4. She has now spent over 30 years running week in week out and been tested 100's of times. She never improved dramatically, appeared out of nowhere, hid away and just came out a champs, ran away from testers etc etc etc
5. Even if she was doped up to the eyeballs throughout her all career she's still put a whole lot more into this sport than any other athlete in history and continues to do so.
6. Ironic, inconsistent whatever, i couldn't care less, Merlene is the greatest person to ever walk this earth
Was she caught cheating - yep
Did she get away with it - yep
So good luck to her.
But mump I haven't been participating in this online TnF forum all that long but GH is right - there is a large dose of hypocrisy floating around in regards to your adulation of Ottey and your criticsm of other. But I do agree with you - she is amazing - she is brilliant - and just soo hot (as an athlete that is)
No athlete is amazing or any of the outrageous nonsense talked about any of them as gods and goddesses; athletes, whilst highly talented in one area of life are almost always incredibly self centredand obsessional, apart all the normal human foibles. These wonder athletes depend for their success on others giving of their time .
When you bear in mind the truly generous and dedicated people all over the world, sacrificing their potential for a comfortable life for the sake of suffering people in all the continents,whether in war or peace situatuions, you realise that some of the hyperbole expounded on a so called favourite athlete is bordering on sick,frankly.
72 wrote:you realise that some of the hyperbole expounded on a so called favourite athlete is bordering on sick,frankly.
I know you are just saying this to rile people up, but you know, you've got a point. I would like to think that we all realize that but sometimes I'm not so sure.
You see what happens when there is a day without the countdown! We start getting all deep and question the ethical implications of what we are doing! Save us! Quench our thirst! Give us number 8!!!!
mump boy wrote:Even if she was doped up to the eyeballs throughout her all career she's still put a whole lot more into this sport than any other athlete in history and continues to do so
If you didn't lose me at 'even if', you lost me at 'whole lot more..than any other athlete in history'..
mump boy wrote:Because as we know drug usage becomes more and more complex all the time yet all of a suddent, every 5 mins someone was testing positive for this really easily detectable steroid from the 70's. One that apparently stays in your system longer than any other, it didn't make any sense.
There was a lot of talk at the time of contaminated suppliments that were often produced at the same plants as nadrolone products. Even Arne Lundquist, Chairman of the IAAF Medical Commission at the time said this may be the case and a number of people I don't know but there was something weird about it all.
If you want to take that head-in-the-sand approach, that's your prerogative. Just don't be a hypocrite and criticize others when they cut their faves a free pass for whatever reason.
mump boy wrote:Because as we know drug usage becomes more and more complex all the time yet all of a suddent, every 5 mins someone was testing positive for this really easily detectable steroid from the 70's. One that apparently stays in your system longer than any other, it didn't make any sense.
There was a lot of talk at the time of contaminated suppliments that were often produced at the same plants as nadrolone products. Even Arne Lundquist, Chairman of the IAAF Medical Commission at the time said this may be the case and a number of people I don't know but there was something weird about it all.
If you want to take that head-in-the-sand approach, that's your prerogative. Just don't be a hypocrite and criticize others when they cut their faves a free pass for whatever reason.
You honestly believe when Marion et al where on HGH and The Clear, Merlene, Linford, Peter Kodr, half the Netherlands Football team etc were taking the most easily detectable, old fashioned steroids around ??
It makes no sense.
Last edited by mump boy on Thu Mar 15, 2012 11:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
gh wrote:Mump, as one of the champion users of the word "cheat" here I hope you appreciate the irony of such a paean to Ottey, who escaped the banned list only through a technicality so egregious (a mathematical error that the hearing board didn't tumble to) that the IAAF felt obliged to issue an apology (from István Gyulai) that the Council was powerless to suspend her once the decision was made, even if it was wrong? In this day and age, of course, WADA would have taken one look at the case and it would have been all over.
Ha, i knew that was coming and i've explained this to you before.
1. According to board rules i try my hardest not to accuse anyone who hasn't been banned of being a cheat, despite my personal views.
2. I take Nandrolone postives from the late 90's with a pinch of salt
3. Technical or not, she was cleared
4. She has now spent over 30 years running week in week out and been tested 100's of times. She never improved dramatically, appeared out of nowhere, hid away and just came out a champs, ran away from testers etc etc etc
5. Even if she was doped up to the eyeballs throughout her all career she's still put a whole lot more into this sport than any other athlete in history and continues to do so.
6. Ironic, inconsistent whatever, i couldn't care less, Merlene is the greatest person to ever walk this earth
Is Ottey hot - God, yes - one can throw away the little pills when she is around
Was she caught cheating - yep
Did she get away with it - yep
So good luck to her.
But mump I haven't been participating in this online TnF forum all that long but GH is right - there is a large dose of hypocrisy floating around in regards to your adulation of Ottey and your criticsm of other. But I do agree with you - she is amazing - she is brilliant - and just soo hot (as an athlete that is)
I'm not even trying to justify myself, I don't care if she's a mass murderer.
Feel free to call me all the names under the sun, i'm a big boy and i can take it.
Why Cathy Freeman should be "favoured" in the top ten, by so many of our posters, over so many brilliant athletes that we have heard about in this fascinating thread, is beyond mere puzzlememt and surprise, for me..
I note from the IAAF site regarding the IAAF Hall of Fame( first ten athletes just announced) that athletes as a minimum will have to have achieved standards of excellence and performance that I suspect a lot of the most highly rated faves in the top twenty on this thread have not done. And before somebody tells me this thread is not about the athletes achievements but personal preference, I can say that the majority of the people chosen in the last 20/30 of this thread are mainly those that achieved great things at the very highest level. I did not note many oddball athletes in that latter group..
72 wrote:Why Cathy Freeman should be "favoured" in the top ten, by so many of our posters, over so many brilliant athletes that we have heard about in this fascinating thread
While she is not in my top 20, I can see how the magnitude of her win, from an Australian perspective, got her here. I think there was a general fascination for her role and situation in Sydney, possibly an obsession?
And her championship haul is pretty good. Don't forget she got silver in Atlanta behind an impressive Perec.
Cathy Freeman wasn't on my list but she is one of the greatest figures from the golden age( for me) of this sport. I remember I was in school back then during Sydney Olympics and regularly someone from my family had to tape on VHS evening sessions and I was watching as soon as I got home,but that day my mother somehow managed to say,before I played the tape, "that Australian woman won" I was very angry but kinda funny now. Anyway, during World Champs '99 I didn't know the outcome before I saw it----> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dRT5TvTskt4
Last edited by pakillo on Thu Mar 15, 2012 1:25 pm, edited 2 times in total.
72 wrote:Why Cathy Freeman should be "favoured" in the top ten, by so many of our posters, over so many brilliant athletes that we have heard about in this fascinating thread, is beyond mere puzzlememt and surprise, for me..
I note from the IAAF site regarding the IAAF Hall of Fame( first ten athletes just announced) that athletes as a minimum will have to have achieved standards of excellence and performance that I suspect a lot of the most highly rated faves in the top twenty on this thread have not done. And before somebody tells me this thread is not about the athletes achievements but personal preference, I can say that the majority of the people chosen in the last 20/30 of this thread are mainly those that achieved great things at the very highest level. I did not note many oddball athletes in that latter group..
Olympic Gold and Silver, 2 x World Champion
Plus one of the most iconic OG moments of all time. There has never been an athlete with more pressure and she delivered superbly.
She's also the most humble, down to earth, nicest person you could ever meet
gh wrote:Mump, as one of the champion users of the word "cheat" here I hope you appreciate the irony of such a paean to Ottey, who escaped the banned list only through a technicality so egregious (a mathematical error that the hearing board didn't tumble to) that the IAAF felt obliged to issue an apology (from István Gyulai) that the Council was powerless to suspend her once the decision was made, even if it was wrong? In this day and age, of course, WADA would have taken one look at the case and it would have been all over.
Ha, i knew that was coming and i've explained this to you before.
1. According to board rules i try my hardest not to accuse anyone who hasn't been banned of being a cheat, despite my personal views.
2. I take Nandrolone postives from the late 90's with a pinch of salt
3. Technical or not, she was cleared
4. She has now spent over 30 years running week in week out and been tested 100's of times. She never improved dramatically, appeared out of nowhere, hid away and just came out a champs, ran away from testers etc etc etc
5. Even if she was doped up to the eyeballs throughout her all career she's still put a whole lot more into this sport than any other athlete in history and continues to do so.
6. Ironic, inconsistent whatever, i couldn't care less, Merlene is the greatest person to ever walk this earth
Mump please.... First of all I adore Merlene!, she is on my list but your double standards (mildly said) are ridiculous! Second, things like at Beijing 2008 when Blonska was disqualified even before the long jump final but news about Ivan Tikhon and Vadim Devyatovskiy came something like month after the Games make me wanna puke. So much about credibility...No excuses for that. Just to remind you,Costas Kenteris and Ekaterini Thanou have never tested positive but seems like they are the biggest cheats in history. Kenteris and Thanou forever!!! In your face!
Interesting how controversial the top 10 is. I have a feeling there is a lot more disagreement to come, as well as some people who inexplicably got no votes at all.
And since we are excusing deca positives, lets throw Larry Wade into the mix. Maybe he got top 7!
Jon wrote:13.34/-0.3, 1.84m, 13.58m, 22.84/-1.1, 6.95m/1.0, 40.64m, 2:11.53
The Talence heptathlon impressed me largely because it was so late in the year. She over competed in 94 and was poor in the GP final, finishing behind both JJK and Kravets. To come out 'tired' and set a WB was impressive. The hurdles were always a problem for her and she had to start with her hands about 10cm behind the start line, so as to get her strides in before the 1st hurdle. 22.84 into that wind was worth 22.74 ish basic and 22.65 ish with a +1 wind. The 40.64 was just a jog and chuck. In the 800m, she was 8th with 100m to go and sprinted down the home straight to nab first on the line
In June 94 she predicted some quite reserved marks for Talence, largely because she still hadn't done an amazing amount of training, but these were based on what she had done thus far: 100mh - 13.70 (she was having technical problems) HJ - 1.87 SP - 14.00 200 - 23.3 (factoring in tiredness) LJ - 7.0 JT - 38m 800 - 2:15 totals around 6,625.
She said she thought she could do 45m in the JT with more training. She'd also done 13.60 in the SP from a 'standing' put i.e. no leg drive. Come 95 and she thought she could score 6,850 in Gothenberg, but she was carrying an injury all season and as we know, Gothenberg ended up being a disaster, nearly collapsing under herself after the first hurdle and spiking herself in the HJ.
Rob, yes, I do recall that Tokyo incident I also remember the crowd chanting "Heike! Heike! Heike!" in Stuttgart 93, it was so loud! I do remember her shaking her head slightly during the anthem in Barcelona and never knowing whether that was because she couldnt quite believe she'd won gold or whether it was anything to do with the the FRG anthem! At that Euro cup she ran 50.0; she took the baton about 4 m behind Dzhigalova and said there till the last 100m where she blasted past her. She did run a 400m leg for her Erfurt club in 1998 at the nationals, running 53+ leg.
Could you give the individual marks she did in Talence 1995 with a score 6375p,and did she not participate in any hep or individuals before hep WC in 1995? Thank you deeply.
A disastrous hurdles again, she was leading Carter (who won the race in 13.66) but then hit the 8th hurdle and nearly fell over. The HJ and SP were ok. The 200m was run in the pouring rain but she did win by over 1 sec.
In terms of individual events in 95, she only competed in the 200m and LJ. Indoors in Feb 95 she ran the 200m in Sindelfingen in 23.05. Outdoors she then did 23.25 in a small meeting in Gladbeck, then 23.04 in Ingolstadt (she'd already won the LJ at that meet)
On the subject of Merlene Ottey and the nandrolone positive, it is a curious incident. We did have a number of positives at that time over a number of sports, which could point to contaminated supplements or flaws in the testing procedure. The British Federation were leaning towards this viewpoint, which says something as they are usually very strict. However, equally it could just have been the drug of choice at that time, just as THG etc was for BALCO. Athletes are still failing for 'obvious' drugs like Stanozolol so the fact that Nandrolone is an older drug or 'easy' to detect doesn't mean too much. The interesting thing for me was that Doug Turner, who failed for Nandrolone too, and Ottey were both in the Linford Christie camp, and as we know Christie failed for the same drug that year as well. I'm not a huge fan of Christies, and not only wa she lucky in Seoul but he had previously been 'implicated' in Soloman Wariso's 1994 ban, as it was allegedly Christie that had bough the 'Up Your Gas' drink for Wariso. I never liked Ottey being linked to that group, just as I didn't like Perec being coached by John Smith - I'm glad both moved away.
Does the fact that so many sports people tested positive over many sports in a short amount of time, suggests that something in the procedure was flawed though? I don't know. We don't seem to get nandrolone positives now, so do we know whether any procedures have changed as a result of those positives? The Tennis Association seemed to accept that certain drinks given to the players caused the positives and some research suggests a combination of exercise + protein supplements = nandrolone postives. It definitely isn't cut and dry.
I'm not surprised Freeman and Radcliffe are so high. I absolutely agree with the pro Paula posters; her dedication and hard work are admirable and it was heart braking to watch her when she crumbled. Everyone loves a front runner too. I respect her for outspoken stance on drugs. I must say, I did feel slightly sorry for Yegorova in Edmonton though. I know I'll now get jumped on from some of our Western hemisphere posters, but there is the impression (to me, at least) that some of the former Soviet athletes still don't get a choice in what they ingest and I wouldn't be surprised if some didn't actually know for sure what they were being instructed to take. We may have seen the fall of the Berlin Wall but in practice not that much has changed in some places. But still, Paula felt grieved and why shouldn't she speak out about it? I'm all for direct action.
When I think of Freeman I can't help but chuckle - the first thing that comes into my head isn't her 2000 win but her awful BBC studio commentary Bless her, she was so laid back I thought she'd been smoking hasish. I don't think she ever really gets the credit she deserves because her career overlapped with Perec. The 1996 women's 400m was one of the highlights of the 90's for me; the standard in that one race rocketed and it shows what can happen when a group of women come together to race in great form.
It's funny because I'm a fan of neither Coe or Ovett. I absolutely respect their performances but neither came across as likeable. Just saying.
