Take notice of Schippers-7.18s in WIC /7.14s PB


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Take notice of Schippers-7.18s in WIC /7.14s PB

Postby nianchengyu » Fri Mar 02, 2012 1:07 am

This indoor season she will participate in WIC in 60m flat,achieving a 7.19s PB at national champships.It is originally take part in long jump as well ,however,a tendon problem she suffered in the high jump in national pentathlon champships, which is a event she only jump 1.66m,below her opening result in jan 7th where she jumped 1.70m and established a 8.18s in 60mH .what is more,she only tried the front three disciplines ,with 8.26s 60mH ,1.66m HJ and 13.91m indoor SP personnal best.aUROPEAN
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Re: dafne schippers definitely said she is a heptathlete.

Postby Gabriella » Fri Mar 02, 2012 3:19 am

I really hope Dafne can improve her HJ and JT in particular as it's these events holding her back at the moment. She's obviously running fantastically well and her hurdles have come on brilliantly. Now she's getting nearer 14m in the SP she's at a good level there.

To think she's not even 20 yet. Rio could really be her Games.
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Re: dafne schippers definitely said she is a heptathlete.

Postby nianchengyu » Fri Mar 02, 2012 7:48 am

Gabriella wrote:I really hope Dafne can improve her HJ and JT in particular as it's these events holding her back at the moment. She's obviously running fantastically well and her hurdles have come on brilliantly. Now she's getting nearer 14m in the SP she's at a good level there.

To think she's not even 20 yet. Rio could really be her Games.

Yeah,how fantantic her speed is ,last year she only participated in 200m at WC except in two heptathlons.but almost unbelievablely,flying a 22.69s for a 19-year-old hep girl to break NED record for 30 years and beat Felix in heat, a time even 0.01s quicker than Marita Koch at the same age. She also run 11.19s in Mannheim heat and a 11.16s /+2.1m in final.
Some important points many thought she should switch to sprint totally as follows in my own explaination :
1.She almost make into the 200m final in Deagu for a ninth place despite running 22.92s , the worst time of 2011,and the more challengeable oppents than in heat and hep.Also felt frustrating for herself.
2.Despite stands 1.79m ,a quite ideal height for hep,her high jump best of 1.74m still at 16 in 2009 indoor season.More worse,she jumped lower and lower since 2009,even stands the last one in European junior Championships for 1.63m height which she also showed in 2010 WJC in Canada.
3. HJ seems to bring her into injury for her knee is even hard to hold in HJ and LJ in the same day,that is why she did not finish all the disciplines in Pentahlon .
4.JT need huge improvement for a only 41.80m best for her,smooth improvement over the past years.
5.To put these difficulties together ,it is much harder than doing sprint specially,which has smaller risks and larger room to rise up.
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Re: dafne schippers definitely said she is a heptathlete.

Postby Gabriella » Fri Mar 02, 2012 7:55 am

I often wonder why some of the multi events that have problems with the Fosbury don't just switch to the straddle. It seems coaches think it has to be the Fosbury regardless, but you can get fantastic heights with the straddle and it's far easier to learn. You also come into the bar at a completely different side than if you were doing the Fos and the mecahnics are different, so it would be interesting to see if she had the same knee problems with that technique as well.
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Re: dafne schippers definitely said she is a heptathlete.

Postby nianchengyu » Fri Mar 02, 2012 7:58 am

Gabriella wrote:I really hope Dafne can improve her HJ and JT in particular as it's these events holding her back at the moment. She's obviously running fantastically well and her hurdles have come on brilliantly. Now she's getting nearer 14m in the SP she's at a good level there.

To think she's not even 20 yet. Rio could really be her Games.

Actually,I have simiiar expectations with you to see her run in hep,last year she has passed 14m line ,throwing 14,19m for 19-year-old,so she really can do it well.
let us notice about her and support her no matter her choice in the future .
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Re: dafne schippers definitely said she is a heptathlete.

Postby nianchengyu » Fri Mar 02, 2012 8:08 am

Here are her pb in hep disciplines compare to her two heps in 2011:
100mH:13.27S/13.60S/13.27S
HJ:1.74mi/1.70m/1.63m
SP:14.19M/13.89M/13.47M
200M:22.69S/22.90s/22.91s
LJ;6.47M/6.13M/6.47M
JV:41.80M/38.20M/39.76M
800M:2.15.74s/2.15.74s/2.22.40s
total:6486p/6172p/6153p
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Re: dafne schippers definitely said she is a heptathlete.

Postby preston » Fri Mar 02, 2012 8:16 am

I see it another way...yes, Schippers is a fantastic athlete, but I see her as a sprinter, not a heptathlete (I also see Curtis Beach as a 800m/400h and not a decathlete - at all.). Is she more likely to medal in the hep before a sprint event? Sure, but the hep isn't that deep to me; once you put real athletes in the event, they tend to rise quickly and dominate...on the first day in the case of the dec. :lol:

A not yet 20 year old with PB's of 11.19, 22.69, 13.27 is NOT a heptathlete (Ashton Eaton could be anything; he's scary!), she's a sprinter! We don't think of Sally Pearson as a heptathlete, and Schippers PB's for age are better than Michelle Perry - who is NO LONGER a heptathlete, but won worlds 1 year after finishing top 8 in the hep at the Olympics and backed it up by winning in Osaka. Ginnie Crawford is more hep than Schippers!!! And, because these athletes do so well relative to their multi competition they score well and start believing they're multieventers when some, not all, are probably sprinters.

Europe keeps wondering why they are so underrepresented in the sprints compared to NACAC and one reason COULD be that Schippers, Ennis and a few others should probably be running the 100, 200, 400, 100h and 400h but instead they push them towards field events.
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Re: dafne schippers definitely said she is a heptathlete.

Postby Gabriella » Fri Mar 02, 2012 8:46 am

11.19/22.69 is undoubtedly great for a 19 yr old, but can she ever get to the 10.8/sub 22 she'd need to win gold in the sprints? 11.0/22.3 could get her medals, but many women can achieve those times. She certainly has the potential to score the 6500+ needed for heptathlon medals, of which there are far fewer women capable of.
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Re: dafne schippers definitely said she is a heptathlete.

Postby preston » Fri Mar 02, 2012 9:08 am

Gabriella wrote:11.19/22.69 is undoubtedly great for a 19 yr old, but can she ever get to the 10.8/sub 22 she'd need to win gold in the sprints? 11.0/22.3 could get her medals, but many women can achieve those times. She certainly has the potential to score the 6500+ needed for heptathlon medals, of which there are far fewer women capable of.

"Sprinter" doesn't necessarily mean that she has to run the 100 or the 200. I think she could be a great 100h (with practice, of course) and she has the speed to be a sub-50 400m runner - maybe faster (Outside of GBR, RUS and UKR, there are not a lot of those and it's good for a medal), and she's probably faster than nearly ALL w400h'ers right now. She could be the next WR at 400h, maybe not, but her chance at medalling right now in the hept has just as much hope and wish as the sprints, imo.

Back to the 100m. I've excluded Shelly Ann Fraser-Price and Carmelita Jeter because they are probably outliers, but at 19/20 y/o Lalova was 11.14, Debbie Furguson-McKenzie was 11.19, Inger Miller was 11.16, Muna Lee was 11.17, Kerron Stewart was 11.34, KellyAnn Baptiste was 11.17, Lauryn Williams was 11.12, Christine Arron was 11.51 and Chandra Sturrup was 11.54! Schippers is right there. She's not going to medal in London in the hep, but 4 years from now, she could; also, 4 years from now she could be sub-10.90 and that would certainly put her in/near the medals. But, if Euro coaches keep converting athletes to heptathletes then we will never know.
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Re: dafne schippers definitely said she is a heptathlete.

Postby nianchengyu » Fri Mar 02, 2012 9:02 pm

Gabriella wrote:11.19/22.69 is undoubtedly great for a 19 yr old, but can she ever get to the 10.8/sub 22 she'd need to win gold in the sprints? 11.0/22.3 could get her medals, but many women can achieve those times. She certainly has the potential to score the 6500+ needed for heptathlon medals, of which there are far fewer women capable of.

I do not quite agree with you ,yeah,there are some women can achieve like 11s/22.3st,that will depend next year which forms they will show,like Stewart and Simpson.
And the next key point is she did this time for training for heptathlon ,not just for sprint.That will be much difficult.
what is more ,hep has a trend to become higher level and fierce more. This winter showed the hint.ennis ,chernova,dobrynska,fountain,tyminska, Melnychenko,kurban and rocket fly women Yekaterina Bolshova , Nana Djimou, Aiga Grabuste and skujyte.for the teenagers, like Gambetta
of Gemany,one year younger than dafne, really another huge talent,throwing well and has lots of rooms to improve.
dafne really depends how her high jump goes ,a event with more problem even than javelin.Surely, I have more bless for her to get to the top at both hep and sprint ,maybe hurdles and long jump also.
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Re: dafne schippers definitely said she is a heptathlete.

Postby nianchengyu » Fri Mar 02, 2012 9:02 pm

Gabriella wrote:11.19/22.69 is undoubtedly great for a 19 yr old, but can she ever get to the 10.8/sub 22 she'd need to win gold in the sprints? 11.0/22.3 could get her medals, but many women can achieve those times. She certainly has the potential to score the 6500+ needed for heptathlon medals, of which there are far fewer women capable of.

I do not quite agree with you ,yeah,there are some women can achieve like 11s/22.3st,that will depend next year which forms they will show,like Stewart and Simpson.
And the next key point is she did this time for training for heptathlon ,not just for sprint.That will be much difficult.
what is more ,hep has a trend to become higher level and fierce more. This winter showed the hint.ennis ,chernova,dobrynska,fountain,tyminska, Melnychenko,kurban and rocket fly women Yekaterina Bolshova , Nana Djimou, Aiga Grabuste and skujyte.for the teenagers, like Gambetta
of Gemany,one year younger than dafne, really another huge talent,throwing well and has lots of rooms to improve.
dafne really depends how her high jump goes ,a event with more problem even than javelin.Surely, I have more bless for her to get to the top at both hep and sprint ,maybe hurdles and long jump also.
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Re: dafne schippers definitely said she is a heptathlete.

Postby nianchengyu » Fri Mar 02, 2012 9:11 pm

Will she is capable of becoming successful like Heike Drechsler or her compariot Fanny-Koen?let us see what she will go ahead
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Re: dafne schippers definitely said she is a heptathlete.

Postby nianchengyu » Fri Mar 02, 2012 9:20 pm

preston wrote:
Gabriella wrote:11.19/22.69 is undoubtedly great for a 19 yr old, but can she ever get to the 10.8/sub 22 she'd need to win gold in the sprints? 11.0/22.3 could get her medals, but many women can achieve those times. She certainly has the potential to score the 6500+ needed for heptathlon medals, of which there are far fewer women capable of.

"Sprinter" doesn't necessarily mean that she has to run the 100 or the 200. I think she could be a great 100h (with practice, of course) and she has the speed to be a sub-50 400m runner - maybe faster (Outside of GBR, RUS and UKR, there are not a lot of those and it's good for a medal), and she's probably faster than nearly ALL w400h'ers right now. She could be the next WR at 400h, maybe not, but her chance at medalling right now in the hept has just as much hope and wish as the sprints, imo.

Back to the 100m. I've excluded Shelly Ann Fraser-Price and Carmelita Jeter because they are probably outliers, but at 19/20 y/o Lalova was 11.14, Debbie Furguson-McKenzie was 11.19, Inger Miller was 11.16, Muna Lee was 11.17, Kerron Stewart was 11.34, KellyAnn Baptiste was 11.17, Lauryn Williams was 11.12, Christine Arron was 11.51 and Chandra Sturrup was 11.54! Schippers is right there. She's not going to medal in London in the hep, but 4 years from now, she could; also, 4 years from now she could be sub-10.90 and that would certainly put her in/near the medals. But, if Euro coaches keep converting athletes to heptathletes then we will never know.

what "imo."means? she probably better at 200m.For her,often runs 100m but only run once outside the hep,that is in Deague where she ran a national record.
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Re: dafne schippers definitely said she is a heptathlete.

Postby nianchengyu » Sat Mar 03, 2012 5:18 pm

Let us notice a interview about dafne schippers:
Good morning Dafne, you're best Dutch athlete of 2011, all jury members have put you on one. And to open with the default immediately but to question: did you expect?Fun! If I had expected? That of course is always tricky because there were lots of good performance this year. But because I have a very good year, I thought a chance to run.You enter the Dutch seniors ranking 2011 to 100 metres (11.19 sec.), 150 metres (16.96 sec.), 200 metres (22.69 sec.), 100 metres hurdles (13.27 sec.) and long jump (6, 47 m) and indoor at the 60 metres (7.28 sec.) and the long jump (6, 20 m). In addition, you stand second at the heptathlon and the Dutch record equalled you 4 × 100 m relay.
Where are you most proud of?
I find them all ok actually, but that 200 metres in a new Dutch record was obviously very special, and the nomination for the heptathlon in Götzis, that was something I have not expected
which or from whom you have the most learned in 2011?
"first course of my manager Bart (bennema, red.). In addition, I found the trainingsstage by Jessica Ennis very instructive. End of November, the American
What are you planning for 2012, and what is your ambition?"Let me in Götzis hep places for the Olympic Games. The end of June EK athletics also I am going to join in. I know the limits not exactly, but a 200-metre would be good for example in order to take part. And then of course the Olympic Games, the hep. I still do not really a goal. I would like to look at what I can Götzis. Since I expect a very strong competition, because the timing is perfect. The EK is too close to the Games.What is the leukste that you have seen this year?"It is indeed the nominations for the Olympic Games in Götzis. Nor was the gold medal at the EK junior in Tallinn splendid, and Deagu of course, also with the WHO 4x100 metres.
"Who is for you-international point of view-the best Heptathlete of 2011?
"Jessica Ennis, she has not won in Deagu, but it is for me to be a good example. The way in which they implement all the elements on flexibility, perfect. I must themselves are still learning. I am doing everything still too much on force. by the training period in its I have good can see how they traint.
"One of the fight, competition and would like to make win. Where does that comes from and how you go there to put in a match?"
It is of course always entertaining to win and find it entertaining to surprise. How more pressure and opposition there is the better I usually presteer. I am simply of the tension in a competition. What are you planning for 2012, and what is your ambition?"
Let me in Götzis on the heptathlon places for the Olympic Games. The end of June EK athletics also I am going to join in. I know the limits not exactly, but a 200-metre would be good for example in order to take part. And then of course the Olympic Games, the heptathlon. I still do not really a goal. I would like to look at what I can do Götzis. Since I expect a very strong competition, because the timing is perfect. The EK is too close to the Games.
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Re: dafne schippers definitely said she is a heptathlete.

Postby nianchengyu » Sat Mar 03, 2012 6:07 pm

Let us see her progress since 2007:
100mH HJ SP 200M LJ JV 800M 100M
2007:14.57/76.2 1.65 11.72/3kg / 5.54 33.28 1.47.85/600m 12.08w
2008 : 14.83 1.65 12.31 24.95 5.50 34.69 2.29.41 12.01w
2009: 13.96w 1.74i/1.69 12.01 24.21 5.69 34.04 2.23.01 11.79
2010: 13.87 1.72 13.10 23.41w 6.35w 38.38 2.18.53 11.56
2011: 13.27 1.70 14.19 22.69 6.47 41.80 2.15.74 11.13w
hep: 2009:5507p
2010:5967P
2011:6172P
60M:2008:7.60s
2009:7.42s
2010:7.37s
2011:7.28s
2012:7.19s so far
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Re: dafne schippers definitely said she is a heptathlete.

Postby preston » Mon Mar 05, 2012 8:47 am

"imo" means "in my opinion" in internet shorthand. Also, I don't see anything that says that Schippers is a "200m runner" more than she is a 100m runner. I think she is equally good at 100 and 200 (she ranks 23rd best time for both in '11). Plus, the 100m is more of a skill, than is the 200m - she should be better at 200m than 100m if it's not her primary event.

Some of the women who have run sub-11 and their 60m PB's (many have run to 60 race considerably more 60m than Shippers)

7.19 (10.99) - Oludamola Osayomi
7.16 (10.99) - Beverly McDonald
7.18 (10.98) - Myriam Léonie Mani
7.23 (10.97) - Mechelle Lewis
7.21 (10.97) - Sanya Richards
7.21 (10.97) - Latasha Colander
7.36 (10.97) - LaShauntae Moore
7.19 (10.97) - Mary Onyali-Omagbemi
7.24 (10.96) - Eldece Clarke-Lewis
7.23 (10.95) - Simone Facey
7.13 (10.93) - Tayna Lawrence
7.47 (10.92) - D'Andre Hill
7.20 (10.91) - Debbie Ferguson-McKenzie
7.15 (10.90) - Shalonda Solomon
7.18 (10.86) - Marshavet Hooker (Myers)

-For the 2012 indoor season, Schippers '92 is top 19/20 year old at 60m in Europe and tied for 7th overall (Povh '87, UKR, leads with 7.13).
-In the world, there is only one athlete born in the same year, English Gardner '92...7.17A (7.19 non-altitude), who is faster than Schippers (tied with Schippers is #1 '11 schoolgirl Octavious Freeman who is 2 months older than Schippers).
-Schippers 7.19 would rank near the top ten all-time for the NCAA (if she were an NCAA athlete, of course)

There is NOTHING in Schippers progression that says that she couldn't be a 10.6, 10.7 woman based upon history (Jeter, SAFP, Stewart, Edwards...) if she concentrated on the 100m. But, what is apparent is that unless something near Boltian happens outdoors, she will not win a medal in the 2012 heptathlon. Why not develop her speed more?
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Re: dafne schippers definitely said she is a heptathlete.

Postby Speedster » Mon Mar 05, 2012 11:48 pm

I'm sorry but Schippers might just be an early developer, she's appeared more developed than her competitors at junior level and the progression we've only seen once before with Marion Jones. It's no certainty that she will continue to improve at the same rate.

I'm no multis expert but I assume her training load is relatively heavy given that she's across so many disciplines, so relatively speaking the increase in training as she gets older might not deliver, though I do recognise that sprint training would be more specific.
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Re: dafne schippers definitely said she is a heptathlete.

Postby Gabriella » Tue Mar 06, 2012 2:01 am

nianchengyu wrote: This winter showed the hint.ennis ,chernova,dobrynska,fountain,tyminska, Melnychenko,kurban and rocket fly women Yekaterina Bolshova , Nana Djimou, Aiga Grabuste and skujyte.for the teenagers, like Gambetta
of Gemany,one year younger than dafne, really another huge talent,throwing well and has lots of rooms to improve.
dafne really depends how her high jump goes ,a event with more problem even than javelin.Surely, I have more bless for her to get to the top at both hep and sprint ,maybe hurdles and long jump also.


I agree the heptathlon is competitive and there are some great young women coming through, like Gambetta. However, the heptathlon is still a speed/jump based event. While Gambetta has fantastic throws she doesnt have the natural speed of Schippers. Dafne's weak events are the HJ and JT. It will be much easier for Dafne to learn the technique of the HJ and JT then it will be for Gambetta to become faster; you're either fast or you're not. Of course the German can work on her speed, but that's much more about natural ability. Unless this injury keeps preventing Dafne from jumping well in the HJ, there's no reason why she cant improve. 1.80 is the level she needs to get to; higher would be great, but 1.8 would be ok. The SP will come with age as she gets stronger and she's already doing ok in that event.

Speedster wrote:I'm sorry but Schippers might just be an early developer, she's appeared more developed than her competitors at junior level and the progression we've only seen once before with Marion Jones. It's no certainty that she will continue to improve at the same rate.


I agree. Physically she looks far more developed and muscular, even more so than Gambetta who is by far the better thrower. Dafne looks athletic while Gambetta looks like a regular girl, even slightly under conditioned.

preston wrote:"There is NOTHING in Schippers progression that says that she couldn't be a 10.6, 10.7 woman based upon history (Jeter, SAFP, Stewart, Edwards...) if she concentrated on the 100m.


I dont want to conjour up a race debate, but the only white European woman to have legitimately run sub 11 since Privalova in 1995 is Lalova with her sub 11 from last season. She did that 10.77 but that run is regarded to have had a falty start. No white woman has ever run 10.6 and only Privalova has run in the 10.7's (once). Indeed, since the end of the GDR and out of competition testing was brought in, only these white Europeans have run sub 11 secs: Krabbe (cheat); Privalova; Malchugina (once...dubious time); Pintusevich-Block (cheat); Thanou (cheat) and Lalova . So, I would suggest since Privalova only Lalova has legally run sub 11, in 2011. That's two white Europeans in the last 23 years. Of course Schippers could be the next Privalova, but I doubt it.
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Re: dafne schippers definitely said she is a heptathlete.

Postby pakillo » Tue Mar 06, 2012 2:14 am

Gabriella wrote:
I dont want to conjour up a race debate, but the only white European woman to have legitimately run sub 11 since Privalova in 1995 is Lalova with her sub 11 from last season. She did that 10.77 but that run is regarded to have had a falty start. No white woman has ever run 10.6 and only Privalova has run in the 10.7's (once). Indeed, since the end of the GDR and out of competition testing was brought in, only these white Europeans have run sub 11 secs: Krabbe (cheat); Privalova; Malchugina (once...dubious time); Pintusevich-Block (cheat); Thanou (cheat) and Lalova . So, I would suggest since Privalova only Lalova has legally run sub 11, in 2011. That's two white Europeans in the last 23 years. Of course Schippers could be the next Privalova, but I doubt it.
[/quote]
Have Thanou and Pintusevich-Block ever tested positive?
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Re: dafne schippers definitely said she is a heptathlete.

Postby nianchengyu » Tue Mar 06, 2012 3:56 am

pakillo wrote:
Gabriella wrote:
I dont want to conjour up a race debate, but the only white European woman to have legitimately run sub 11 since Privalova in 1995 is Lalova with her sub 11 from last season. She did that 10.77 but that run is regarded to have had a falty start. No white woman has ever run 10.6 and only Privalova has run in the 10.7's (once). Indeed, since the end of the GDR and out of competition testing was brought in, only these white Europeans have run sub 11 secs: Krabbe (cheat); Privalova; Malchugina (once...dubious time); Pintusevich-Block (cheat); Thanou (cheat) and Lalova . So, I would suggest since Privalova only Lalova has legally run sub 11, in 2011. That's two white Europeans in the last 23 years. Of course Schippers could be the next Privalova, but I doubt it.

Have Thanou and Pintusevich-Block ever tested positive?[/quote]
NO,but we all know that,is not it?
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Re: dafne schippers definitely said she is a heptathlete.

Postby preston » Tue Mar 06, 2012 7:38 am

Gabriella, it's not about "conjour[ing]" up a race debate, it's about treating the subject matter fairly - something that you seem to have a trouble with...when it comes to race (I'm quite versed on your European coaches are better than Caribbean coaches but for drugs and more talented athletes meme that you consistently push yet a country like Jamaica is now producing SP'ers and DT'ers). Using Lalova to start your argument that "only one white woman has run sub-11..." does nothing to address whether Schippers could run sub-11; it doesn't treat Schippers and her immense talent as an individual, it treats her like a replacable unit in the machine called race. The backhanded compliment at the end does nothing to extinguish why you brought race into the matter in the first place. You could have talked about her coach, her climate, her build, her maturity, etc, but you seized upon race?

Harping on the fact that no white woman has ever run 10.6 is just as unuseful an argument as saying, "no black man has ever run 9.6x"...in 2008 - and then concluding that none ever will. It certainly would have been relevant, according to you, to use that same argument to say that no white man will ever run under 10 seconds (because none ever had). And, of course, we all know that never happened so you're right? :?

Also, Privalova may have been one of the most talented athletes ever to grace this planet! The fact that she never ran faster than 10.77 can be due to a host of reasons; but for the woman who dominates the indoor 60m list [THE AVERAGE OF PRIVALOVA'S TOP-10 60m TIMES (6.949) IS FASTER THAN THE 2ND BEST WOMAN, GAIL DEVERS (6.95); 3rd Best Marion Jones only ran sub-7 once...Ottey 4x, Thanou 2x] to have her 10.77 insulted by a "faulty start" is disingenuous at best -and that's being extremely charitable. Everything about Privalova's ability at 60m (and her exploits at 400m) says she should have been 10.6 and sub-21.5! Everything!

Schippers "fits the profile" of a sprinter, and I have shown age progression of other sprinters to show that she could be the next 10.6 sprinter (she could also never break 11.10...) and certainly could be the next sub-11 sprinter, but to conclude that she never will and push her towards the heptathlon -based upon that theory..."because other white Europeans haven't" - is not logical and to be frank...it's quite racist.

Also, considering athlete orientation and the proprioceptive nature of events that require "gymnastics" of sorts, the two most difficult events to re-wire an athlete for can be the high jump and the pole vault; some athletes can never get used to being upended. There is no guarantee that she would improve her high jump or Javelin (see Sotherton, K.) and history of multi-eventers with weak HJ or JT somewhat bears that out.
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Re: dafne schippers definitely said she is a heptathlete.

Postby Gabriella » Tue Mar 06, 2012 9:11 am

No need to be so aggressive preston.

preston wrote:The backhanded compliment at the end does nothing to extinguish why you brought race into the matter in the first place. You could have talked about her coach, her climate, her build, her maturity, etc, but you seized upon race?.


Yes, because I personally believe that race can be a significant factor in athletics. Or does the fact that Africans dominate the distance event have nothing to do with race and gentics? Do you think that's because they have better climate and coaches then?

preston wrote:Harping on the fact that no white woman has ever run 10.6 is just as unuseful an argument as saying, "no black man has ever run 9.6x"...in 2008 - and then concluding that none ever will.


Where did I conclude that no white woman ever would? I was simply stating fact. In the history of athletics no white woman has ever run faster than 10.77 so, statistically, the probability of Schippers running 10.6 remains small. There is no evidence yet to suggest that she will run 10.6 at all. Saying her progression thus far is X is no more evidence she will run 10.6 than my comment that no other white woman has run 10.6

preston wrote:Schippers "fits the profile" of a sprinter



she also "fits the profile" of an heptathlete.Oh and she just so happens to be the world junior champion in that event.

preston wrote: and I have shown age progression of other sprinters to show that she could be the next 10.6 sprinter (she could also never break 11.10...) and certainly could be the next sub-11 sprinter, but to conclude that she never will and push her towards the heptathlon -based upon that theory..."because other white Europeans haven't" - is not logical and to be frank...it's quite racist.


You think showing the progression of other sprinters proves she could run 10.6? Why not add Katherine Merry in there, or Kerstin Behrendt, or Sina Schielke or other great European juniors who never progressed as a senior in the 100/200? You accuse me of not treating her as an individual, yet now you're comparing her to other runners who bear no relation to her training or background. Comparing her to US & caribbean sprinters who go through the collegiate system is meaningless. There experience of athletics is completely different to Dafne's.

<quote="preston">
Also, considering athlete orientation and the proprioceptive nature of events that require "gymnastics" of sorts, the two most difficult events to re-wire an athlete for can be the high jump and the pole vault; some athletes can never get used to being upended. There is no guarantee that she would improve her high jump or Javelin (see Sotherton, K.) and history of multi-eventers with weak HJ or JT somewhat bears that out.</quote>

Firstly, Schippers doesn't have a weak JT. She's only 19 and has thrown over 40m! This isn't weak, and she can improve this event. Sotherton was an elite athlete in her late 20's; her career was at a completely different stage to Schippers, who has plenty of time. But again, you use an example like Sotherton, well why not Ennis, who is closer to Schippers in age and who couldnt get over 40m, but now can throw mid 40s?
Her main problem is her HJ. But why is this weak? Nianchengyu suggests this is because she has problems with her knees. I suggest if this is the case she needs to consider a different take-off leg or a completely different technique, like the straddle. If she can never improve this event then it's more unlikely she will ever be a champion at senior level with a 1.70 HJ...but...Sabine John score 6814 with just a 1.74 high jump in 1984 (oh, and a 41m JT too) Ramona Neubert scored 6789 with a 1.74 highjump; Svetlana Pishtikova scored 6658 with a 1.75 highjump; Natalya Shubenkova scored 6631 with a 1.70 highjump all good scores that could win gold or lesser medals today.

Schippers is only 19, she's world junior champion in the heptathlon, she already has the technical background she needs in the hurdles, jumps and throws. She's more likley to do well in this event compared to the 100/200 where they are much more competitive and athletes are more likley to have a breakthrough. The heptathlon is still under represented but the Netherlands has a great tradition in this event. I say she should stick with this event and if she cannot progress, then move to the sprints.
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Re: dafne schippers definitely said she is a heptathlete.

Postby preston » Tue Mar 06, 2012 10:25 am

I really didn't think that was "aggressive"; however, I will attempt to 'tone down' my wrinting voice.

1. I never said that genetics is not a factor, nor would I, but when you conclude that an athlete CAN'T do something, for no other reason than their race when there is no proof to justify it, then it's racist. The fact that a GOOD coach has a great athlete doesn't lessen the fact that a coach may be good. Conversely, a decent or average coach with a decent/average athlete doesn't make that coach GREAT. The Caribbean has better sprint athletes because they have better sprint coaches than the Europeans, imo. (we could argue if Carraz was a good coach because he has Lemaitre. Some would say Lemaitre is unique but he hasn't regressed or had major injuries, something we can't say about GBR or GER sprint athletes)

2. What you consider a fact, was also once a fact about white men and sub-10 and black men and sub-9.70...you just can't conclude that because something is YET to happen that it will never happen, or can't be done - and race is the reason why. Statistically, the probability of ANY woman running 10.6 is small, especially if we go back to the wee years of 2007. But, even today, there are only a few women who have a good chance at it, they happen to be black, but only one - and she was an 11.4x runner about 5 years ago - has done it. If we go back to the end of year 1987 Gohr, Koch, Nuneva, Krabbe, Dreschler, Wockel, Kazprzyk and Gladisch had all run 10.95 or better when only 3 North Americans had: Griffeth-Joyner, Ottey and Ashford. And, if the question was asked,"Which country will reach sub-10.70 first?" I think the advantage would have been Europe.

3. I would agree that she also fits the profile of a heptathlete, and being WJ champ says alot, but she's also one of the world's BEST junior sprinters and she's not concentrating for it like she is in the heptathlon. When someone who doesn't concentrate on the sprints is good at it, they're pretty damn good; when someone who doesn't concentrate on the heptathlon does good at it, it's because the event is relatively weak on athletes relative to the sprints. The sprints are well-vetted for talent.

4. Katherine Merry is no different than Chandra Cheeseborough (a fast 1/2 junior who moves up) and we can find similar examples for Behrendt and Schielke; sometimes women/athletes don't progress beyond their junior exploits. We all know this. But, when you start segmenting athletes based upon their race and NOT because of their progress then I have a problem and this is what is going on throughout Europe an other places in the world.

5. I am comparing Daphne to US & Caribbean sprinters and you say that's wrong, but if anything Daphne is at the disadvantage. I think the US and Caribbean sprinters have more competition and are more drilled in all things sprint, yet they are mostly, except for the ELITE, slower than is Daphne who is concentrating on at least 6 other events. Again, if by background you are inserting race then I don't agree and go as far as to say its racist. That said her background shouldn't matter, her training is what it is - she's 19 - but it can't be too much more or less than her American/Caribbean counterparts.

6. Your argument concerning Sotherton is valid, I cherry-picked her - something I learned from you in advancing an argument. :lol: But, seriously, I agree, but the problem is that when athletes concentrate on their hep, they tend NOT to get faster! The ones who do are the ones like Dreschler, JJK who are legitimately talented in other events. However, if a youngster like Schippers goes to quickly to the hep then she doesn't develop the speed to compete at the Dreschler/JJK hep level (she's not a 12.6 hurdler or sub-10/sub-22 sprinter and though talented as a LJ'er she's not JJK or HD, not that we can expect that lofty goal). So aside from improving her shot and JT she won't score that much more, imo. She has to develop the speed/technique FIRST to be consistent sub-13, sub-22.40 and better than 6.80 LJ and hopefully sub-2:10 will be more accessible because of the speed. So, I agree that she can be great w/o a 1.8 HJ, but I think she needs to specialize first to get there.

Schippers age and specialization tells me only that she could be "Derrick Florence" (US High School 100m runner) or a lesser Mark Louis-Francis; it doesn't say that she will steadily improve to be a great heptathlete (an event that the Dutch are overrepresented in relative to other events. I wonder why that is?). I just don't see a scenario where sprint talent is put on the shelf for a few years and then resurrected. I'm sure there must be examples but it's USUALLY not the case. A moot point, but I think the opposite of what you think: she should concentrate on the sprints and then go to hep if she can't improve. Also, the sprints have 5 events where she might be able to excel (1, 2, 4, 100h, 400h) and the hep only has the hope that she'll improve.
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Re: dafne schippers definitely said she is a heptathlete.

Postby preston » Tue Mar 06, 2012 12:19 pm

Another thing that impresses with Schippers...that suggests that her sprint talent is being "overlooked" (obviously, it's noticed) is that she ran her PB 8.18 on 7 January 2012. That's the first meet of the season! :shock: Compared against the NCAA women in January below and against the pending NCAA indoor championship qualifiers below that, Schippers would be near NCAA Champion material for her age group.

NCAA results on January 25 http://www.ustfccca.org/assets/rankings ... yEvent.pdf
1 Brianna ROLLINS JR Clemson 8.07 A 1/13 ('11 NCAA Champ)
2 Christina MANNING SR Ohio State 8.12 1/14
3 Tiffani MCREYNOLDS SO Baylor 8.35 1/14 ('11 NCAA 2nd)
4 Jackie COWARD SR UCF 8.22 1/13 ('11 NCAA 3rd)
5 Jasmin STOWERS SO LSU 8.35 1/21 ('11 NCAA 6th)
6 Kierre BECKLES JR South Carolina 8.35 1/13
7 Jasmine EDGERSON JR Clemson 8.30 1/13
8 Bridgette OWENS SO Clemson 8.19 1/21

NCAA results Week of March 7 http://www.ustfccca.org/assets/rankings ... yEvent.pdf
South
1 Jackie COWARD SR UCF 8.08 2/25
2 Keisha WALLACE JR Mississippi State 8.23 3/3
3 Ugonna NDU JR Florida 8.31 3/3
3 Kaylon EPPINGER SR Alabama 8.31 2/24
5 Ellen WORTHAM SR Tennessee 8.34 2/24
6 Melanie AKWULE SR Georgia Tech 8.37 2/3
7 Racquel FARQUHARSON JR Mississippi State 8.40 3/3
8 Ashley BOLLING SR UCF 8.41 2/25
South Central
1 Jasmin STOWERS SO LSU 8.03 2/24
2 Ivanique KEMP JR Arkansas 8.13 3/2
3 Sharika NELVIS SO Arkansas State 8.14 3/2
4 Shanekia HALL JR LSU 8.15 2/24
4 Tiffani MCREYNOLDS SO Baylor 8.15 2/24
6 Donique' FLEMINGS JR Texas A&M 8.18 2/24
7 Morgan SNOW FR Texas 8.28 3/2
8 Demeeka JONES SR Houston 8.32 1/27
Southeast
1 Bridgette OWENS SO Clemson 7.97 2/3
1 Brianna ROLLINS JR Clemson 7.97 2/3
3 Kierre BECKLES SO South Carolina 8.11 2/24
4 Kendra HARRISON FR Clemson 8.20 1/27
5 Jasmine EDGERSON JR Clemson 8.26 2/23
6 Monique GRACIA SR Clemson 8.28 2/23
7 Kristen BROWN SO Virginia Tech 8.38 2/23
8 Mulern JEAN FR Charleston Southern 8.44 2/24
West
1 Kori CARTER SO Stanford 8.22 2/24
2 Dalilah MUHAMMAD SR Southern California 8.23 3/2
3 Katie NELMS SO Stanford 8.33 1/21
4 Brianne THEISEN SR Oregon 8.34 2/24
5 Dahlys MARSHALL SR Arizona 8.37 2/24
6 Lauren BLACKBURN SO Southern California 8.40c 7.83(55) 1/20
7 Allison REASER SO San Diego State 8.41cA 8.39 2/23
7 Sakya BOLTON JR Sacramento State 8.41cA 8.37 2/24
Great Lakes
1 Christina MANNING SR Ohio State 7.95 2/24
2 Cassandra LLOYD SR Wright State 8.21 2/17
3 Christienne LINTON JR Ohio State 8.26 3/2
3 Leslie ARIRIGUZO SR Michigan State 8.26 2/24
5 Kaila BARBER FR Notre Dame 8.27 3/2
6 Nevada SORENSON JR Notre Dame 8.36 2/18
7 Amber SMITH SO Michigan 8.43 2/24
8 Alexandria JOHNSON FR Ohio State 8.47cA 8.45 2/10
Mid-Atlantic
1 Shericka WARD SR Villanova 8.18 3/3
2 Evonne BRITTON JR Penn State 8.20 1/27
3 Chene TOWNSEND JR West Virginia 8.41 2/18
4 Gabrielle PIPER SO Penn 8.49 2/25
5 Latoya JAMES FR Delaware 8.55 2/18
6 Shelley BLACK FR Penn State 8.56 2/4
7 Vanessa JULES JR Marshall 8.57 2/25
7 Emerald WALDEN FR Villanova 8.57 2/18
Midwest
1 Breeana COLEMAN SO Illinois 8.17 2/24
2 Jesica EJESIEME SO Illinois 8.28 2/24
3 Olimpia NOWAK SR Northern Iowa 8.35 2/25
4 Deborah JOHN JR North Dakota State 8.36 3/3
5 Marissa SMITH JR Drake 8.42 3/3
6 Mairead MURPHY SR Kansas State 8.46cA 8.44 2/3
7 Megan GREGORY JR Northern Illinois 8.49 2/24
8 Erica TWISS FR Kansas State 8.52cA 8.50 2/3
Mountain
1 Katie GRIMES JR Texas Tech 8.20cA 8.18 2/10
2 Janice JACKSON SO UTEP 8.28 3/2
3 Precious NWOKEY SR Texas Tech 8.45 2/24
4 Lindsey HALL JR Montana 8.52cA 8.48 2/24
5 Precious SELMON JR New Mexico 8.55cA 8.53 2/23
6 Jasmine MULLINS SR Southern Utah 8.58 2/24
7 Lindsey KELLER JR Colorado State 8.59cA 8.57 2/17
8 Angela KAPLAR JR Utah 8.60cA 8.01(55) 2/16
8 Kalie KIRK JR Colorado State 8.60cA 8.58 2/23
8 Deborah AMOAH JR Nevada 8.60 2/23
Northeast
1 Jessie GAINES SR Long Island 8.35 3/3
2 Jesse LABRECK SR Maine 8.39 2/10
3 Madalayne SMITH SO Connecticut 8.45 1/27
4 Torrie SAUNDERS SR Long Island 8.50 3/3
5 Brooklyn VENTURA JR Buffalo 8.52 2/24
5 Nikko BRADY JR Boston University 8.52 3/3
7 Susan SCAVONE SR Brown 8.53 2/19
7 Saleena ABDUR‐RASHED SR Northeastern 8.53 2/3
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Re: dafne schippers definitely said she is a heptathlete.

Postby nianchengyu » Wed Mar 07, 2012 1:31 am

Dafne SCHIPPERS Talent of the yearMonday 12 december 2011-Cors van den Brink
Dafne SCHIPPERS is elected Monday evening Talent of the year 2011 during the Sport gala of NOS and NOC * NSF. ' Exciting and a very different experience than a price in the stadium, because you have no influence on here itself ', so that the prize hands reacted SCHIPPERS, got from cyclist Johnny Hoogerland. Schippers defeated in the vote by the elite athletes Motocross Jeffrey Herlings and swimmer Sharon of Rouwendaal. Cyclist Hoogerland heard only at the last moment that he would Prize and the price was hardly prepared for that mission. ' It is in any case a heavy crowning achievement ', he said when he proclaim the figurine. ' It is a very great incentive to again next year just such a good season this year to run as ', so reacted skippers.They enjoyed visible from the gala. ' My dress I purchased especially for this occasion. Nice huh? Once again something else than always that tracksuit.
"CongratulationsSCHIPPERS got after Sport gala under more congratulations of Nelli Cooman and Ellen van Langen. ' With all those cameras around you is the very special ', she said. ' In any case it is not something I make daily. 'The athlete of Bart Bennema reported that over the past few months has been able to train them well. ' Little aches and pains and the load is really larger than last year. I also have more influence on the programme. Bart and I submit more than once and we now take decisions together. 'They let the training of the Dutch team in South Africa in January to go beyond itself, because they are still a part of her training until February to conclude the Pabo, then a half year free to take on this study. I am therefore ' Sheffield last week has been to train with Jessica Ennis (see here what they told earlier on Athletics Week) and of course we go in april or on stage.
'Indoor SeasonFor the indoor season she chooses the 60 meter as main goal, also with the hope of qualifying for the world indoor championships. ' But I will also be in game shape components all all-around want to do, but no complete pentathlon. I would like at the end of may in Götzis shape preservation show so qualifying for the Olympics certainly is. Remain very is therefore important in the coming time. But we are getting better in the balance between tax and recovery, so that gives confidence. '
Jury Report SCHIPPERS earned the nomination for the Young Talent Award according to the jury on the basis of the following performance: Dafne SCHIPPERS (19, all-around and sprint) develops as top talent. In may she is eighth in the all-around in the Austrian Götzis. She deserves an Olympic nomination. In addition to the all-around performance put them down on the sprint, both individually and in the 4 * 100 m relay team. Its most eye-catching performance this year is the ninth place on the 200 m at the World Championships in athletics in Daegu. They put on that distance and artificially raise property a new Dutch record nominates down and also on this part of London 2012.
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Re: dafne schippers definitely said she is a heptathlete.

Postby MDelano » Wed Mar 07, 2012 2:37 am

Gabriella wrote:Her main problem is her HJ. But why is this weak? Nianchengyu suggests this is because she has problems with her knees. I suggest if this is the case she needs to consider a different take-off leg or a completely different technique, like the straddle. If she can never improve this event then it's more unlikely she will ever be a champion at senior level with a 1.70 HJ...but...Sabine John score 6814 with just a 1.74 high jump in 1984 (oh, and a 41m JT too) Ramona Neubert scored 6789 with a 1.74 highjump; Svetlana Pishtikova scored 6658 with a 1.75 highjump; Natalya Shubenkova scored 6631 with a 1.70 highjump all good scores that could win gold or lesser medals today.

Schippers is only 19, she's world junior champion in the heptathlon, she already has the technical background she needs in the hurdles, jumps and throws. She's more likley to do well in this event compared to the 100/200 where they are much more competitive and athletes are more likley to have a breakthrough. The heptathlon is still under represented but the Netherlands has a great tradition in this event. I say she should stick with this event and if she cannot progress, then move to the sprints.


She just gave an interview on Dutch national tv in which she elaborated a bit on her knee problem. She said she had microtear in her knee tendon two years ago and blames it on the fact that she was wrongly instructed to jump with a large knee angle when she was young. Every time she reverts back to this old technique the problem reappears.
It doesn't affect her sprints or long jumps though.

I don't think the straddle would be a solution (and her coach Bart Bennema is smart enough to having considered it) but apart from that, Gabriella, you're again making some very astute observations.
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Re: dafne schippers definitely said she is a heptathlete.

Postby Gabriella » Wed Mar 07, 2012 4:14 am

We'll probably have to agree to disagree here (although it seems we're disagreeing more with the evidence we're producing, as we're both saying she's a great sprinter and heptathlete, we just disagree on which should be her priority!)

To respond to your points though:

1. I never said she COULDN'T run 10.6 either. Just that statistically it is hugely unlikely. And I don't think she ever will.

2. The difference between a black man running sub 9.7 and a white women running a 10.6, is that a a number of black men were consistently running 9.7's, 9'8's and 9'9's in the immediate years prior to 9.6. So when one does run 9.6, it's no shock. Where are the white women consistently running 10.7? Or 10.8? Or 10.9? Hell, where are the white women consistently running 11.0 or 11.1?
The fact remains that no white women are consistently running times that suggest a 10.6 is happening anytime soon.
I see your point using those European examples, but as we know in hindsight, the GDR were using a state doping programme. It is possible other eastern bloc countries were. What I tried to show in my earlier post is that history has shown us that sub 11 is an extremely rare occurance in European women. It is not so rare for Caribbean and American women. I personally think this is either to do with race or doping or a combination of both.


3. We agree she's one of the best junior sprinters as well as heptathlete. The interesting thing about multieventers who show excellence in one event, then go on to specialise in it, is that it's not always with the same outcome. Hellebaut did extremely well; Kluft not so. Gomez did well but Skjuyte didn't. It's not a given that because she is fast she will excel in the sprints.

4. Fair enough, but show me an example of a recent (post Berlin wall) successful and talented white European Junior sprinter that went on to excel as a senior and run sub 11 (without a drugs stain) Whether you feel comfortable talking about race or not is irrelevant; the fact remains that there appears to be a correlation between race and sprint times. It might be culture and not genetics but either way, statistically, a sprinter's ethnic background is a relevant factor, just as a long distance runner's background is relevant.


5. We'll have to disagree here. To make a direct comparison of Dafne's progression to women that go through a completely different sports system, and yes, are from a completely different ethnic background, is not as useful as comparing her to other white european women from a similar sports system.
You need to stop being so sensitive about the notion of ethnicity and what makes us different. No one is suggesting that any race is better than another, just that there appear to be differences. Just as we know that only people from certain ethnic backgrounds get sickle cell, or are more likely to get heart disease, or more likely to get diabetes, why does it upset you to think that athletes from certain countries just may have a genetic advatange in certain events?

6. I disagree. Her speed is there, she doesnt need to develop her speed anymore to improve her heptathlon events. What she does need to improve is her general strength and technique. She can gain a meter in the SP, she can gain 5m in the JT, she (hopefully) can improve her HJ and she can go sub 13secs in the 100mh. Being faster over 100/200 will not make her a sub 13sec hurdler. She's already faster than Ennis/Fountain/Zelinka who are sub 13 sec hurdlers. She needs to improve her technique. And this she will, with age, experience and more training.
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Re: dafne schippers definitely said she is a heptathlete.

Postby weia » Wed Mar 07, 2012 5:36 am

High jump and javelin shure will come. She jumped 1.65 when she just had turned 15, that was her talent, with quite poor technique. She almost never trained the event (and when she trained she hardly listened...). I am quite sure that she will have a base level of 1.75 between now and two years, and a pb of 1.85 would not surprise me.
The javelin will come too. It is merely a mental aspect, she too much wants to force the javelin and therefore does not hit it properly. A base level of 45 seems logic, this year or next. A pb of nearly 50 would not surprise me, she is not of that class of women hep athletes who are not able to master the event.
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Re: dafne schippers definitely said she is a heptathlete.

Postby preston » Wed Mar 07, 2012 7:46 am

We are seeing this from two different perspectives but it's because you like to draw conclusions where I believe none exist.

Gabriella wrote:2. The difference between a black man running sub 9.7 and a white women running a 10.6, is that a a number of black men were consistently running 9.7's, 9'8's and 9'9's in the immediate years prior to 9.6. So when one does run 9.6, it's no shock. Where are the white women consistently running 10.7? Or 10.8? Or 10.9? Hell, where are the white women consistently running 11.0 or 11.1?
The fact remains that no white women are consistently running times that suggest a 10.6 is happening anytime soon.
I see your point using those European examples, but as we know in hindsight, the GDR were using a state doping programme. It is possible other eastern bloc countries were. What I tried to show in my earlier post is that history has shown us that sub 11 is an extremely rare occurance in European women. It is not so rare for Caribbean and American women. I personally think this is either to do with race or doping or a combination of both.


Again, you are too married to race to see that the answer possibly lies elsewhere. You refuse to treat athletes like individuals regardless of their racial predilections. The black athlete, Bolt, who ran sub-9.7 had never broken 10 only one year prior! The white athlete, Lemaitre, at the age of 21 has run under 10.10 more times than all other white athletes in the history of the sport COMBINED, and he's run under-10 more than the others ran under 10.20. Should we argue about the historical significance of white sprinters or do we treat him as an individual? Is he not white? Is he on drugs? Does his race now not matter, even if he is an extreme outlier? The fact that there are no white women CURRENTLY who are running 11.0 or even 11.1 doesn't mean that none will ever come along, but a different question to ask is WHERE ARE THE BLACK EUROPEANS IF THE COACHING IS SO GREAT? I mean why just harp on white women if the black women in Europe are also of marginal quality and certainly no threat to NACAC women? Are the Blacks in Europe less black than their African and NACAC counterparts? And, I am just not as cynical as you are to attribute it to doping. You are. At least you admit it.

Gabriella wrote:3. We agree she's one of the best junior sprinters as well as heptathlete. The interesting thing about multieventers who show excellence in one event, then go on to specialise in it, is that it's not always with the same outcome. Hellebaut did extremely well; Kluft not so. Gomez did well but Skjuyte didn't. It's not a given that because she is fast she will excel in the sprints.

Agreed. But, few, if any, multieventers get "faster" not concentrating on sprinting. They come to a point where they just stall their sprints trying to become more proficient in their "technical" events. Now, I never said that she WILL excel at the sprints; I said that she is at a point in age that she has shown the ability to excel at the sprints. No different than a Lemaitre at his age or a Guliyev at his age. There will never be their female equivalent if Europeans, who think like you, believe they are physically incapable of getting there. Thankfully, Australia didn't think that way or Sally Pearson would be a Pole vaulter.

Gabriella wrote:4. Fair enough, but show me an example of a recent (post Berlin wall) successful and talented white European Junior sprinter that went on to excel as a senior and run sub 11 (without a drugs stain) Whether you feel comfortable talking about race or not is irrelevant; the fact remains that there appears to be a correlation between race and sprint times. It might be culture and not genetics but either way, statistically, a sprinter's ethnic background is a relevant factor, just as a long distance runner's background is relevant.

I have no problem talking about race, it's YOU that has the problem talking about race and reducing athletes ability SOLELY to their skin color. Lemaitre and Guliyev were European Junior record holders and there were black Europeans in Europe for decades before that happened...what do you attribute that to? What you fail to gather is that I never said that there wasn't a correlation between race and sprint times, I said that the individual determines whether they will be good or not. Jeremy Wariner stands out more so in the US than he ever would in Europe; Tiger Woods stands out in golf, where are the other blacks? Where are the other Williams sisters equivalents overrunning the bastion of white sport, tennis? Regardless of genetic/racial background, Europeans are worse on the track than they were 20 and more years ago. Race is irrelevant to the individual variability of unique human beings.

Gabriella wrote:5. We'll have to disagree here. To make a direct comparison of Dafne's progression to women that go through a completely different sports system, and yes, are from a completely different ethnic background, is not as useful as comparing her to other white european women from a similar sports system.
You need to stop being so sensitive about the notion of ethnicity and what makes us different. No one is suggesting that any race is better than another, just that there appear to be differences. Just as we know that only people from certain ethnic backgrounds get sickle cell, or are more likely to get heart disease, or more likely to get diabetes, why does it upset you to think that athletes from certain countries just may have a genetic advatange in certain events?

Again, you are so hung up on race that even considering that Daphne could be a sprinter is too much for you to digest. I'm not sensitive to race, you are just making racist arguments and the idea that someone could be challenging you on the basis of that frustrates you...but that's your problem, not mine. And, if you're not frustrated, then don't tell me I'm sensitive. It's patronizing. I fully recognize that we are all different, what you and many Europeans fail to recognize is that like Lemaitre and Guliyev...Schippers COULD ALSO BE DIFFERENT. She could be the consistent sub-11 athlete waiting for a coach to take her there. I don't ignore the possibility that she could be, but you do. Again, this is your problem, not mine.

Gabriella wrote:6. I disagree. Her speed is there, she doesnt need to develop her speed anymore to improve her heptathlon events. What she does need to improve is her general strength and technique. She can gain a meter in the SP, she can gain 5m in the JT, she (hopefully) can improve her HJ and she can go sub 13secs in the 100mh. Being faster over 100/200 will not make her a sub 13sec hurdler. She's already faster than Ennis/Fountain/Zelinka who are sub 13 sec hurdlers. She needs to improve her technique. And this she will, with age, experience and more training.

You're correct, she doesn't need more speed to run sub-13, but she needs more repetitions - something she will miss out on as she learns to jump 1.80, shot put 15m or JT 60m. The caution will be as she improves her general strength she may become slower - hindering her 100h, 200 and LJ. She's a special talent, that's agreed, I just think you have more limitations for her than do I. And, yours only has to do with her race, and that's unfortunate - to me, but at least you're honest about it.
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Re: dafne schippers definitely said she is a heptathlete.

Postby skiboo » Wed Mar 07, 2012 3:59 pm

Gabriella wrote:

I dont want to conjour up a race debate, but the only white European woman to have legitimately run sub 11 since Privalova in 1995 is Lalova with her sub 11 from last season. She did that 10.77 but that run is regarded to have had a falty start


preston wrote:Also, Privalova may have been one of the most talented athletes ever to grace this planet! The fact that she never ran faster than 10.77 can be due to a host of reasons; but for the woman who dominates the indoor 60m list [THE AVERAGE OF PRIVALOVA'S TOP-10 60m TIMES (6.949) IS FASTER THAN THE 2ND BEST WOMAN, GAIL DEVERS (6.95); 3rd Best Marion Jones only ran sub-7 once...Ottey 4x, Thanou 2x] to have her 10.77 insulted by a "faulty start" is disingenuous at best -and that's being extremely charitable. Everything about Privalova's ability at 60m (and her exploits at 400m) says she should have been 10.6 and sub-21.5! Everything!

.


I believe Gabriella was talking about Lalova's 10.77, not Privalova's, though she might have been clearer around that. The T&F community in general had trouble with the Lalova time, at the time. Nobody that I recall ever questioned Privalova's 10.77 and neither has Gabriella. SEE:

viewtopic.php?p=217850

Regarding Privalova's times, she clearly gets weaker as one goes from indoors to the 400. She never ran anything great in the 400 - her Olympic hurdles winning time (and 53.02 PR) is actually pretty unimpressive compared to the women ahead of her on the all time list (all of whom had unspectacular sprint speed compared to Irina). Yes, Irina only came late to the event, but then Perec didn't come to the event at all except for one race in Zurich where she ran 53.25.

If Privalova should have run 10.6 and 21.5, what on earth happened? She had several injury free years in the 90s where she was showing up at the Worlds and Olympics and her indoor speed just never translated into anything comparable outdoors, unfortunately. She was a phenomenal talent, but when you beat Torrence by 0.02 in Barcelona 100, then turn around and lose by 0.38 over 200 in the same meet, it's clear that as the race gets longer, Privalova didn't get greater - Torrence did. Same thing with Worlds in 93 and 95.

Enough and I hope I haven't rambled too much.
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Re: dafne schippers definitely said she is a heptathlete.

Postby nianchengyu » Wed Mar 07, 2012 9:12 pm

According to Wikipedia :
Dafne Schippers (Utrecht, 15 June 1992) was a Dutch athlete who has specialized in the all-around. In addition, she excels mainly in the sprint and hurdle numbers. They captured a young athlete for many national junior titles and was at the age of seventeen for the first time champion as a senior. A year later she won the world championships for juniors even the world title in the heptathlon. She is in the history of the Dutch junior and senior track and field athlete or the athlete first, on an all-around world title in a Cup-winning.
Ship press began at the age of nine at the Utrecht Hellas with athletics, and soon fell on both her physical instance as by passion – that last about longer distances. Over the years they became as one of the largest Dutch talents of its information. On her first major, international Championship, the European Youth Championships of 2009 in Novi Sad, she was as a seventeen-year-old fourth in seven camp between athletes, all of which were two years older than the Utrecht. Her total points collected on that occasion they placed themselves with the Dutch of 5507 B-Juniors, aged 16/17 years, first of all time.[edit] Unofficial youth record

2010: First seniorentitelHet year 2010 started well Dafne Schippers. First she was on the NK Apeldoorn indoor champion for the first time in the seniors on the 60 m by Jamile Samuel narrowly defeating. Times: 7.43 to 7.49. Then she took a few weeks later at the National Championship for junior indoor gold in even further by adding the A girls champion in the 60m hurdles on. After she came to 60 m with a solid rival Jamile Samuel juvenile record, both because the bells were still standing at 7.37, while the Amsterdam time her chest slightly earlier than Boatmen on the finish line crowds. In May 2010 she participated in an international combined events in the Italian Dezenzano and stood up to everyone's surprise, after the first day in the lead. The youngest participant that she could not sustain the second day, but she improved during the six-around on her personal bests parts, and therefore her record on the heptathlon. She climbed into this place three of the all-time list for A Dutch girls. The total combined events was a limit to the World Junior Championships in Moncton Canada in July, but her performance in the 200m (23.70) and long jump (6.26 m) were limit performance
One week after the heptathlon, she upgraded Lisse during the traditional season opening games at the Ter Speck Cup best performance ever in the women's 150 meters with her time, unmarketable by Jacqueline Poelman 17.20 dethroned them as unofficial record holder. She was due to this achievement Ter Speck Trophy awarded. [edit] World Champion in the 22 and 23 July juniorenOp turned Dafne at the World Championships for juniors in Moncton again a better all-around. Only the high jump was both literally (it rained constantly) and figuratively in the water (1.63 is well below her PR). All other components were of high quality: a PR in the hurdles (13.87), in a Heptathlon shot put record (13.03) in the 200 meters a fraction too much wind for an official record, but actually does her best race so far (23.41), a PR in the long jump
(6.30) and an even further leap with the wind advantage (6.35, wind may benefit the all-around), in a Heptathlon javelin record (38.03) and 800 m back a PR (2.18,57). The high jump
did not prevent the grand total of 5967 points was also a PR and a Dutch youth record. She was
world champion with a large margin. The old record was Dutch with 5914 points since 1998 in the name of Saskia Meijer, though Marjon Wijnsma in 1984 with 5943 total points better than Meijer scored, but were then nineteen year old is already a senior.
Within the combined events were mainly the long jump and 200 meters of superior level.The boatmen would jump in Moncton on the individual number have yielded a medal, the 200m almost.For dessert was Dafne Schippers one day later in the final of the 4 x 100m relay along, which together with Jamile Samuel and Eva Loreanne Kuhurima Lubbers a bronze medal was
won in a new Dutch youth record of 44.09.[Edit] 2011: Explosion at the 60m indoorIn Dafne Schippers 2011 was an excellent start on Jan. 29 by an international indoor competition in Luxembourg again the Dutch youth indoor record in the 60m to improve.Came first in its series to 7.33, then to 7.28 in the finals of it.The final time was also better than the limit for the European indoor championships in the seniors.Schippers has also worked with such performance to fourth place on the list of best Dutch athletes of all time.Only Nelli Cooman, Els Father and Jacqueline Poelman had ever faster. [1]In the Dutch Junior Championships Indoor in early February 2011 in Apeldoorn, she won the titles in the 60m (7.33) and the 60m hurdles (8.45).A week later she won the senior long jump with a distance of 6.20 m, an improvement of 1 cm of Dutch junior record in 1986 by Mieke van der Kolk.A day later she added a second senior title to it by 60 meters to win and Samuel Jamile Loreanne Kuhurima.This proved to Schippers that her previous indoor sprint speed in Luxembourg had been a fly, because in Apeldoorn, the Hellas-athlete to 7.28 again.Schippers was early March during the indoor European Championships in
Paris on the 60 m to 7.30 twice. It brought her to the semifinals, where they remained in sixth place stabbing. Utrecht itself was not entirely satisfied with its performance. However, it would have been very special, like her debut at a major senior tournament had already directly
resulted in the finals. In Götzis Skippers improved to 28 and May 29, 2011 its best performance in the heptathlon, by a score of 6172 to achieve. It also won the junior an Olympic nomination. At 200 m showed a strong 22.90 Schippers note, creating the Dutch record of Els Vader (22.81) closely approached. Also in the Dutch Junior Championships outdoors in early July, she was successful. She won the title in the 100 meters in 11.13, a time that came close to the Dutch record of Nelli Cooman 1986 (11.08). The performance was not the record books as Dutch juniors, because the tailwind during the final with 2.8 m / s is too hard. Her time of 11.39 in the series, however, marked a new record for A Dutch girls. [2] [edit] European champion in the junior.On 22 and 23 July 2011 was the best athlete on the Schippers heptathlon at the European Junior Championships in Tallinn (Estonia). They earned 6153 points. Boatmen during the heptathlon improved the Dutch junior records in the 100 meters hurdles at 13.27 seconds and the long jump at 6.47 meters. Schippers began the all-around excellent to improve the Dutch junior record of 13.38 Judith Fish. Schippers was 13.27. In the high jump was a successful attempt at 1.60 rejected because Schippers for her turn jump. Shippers still eventually reached 1.63. Also in the shot put Skippers stayed behind the record-around. The athlete pushed the ball to 13.47. On the final song of the day could be revenge Schippers. With her 22.91 (-0.4) was 1.3 seconds faster than she over its competitors
The second day of the all-around began with a controversy surrounding the long jump. Schippers' third attempt at a so-called doorloper, who was considered valid, but the jury was not measured. To compensate Schippers was fourth attempt. They improved from 6.08 to 6.47 her first attempt (-0.8) and thus broke her second Dutch junior record in this tournament. The old record was 6.43 with Mieke van der Kolk. On the left part javelin 39.76 Schippers note, which is also an improvement on her PR-around meant. The two days of competition in warm conditions have demanded their toll during the final 800 meters, which only 2.22,40 Schippers had recorded, but claimed the gold safely. [4]Striking during this tournament was that SCHIPPERS with its performance on the parts hurdles, 200 m and the long jump has been acquiring better results than the winners on the individual numbers.[edit] Dutch champion in the seniorenEen
week later Ship won the 100 m Championships in the Dutch press in 11.41 (-0.9). They beating her Dutch Samuel Jamile rivales (11.75) and Anouk Hagen (standing at 39). In the series ran SCHIPPERS faster than the Dutch limit for the World Championships in 2011 in Daegu, but there was something too much wind: 11,27 (+ 2.1).During the World Championships, where they competed in the 200 m, improved Ship press on 1 september the 30 year old Dutch record of Els father. She won her heat in a time of 22,69, an improvement of 0.12 second.[5] In the semi-final, she was fifth, one place too short for a performance in the final.
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Re: dafne schippers definitely said she is a heptathlete.

Postby nianchengyu » Thu Mar 08, 2012 2:16 am

there are some word by MDelano :
Past winter 2010 she had some issues with a tendon in the knee joint which made training for the high jump in particular difficult. If she can past that and do some proper training, and also improve a bit in the throws she is well on her way to making a major impact on the senior scene.
Her sprinting is spectacular. Yesterday's 22.91 (-0.4) again an improvement over the 22.90 (+1.8) in Götzis.
11.39 is what she ran easing off in the preliminary rounds of the Dutch junior champs. In the final she blasted 11.13w (+2.9). Sensational, but given the abundance of talent in the sprints from the Americas I think she's making the right choices (and it's not like the training for the hep is currently hampering her improvement in the sprints).
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Re: dafne schippers definitely said she is a heptathlete.

Postby nianchengyu » Thu Mar 08, 2012 2:16 am

there are some word by MDelano :
Past winter 2010 she had some issues with a tendon in the knee joint which made training for the high jump in particular difficult. If she can past that and do some proper training, and also improve a bit in the throws she is well on her way to making a major impact on the senior scene.
Her sprinting is spectacular. Yesterday's 22.91 (-0.4) again an improvement over the 22.90 (+1.8) in Götzis.
11.39 is what she ran easing off in the preliminary rounds of the Dutch junior champs. In the final she blasted 11.13w (+2.9). Sensational, but given the abundance of talent in the sprints from the Americas I think she's making the right choices (and it's not like the training for the hep is currently hampering her improvement in the sprints).
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Re: dafne schippers definitely said she is a heptathlete.

Postby weia » Thu Mar 08, 2012 2:43 am

Nianchengyu: you did an automatic translation of the Dutch wikipedia page on Dafne, I suppose? I am Dutch so when things are unclear, ask. I am of the same track club of Dafne by the way.
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Re: dafne schippers definitely said she is a heptathlete.

Postby Gabriella » Thu Mar 08, 2012 2:53 am

Oh Preston, please stop twisting my words and argument into something it isn’t.

Of course athletes are individuals. I don’t believe I ever said they weren’t. But there are statistics and facts that illustrate if you’re a white European woman you are extremely unlikely to be running 10.6. I don’t see why you have a problem with this factual statement other than for you, it’s politically sensitive.
And where did I say that because we don’t currently have any white women running 10.6-11.1 that we’ll never get one? I never said such a thing, I said that it is unlikely, based on historical evidence. You seem to constantly want to ignore the statistical evidence and twist my words from “statistically unlikely” to “will never happen”.

On the black European vs black American/Caribbean debate; yes, I am cynical about certain countries. Again, it’s plain fact that Jamaica’s antidoping federation is nowhere near on the level of that of the UK, Germany or France. When the heads of international sports federations publicly speak out about the lack of testing in a country you have to worry. But that is another issue; we’re discussing Dafne. (But if you think the whole world is a level playing field you’re extremely naïve.)

I am not presenting athletes solely on their skin colour, which is why I mentioned the US collegiate system, as it’s completely different to how European sprinters are brought up. You just seem to be jumping on one point I made and now we’ve ended up with this debate. You seem to have a problem understanding my argument. Of course someone can come along and be the one that breaks the mould, but that doesn’t mean that the likelihood of this happening is small. I don’t say Dafne isn’t the one to be the first 10.6 white European sprinter, I just doubt very, very much that she will be.

On your last point; I certainly do not set more limitations on her than you do at all. And once again, I do not limit her by her race; I’m just presenting the case that it’s unlikely…you just do not seem to be able to grasp statistics or historical evidence. Let’s wait for Schippers to run sub 10.9 before we start saying she could run 10.6 , because IMO, there is absolutely no evidence that she can rub 10.6 just because she’s a fast Junior. In fact, history has shown that more often than not, fast juniors never fulfil their talent, whether black, white or green

To clarify the 10.77, yes, it was of course about Lalova. No one accepts that time as genuine. Privalova is the the greatest white 100m runner since Marlies Gohr. (Block & Thanou I completely remove from any discussion because of their doping links) but even Privalova only showed sub 10.9 form consistently in one season, 1992.
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Re: dafne schippers definitely said she is a heptathlete.

Postby nianchengyu » Thu Mar 08, 2012 5:49 am

weia wrote:Nianchengyu: you did an automatic translation of the Dutch wikipedia page on Dafne, I suppose? I am Dutch so when things are unclear, ask. I am of the same track club of Dafne by the way.

really?what ocuppation are you doing,or you just take a joke, :)
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Re: dafne schippers definitely said she is a heptathlete.

Postby preston » Thu Mar 08, 2012 8:23 am

Gabs, I'm not twisting your words. If statistics tell us anything its that it is very unlikely to run 10.6 if you are black, white, green or not named Flojo. Because the only other 10.6'ers were either PED busted (Jones) or don't have the development curve of Schippers (Jeter). You see I don't have a problem with discussing race; it's NOT sensitive to me. However, you are particularly enebriated by it; staggering your arguments with false conclusions.

Definition time....kind of like Sesame Street. When you use STATISTICS you are saying that over the course of European history white women have done, or not done, x relative to the POPULATION of women who attempted x. When I use individual, I also am using statisitics, but mine addresses the EVENT; either it will happen (individual white woman will achieve x) or it won't. That's a 50/50 chance. You are using the former and claiming the latter, and that's not right. Then again, I SUCK at statistics so some of are more esteemed statisticians may weigh in. So, yes, as long as you keep talking about statistics and Daphne Schippers, the individual, then you are certainly reducing her solely to her race, BUT if you talk about her as a generic white woman who doesn't exist, then you would be correct to talk "statistically". If you want to reduce her to a junior that doesn't exist then you can, but you can't use Daphne specifically...because either she will or she won't. You seem to leave no/little room for the "might be sub-11" because of her race and not because of her progression to date. That's a race argument, not a statistical one.

Skiboo was correct, I mistook Privalova's time but not what I wanted to convey - Lalova was a flyer and shouldn't count. Privalova may not have been just the best white sprinter since Gohr, she could have been the best sprinter since Flojo.

skiboo wrote:Regarding Privalova's times, she clearly gets weaker as one goes from indoors to the 400. She never ran anything great in the 400 - her Olympic hurdles winning time (and 53.02 PR) is actually pretty unimpressive compared to the women ahead of her on the all time list (all of whom had unspectacular sprint speed compared to Irina). Yes, Irina only came late to the event, but then Perec didn't come to the event at all except for one race in Zurich where she ran 53.25.

If Privalova should have run 10.6 and 21.5, what on earth happened? She had several injury free years in the 90s where she was showing up at the Worlds and Olympics and her indoor speed just never translated into anything comparable outdoors, unfortunately. She was a phenomenal talent, but when you beat Torrence by 0.02 in Barcelona 100, then turn around and lose by 0.38 over 200 in the same meet, it's clear that as the race gets longer, Privalova didn't get greater - Torrence did. Same thing with Worlds in 93 and 95.

Enough and I hope I haven't rambled too much.

We can't really quantify Privalova's ONE season as a 400h against those on the all-time list; I think that's a bit unfair (Remember, Perec was also a VERY GOOD junior 400h before dedicating herself to the flat). If, and that's gonna be my operative word for the rest of this post, Privalova would have been healthy for at least 2 more seasons the WR would be under 52, imo. Also, I disagree that Privalova got worse as the distance got longer; she got worse as the competition got STRONGER.

In Berlin '09 Fraser-Price ran 10.73 and 10.79 off of 6.88 and 6.94 60 times, respectively; Kerron Stewart ran 6.96 and 6.94 to run 10.75 and 10.84 (yes she ran faster with the slower 60m); Carmelita Jeter ran 7.01 and 7.00 to run 10.90 and 10.83. 6.949 is the AVERAGE of Privalova's top-10 60m times. So why is someone who is consistently faster than anyone EVER not reproducing her early season marks outdoors? That's underperforming! Privalova, based upon her early season, should have run SEVERAL 10.7's and possibly 10.6x. She was easily taller than SAFP, CJ or KS and she easily had better 200m and 400m times...why can she not finish - or start as well as she does indoors?

The answer may lie in skiboo's comparison. Privalova may not be as competitive as we would like (think Powell or Dan Jansen) and Torrence was a Honey Badger! Privalova is 9th on the indoor 400m list with a time of 50.23 - a time that was 4th best performer when she did it, no other sprinter is near her, certainly not Torrence. In the indoor 200, though Ottey is the WR holder with a time of 21.87, Privalova is 2nd with 22.10. Ottey averaged 22.22 and Privalova averaged 22.25 for their top-5 times; their average is better than the next best competitor, Heike Dreschler (22.27), best. Add in the fact that Privalova anchored some very good Russian 4x4's so they knew that she was probably better than all the women they had running on the team. I am fairly convinced that Torrence should have run under 21.5 and her headwind from hell race bears that out. Looking at all the variables of ability and the only thing that sticks out is that Privalova is not competitive unless she is dominant; she's Asafa Powell's precursor. But, the raw numbers say that she COULD have been sub-10.7/21.5.

Would you believe I'm not a conspiracy theorist? :lol:
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Re: dafne schippers definitely said she is a heptathlete.

Postby nianchengyu » Thu Mar 15, 2012 1:11 am

she finished 10th in WIC with a time of 7.25s which below-par for her,but that is just the beginning of the season,let us see what she can do this summer ,to go over 6400p,run close to 11s and 22.30s?Bless her.
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Re: dafne schippers definitely said she is a heptathlete.

Postby nianchengyu » Thu Mar 15, 2012 1:20 am

Also, in LONDON OLY she can take part in hep ,200m both indiviually and 4 by 100m relay ,200m heat is two days later the hep,6th,Aug.100m is impossible for the same day of hep, :(
Last edited by nianchengyu on Thu Apr 05, 2012 9:23 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: dafne schippers definitely said she is a heptathlete.

Postby nianchengyu » Thu Mar 15, 2012 1:20 am

Also,she can take part in hep ,200m both indiviually and 4 by 100m relay ,200m heat is two days later the hep,6th,Aug.100m is impossible for the same day of hep, :(
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