A place for the discussion of all things not closely related to the sport and its competitive side. (Locked down several times a year during the major championships)
I will never put too much into it. Being able to do this and that athletically isn't really football. The game being at least 70% mental/heart. Give me a mean, vicuous, hates everyone wearing a different color jersey.... backer with 4.8 speed and hates the bench press over a fast 4.6 guy who can bench a house without that...grrrrr Jerry Rice was no speedster.......greatest receiver ever. I know RGIII can outrun Joe Montana throw harder, further but he'll never ever come anywhere close.................. What happens when this kid who grew in a poor neighborhood all of a sudden becomes a multi millionaire? Will he still have that hunger? We've all seen it happen.
The 40 yard dash.....hmmm? For running backs that's too far. Their game is..boom. Now they are letting instinct take over, if they are thinking ...too late. They are seeing colors and going where they ain't. Their 20m time is what's imporant. So a sub 4.50...cool!
Wide receivers come in all sizes, the little quick guys like Wes Welker, the long tall striders like Calvin Johnson, The ..possesion receiver...haha!....we all know who he is. These guys can't be fast enought, the faster the better. They make one guy miss...touchdown! Here a 4.3anything ...great!
Cornerbacks don't have to be as fast but it doesn't hurt. They need 4.4 jets.
Tight ends have become monster weapons lately, too big for DB's too fast for backers. Being a big athlete it's not realistic to expect a sub 4.55it would be nice however.
So what will....he's a world class sprinter....(as we were constantly told last season) RGIII run the 40 in?
The NFL is chocked full of guys who came out of small schools who aren't looked at as high round picks because of.....who did they play? If anything is bogus...there it is......that list of Hall of Famers/All Time Greats out of Rinky Dinky U...a mile long.
Avante wrote:What happens when this kid who grew in a poor neighborhood all of a sudden becomes a multi millionaire? Will he still have that hunger? We've all seen it happen.
So you're telling us that the best long-term pro prospects are those who grew up in relative comfort, because whatever fuels their "hunger", it isn't material wealth?
What's interesting about the combine is how much we think it changes anything. We have no idea if it changes anything or not.
At a football camp last summer I listened in on a conversation between two current NFL QBs discussing the combine with a player just coming out of college. The two current NFL players were at opposite ends of the spectrum with one being an extremely high choice and the other not drafted. Both players felt that the combine really didn't mean a whole lot to the vast majority of players and that it was the media that gave their readers, listeners, etc. the impression that the performance was changing anything.
Dutra5 wrote:What's interesting about the combine is how much we think it changes anything. We have no idea if it changes anything or not.
At a football camp last summer I listened in on a conversation between two current NFL QBs discussing the combine with a player just coming out of college. The two current NFL players were at opposite ends of the spectrum with one being an extremely high choice and the other not drafted. Both players felt that the combine really didn't mean a whole lot to the vast majority of players and that it was the media that gave their readers, listeners, etc. the impression that the performance was changing anything.
I haven't seen any players who were off the radar screen skyrocket to the 1st round based on their performance at the combine, but I have seen many projected 1st rounders take a free fall based on a poor performance, bad interview/pshycological evaluation or flunked drug test at the combine.
Dutra5 wrote:What's interesting about the combine is how much we think it changes anything. We have no idea if it changes anything or not.
At a football camp last summer I listened in on a conversation between two current NFL QBs discussing the combine with a player just coming out of college. The two current NFL players were at opposite ends of the spectrum with one being an extremely high choice and the other not drafted. Both players felt that the combine really didn't mean a whole lot to the vast majority of players and that it was the media that gave their readers, listeners, etc. the impression that the performance was changing anything.
I haven't seen any players who were off the radar screen skyrocket to the 1st round based on their performance at the combine, but I have seen many projected 1st rounders take a free fall based on a poor performance, bad interview/pshycological evaluation or flunked drug test at the combine.
IIRC...the comments were along the lines of it affects very few. The players were talking not only about their own experiences but what they had been told by their agents. The point being that it's overall affect is much less than the coverage it gets. The NFLN has turned it into a TV show and betting lines are showing up on the 40 times.
I love the article which says that they will have FAT this year, but not report it because it would be too much for the football players to handle. Here's the exact quote:
"We were told it is just an experiment and we won't be told the results," said one team official. "People are worried about the reaction players may have if the 40 times change that much." Combine, team and league officials are concerned that an abrupt change to recognizing the more accurate FAT times would create a culture shock of sorts for players. These players have long been told that, for skilled positions such as wide receiver, cornerback and running back, a 4.30 clocking is elite, a 4.40 is extremely good, a 4.50 is good and 4.70 and above may be cause for concern at those positions for an NFL prospect. So suddenly adding .21-to-.24 seconds on the Combine times for prospects could result in some sort of psychological shock. As it is, some of the top rated athletes do not run at the Combine. If FAT 40-yard times became official, it is feared that even more players would refused to run at the Combine.
Marlow wrote:I love the article which says that they will have FAT this year, but not report it because it would be too much for the football players to handle.
There is indeed an electronic camera at the start line where the players put their hands along with human starter Mark Gorscak. Here is Gorscak giving instructions for the 40 in 2010. I agree with the decision not to switch to the FAT system all at once since it would be too confusing. What I would do is report duplicate sets of numbers for a couple of years until everyone got acclimated to the new timing system. Give the NFL credit for modernizing.
By the way, RGII just lit it up, running an unofficial 4.38 after weighing in at 223 pounds. Also competing was wide reciever T.J. Graham, son of Trevor Graham.
And once and for all, let's put to rest the myth that world class sprinters would run 4.1's or even 4.0's if they showed up at the combine. Trindon Holliday and Jacoby Ford are legitimate world-class sprinters and they ran 4.34 and 4.28 respectively. Remember that runners at the combine have two things going against them compared to runners at track meets. 1) The field turf at the combine is a much slower running surface then the mondo used for modern tracks. 2) Runners at the combine don't have the benefit of starting blocks that runners in track meets do. IMO, these two things negate the advantage of reaction time. The bottom line is that Chris Johnson's 4.24 is impressive even by world-class track standards. However, just because he's world-class over the first 36.5 meters, doesn't mean he's world-class over the last 63.5.
jazzcyclist wrote:I agree with the decision not to switch to the FAT system all at once since it would be too confusing.
Wow - American footballers REALLY ARE dumb as a box of rocks, huh? It would take about one day to 'adjust'. ESPN and SI would run a story and BAM, they'd get it. If your brain is calcified into the old numbers, just add .4 to the old hand-timed numbers and .2 to the speed-trap numbers.
If you are trying to measure something accurately (because you place a great deal of emphasis on the measurement), why on EARTH would you not want the MOST accurate measurement?!?!
jazzcyclist wrote:I agree with the decision not to switch to the FAT system all at once since it would be too confusing.
Wow - American footballers REALLY ARE dumb as a box of rocks, huh? It would take about one day to 'adjust'. ESPN and SI would run a story and BAM, they'd get it. If your brain is calcified into the old numbers, just add .4 to the old hand-timed numbers and .2 to the speed-trap numbers.
If you are trying to measure something accurately (because you place a great deal of emphasis on the measurement), why on EARTH would you not want the MOST accurate measurement?!?!
You have to crawl before you can walk. What does it hurt to put out two sets of times? Give them credit for moving in the right direction. Look at how long it's taken Americans to convert to the metric system.
jazzcyclist wrote:You have to crawl before you can walk. What does it hurt to put out two sets of times? Give them credit for moving in the right direction. Look at how long it's taken Americans to convert to the metric system.
And we continue to crawl because we are enabled to! The ONLY reason the USA hasn't metricized is because no one is making us do it. Just because we're lazy, doesn't mean laziness is a GOOD thing! Just like seat belt and helmet and no-texting-while-driving laws, sometimes gov't DOES need to insist we do the right thing.
jazzcyclist wrote: Look at how long it's taken Americans to convert to the metric system.
When did we convert? Never going to happen, and as we have argued endlessly before, there is no particular reason to.
Now I would like to get rid of the dollar bill and have dollar coins. And that will happen only when we stop printing dollar bills...But then who uses real money anyways these days?
jazzcyclist wrote:By the way, RGII just lit it up, running an unofficial 4.38 after weighing in at 223 pounds.
His official time is 4.41. Considering that he's 30 pounds heavier than what he calls his normal track weight, that's still impressive IMO. When you're big and fast, it's almost impossible to escape the clutches of American football. I think it's a pretty safe bet that Usain Bolt and Asafa Powell would have been lost to football if they had grown up in the U.S.
jazzcyclist wrote:I think it's a pretty safe bet that Usain Bolt and Asafa Powell would have been lost to football if they had grown up in the U.S.
Powell would have fared no better than Gatlin in football - never made a team. Bolt, if he's got any kind of hands at all, has wide receiver written all over him.
Marlow wrote:Powell would have fared no better than Gatlin in football - never made a team.
You don't know that. We're both speculating. However, history supports my position. After all Gatlin is an extreme outlier - American male with good size and blazing speed who resisted the magnetic pull of football. You have to believe that football coaches were trying to get him to come out for the team all through high school. He obviously didn't like football, in particular physical contact. American elite 100 meter sprinters who demonstrated their talent as youths fall into two categories: 1) those who are undersized and 2) those who don't have the stomach for physical contact. Aversion to physical contact isn't what prevents the majority of American males from pursuing careers in pro football, lack of talent is.
As far Gatlin, it's no surprise to me that someone who hadn't played organized football in at least a decade, if ever at all, lacked the skills to just waltz into and NFL camp and make a team, since the skills of today's pro wide receivers take years to develope.
Trindon Holliday is a perfect example of how far speed will take in the world of American football - vastly undersized, terrible hands, but still managed to get a scholarship offer from the nation's most respected college football coach (Nick saban) at a big-time football school.
Last edited by jazzcyclist on Sun Feb 26, 2012 2:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Marlow wrote:Powell would have fared no better than Gatlin in football - never made a team.
You don't know that. We're both speculating. However, history supports my position. After all Gatlin is an extreme outlier - American male with good size and blazing speed who resisted the magnetic pull of football. You have to believe that football coaches were trying to get him to come out for the team all through high school. He obviously didn't like football, in particular physical contact. As far Gatlin, it's no surprise to me that someone who hadn't played organized football in at least a decade, if ever at all, lacked the skills to just waltz into and NFL camp and make a team, since the skills of today's pro wide receivers take years to develope.
??!! Gatlin DID want to make the NFL, and he excelled at the Combine. Powell's inability to seal the 100 Championship deal, despite superior speed (before Bolt) spells his football doom also. Bolt has no such issues and would have been a natural (it seems).
jazzcyclist wrote:I haven't seen any players who were off the radar screen skyrocket to the 1st round based on their performance at the combine, but I have seen many projected 1st rounders take a free fall based on a poor performance, bad interview/pshycological evaluation or flunked drug test at the combine.
Mike Mamula comes to mind as a player drafted in the first round solely on combine performance.
cullman wrote:NFL Combine 2012 - The Cautionary Tale of Mike Mamula[/url] cman
Ah yes, the "enigmatic Wonderlic Test". It doesn't tell you anything at all how they'll do on the football field, but the low-scoring players sure are fun around the locker-room as you send them out on a snipe hunt or to fetch a left-handed screwdriver or some AC batteries.
Marlow wrote:??!! Gatlin DID want to make the NFL, and he excelled at the Combine.
The fact that he never attempted to play high school or college football tells me all I need to about his heart on the gridiron. His feeble attempt at pro football was likely motivated more by financial desperation than anything else
Marlow wrote:Powell's inability to seal the 100 Championship deal, despite superior speed (before Bolt) spells his football doom also. Bolt has no such issues and would have been a natural (it seems).
Huh?! Talk about psychological gymanstics. What does failure to win a global 100 title have to do with football potential? Come on man.
jazzcyclist wrote:Huh?! Talk about psychological gymanstics. What does failure to win a global 100 title have to do with football potential? Come on man.
Apparently you have forgotten WHY he did not win the titles he was clearly the favorite to win . . .
Bruce Kritzler wrote:Gatlin weighed about 160 lbs. in high school.
About 160 pounds? When as a freshman? I saw him run as a college freshman and he defintely weighed more than 160 pounds then. It doesn't really matter anyway since Desean Jackson weighs 160 pounds as a pro. The bottom line is that he's not a guy who couldn't make his high school team, he's a guy who didn't go out for his high school team.
jazzcyclist wrote:Huh?! Talk about psychological gymanstics. What does failure to win a global 100 title have to do with football potential? Come on man.
Apparently you have forgotten WHY he did not win the titles he was clearly the favorite to win . . .
I have no idea where you're going with this. You're reaching man. All I know is that Powell is a very similar physical speciman to Adrian Peterson with a similar susceptability for groin and hamstring injuries.
Bruce Kritzler wrote:Gatlin weighed about 160 lbs. in high school.
About 160 pounds? When as a freshman? I saw him run as a college freshman and he defintely weighed more than 160 pounds then. It doesn't really matter anyway since Desean Jackson weighs 160 pounds as a pro. The bottom line is that he's not a guy who couldn't make his high school team, he's a guy who didn't go out for his high school team.
Yes, Gatlin gained about 20 lbs. his freshman year of college. You may also recall what else happened his freshman year.
Grasshopper wrote:I think the muscle gain and NCAA titles ARE very much related. I can't tell, are you trying to imply something else?
Yes.
Well, depending on what you're trying to imply you might want to take a moment to re-read the board guidelines or, if you're implying what I'm guessing you're implying, find a different messageboard.
Dutra5 wrote:IIRC...the comments were along the lines of it affects very few. The players were talking not only about their own experiences but what they had been told by their agents. The point being that it's overall affect is much less than the coverage it gets. The NFLN has turned it into a TV show and betting lines are showing up on the 40 times.
I guess it is accurate to say that the combine affects few, but that's because most players' performances are very close to the expectations coming into the combine. However, for those who vastly overperform or underperform, the combine does indeed make a difference. The two most notable players this year were Dontari Poe and Michael Brockers.
With the Scouting Combine in the rear-view mirror, it’s time to adjust our mock to reflect players who helped or hurt themselves in Indianapolis. It is important to never drastically change a player's grade based on how he works out in shorts and a T-shirt, but the player workouts can help break some ties and help figure out which system a player may be best suited for.
An excellent example is Memphis defensive tackle Dontari Poe, who was viewed as only a nose tackle before working out at the Combine. But after he showed shocking initial quickness and all-around athleticism for a huge man (6-3½, 346 pounds), we’re confident he can also play defensive tackle in a 4-3 scheme. As a result, we moved him into the top 10 for the first time (Carolina at No. 9).
On the other hand, LSU defensive tackle Michael Brockers did not show the explosiveness and smooth athleticism throughout his workout, which raises concerns about his ability to be an effective gap-shooting defensive tackle. We feel Brockers (6-5, 322) is better suited to a role as a two-gap defensive tackle in a 4-3 scheme or a nose tackle in a 3-4 scheme. Based on his Combine performance, Brockers dropped a couple of spots in the mock (to Kansas City at No. 11).
Among average NFL fans, the name Dontari Poe probably wasn't recognizable before the 2012 NFL scouting combine. But after his performance this week, the defensive tackle out of Memphis could be on his way to household-name status.
Poe was projected as a possible late first-round pick and was slated to be among the first five defensive tackles to come off the board. Now, he may end up being one of the first defensive players taken.
After measuring in at a massive 6'4" and 346 pounds, Poe went on to dominate his workouts. He posted a combine-high 44 bench-press reps at 225 pounds, then blazed to a 4.98-second time in the 40-yard dash. It shouldn't be humanly possible for a guy to run that fast at his size.
He continued his stellar work with a 29.5-inch vertical leap, a 105-inch broad jump, a 7.9-second performance in the three-cone drill and a 4.56-second time in the 20-yard shuttle.
During his review of Poe's showing at the combine, the NFL Network's Mike Mayock called the Memphis product a "once in a decade athlete." It's hard to disagree with that statement.
When it comes to the most intriguing players in this year's 2012 NFL draft, LSU defensive tackle Michael Brockers is certainly among the top of that list.
Brockers is a physical specimen, standing at 6'5", 322 pounds and with arm length comparable to Dhalsim back in those early '90s Street Fighter Video Games. He has a tremendous motor out on the football field, which showed at times during LSU's near-perfect 2012 season.
Everyone knew that Brockers' one flaw was his lack of experience, but after this week's annual NFL Combine testing, it became apparent that LSU's dominant defensive tackle has many flaws in his game that we did not know about.
Brockers had an abysmal showing at the combine, failing to post impressive scores in any of his individual workouts.
Marquis Goodwin ran an unofficial 4.17 at the combine this morning. Since the official times are always slower, we'll have to wait a while to see if he broke Chris Johnson's record of 4.24.
Jerry Rice was no speedster.......greatest receiver ever. I know RGIII can outrun Joe Montana throw harder, further but he'll never ever come anywhere close.................. What happens when this kid who grew in a poor neighborhood all of a sudden becomes a multi millionaire? Will he still have that hunger? We've all seen it happen.
Also competing was wide reciever T.J. Graham, son of Trevor Graham.
