Obviously it's not going to go down exactly like that but get it as close as possible. I want my two fastest on the straights...unless we have a special case like Tyson Gay...talking Jama....Bolt and Powell(even if Blake has surplanted Powell)...Powell is not a turn runner.
As close as possible? Please be more specific than "close as possible". I get the feeling that you're gonna run from it as soon as I begin to smash it to bits!
-a 90m first leg means that your 2nd leg only gets a 10m run-in, which is not enough room to get anywhere near full speed. The stick will undoubtedly slow. And you're beating your chest about how much you know about this. -a 110m second leg pust you back to passing in the middle of the zone but when the 3rd leg passes the stick will stop again because the anchor didn't have time to accelerate. Again!
No relay coach worth his salt would advocate for passing BEFORE the mid-point of the zone (though they MIGHT think of passing beyond) just to make a leg longer; it's pure, concentrated stupidity but you've been banging your know-it-all drum. And, don't try to back out of it now, you blew it, 90m?
Back out??? I'd love to see it go just that way. Are you telling me we can't get creative? Are you trying to say it's better to run equal distances? You just admitted.....just to make it longer. Ok..lets do that. Hel-l0000!
Preston for you to try to sell....must be equal distance....is comical. Something tells me you know better but won't admit it. Jama needs to do what they can to put Bolt and Powell in the best possible postion to handle as much of a 4x1 as they can. If you can't see that......it's hopeless. What do they gain by not using that method...well?
You've proven that you don't have a clue. I won't waste anymore time following you down that rabbit hole. I feel for you, I do, not because you're wrong - we all are from time to time- but because you absolutely refuse to see how foolish your proposal is. As I said before, you're not even a dumb-person's "Eldrick". Moving on.
preston wrote:You've proven that you don't have a clue. I won't waste anymore time following you down that rabbit hole. I feel for you, I do, not because you're wrong - we all are from time to time- but because you absolutely refuse to see how foolish your proposal is. As I said before, you're not even a dumb-person's "Eldrick". Moving on.
translation
I understand what you're saying and yes it makes all the sense in the world. Why not do all you can to maximize the speed. A no brainer. But.....I'm too short to see outside the box Sorry I bothered you with my silliness...Mr Avante.
JumboElliott wrote:The second leg is 80-120m long, so it's not the longest leg..
Houston McTear left Florida to come out to Cali, he would enroll at Cerritos JC, (might have that backwards) then Santa Monica JC. There he was a world class sprinter at a Cali JC. I saw him run while at SMCC....comical. He was on a whole different level...obviously.
When Ato Boldon was at UCLA he was already a world class sprinter, far and away the best sprinter they had and the best NCAA sprinter in the country.
When Davidson and Ozmond Ezinwa were at tiny Azusa Pacific they had no business competing against that level of competition.
The Harrisons at rinky dinky Hartnell. Funniest 4x4 I've ever seen....haha!! Alvin & Calvin in with two 50.05 guys.
The Wesley brothers in HS. Gene and Joe Pouncy in HS. Both sets of brothers on HS record 4x1 teams.
Frankie Fredericks on a Namibia 4x1 team, if they had had one.
Jean Louis Ravelomantsoa at Westmont.
The great sprinter (maybe a couple) on weak 4x1 teams. Right there is when you want to get creative. McTear was a 10.16 guy in HS. I doubt anyone on his JC teams could break a 10.40. Why wouldn't we want this great sprinter running as much of that 4x1 as he can? What, let Mr.10.40 run the same distance...why?
Why not get a little creative, why not do all you can to maximize the speed on a 4x1? The Ezinwa's, Wesley's and Pouncy's were by far the fastest relayers on their teams, why wouldn't we want them running as much of that 4x1 as we can? It makes all the sense in the world and it's not that difficult to arrange.
At the world class level we won't be seeing anything like those mentioned above, there everyone has some serious jets, so is it really worth messing with? Probably not, but it has been done. Look at France with CL, why not give him a bigger slice of the pie? How many sub10.00 guys do they have......one!
That second leg can be a tool, to act like ...oh no that can't......hell yes it can.
Remember Derrick Atkins at ittie bittie Dickinson? We want his 10.55 teammates running......................................
Avante correct me if I'm wrong, but as I understand it, can't any leg of the 4x100m be a long leg if you so wish it to be? If this is so, and if you are saying it makes sense to have Bolt run a longer leg to maximize his prowess, why not just make the him run the last leg as the long leg (which is also a stretch)? If this is so would your emphasis on Bolt running the second leg still hold water?
Pelpa wrote:Avante correct me if I'm wrong, but as I understand it, can't any leg of the 4x100m be a long leg if you so wish it to be? If this is so, and if you are saying it makes sense to have Bolt run a longer leg to maximize his prowess, why not just make the him run the last leg as the long leg (which is also a stretch)? If this is so would your emphasis on Bolt running the second leg still hold water?
Asafa Powell isn't going to help them on another leg, he has to anchor so we need Bolt where he can do the most damage........second leg.
I think Bolt should run the first leg of the 4x1 then run across the infield to the anchor leg and run that also. Maybe the officials won't catch it. Of course, this is easier to do with the 4x 200, but I think Bolt can pull it off.
On the other hand, with those long arms- passing and receiving, just think of the "saved" distance the Jamaicans can gain with Bolt on 2nd or 3rd.
Can the Jamaicans still win the 4x1 gold, if Bolt decides to run the 100, 400, 200 triple? Now that is what I would love to see.
One thing that both Avante and Preston are overlooking is the fact that Usain Bolt's left hand is more useless than Jeremy Lin's, so he can't run the second leg. Go rewatch the 2007 World Championship final to see what I'm talking about. Having said that, for national teams like those of Jamaica and the U.S. who will run four sub-10 runners, the fastest strategy is to have every one recieve the baton as late in the zone as possible. That's because even Usain Bolt's top speed after 28 meters of running without starting blocks is slower than his teammate's speed after 108 or 126 meters of running. Let's see if you can figure out where I got the numbers 28, 108 and 126 from.
Hint: Outgoing runners must set up ahead of the acceleration zone mark, not behind it and the exchange must be made before the outgoing runner leaves the zone.
The bottom line is that preston is 100 % right and Avante is . . . . . well, being Avante.
1st leg: any strong starter, whether Carter, Lee or Frater, whoever is there available. 2nd leg: Powell, 3rd leg: Blake 4th leg: (duh) Bolt.
Its logical that your 9.5 low threatening guy, who is 6 foot 8inches and uses 41 strides to cover a 100m in 9.58 seconds runs the anchor leg. In fact if this guy has the 150m Straight WR, threatens 18.99 in 200m then you may feel free to adjust the race so that he covers 110m on the anchor leg.
One thing for certain is that you don't use this guy as a pushed pawn on the second leg.
Pelpa wrote:1st leg: any strong starter, whether Carter, Lee or Frater, whoever is there available. 2nd leg: Powell, 3rd leg: Blake 4th leg: (duh) Bolt.
Its logical that your 9.5 low threatening guy, who is 6 foot 8inches and uses 41 strides to cover a 100m in 9.58 seconds runs the anchor leg. In fact if this guy has the 150m Straight WR, threatens 18.99 in 200m then you may feel free to adjust the race so that he covers 110m on the anchor leg.
That means that he only has 10 meters to accelerate before he recieves the baton, which means that the incoming runner will have to slam on brakes to make the pass, thus slowing down the baton.
Pelpa wrote:One thing for certain is that you don't use this guy as a pushed pawn on the second leg.
Why not? This isn't your local high school track team.
jazzcyclist wrote:That means that he only has 10 meters to accelerate before he recieves the baton, which means that the incoming runner will have to slam on brakes to make the pass, thus slowing down the baton.
Exactly my point, now imagine Bolt being the guy that hands over (review tape). Anyway, for me, best have Bolt than anybody else on that team Maximizing.
jazzcyclist wrote:
Pelpa wrote:One thing for certain is that you don't use this guy as a pushed pawn on the second leg.
Why not? This isn't your local high school track team.
Hey you are advising about not treating as a local high school meet while endorsing using the world's 100m and 200m record holder as a pawn in a relay?
JumboElliott wrote:The strong starter on the first leg is a myth. If each leg is ~100 meters, why does it matter?
Plus, there's a serious case for the best runner to be on the first leg. Look at what Jamaica did this year at the Penn Relays.
Because only one of the runners has to have a dead start, the rest get the 10m acceleration zone and then the passing zone. You put a good starter on the first leg; a great start is basically semi-wasted anywhere else.
jazzcyclist wrote:That means that he only has 10 meters to accelerate before he recieves the baton, which means that the incoming runner will have to slam on brakes to make the pass, thus slowing down the baton.
Exactly my point, now imagine Bolt being the guy that hands over (review tape). Anyway, for me, best have Bolt than anybody else on that team Maximizing.
I was refuting the idea of Bolt carrying the baton for 110 meters. With a team with the foot speed of Jamaica, ideally, Bolt would only carry the baton for 90 meters if he was anchoring and they were trying to maximizee passing efficiency. I'm saying that you shouldn't have anyone slamming on the brakes by giving Bolt the baton at the beginning of the zone.
Pelpa wrote:Hey you are advising about not treating as a local high school meet while endorsing using the world's 100m and 200m record holder as a pawn in a relay?
A pawn? What are you talking about? I'm saying that it's better to have Bolt carry the baton for 100 meters than 90 meters.
In theory Bolt should run the 2nd or 3rd leg because, if the exchanges are done correctly, those legs allow the runner to cover more distance. Anyone that doesn't understand why these legs can be longer should read the rules on relay exchanges zones.
The best examples of this in practice are the GDR, FRG, USSR and FRA teams where they put their best athlete over 120m on the 2nd leg.
Neither the USA nor Jamaica practice the relay enough and are thus not good examples of a sound technical model, so I understand why Bolt may not be on 2nd leg. There is also the question of who actually is the best over 120m now; is it Bolt or is it Blake? Either way, on paper, whichever it is, they should really be on 2nd leg.
Gabriella wrote:In theory Bolt should run the 2nd or 3rd leg because, if the exchanges are done correctly, those legs allow the runner to cover more distance. Anyone that doesn't understand why these legs can be longer should read the rules on relay exchanges zones.
The best examples of this in practice are the GDR, FRG, USSR and FRA teams where they put their best athlete over 120m on the 2nd leg.
Neither the USA nor Jamaica practice the relay enough and are thus not good examples of a sound technical model, so I understand why Bolt may not be on 2nd leg. There is also the question of who actually is the best over 120m now; is it Bolt or is it Blake? Either way, on paper, whichever it is, they should really be on 2nd leg.
This strategy is good for teams where there is a huge speed differential between the fastest and the slowest runner, but not for teams like Jamaica and the U.S. For Bolt to run 120 meters, the baton would inevitably slow down a ton when he recieves it. The name of the game is to keep the baton moving. You don't want guys like Asafa Powell or Yahan Blake slamming on the brakes to make a pass. Anyone who recommends Bolt running 120 meters with the teammates that he has, simply doesn't know what they're talking about.
Gabriella wrote: The best examples of this in practice are the GDR, FRG, USSR and FRA teams where they put their best athlete over 120m on the 2nd leg. .
...All teams with slow guys (generally) and collectively perennial losers. Though it is true that these guys maximize their strengths on the 2nd and thrid legs, it must be understood that this is within the context of their situation. Does not mean that this is the dress that also fits a Jamaica and a US and perhaps a French team with a mature Jimmy Vicaunt and Lemaitre and that other guy, et al.
Each team has to alter the legs as it best works for their team. Its a waste within the context of a Jamaican team with Blake, Powell, Bolt and another guy; to use a fit Bolt on any other leg other than the anchor. The Jamaican coaches did the right thing in Berlin (proof is that the WR was broken).
I see your point though Gabby that if Bolt were on a team with just three average guys (10.10 PBs) and they had the time to train and practice til thy kingdom comes (as the teams you noted do) then go right ahead and try to work him on third (with risk of him having to buckle near the exchange).
Pelpa wrote:I see your point though Gabby that if Bolt were on a team with just three average guys (10.10 PBs) and they had the time to train and practice til thy kingdom comes (as the teams you noted do) then go right ahead and try to work him on third (with risk of him having to buckle near the exchange).
But my guess is that even a 10.10 sprinter is moving considerably faster after 90 meters (scratch leg) or 110 meters (2nd and 3rd leg) of running than Bolt is after only ten meters of running.
Pelpa wrote:1st leg: any strong starter, whether Carter, Lee or Frater, whoever is there available. 2nd leg: Powell, 3rd leg: Blake 4th leg: (duh) Bolt.
Its logical that your 9.5 low threatening guy, who is 6 foot 8inches and uses 41 strides to cover a 100m in 9.58 seconds runs the anchor leg.
It is also logical that the man with the two fastest anchor legs ever recorded remain on anchor leg, and that man isn't the "9.5 low threatening guy".
Pelpa wrote:1st leg: any strong starter, whether Carter, Lee or Frater, whoever is there available. 2nd leg: Powell, 3rd leg: Blake 4th leg: (duh) Bolt.
Its logical that your 9.5 low threatening guy, who is 6 foot 8inches and uses 41 strides to cover a 100m in 9.58 seconds runs the anchor leg.
It is also logical that the man with the two fastest anchor legs ever recorded remain on anchor leg, and that man isn't the "9.5 low threatening guy".
Bolt is best used on the third leg.
Maybe third leg is best in order to try to run the fastest time and if we're shooting for a WR, and assuming that JAM doesn't somehow by fluke end up in lane 1 or 2 which might negate a little of Bolt's turn superiority. But on the other hand if a gold medal is more important, and there's the slightest chance of the race being close or of any unexpected mishaps on the earlier legs, some of us might prefer the anchor who has the best chance of not caving to pressure in a close race and who has the best chance of switching to an otherworldy gear to make up for any unexpected shortcomings on earlier legs. Despite the fact that Bolt may not have the fastest previous anchor splits, isn't it possible that if healthy he might give JAM the best chance of coming from behind or of maintaining a lead if challenged, should by some miracle that be necessary?
JumboElliott wrote:Look at what the US did in Osaka, put Gay there and Asafa was so far behind that he had no chance despite a furious charge to the line.
1) Bolt of 2007 vintage wasn't the man he is today.
2) Most of Jamaica's deficit was due to Bolt switching the baton from his left hand to his right and all the problems that created on the second exchange.
JumboElliott wrote:What does Bolt do best? Run the turn. I think that basically settles the argument right there.
I honestly don't know the answer to this so I'm asking... Is it known for sure that Bolt runs the turn best because he's truly superior in the art of running turns, or is it at least in part because he's so much faster than everybody else once he's moving that he does just about everything better? People may feel he runs the turn better than Powell, Blake, Carter, Frater, and others, but isn't it also possible that he may run the final anchor stretch even better if it's required of him?
It would be interesting to see a 200m Olympic caliber race on a straightaway to compare the lead Bolt has at the 110m mark in that race with the leads that he's had coming off the turns in his previous 200m victories....He usually doesn't have a problem demolishing the competition in a 100, so will he actually gain more of an advantage for Jamaica running a turn in London than he would running the anchor straight? And does Asafa Powell, who I have the utmost respect for, have the same ability to do what Bolt can do on anchor if by chance Jamaica doesn't have a significant lead going into the final exchange due to some unexpected problem?... Anyway, regardless of where Bolt ends up running in the 4x1 in London, there'll be valid arguments to support the decision, and unless Jamaica doesn't take home gold the decision will probably be considered a good one.
As far as I know, Powell has never faltered on a 100 final leg, although his not being able to make up a big gap is about the only blemish on that record.
Blues wrote:And does Asafa Powell, who I have the utmost respect for, have the same ability to do what Bolt can do on anchor if by chance Jamaica doesn't have a significant lead going into the final exchange due to some unexpected problem?
In Osaka in 2007, after getting the baton with a huge deficit, Powell ran the most outstanding leg of any runner in the race IMO. He didn't catch the U.S., but he did turn a six meter deficit at the exchange zone into a one meter deficit at the finish. Powell seems to be a much fiercer competitor on relays than his is in individual races.
toyracer wrote:It is also logical that the man with the two fastest anchor legs ever recorded remain on anchor leg, and that man isn't the "9.5 low threatening guy".
Bolt is best used on the third leg.
...here's how you fell on your sword: he ran his fastest relay split not anchor but on back stretch.
The times as you agree with me tell the tale, and time says Asafa is best at 2nd leg.
toyracer wrote:It is also logical that the man with the two fastest anchor legs ever recorded remain on anchor leg, and that man isn't the "9.5 low threatening guy".
Bolt is best used on the third leg.
...here's how you fell on your sword: he ran his fastest relay split not anchor but on back stretch.
The times as you agree with me tell the tale, and time says Asafa is best at 2nd leg.
(sure you saw this coming)
When did Powell run the backstretch in a major relay?
JumboElliott wrote:What does Bolt do best? Run the turn. I think that basically settles the argument right there.
Hold on, how is bolt most phenominal...41 strides over 100m and yields 9.69-9.58. These dynamics count for a lot when you are anchoring a relay and the guy (lets say just as fast by time) is even with you...
Sorry I bothered you with my silliness...Mr Avante.
When did Powell run the backstretch in a major relay?