Was Jeff PHILIPS the last top US 100m white sprinter

[Guest]

Well, this is a good conclusion...
And most ol all:
R.E.S.P.E.C.T

[abinferno]

There is nothing wrong with speculating on the effect race has on track and field events. It's a legitimate factor. There are genetic differences and predispositions present in the various races, and many of these may contribute to track and field ability. This hasn't devolved into a racist threat, or an insulting one. It is merely considering another factor such as height, or body type. If you compare a short high jumper to a tall high jumper, are you being prejudice based on height? No, you're not, and there have been several threads discussing similar things. So quit unloading your PC crap here.

[Guest]

I'm not taking a side, that's up to the list moderator(s), but race is a more subjective, and indeed a more sociological construct than height. After all, what race is Dan O'Brien, or Alberto Juantorena? What was is Ana Guevara? Cathy Freeman?

See my point- it isn't simply Black & White on the track.

Bijan

[Guest]

It's unfortunate that so many people avoid intelligent discussions that involve race, since this deprives us of a great deal of learning experiences. This discussion about the lack of successfull caucasian actually is the tip of a fascinating psycological/sociological iceberg.
Like some other people have mentioned, the fact that many other countries in Europe and Asia have produced quite a few successful caucasian sprinter over the past 20+ years (Pietro Mennea, Vitaly Savin, Gier Moen, Marcin Urbas, Kostantinos Kanteris, etc.), while the U.S. with it's vast pool of talented coaches and excellent training facilities has not. This evidence alone is enough to suggest that there might be some other factor at work than a simple lack of talent. Is it possible that young caucasian sprinters in these other countries are encouraged and made to believe in their potential to succeed in track more than in the U.S.? I don't know, but it always been a very fascinating phenomena to me, and I wish I had more information and knowledge about psychology and sociology to study the topic.
I just hope that people will stop being so overly sensetive about the topic of race, and allow us to grow from an intelligent foray into the subject.

[Guest]

Of course there are other factors besides race. Whites in the US and other Western countries have been brainwashed into thinking they can't compete against blacks at all. This is a fact. The media in the US never misses a chance to degrade whites whether it comes to sports, motion pictures, or the dumb white guy in TV commercials.

That said, even though some countries have produced great white sprinters, the fact is that the sheer number of great black sprinters should make it obvious that there is a high number of individuals with the physiological make up to be world class sprinters when it comes to blacks. Or, more precisely, blacks of W. African descent. So what? Obviously Nordic whites and Slavic whites apparently have high numbers of individuals predisposed to possessing great physical strength. Don't see too many black competitors do well when they enter the World's Strongest Man competition, etc. Yes, there are black strong men here and there, just as one finds the odd white sprinter with great ability. But they are the exceptions to the rule.

Someone mentioned Alberto. He's white. The 'fro he sported confused people. I'm white (Italian/Irish), and I sported the same hairdo in the 70's for a few years.

[Guest]

A poster gave a racial classification for Alberto Juantorena (though I doubt the poster has met or seen Juantorena's siblngs, parents or grands, which is a good idea if you're using the word "white" by U.S. standards in a nation such as Cuba, Puerto Rico or the Dominican Republic- ask Gloria Estefan and Geraldo Rivera about the Black grandmothers both have described during interviews).

I would ask that poster (who inadvertently admitted that the Italian/Irish can grow an "afro" hairstyle),what race is Dan O'Brien? He was a great athlete- to which side of his family do we attribute that?

As for the ESPN Strongest Man Contest, is the poster familiar w/ US Olympic and AAU history, which includes 1950's powerlifter John Davis,shot putter Michael Carter,and many other weight throwers? In the annals of US sport, were Gene "Big Daddy" Lipscomb, Jim Parker,Ernie Ladd,Manny and Otis Sistrunk and Cecil Fielder not strong?

[michael lewis]

"what race is Dan O'Brien"

So far as I know he's half African-American and half Caucasian.

[Guest]

Being of half mixed race Caribbean heritage myself(my mother is partially spanish, black, french and east indian and maybe other european heritage) To say that Juanteria is white being superficial as I have many relatives who look one race and you wouldn't know that they have one ancestry or another. I myself look southern european looking and you wouldn't think I have any black ancestry....

[Guest]

As a pysch student, and beyond, I had to take genetics courses. As a sports author/speaker, Ive been to Cuba. This is too long a topic for one thread post, but it is impossible to define Cubans and Brazilians (from countries where intermarriage has been legal for ages, and even the colonists have ancestors that lived under Moorish rule from 711 to 1492)by U.S. racial standards. You have to see immediate family members, trust me. Genetics are unpredictable.

The U.S. doesn't do a great job of steering children of any background into track and field- the WNBA, "Sports Center" and "NBA Inside Stuff" are where young athletes get their role models. Who knows what sort of decathlete Jason Seahorn or Serena Williams would have been?

No one ever answered what race gold medalist Cathy Freeman is.

Bijan

[Guest]

Finally we're getting somewhere. "Race is indeed real" noted that sometimes unfounded stereotypes cause groups of people to self-discriminate (in his/her example, whites who are "brainwashed" into thinking they can't compete physically against blacks). And, obviously, there's no shortage of evidence that certain groups will discriminate against others because of unfounded stereotypes.

"...the fact is that the sheer number of great black sprinters should make it obvious that there is a high number of individuals with the physiological make up to be world class sprinters when it comes to blacks. Or, more precisely, blacks of W. African descent. So what?"

So what? So why are you asking questions based on skin colour in the first place? What possible use can come of the information? What will others do with the information? I'll refer again to Philip Rushton from the University of Western Ontario, who did research showing (and someone correct me if I'm wrong here) differences in brain size, intelligence, sexual behaviour, etc. between whites, blacks and asians.

Even if the differences are real (and I'm certainly not saying they are), will knowledge of them be used by anyone in a positive way?

[michael lewis]

"No one ever answered what race gold medalist Cathy Freeman is."

I will hazard an educated guess that people who study these things seriously would probably answer "Australian aboriginoid", meaning a population group, ie. a race? (the dimwit answer of course, is 400 metres)

[Guest]

It's unfortunate that so many people avoid intelligent discussions that involve race, since this deprives us of a great deal of learning experiences.

You're absolutely correct. However, I'm a track and field fan and I'm interested in the integrity of the sport. Not whether a black runner or white runner is more superior. Perhaps it will come to a point that and the "Powers to Be" will set up a breeding program and bear out the ultimate track and field athletic using race as one of the guidelines. Or maybe someone ought to just build a robot (Like Jaime' from the 60's show "Get Smart", he could high-jump 19 feet).
Whatever, it's all good.

[Guest]

"It's unfortunate that so many people avoid intelligent discussions that involve race, since this deprives us of a great deal of learning experiences"

Learning experience #1 - "race" is an extremely complicated subject - not so much related to one's skin color as to one's ancestory. The embarassing thing about this thread is how seemingly educated people break race down into "caucasian" or "black/African" when color only offers clues into one's genetic makeup. Europeans, much more exposed and educated to the areas of lineage and genetic traits, often scoff at the simplistic black/white discussions we Americans often have. In grad school I remember a German student (Stanzi) trying to understand how "educated" Americans could say "white" and "black". To quote her - "if you don't know anymore about genetics than skin color, you shouldn't say anything because you sound stupid when you do".

I'm not being PC - it's just embarassing that this thread keeps going.

[Guest]

Ii agree w/ El Supremo and others. While I too am curious about why in the speed categories of sport (the outfield,the short sprints,the football secondary),Americans of West African descent abound, I have learned that "Black" and "white" were social constructs. All of the recent specials on PBS' "Nova" regarding genetics and DNA, from last week's "Journey of Man" (where man's roots were traced by DNA imarkers in the paternal line from Central Africa to migrations to Australia, India, Turkey and China) to situations where Bay Area h.s. students were asked to guess their mytochondrial DNA roots and some were "way off"- illustrate that U.S. categories don't tell us much.

Med students always told me that dental records are the best post-mortem identifier of ethnicity. One's parents also contribute to their shoe size, voice, and their gait. Outer appearances are misleading, and travel will show you that some men who look like what Americans call "half-Caucasian, half-Black" are Dominican, others Algerian, still others Maori. Indigenous New Zealanders can grow "afros", are they Black? (the answer is not "Australian aborigine", which someone gave earlier.

Bijan

[Guest]

A lot of the material from PBS, Disover magazine etc. is presented in somewhat misleading fashion. Indeed, this month's Scientific American tries to give the impression that race may not exist - but close reading of the article(s) and info shows that is indeed real. What there is, is a broad crossover between racial groups. This is due to mainly to the fact that - gasp - we're all humans, and that there has been of course inbreeding here and there. But there are differences that can be shown in the lab and other areas. If you check the work of Dr. Gideon Ariel among others, you will see that W. African blacks, on average, have double to triple the enzyme release during muscle contraction than the average (white) European or Asian. This is average, of course, as there were white and Asian individuals with the same characteristic, but they were not the norm for their resective groups. This alone helps explain the preponderance of blacks in events requiring speed. The W. African blacks also tended to have a higher percentage of the fast twitch muscle fibers dedicated to speed. Another advantage. The whites generally had more of the fast twitch fibers needed for strength, and usually also had more slow twitch fibers as well. It isn't what we see on the outside, skin color, etc.. That's actually minor. It's what's "inside" that determines a lot of what we see on the playing fields, swimming pools, gyms, etc. Not a big deal, it's just the way things are.

[Guest]

I've ignored this string until now because I feel that "race" is a near-useless word, with a genuinely nasty history and tons of ideological baggage. "Race" is a cultural concept, not a scientific one. That said, there are very real differences in genetic populations, as a result of geographic separation (and differing climactic adjustment) in eons past. These genetic differences may be very small from one genetic "group" to another, but in athletics they have a very real effect, since world class athletes come from the top .001% of the gene pool (that is, they are not "average" in any real way). All of this has NOTHING to do with "intelligence," cultural superiority or inferiority, or any other such toxic notions.

[Guest]

Cathy Freeman is an Australian Aborigine. In the book "TAboo: Why Black Athletes Dominate..." SHe is incorrectly identified as "Black." If we define "Black" in the conventional sense as someone of "Sub-Saharan African descentt.." Cathy is surely not black. Genetic studies indicate that Australian Aborgines are most closely relate to SE Asian and Polynesian peoples. In addition, many "Blacks" (i.e. Ato Bolden by his appearance specifically) from the West Indies are most certainly mixed with East Asians and Asians from the sub-continent(ie India)Ato actually has features very characteristic of Indian descent.

[Thekid1]

First he is mixed not white... Second reason he didn't finish running is because she shattered his ankle and then later got married n had a kid.... In 3 races against Lewis he won 2 of them.. All which were leading up to the 84 Olympic games in which Lewis went on to fame for winning 5 godal medals. Had not been for Jeff Phillips injury history could have been different.

[Avante]

I always get a big kick out of this topic. Right off the bat .,..racism/racist Talk about ridiculous. What we are all blind as a bat? When you talk reality you talk reality and that's what this topic is all about.

It works like this......all blacks are not fast. But the fastest humans are black. Now if that is not 100% accurate show me where it isn't. Nothing about being a racist or racism...sheesh~~~~~~~~ Little people might need to play that for some silly reason.

Ok the last world ranked USA white 100m man was Georgia Tech's Ben Vaughn. Early 70's. The last white Olympic 100m medalist from the US.... Dukes Dave Sime a silver in 1960. The last white sprinter to run on a USA Oly 4x1...Dartmouths Gerry Ashworth. The US white 100m record is held by Drake's Kevin Little..10.14.

People please, don't get off into that race stuff as if it just has to be negative/bad...it doesn't. If I wanna hear some Reggae, it will not be some white cat from Nashville.

[Marlow]

the fastest humans are black.

Lemaitre is among the .0000001% fastest people on the planet. How's that for one of the fastest?

[Avante]

the fastest humans are black.

Lemaitre is among the .0000001% fastest people on the planet. How's that for one of the fastest?

Has he ever held a 100m world record...nope!
Has he ever medaled in a Worlds/Olympic 100m...nope!
Has he ever ran a sub 9.90, 9.80, 9.70, 9.60...nope!
Would is PR stack up....

Usain Bolt
Carl Lewis
Ato Boldon
Bruny Surin
Linfor.....

Hell the list is just toooooo long.

Hell no he's not among the fastest. Where did you get that silly idea? What's the NCAA record...yep better than CL's PR.

You drinking again?

Check it out....

Worlds Fastest Sprinter

lane

1.Donovan Bailey
2.Nesta Carter
3.Asafa Powell
4.Tyson Gay
5.Usain Bolt
6.Yohan Blake
7.Mo Greene
8.Justin Gatlin

"B"

lane

1.Leroy Burrell
2.Bruny Surin
3.Linford Christie
4.Frankie Fredericks
5.Ato Boldon
6.Carl Lewis
7.Francis Obikwelu
8.Richard Thompson


Does he even make the "C" race?

[Marlow]

Would is PR stack up....

Carl Lewis

C Lewis - 9.86
C Lemaitre - 9.92

yes, it does stack up rather nicely.

[Avante]

Would is PR stack up....

Carl Lewis

C Lewis - 9.86
C Lemaitre - 9.92

yes, it does stack up rather nicely.

You gotta be kidding

You honestly see this kid in with all those I mentioned? Dude...

And how many black sprinters between him and the next fastest white sprinter? A few tons!

The fastest sprinters are black. Just like I said.

Ok Marlow if we take the fastest 100m sprinters of all time how many are white?

[Marlow]

The fastest sprinters are black.

Lemaitre, at 9.92, is indeed WORLD-class and one of the fastest people on the planet. At the last WORLD championships he was FOURTH.

[Avante]

The fastest sprinters are black.

Lemaitre, at 9.92, is indeed WORLD-class and one of the fastest people on the planet. At the last WORLD championships he was FOURTH.

Well he actually took...FOURTH...because Gay, Powell and Bolt didn't run.

He is not among the fastest sprinters of all time. And yes the fastest sprinters are black.

Now answer my question you ignored. How many white sprinters in the top 100 of all time?

I'm not talking about...one...sprinter like you must. I can talk about a ton of sprinters, you are stuck with but one. That doesn't tell you something? It should.

Take away Usain Bolt we have Mo Greene, take away Mo we have Tyson Gay, take away Tyson Gay we have Asaf.....and on and on and and on and.......take away CL....you got nothing.

Last white American to win the Olympic 100m...1956
Last white sprinter to hold the 100m WR...Armin Hary back in the 60's
Greatest white sprinter of all time...Valery Borzov....10.07PR.

Something tells me you get it but are bored.

[mrbowie]

Poor pathetic bastard, nobody wants to play your silly-ass games with you?

What does that tell you, pal?

[Avante]

Poor pathetic bastard, nobody wants to play your silly-ass games with you?

What does that tell you, pal?

I didn't orginate this thread now did I? What games? You have a hard time dealing with reality....well? That would be a poor pathetic bastard. You might need to deal in a fantasy world.....I don't. If you have some reason to ignore real life........good for it. I don't play that.

Oh yeah....I'm not your pal, I stay away from guys like you.

Now if you can find anything I said wrong......do it....otherwise mind your own business.

This thread is about a ..white...sprinter, now what's that tell you?

[79.]

The original post about Jeff PHILIPS was from me almost 10 years ago...
No world-class white US sprinter yet.

[gennady]

The original post about Jeff PHILIPS was from me almost 10 years ago...
No world-class white US sprinter yet.

Generally, Jeff was a world-class sprinter(80-81). Look at the results, and most importantly the names of the competition, which he won.
22 63 10.0m 0,0 Jeff Phillips 1 Knoxville TN 24May1980
__ 167 10,32 1,1 Jeff Phillips 7 NCAA Austin TX 6Jun1980
5 10 10,11 1,8 Jeff Phillips 1sf3 NCAA Baton Rouge LA 5Jun1981
__ __ 10,00 2,5 Jeff Phillips 2 NCAA Baton Rouge LA 5Jun1981
__ 18 10,14 0,0 Jeff Phillips 2 TB CI Knoxville TN 23May1981
__ 37 10,20 -2,4 Jeff Phillips 1h1 Gainesville FL 15May1981 10.04/w=0
__ 45 10,21 1,3 Jeff Phillips 1 USAvsURS Leningrad 10Jul1981
__ 78 10,26 0,0 Jeff Phillips 1 Knoxville TN 2May1981
__ 91 10,28 0,0 Jeff Phillips 2h2 TB CI Knoxville TN 23May1981
__ 97 10,29 -0,2 Jeff Phillips 2 SEC Gainesville FL 16May1981
__ 144 10,33 2,0 Jeff Phillips 2h2 ISTAF West Berlin 21Aug1981
__ 183 10,36 -0,9 Jeff Phillips 4 WK Zürich 19Aug1981
__ 230 10,39 -0,6 Jeff Phillips 2h3 WK Zürich 19Aug1981
__ 321 10,44 -0,1 Jeff Phillips 1h2 NCAA Baton Rouge LA 4Jun1981
12 32 10,18 -0,9 Jeff Phillips 2r1 WK Zürich 18Aug1982
__ 43 10,20 0,4 Jeff Phillips 1 Cal R Westwood CA 16May1982
__ __ 10,22 0,0 Jeff Phillips 2 Paris 9Jul1982
__ 81 10,26 -0,9 Jeff Phillips 1r1 BGP Budapest 30Jun1982
__ 82 10,26 0,0 Jeff Phillips 1 DNG Stockholm 6Jul1982
__ 115 10,29 -0,8 Jeff Phillips 1h3 WK Zürich 18Aug1982
__ 117 10,29 0,0 Jeff Phillips 1 Eugene OR 25Sep1982
__ 169 10,33 1,2 Jeff Phillips 2r1 Stuttgart 29Aug1982
__ 277 10,39 -0,5 Jeff Phillips 1 Bislett/GP Oslo 26Jun1982
__ 279 10,39 0,0 Jeff Phillips 1 Athletissima Lausanne 14Jul1982
__ 284 10,39 -1,0 Jeff Phillips 3r1 Nikaia Nice 14Aug1982
56 __ 10,30 -1,4 Jeff Phillips 2 Malmö 1Aug1983

[Marlow]

And THIS is why this topic is so unbelievably stupid:

USA Jeff Phillips, although he appears at first glance to be white, is mixed race. I knew him fairly well since he came from the Columbus area and attended Ohio State for a few quarters.

Obama: African dad, Caucasian (which is also a complete misnomer) mom. Which is he? Either answer is fundamentally wrong.

[Avante]

And THIS is why this topic is so unbelievably stupid:

USA Jeff Phillips, although he appears at first glance to be white, is mixed race. I knew him fairly well since he came from the Columbus area and attended Ohio State for a few quarters.

Obama: African dad, Caucasian (which is also a complete misnomer) mom. Which is he? Either answer is fundamentally wrong.

You really need to get out more Marlow.

What did we hear when Doug Wiliams won the Superbowl?

What is Jackie Robinson known for?

When CL did run his first sub10.00 what did T&FN have to say about it?

What's Ernie Davis known for?

How about Jack Johnson?

Do you know who Jerry Levias was?

Why do we need to be told that John Taylor was the first black to win a medal in Olympic competition?

Why do we need to be told who was the first black guy (DeFord Bailey a harmonica player) to perform at the Grand Old Opry?

Why are we told that USC sprinter Howard Drew was the first black sprinter to hold a sprint WR?

Why are we told that George "Little Chocolate" Dixon was the first black boxer to win a world Championship?


There is nothing stupid about this. You might not have noticed it but everyone else has, sprinting is dominated by black sprinters especially here in the USA. Stupid is playing pretend.


To anyone reading this...

Nobody is saying anything bad or negative. There is no logical reason in the world to have to play pretend. We see anything totally dominated by such a small & of a population and it's .....curious and worth talking about. To watch people act like some of you do....it's sad. Real life is real life, no need to ignore that.

[Rob]

Agree 100% with Avante.

That's why it's so interesting when a white sprinter comes along who can dominate - because it is such a rare event. Same thing applies to long jumpers, sprint hurdlers, NFL wide receivers, etc.

Reverse situation for javelin throwers, pole vaulters, rowers, cyclists, etc.

Blindingly obvious to anyone who takes any interest in sport.

[Avante]

The original post about Jeff PHILIPS was from me almost 10 years ago...
No world-class white US sprinter yet.

Well there was Kevin Little.

[Avante]

Agree 100% with Avante.

That's why it's so interesting when a white sprinter comes along who can dominate - because it is such a rare event. Same thing applies to long jumpers, sprint hurdlers, NFL wide receivers, etc.

Reverse situation for javelin throwers, pole vaulters, rowers, cyclists, etc.

Blindingly obvious to anyone who takes any interest in sport.

Well I'll be damn...cool

Knowing the depth of the water it is best to let this lay, it can never be talked about intelligently. Someone always has to.....well you now.

[79.]

And THIS is why this topic is so unbelievably stupid:

USA Jeff Phillips, although he appears at first glance to be white, is mixed race. I knew him fairly well since he came from the Columbus area and attended Ohio State for a few quarters.

Obama: African dad, Caucasian (which is also a complete misnomer) mom. Which is he? Either answer is fundamentally wrong.

And this is why someone spending his time believing he knows everything about anything
anyhow, anywhere and anywhen can become so unbelievably stupid...
( Marlow, Tafnut, Nunut... or whatever this post is for you)