Time Britain Had another Great Female Sprinter

[mump boy]

Be afraid

[MDelano]

Well, training with the Jamaicans didn't seem help her last year and she's not the first European to experience this. The sunshine must be nice but the whole yearly training approach of the Jamaican groups seems quite different from what is done elsewhere, and I have my doubts whether you can do it for a few weeks/months and then switch back to something else succesfully.

[lsabre]

A solid point, MDelano, but I hope it gets third time lucky for Christine Ohuruogu out of a Jamaican-substantially-based build-up to the season. I'm also eagerly awaiting to get some update on Nicola Sanders's progress this winter for that matter.

Another sensational new presence that has caught my eye lately, although mainly a hurdler, is also 15-year-old Yasmin Miller who has already run 8.62 secs over the hurdles twice as well as a 7.66 over the flat 60m and 24.80 secs over 200m! I reckon she's definitely worth a note!

[mump boy]

Well, training with the Jamaicans didn't seem help her last year and she's not the first European to experience this. The sunshine must be nice but the whole yearly training approach of the Jamaican groups seems quite different from what is done elsewhere, and I have my doubts whether you can do it for a few weeks/months and then switch back to something else succesfully.

One should always be afraid of TBO whether she has been training in Jamaica or Antarctica

[shivfan]

Well, training with the Jamaicans didn't seem help her last year and she's not the first European to experience this. The sunshine must be nice but the whole yearly training approach of the Jamaican groups seems quite different from what is done elsewhere, and I have my doubts whether you can do it for a few weeks/months and then switch back to something else succesfully.

It's not exactly a 'whole yearly training approach', though....

The athletes attached to MVP and Track Racers took a break in the autumn, when the CWG were going on. But yes, the Jamaican approach is probably a bit more intensive and gruelling than what athletes from other countries might be used to. I would think that CO should be sticking to the Track Racers regime for most of this year. If she starts with the Track Racers programme, and then switches to a British training regime later in the year, it certainly won't work. I would thiunk that Cowan should be working with Glen Mills to determine what CO's programme should be for the year.

[Jon]

Why British sprint fans are hopeful after last weekend:
http://www.athleticsweekly.com/blog/tal ... the-trend/

[t_monk]

CO is back in training in Jamaica, with the Track Racers....

http://www.rjrnewsonline.com/sports/ath ... ng-jamaica

'“I’m just focusing on getting myself back to full fitness and hopefully I will be in good form going into the World Championships in August,” she said. It is the second straight year that Ohuruogu is working out with the Racers Track Club. Her coach, Jamaican-born Llowd Cowan, who is an Olympic coach with UK Athletics, says he would not have any other way. “The location is great, at this time of year in the UK it’s snowing and cold, you can’t motivate athletes to run in the snow, so it’s a nice environment to come here and run and be able to train and relax,” Cowan said.'

..... Hmm.... My major concern about Christine O coming to JA to train really is her coach here. Glenn Mills (and I have nothing but respect for the man) isn't all that known for his expertise with female sprinters. One can argue that he had a number of very talented females under his tutelage for a while and it simply has not panned out all that great over the last couple of seasons....

But we'll simply have to watch and see. At the very least though she will have been able to train in some nice, warm weather.

[mump boy]

CO is back in training in Jamaica, with the Track Racers....

http://www.rjrnewsonline.com/sports/ath ... ng-jamaica

'“I’m just focusing on getting myself back to full fitness and hopefully I will be in good form going into the World Championships in August,” she said. It is the second straight year that Ohuruogu is working out with the Racers Track Club. Her coach, Jamaican-born Llowd Cowan, who is an Olympic coach with UK Athletics, says he would not have any other way. “The location is great, at this time of year in the UK it’s snowing and cold, you can’t motivate athletes to run in the snow, so it’s a nice environment to come here and run and be able to train and relax,” Cowan said.'

..... Hmm.... My major concern about Christine O coming to JA to train really is her coach here. Glenn Mills (and I have nothing but respect for the man) isn't all that known for his expertise with female sprinters. One can argue that he had a number of very talented females under his tutelage for a while and it simply has not panned out all that great over the last couple of seasons....

But we'll simply have to watch and see. At the very least though she will have been able to train in some nice, warm weather.

i'm pretty sure LLoyd is there i'm pretty sure i read he was and i can't imagine him leaving her side either

[skiboo]

Bump.

Desiree Henry won the IAAF World Youth Championship 200 in a blistering 23.25. Coached by Mike McFarlane, also coach of Jodie Williams. Britain is looking to be in good form.

[Tuariki]

To be a great female sprinter you need to have an Olympic Gold and a World record.

These are great female sprinters:

Flo Jo
Evelyn Ashford
Marita Koch
Renate Stecher
Wyomia Tyus
Wilma Rudolph
Betty Cuthbert
Fanny Blankers Koen

Sorry, but Great Britain has never had a great female sprinter - good "yes", great "no".

Therefore, this thread should have a header of "Who might be Britain's first great female sprinter?"

[mump boy]

To be a great female sprinter you need to have an Olympic Gold and a World record.

These are great female sprinters:

Flo Jo
Evelyn Ashford
Marita Koch
Renate Stecher
Wyomia Tyus
Wilma Rudolph
Betty Cuthbert
Fanny Blankers Koen

Sorry, but Great Britain has never had a great female sprinter - good "yes", great "no".

Therefore, this thread should have a header of "Who might be Britain's first great female sprinter?"

Semantics

i wouldn't call the above 'great' i'd call them 'amazing'

Cathy Cook
Sonia Lannerman
Dorothy Hyman

were GREAT sprinters

[Tuariki]

Hello mump boy

As a former subservient colonial happy to put the "great" back into Britain and concede to the ranking order of "amazing - great - good "

[gennady]

To be a great female sprinter you need to have an Olympic Gold and a World record.

These are great female sprinters:

Flo Jo
Evelyn Ashford
Marita Koch
Renate Stecher
Wyomia Tyus
Wilma Rudolph
Betty Cuthbert
Fanny Blankers Koen

Sorry, but Great Britain has never had a great female sprinter - good "yes", great "no".


Therefore, this thread should have a header of "Who might be Britain's first great female sprinter?"

I would necessarily added any to this list Irena Szewinska.

[vip]

The most overused word in sports is "great." It gets more diluted by the hour. Britain has never had a great sprinter. And even the so-called great sprinters in history owe their greatness to, um, artificial help.

[mump boy]

The most overused word in sports is "great." It gets more diluted by the hour. Britain has never had a great sprinter. And even the so-called great sprinters in history owe their greatness to, um, artificial help.

Boring

[vip]

Just slightly more boring than your post. Slightly.

[Daisy]

Britain has never had a great sprinter

Are you restricting this to the women 100?

[Flumpy]

So according to Tuariki's criteria Marlies and Merlene aren't great???

[Tuariki]

Hello Flumpy

First, my list wasn't an exhaustive list. Also I have decided to be supportive of mump boy's desperate insistence that Britain has "great" female sprinters and so added the "amzing" category. Therefore, Flumpy is correct Marlies and Merlnene are not great because:

Marlies Gohr ranks as "amazing" as she has Olympic Golds (albeit for the relays), world records and world championship golds.

Merlene Ottey also ranks as "amazing" as she also has Olympic Golds (albeit for the relays), world records and world championship golds.

I hadn't mentioned world championship golds before because one could argue that was possibly a bit unfair on the pre 1983 athletes; and I think most athletes would rather have an Olympic Gold rather than a World Championship Gold.

As mump boy is insistent that the likes of Dorothy Hyman is a "great" sprinter, and she was arguably the best Brtish female sprinter ever, then (tongue in cheek) I guess mump boy is happy for Britain to stay mired in the realms of second best, because in no way can Dorothy Hyman be considered to be at the "amazing" level.

[skiboo]

To be a great female sprinter you need to have an Olympic Gold and a World record.

Oops, sorry, it is now "amazing" and not merely great. To get to the real point: Do you think that before the year 2100 we shall see a sprinter who is amazing, because in order to do so she'll have to surpass any of 10.49, 21.34 or 47.60, plus win an Olympic gold medal. Good luck.

As for allowing Gohr and Ottey into the super echelons of amazingness on the basis of relay gold medals (to save yourself the embarrassment of relegating them to mere "greatness"), nice try, but so far as I can tell this thread is about individual greatness (or splendiferousness).

A few other consequences of making a World Record one of your criteria - we'll just have to live with Marie Jose-Perec, Barbel Wockel and Jarmila Kratochvilova being second-tier performers. And Perec (or anyone for that matter) had/has how much of a chance of being a WR holder?

[mump boy]

Can't we just have an amusing bit of banter anymore without pendants stepping in to make spoil it ?

I would suggest that this is a pretty great set of achievements for someone who retired at 23

CHAMPIONSHIP PERFORMANCES:
Olympics: 1960 silver 100m, bronze 200m, 1964 bronze 4x100m. European: 1958 silver 4x100m, 1962 Gold 100m, silver 200m, bronze 4x100m. Commonwealth: 1958 Gold 4x110y, 1962 Gold 100y, Gold 220y, silver 4x110y.

3 times ranked No1 over 100 or 200m 2 times ranked No2

Is Dorothy Hyman an all time great ? No but nobody suggested she was, just that it would be nice if GB could once again have a world class female sprinter.

I don't think arguing the semantics of the word great is really necessary, is it ?

[John G]

Meanwhile, back in our little Anglo-centric world, I'm really excited by the prospect of three - let's say 'half decent' sprinters - competing at the trials. A 100m involving Williams, Kwakye and Philip will be worth the admission fee for me. Asha Philip looked superb the other week beating Jodie Williams and I'll be really surprised if both aren't running 11.0x in the next 24 months. I'll pause at this point for USAnian and Jamacan fans to scoff. But after years of Joice Maduaka (bless her) winning national champs, this is getting me really excited.

[Speedster]

A link to Asha's race is here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Z5jg0Hwshg&sns=em

A video of her knee injury is in the related videos section, it's horrific and makes me feel a little nauseous. Great to see any athlete come back from that.

[mump boy]

And the article on the front page shows what a determined young lady she is she couldn't run for 4 years !! most people would have given up.

I love the fact that she and Jodie and Desiree all train together with Mike McFarlane and Jodie's dad is setting up a dedicated sprint group to concentrate on making sure they all make it successfully to senior ranks.

how bout Gold in 4x1 in Rio

[Flumpy]

Merlene Ottey also ranks as "amazing" as she also has Olympic Golds (albeit for the relays), world records and world championship golds.

No she doesn't

[Tuariki]

Merlene Ottey also ranks as "amazing" as she also has Olympic Golds (albeit for the relays), world records and world championship golds.

No she doesn't

Sorry flumpy - the dangers of cutting and pasting. I meant to refer to her world champ performances. However, she is also amazing for other reasons - longevity, body shape - looks.

Is Dorothy Hyman an all time great ? No but nobody suggested she was, just that it would be nice if GB could once again have a world class female sprinter.

I don't think arguing the semantics of the word great is really necessary, is it ?

There is a big difference between great and world class. GB&NI has had many world class female sprinters and I am sure will have many more in the future. Asha Philip and Jodie Williams seem to have all the qualities to get there.

And while you never said Dorothy Hyman was an all time great the thread is headed up "another great female sprinter" which implies that GB&NI had at least one great in the past. And in my opinion that person must be Dorothy Hyman as I think she has the best credentials of any GB&NI female sprinter.

[gh]

I would say that anybody who has reached No. 1 in the World Rankings more than once is worthy of "great"

You could go look in our Rankings-By-Nation archive if you were a mind, but I'm feeling kindly tonite so let me parse it this way for you (this is from '56 on):

1962 100 1 Dorothy Hyman (Great Britain)
1963 100 1 Dorothy Hyman (Great Britain)
1960 100 2 Dorothy Hyman (Great Britain)
1975 100 2 Andrea Lynch (Great Britain)
1977 100 2 Sonia Lannaman (Great Britain)
1974 100 3 Andrea Lynch (Great Britain)
1981 100 3 Kathy Cook (Great Britain)
1958 100 4 Heather Young (Great Britain)
1976 100 5 Sonia Lannaman (Great Britain)
1958 100 6 Madeleine Cobb (Great Britain)
1969 100 7 Dorothy Hyman (Great Britain)
1977 100 7 Andrea Lynch (Great Britain)
1956 100 8 June Paul (Great Britain)
1960 100 8 Jennifer Smart (Great Britain)
1962 100 8 Daphne Arden (Great Britain)
1978 100 8 Sonia Lannaman (Great Britain)
1979 100 8 Heather Hunte (Great Britain)
1956 100 9 Heather Young (Great Britain)
1964 100 9 Dorothy Hyman (Great Britain)
1980 100 9 Kathy Cook (Great Britain)
1957 100 10 Madeleine Cobb (Great Britain)
1968 100 10 Valerie Peat (Great Britain)
1969 100 10 Anita Neil (Great Britain)
2008 100 10 Jeanette Kwakye (Great Britain)

[Tuariki]

Defining "great" is a bit like defining "favourite". We all have our own opinions and definitions. And certainly it is hard to argue against GH's suggested definition of 2 times being ranked #1 in the world by T&FN. Which of course would confirm Dorothy Hyman as a "great" and GB&NI's greatest.

However, I still prefer restricting "great" to those who have actual won golds at the Olympics or Worlds and/or set world records. I am sure Jay Silvester would have willing swapped his 3 #1 rankings for a single one of Oerter's golds.

I think of tennis and Caroline Wozniacki who was ranked #1 for the last 2 years but has never come close to winning even a single major. I don't think any tennis affionado would consider Wozniacki to be one of the greats, even though she was #1 for a long time.

[gh]

being an Olympic gold medalist requires being "lucky" in one meet in 4 years. That's a very tough requirement (see Jay Silvester). Having said that, those who did it multiple times (viz Oerter) are truly greats. Even if not the greatest.

I would posit, by the way, that Bob Beamon is not a great. To use a baseball analogy, neither is Don Larsen, owner of the most famous pitching performance of all time. To their credit, the stewards of Baseball's HOF (the standard by which all others should be measured) have never enshrined him. Nor should they.

[Per Andersen]

being an Olympic gold medalist requires being "lucky" in one meet in 4 years. That's a very tough requirement (see Jay Silvester). Having said that, those who did it multiple times (viz Oerter) are truly greats. Even if not the greatest.

I would posit, by the way, that Bob Beamon is not a great. To use a baseball analogy, neither is Don Larsen, owner of the most famous pitching performance of all time. To their credit, the stewards of Baseball's HOF (the standard by which all others should be measured) have never enshrined him. Nor should they.

I agree with your first point about being "lucky" in one meet in 4 years.

About Beamon. Would you hold the same view if the '68 Olympics were held at sea-level and Beamon jumped 8.60 (28-2 3/4) with legal wind?

I am well aware that you believe the wind was in excess of 2.0 but you can't know with certainty by how much or if at all.

Just for my own interest. Would you consider Fosbury a great?

[gh]

[....

About Beamon. Would you hold the same view if the '68 Olympics were held at sea-level and Beamon jumped 8.60 (28-2 3/4) with legal wind?

I don't think he would have jumped that far with legal wind. (but if he had, sure, it'd be great; but nothing before/after suggested to me that was a truly viable option)

[72]

The word "great" is one of the most overused and subjective words that the hyped up world of the 21st Century uses. Personally I use the word only for the very finest athletes ever and use other words like "outstanding", "excellent","fine" but not "great". You have to have in your vocab some word to define or select the truly special athletes in Tand F history in a number of criteria .

How about Nurmi, Zatopek, Owens,Bubka, Johnson,C. Lewis,Coe, maybe Bolt in time, to name but a few;
In the 80s,I recall Carl Lewis was voted top of the greats in an IAAF search for the top ten athletes of all time and the worlds leading statisticians used the criteria set out in the following paragraph.

To get my personal use of "great"the criteria must include victories in head to head, WC and OG Golds, domination of fellow athletes, world records and very much the time at the top.

I am surprised that two years at the top of a Ranking list is deemed to confer greatness upon an athlete, but we all have our opinions

[72]

The word "great" is one of the most overused and subjective words that the hyped up world of the 21st Century uses. Personally I use the word only for the very finest athletes ever and use other words like "outstanding", "excellent","fine" but not "great". You have to have in your vocab some word to define or select the truly special athletes in Tand F history in a number of criteria .

How about Nurmi, Zatopek, Owens,Bubka, Johnson,C. Lewis,Coe, maybe Bolt in time, to name but a few;
In the 80s,I recall Carl Lewis was voted top of the greats in an IAAF search for the top ten athletes of all time and the worlds leading statisticians used the criteria set out in the following paragraph.

To get my personal use of "great"the criteria must include victories in head to head, WC and OG Golds, domination of fellow athletes, world records and very much the time at the top.

I am surprised that two years at the top of a Ranking list is deemed to confer greatness upon an athlete, but we all have our opinions

[Giant Panda]

Laughing out loud at the people who are so tone deaf they don't see the word "great" in the thread title a pun on the name of the country.

The ignorance in dismissing Dorothy Hyman is pitiful. At the Rome Olympics she won silver in the 100m, a bronze in the 200m and bronze again in the 4x100m. In 1962 she competed at the European Championships and the Commonwealth Games. In Perth and Belgrade her combined medal haul was three golds, two silvers and a bronze.

The next great British sprinter won't need to accomplish too much to stand out as the country's best. Consistently reaching global finals and having name recognition with the public as the best in the land for a couple of championship cycles ought to be sufficient to elevate the next one above the recent past, Christine Ohuruogu excepted.

[mump boy]

I've been meaning to post this for weeks but keep forgetting

Flump and I go training twice a week at the track in Battersea Park, it's a real treat for track fans. Our trainer is Ben Challenger, last week Jon Ridgeon was training someone for a charity race, Daley Thompson has a training group every saturday and today Dean Macey was there as well

There's also a lady who trains a group of kids there all the time, she looks in her 50's, is very light skinned mixed race and has a very pronounced american accent, she looks vaguely familiar.

The other week Ben said to me 'you know she's been to 2 olympics ?, she was a sprinter in the 70's', 'I replied that i didn't know many US female sprinters from the 70's, 'No' ha says 'she ran for UK'

The penny dropped along with my jaw and i almost started cryin , it's only Andrea Lynch

Ben then embarrassed me by calling her over and introducing me as a big fan

Now she says hello to me every week and this makes me very

World ranked 3rd in 74 and 2nd in 75 her 11.16 from 1975 is still the 6th faster ever in the UK (2 times above are widely regarded as nonsense, including the UK record)