RIP: Joe Paterno

[Avante]

The internet...hahaha! Guy dies, make that...a legend dies and people wanna argue...was it stress, the firing, How about the guy was an old man?

[tafnut]

The internet...hahaha! Guy dies, make that...a legend dies and people wanna argue...was it stress, the firing, How about the guy was an old man?

??!! I'm pretty sure we ALL know it was - the cancer . . . at 85 cancer gets pretty hard to beat, but the rate at which one declines varies, but it is possible that the 'stress' (I agree with Pego that the word is pretty vague) accelerated Paterno's decline.

[dukehjsteve]

Well some of you raked me over the coals for my remark about wishing it had all come out six months later..... you've misinterpreted what I was trying to say.... so let me amend by saying...

It's a shame Paterno did not die 6 months earlier so he could have been spared this unhappiness at the end of his life.

If anyone disagrees with this, they are just being vindictive.

[Conor Dary]

That is what I thought you meant. And I still disagree.

I don't quite see where the vindictiveness comes from. That seems to imply some sort of hatred towards Pope Joe, which is not true for me. But he does bear responsibility and considering his immense power, he pretty much did the bare minimum, primarily, it seems, to escape legal liability. And the idea that Paterno could go gently into that good night without realizing the mess he partly created seems not quite right.

[gh]

If anyone doubts the negative effects of stress on the immune system, ask someone who gets cold sores(HSV type 1)

As a 45-year acquaintance of Mr. Herpe, I bring an unfortunate amount of familiarity with the subject to the table. Perhaps you have a different defintion of "immune system" than I, but as all my docs have explained it (and dovetails with my taking of graduate-level immunology waaay back in the day, remembering just enough to be dangerous to mysellf), a stress-related cold sore comes from the release of adrenaline. Which has zero to do with the immune system.

[tafnut]

It's a shame Paterno did not die 6 months earlier so he could have been spared this unhappiness at the end of his life.
If anyone disagrees with this, they are just being vindictive.

Yeah, I still have to disagree. The precipitous fall JoePa took is an excellent Cautionary Tale for like-minded people in positions of authority and responsibility. If JoePa can fall from Heaven, so can other more mortal souls.
One great lesson from all this is that any and all wrong-doings must be revealed fully and immediately. If you are not part of an aggressive solution, you are indeed part of the problem. This trickles all the way down to the anti-snitch philosophy of many, many people.

[jazzcyclist]

Great column by Rick Reilly

A man is more than his failings.

I learned a lot about Paterno when I wrote a story about him in 1986 for Sports Illustrated. I've learned a lot about him since. He was a humble, funny and giving man who was unlike any other coach I ever met in college football. He rolled up his pants to save on dry cleaning bills. He lived in the same simple ranch house for the last 45 years. Same glasses, same wife, same job, for most of his adult life.

He was a man who had two national championships, five undefeated seasons, and yet for years he drove a white Ford Tempo. In 46 years as a head coach, he never had a single major NCAA violation.

He was the only coach I've ever known who went to the board of trustees to demand they increase entrance requirements, who went to faculty club meetings to hear the lectures, who listened to opera while drawing up game plans.

He was a Depression kid who wouldn't allow stars on helmets or names on jerseys. And he hated expensive tennis shoes.

He'd see a player wearing Air Jordans and say, "It's not the sneakers, Kid, it's the person in them."

One day Taliaferro wore an entirely different pair into his office, a pair of "Air Paternos" he'd made himself. "He freaked out," Taliaferro remembers. "He was about to call Nike. He thought they were real!"

If a player was struggling with a subject, Paterno would make him come to his house for wife Sue's homemade pasta and her tutoring. One time, he told a high school blue chipper named Bob White he wouldn't recruit him unless he agreed to read 12 novels and turn in two-page book reports to Sue. They were the first books he ever finished. White wound up with two degrees and a job at the university.

http://espn.go.com/espn/story/_/id/7492 ... rue-legacy

[Conor Dary]

Today's Chicago Tribune:

'Playing football for Paterno wasn't always easy, and sometimes it took years for players to appreciate his motives and tactics. He did not forge close relationships.

Cappelletti, a running back who won the Heisman Trophy in 1973, told the Times in 1998, "I was co-captain, but I never remember approaching Joe one time to have a conversation with him."

Ham, the great Penn State linebacker and Steelers star, once said, "All of us disliked Paterno. It made us closer. He was very cold to his players."

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2012 ... ge-coach/2

[Halfmiler2]

For what it is worth, I heard from a Penn State alumnus that Harry Groves was forced to retire as track & field coach because Paterno wanted the record as longest serving coach at Penn State.

No doubt the man did good things in his life as well as the well-known failings. May he rest in peace.

[Daisy]

Today's Chicago Tribune:

'Ham, the great Penn State linebacker and Steelers star, once said, "All of us disliked Paterno. It made us closer. He was very cold to his players."

Makes you wonder if he had a form of Aspberger's syndrome.

[Pego]

Today's Chicago Tribune:

'Ham, the great Penn State linebacker and Steelers star, once said, "All of us disliked Paterno. It made us closer. He was very cold to his players."

Makes you wonder if he had a form of Aspberger's syndrome.

LMAO.

[Dutra5]

For what it is worth, I heard from a Penn State alumnus that Harry Groves was forced to retire as track & field coach because Paterno wanted the record as longest serving coach at Penn State.

No doubt the man did good things in his life as well as the well-known failings. May he rest in peace.

Can't IMAGINE! who that could be.

Let me think on that one for a few minutes

[jazzcyclist]

For what it is worth, I heard from a Penn State alumnus that Harry Groves was forced to retire as track & field coach because Paterno wanted the record as longest serving coach at Penn State.

Paterno was that petty? Come on man.

[guru]

For what it is worth, I heard from a Penn State alumnus that Harry Groves was forced to retire as track & field coach because Paterno wanted the record as longest serving coach at Penn State.

Can't IMAGINE! who that could be.

Let me think on that one for a few minutes

lol yeah no mystery there

[26mi235]

For what it is worth, I heard from a Penn State alumnus that Harry Groves was forced to retire as track & field coach because Paterno wanted the record as longest serving coach at Penn State.

No doubt the man did good things in his life as well as the well-known failings. May he rest in peace.

I have heard that story too, although I am not sure that it was from Harry. From my very brief opportunity to hear him (and what others have generally said of him) Harry never seemed afraid to tell someone what he actually thought/felt . Hopefully I will get another chance this spring. What I remember is that he certainly did not seem to be Paterno's number one fan. I did get a sense of why his athletes hold him in high regard, including malmo (if I recall correctly) who also was not afraid to say what he thinks.

[gh]

School president up in arms. What were distributed as free tix to the memorial ceremony apparently going for big bucks on eBay.

http://www.statecollege.com/news/local- ... le-989813/

[Conor Dary]

Thousands of dollars? For a memorial? Is Happy Valley the US version of North Korea? A closed off entity that has lost its leader?

You can get a Paterno football and autograph for $100,000. Seems like a steal...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-Joe-Paterno-a ... 46006af6b5

[Halfmiler2]

For what it is worth, I heard from a Penn State alumnus that Harry Groves was forced to retire as track & field coach because Paterno wanted the record as longest serving coach at Penn State.

Can't IMAGINE! who that could be.

Let me think on that one for a few minutes

lol yeah no mystery there

The person I heard it from is not someone that any of you would know. A NJ guy who is not on this board.

[Dutra5]

For what it is worth, I heard from a Penn State alumnus that Harry Groves was forced to retire as track & field coach because Paterno wanted the record as longest serving coach at Penn State.

Can't IMAGINE! who that could be.

Let me think on that one for a few minutes

lol yeah no mystery there

The person I heard it from is not someone that any of you would know. A NJ guy who is not on this board.

Yikes!

They're multiplying!

[jazzcyclist]

Did anyone else catch Phil Knight's comments at Paterno's funeral? I was surprised to see him defend Knight so unapologetically and vociferously. It kind of sounded one emperor (a powerful man surrounded by "yes" men) defending another emperor with no clothes.

[guru]

CBS staffer fired for erroneous Paterno death report

http://www.poynter.org/latest-news/medi ... th-report/

[Daisy]

CBS staffer fired for erroneous Paterno death report

At least the guy didn't make the story up. He was guilty of not verifying his primary source.

Penn State student website Onward State has reported that Penn State players were notified of longtime head coach Joe Paterno's passing via email, and CBSSports.com went on this report. Paterno, 85, had been receiving chemotherapy as part of his treatment for lung cancer.

However, Paterno family spokesperson Dan McGinn told a New York Times reporter that the report of Paterno's demise is "absolutely not true," and Jay Paterno tweeted that his father "continues to fight." Onward State has since retracted their report.

http://eye-on-collegefootball.blogs.cbs ... m%20Jacobi https://twitter.com/#!/OnwardState/stat ... 0139552769

[Brian]

I'm reminded of the passing of Bear Bryant not too long after he stepped down. I know it was a cancer diagnosis shortly after the firing, but I can't help but think his immune system was compromised.....

Extreme and prolonged stress elevates cortisol levels. Such elevated levels cause damage to the immune system after a certain amount of time, resulting in diminished physical health.
.

1. The source, please.
2. What is meant by "stress?" The standard definition as originally designed by Selye, or anything bad happening to you?
3. What is "extreme?"
4. What is "prolonged?"
5. What is "diminished physical health?"

For starters, just to keep it simple for you:
http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/stress/SR00001

[Excerpt]
When you encounter perceived threats — a large dog barks at you during your morning walk, for instance — your hypothalamus, a tiny region at the base of your brain, sets off an alarm system in your body. Through a combination of nerve and hormonal signals, this system prompts your adrenal glands, located atop your kidneys, to release a surge of hormones, including adrenaline and cortisol.

Adrenaline increases your heart rate, elevates your blood pressure and boosts energy supplies. Cortisol, the primary stress hormone, increases sugars (glucose) in the bloodstream, enhances your brain's use of glucose and increases the availability of substances that repair tissues.

Cortisol also curbs functions that would be nonessential or detrimental in a fight-or-flight situation. It alters immune system responses and suppresses the digestive system, the reproductive system and growth processes. This complex natural alarm system also communicates with regions of your brain that control mood, motivation and fear.

The long-term activation of the stress-response system — and the subsequent overexposure to cortisol and other stress hormones — can disrupt almost all your body's processes.


But I suppose you feel the people at the Mayo Clinic don't know what they're doing.

Anyway, that's my short-version answer to your question #1. All your other "questions" are just trying to confuse the issue, as is done by ALL people who are wrong and know it.

[Remember, folks, this is the gentleman genius who is dead-set convinced chiropractic doesn't work.]


So...just out of curiosity, anyone know how much more the answers to medical school exams go for these days?
.

[Brian]

If anyone doubts the negative effects of stress on the immune system, ask someone who gets cold sores(HSV type 1)

As a 45-year acquaintance of Mr. Herpe, I bring an unfortunate amount of familiarity with the subject to the table. Perhaps you have a different defintion of "immune system" than I, but as all my docs have explained it (and dovetails with my taking of graduate-level immunology waaay back in the day, remembering just enough to be dangerous to mysellf), a stress-related cold sore comes from the release of adrenaline. Which has zero to do with the immune system.

As long as I'm on the website:
http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/cold-s ... ION=causes

[Excerpt]
Certain strains of the herpes virus cause cold sores. Herpes simplex virus type 1 usually causes cold sores. Herpes simplex virus type 2 is usually responsible for genital herpes. However, either type of the virus can cause sores in the facial area or on the genitals.

Once you've had an episode of herpes infection, the virus lies dormant in the nerve cells in your skin and may emerge again as an active infection at or near the original site. You may experience an itch or heightened sensitivity at the site preceding each attack. Fever, menstruation, stress, fatigue and exposure to the sun may trigger a recurrence.

Adding this excerpt to the first paragraph of the excerpt in my previous post, the tie-in:
Sleep deprivation, for one example of a stressor, increases overall fatigue, which then increases cortisol levels which increases suppression of the immune system which (above) may trigger a recurrence [of herpes simplex 1 or 2].


I have no idea if any this is tied in to Paterno's death--simply put, the man was old!--or not (the orignal thread subject). I don't even presume to know if he was greatly affected by stress from the fallout of his actions. Maybe people have, for years now, been covering up increasing senility--which might explain his unconscionable lack of action reporting the young boy's rape; who knows?

But regarding stress and fatigue, the lesson is simple: take care of your health or pay the price.
.

[Brian]

As a 45-year acquaintance of Mr. Herpe, I bring an unfortunate amount of familiarity with the subject to the table.

Not sure if you mean Type 1 or 2 (not really wanting to know either way), but a bold and honest admission.

Salute.
.

[Pego]

[Remember, folks, this is the gentleman genius who is dead-set convinced chiropractic doesn't work.]

Yes, chiropractic is quackery without anatomical or physiological justification. Just as homeopathy, reflexology and numerous other "alternative medicine" practices.

So...just out of curiosity, anyone know how much more the answers to medical school exams go for these days?

They did not have those in my neck of woods 50 years ago. Well, when you preach nonsense, the only argument is a vicious ad hominem.

Where, pray tell, does it say anything in those excerpts that "stress damages immune system"? There is some interaction, of course, I never said there wasn't. It's the blanket statements like these, without a nominal understanding of the subject matter that irritate the living shit out of me. I am done with you.

[jazzcyclist]

Well, when you preach nonsense, the only argument is a vicious ad hominem.

Unfortunately, some folks on message boards aren't capable of "respectfully" disagreeing.

[bambam]

Brian - out of line. Back off. Pego is a good man and doctor who has probably forgotten more about medicine than you'll ever know.

[Brian]

Well, when you preach nonsense, the only argument is a vicious ad hominem.

Where, pray tell, does it say anything in those excerpts that "stress damages immune system"? There is some interaction, of course, I never said there wasn't. It's the blanket statements like these, without a nominal understanding of the subject matter that irritate the living shit out of me. I am done with you.

Always love when someone starts something with a passive-aggressive manner and then tries to play the victim when they get punched back directly in the face.

As for the statements on the website of the **MAYO CLINIC**--i.e., one of the top medical research facilities in the COUNTRY if not also in the WORLD--well, if your vision is so blurred from too much time spent looking through a tunnel, get someone to read it TO you.

Maybe your buddy bambam has some free time.
.

[Brian]

Brian - out of line. Back off. Pego is a good man and doctor who has probably forgotten more about medicine than you'll ever know.

Out of line?

Anyone who responds to a valid post with a flurry of superfluous questions buckshot-style--arguably a form of attack/harassment--designed to rip apart the concept put forth without saying anything of value to the contrary of that concept pretty much deserves whatever strong response they get in return, and don't cry about it later. Respect has to be earned.

Let's review.

My post, simple and truthful/valid:
Extreme and prolonged stress elevates cortisol levels. Such elevated levels cause damage to the immune system after a certain amount of time, resulting in diminished physical health.


His hachet-job response:
The source, please.
2. What is meant by "stress?" The standard definition as originally designed by Selye, or anything bad happening to you?
3. What is "extreme?"
4. What is "prolonged?"
5. What is "diminished physical health?"


Or is that kind of belittling, pissy comment considered "in line" to you? Is that a "respectful" way of disagreeing (with me)--?

His other post:
Physiology of grief, depression and such is totally different than the physiology of stress. Even, if there were similarities, to state categorically that " stress exacerbates almost any medical condition" is a misstatement. It may exacerbate some, it may help some, it will leave most of them unaffected.

He's talking about medical conditions as related to the question of stress hastening Paterno's demise. As I said, I don't know about that and don't pretend to know. But even in a healthy person, lengthy periods of stress can be harmful, so why is so much a stretch to believe the same wouldn't hold true for a less-than-healthy person...? I firmly believe any physician who believes prolonged stress that elevates cortisol levels is not bad for the human body should give up their practice.

But heck, in the interest of fairness and balance, let's play it Pego's way.

Hey, Doctor! Post some sources that back up your claim that prolonged stress ISN'T bad for the human body.

Oh, that's right, he's gone.


Say, anyone out there remember back when medical doctors used to swear on a stack of Bibles that steroids don't increase athletic performance? Point: just because you have a medical license doesn't mean you are always correct.
.

[Marlow]

But heck, in the interest of fairness and balance, let's play it Pego's way.
Hey, Doctor! Post some sources that back up your claim that prolonged stress ISN'T bad for the human body.
Oh, that's right, he's gone.
Say, anyone out there remember back when medical doctors used to swear on a stack of Bibles that steroids don't increase athletic performance? Point: just because you have a medical license doesn't mean you are always correct.
.

Brian, as someone on your side of this debate, let me point out that the burden of proof is on us to PROVE it, not others to disprove it. It's a classic 'burden of proof' logical fallacy to try and turn the tables. I believe there are examples we can cite (as I did above); unfortunately I don't have the MD degree, so I'm a bit outgunned here.

[bambam]

Say, anyone out there remember back when medical doctors used to swear on a stack of Bibles that steroids don't increase athletic performance? Point: just because you have a medical license doesn't mean you are always correct..

You're right about that last line. As to the steroids, I've asked this question on this board before so probably you can answer it as you seem to know the answer. Could you give me the references to the Level I studies (as in Levels of Evidence) that show steroids increase athletic performance? I want to read them.

[jazzcyclist]

Brian - out of line. Back off. Pego is a good man and doctor who has probably forgotten more about medicine than you'll ever know.

Out of line?

Anyone who responds to a valid post with a flurry of superfluous questions buckshot-style--arguably a form of attack/harassment--designed to rip apart the concept put forth without saying anything of value to the contrary of that concept pretty much deserves whatever strong response they get in return, and don't cry about it later. Respect has to be earned.

Let's review.

My post, simple and truthful/valid:
Extreme and prolonged stress elevates cortisol levels. Such elevated levels cause damage to the immune system after a certain amount of time, resulting in diminished physical health.


His hachet-job response:
The source, please.
2. What is meant by "stress?" The standard definition as originally designed by Selye, or anything bad happening to you?
3. What is "extreme?"
4. What is "prolonged?"
5. What is "diminished physical health?"


Or is that kind of belittling, pissy comment considered "in line" to you? Is that a "respectful" way of disagreeing (with me)--?

I never got the least bit impression that Pego was trying to belittle you when I read his post. To me it appeared to just be part of spirited debate. But I guess these things are in the eyes of the beholder and only Pego himself knows what he really meant.

[Pego]

But I guess these things are in the eyes of the beholder and only Pego himself knows what he really meant.

I asked simple questions to clarify meaningless generalities. In response I was accused of obtaining my diploma fraudulently, implying I faked it for 50 years. That's why I'll never speak to him again.

[Marlow]

Could you give me the references to the Level I studies (as in Levels of Evidence) that show steroids increase athletic performance? I want to read them.

As a completely innocent by-stander who wants to know . . . do or do not steroids 'stimulate' (may be wrong word) a faster recovery from very hard workouts? I was under the impression they are used in legitimate rehabbing of injured muscles. The word on the street (Huggy Bear told me! ) is that body-builders use steroids to gain mass that would be otherwise 'impossible' to gain.

If the above statements are true, anabolic steroids would indeed de facto 'increase athletic performance'. Just asking . . .

Or am I just missing some larger point in this discourse? I'm pretty sure the 70s and 80s abuse of AnSters led to performances that were anomalous.