Tim Tebow


Normally open July 4th only---the one day a year when partisan politics, religion, etc. are acceptable topics on this Board (within reason). The forum is now closed.

Re: Tim Tebow

Postby Pego » Thu Dec 01, 2011 10:48 am

Marlow wrote:
Pego wrote: I reject all beliefs not supported by evidence.

I'm gonna hafta call BS on that. You have 'faith' in many things unsupported by evidence. 95% of what you think you know is merely taking the word of others who have 'taught' it to you. You have zero first-hand knowledge of the structure of atoms, but you have faith in its existence, because a group of others (called physicists) tell you it's so. In the 1300s you would have believed that the earth is the center of the universe because almost all learned men said so and there certainly is LOTS of empirical evidence that we are!! You have some modicum of faith in the 'good' of much of your fellow man, despite all the first-hand evidence YOU have to the contrary. We all believe what we want to believe. Same for religious people. They say they have ALL the evidential support they need, their very existence.


Accumulated experience through human existence is not "faith". There are words for it. It is called "science", it is called "education", you may even call it "objective knowledge." It is taught in schools, you may have heard of them. I have not been in Australia, but I've seen evidence it is there, not just a word of Joe Shmoe, as you suggest I take at a face value. The same thing goes for the atoms. I've seen nuclear chain reactions, thank you very much. I have used equipment built on the physics of quantum mechanics.

Faith by definition has no supportive evidence and many theologians actually warn the faithful not to fall into the trap of requiring it. From Augustine, through Luther, Kierkegaard...

Now, tell me you are just trolling me and all is well :D .
Pego
 
Posts: 10196
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: beyond help

Re: Tim Tebow

Postby Helen S » Thu Dec 01, 2011 10:58 am

"To live a life with no hope in anything, no faith in anything is a good thing? When it gets bad and I'm surrounded I want to know I'm not alone."

I confess to running with the athiest crowd, and I have have hope that for a geologic while anyway the planet I live on will continue to support life. I have hope that for a human lifespan while I will wake up every day and enjoy some things I see or do. Was it Twain who said faith was believing in something even though you knew it was not ture?

And we are not alone- our planet is too crowded, and only gets worse.
Helen S
 
Posts: 785
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: in front of the computer

Re: Tim Tebow

Postby Conor Dary » Thu Dec 01, 2011 11:02 am

Marlow wrote:
Conor Dary wrote:Marlow. I think you should start a daytime talk show. You'd be perfect.

Can I use the Jerry Springer model and have a chair-throwing incident at the end of every show?


No. I was thinking more along an Oprah type show. You could have Pego and gh as your first guests.
Conor Dary
 
Posts: 6297
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: कनोर दारी in Ronald MacDonald's Home Town, and once a Duck always a Duck.

Re: Tim Tebow

Postby Marlow » Thu Dec 01, 2011 11:09 am

Pego wrote:Accumulated experience through human existence is not "faith". There are words for it. It is called "science", it is called "education", you may even call it "objective knowledge." It is taught in schools, you may have heard of them.


:( Alas, humans are fallible; scientists are humans; therefore scientists are fallible. Just as many of the things of "accumulated experience through human existence", "science", "education", and "objective knowledge" have been proven FALSE by ensuing generations (see my 1300s example, when people 'knew for a FACT' that the sun rotated around the Earth, which was the center of the universe). We are FAR from the end-times of knowledge. There are many things in today's SCIENCE that will be proven false in the future. There are many things in our lives that we take 'on faith'; that IS a fact. :wink:
Marlow
 
Posts: 21079
Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2008 5:00 pm
Location: Somewhere over the . . . hill

Re: Tim Tebow

Postby Conor Dary » Thu Dec 01, 2011 11:38 am

Marlow wrote:
Pego wrote:Accumulated experience through human existence is not "faith". There are words for it. It is called "science", it is called "education", you may even call it "objective knowledge." It is taught in schools, you may have heard of them.


:( Alas, humans are fallible; scientists are humans; therefore scientists are fallible. Just as many of the things of "accumulated experience through human existence", "science", "education", and "objective knowledge" have been proven FALSE by ensuing generations (see my 1300s example, when people 'knew for a FACT' that the sun rotated around the Earth, which was the center of the universe). We are FAR from the end-times of knowledge. There are many things in today's SCIENCE that will be proven false in the future. There are many things in our lives that we take 'on faith'; that IS a fact. :wink:


Boy, you sure have an odd vision of science, perfect for the daytime crowd. A vision where nothing that has gone on before matters. Today earth centered, tomorrow, sun centered, next week, who knows?

What is so remarkable that a thousand years ago, it was thought that the sun went around the earth? (Though I suspect even then some might have had some doubts, since the retrograde of the planets was known 2000 years ago.)
And now we know it is not. Sure science makes mistakes, but it is not a random process where theories hop back and forth.
Conor Dary
 
Posts: 6297
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: कनोर दारी in Ronald MacDonald's Home Town, and once a Duck always a Duck.

Re: Tim Tebow

Postby SQUACKEE » Thu Dec 01, 2011 11:45 am

Extraordinary claims should require extraordinary evidence. I have never been to New Zealand but I am willing to have the faith that it exist. I gotta see Big Foot before I believe he walks the Earth.

A personal God that created everthing and watches everything that every human does, all the while judging who gets to hang with him after we die, would qualify to my eyes as an extraordinary claim.

Believers would say that the idea that everything just came about from nothing is also an extraordinary claim. I am not making that claim, I dont know how we got here and I really hope there is a Loving God, I just cant make that leap of faith and I do envy people who can, it must bring a lot of peace.
SQUACKEE
 
Posts: 12885
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: Heaven-In front of stereo listenin to re-mastered Beatles

Re: Tim Tebow

Postby Pego » Thu Dec 01, 2011 11:53 am

Marlow wrote:There are many things in our lives that we take 'on faith'; that IS a fact.


You may do so, some of us don't.
Pego
 
Posts: 10196
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: beyond help

Re: Tim Tebow

Postby bad hammy » Thu Dec 01, 2011 12:17 pm

SQUACKEE wrote:I really hope there is a Loving God, I just cant make that leap of faith and I do envy people who can, it must bring a lot of peace.

Maybe not - could be a wrathful angry god. If she's responsible for everything it seems she's been a bit upset lately.
bad hammy
 
Posts: 10880
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am

Re: Tim Tebow

Postby Marlow » Thu Dec 01, 2011 12:20 pm

Conor Dary wrote:Sure science makes mistakes, but it is not a random process where theories hop back and forth.

ALL I'm talking about here is the hubris of man to think he knows what he thinks he knows. Some things REQUIRE faith right now. Do you know for a fact that a Supreme Being does NOT exist? Some people say they are atheists, but they can't KNOW there is no God. They are taking it 100% on FAITH that there's no God. If God exists, we would understand him the way an amoeba understands us.
Marlow
 
Posts: 21079
Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2008 5:00 pm
Location: Somewhere over the . . . hill

Re: Tim Tebow

Postby Daisy » Thu Dec 01, 2011 12:26 pm

Marlow wrote:If God exists, we would understand him the way an amoeba understands us.

I have no doubt that an amoeba is ahomo. But do they need faith to be that way?

Marlow wrote:ALL I'm talking about here is the hubris of man to think he knows what he thinks he knows

Good scientists know what they don't know. But science is available to all. Who is it that talks of science proving anything? Who is it that thinks of scientific knowledge as stationary.

bad hammy wrote:
SQUACKEE wrote:I really hope there is a Loving God, I just cant make that leap of faith and I do envy people who can, it must bring a lot of peace.

Maybe not - could be a wrathful angry god.

For every time I hear preachers talking about the love of God, I hear about human failings. This being pointed out all the time brings peace?
Last edited by Daisy on Thu Dec 01, 2011 12:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Daisy
 
Posts: 13153
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am

Re: Tim Tebow

Postby Marlow » Thu Dec 01, 2011 12:30 pm

Daisy wrote:Good scientists know what they don't know. But science is available to all.

True! But sometimes science gets it wrong, insists it's right, finds out it's not, apologizes by saying, 'but this proving ourselves wrong is what we scientists do', and start the cycle again.
BTW, I believe what Science tells me FAR more than what Faith tells me. I, too, am 'from Missouri'.
Marlow
 
Posts: 21079
Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2008 5:00 pm
Location: Somewhere over the . . . hill

Re: Tim Tebow

Postby Daisy » Thu Dec 01, 2011 12:33 pm

Marlow wrote:But sometimes science gets it wrong, insists it's right, finds out it's not, apologizes by saying, 'but this proving ourselves wrong is what we scientists do', and start the cycle again.

What are you thinking of?
Last edited by Daisy on Thu Dec 01, 2011 1:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Daisy
 
Posts: 13153
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am

Re: Tim Tebow

Postby Pego » Thu Dec 01, 2011 1:05 pm

Marlow wrote:Do you know for a fact that a Supreme Being does NOT exist?


No, I don't and I never said I do. I said that there is no evidence for the supreme being's existence. You can appreciate the difference obviously. That is one of the reasons I find the term atheist meaningless (look at one of my earlier posts).

As far as the science is concerned, Karl Popper observed that not does the science have to be reproducible, it also has to by falsifiable. That is one of the primary principles of science and the major difference from the metaphysics that requires neither.

Oh yes, there is something I take on pure faith. Mrs Pego's cooking. If she wanted to apply Borgia's culinary technique, it would be a piece of cake for her.
Pego
 
Posts: 10196
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: beyond help

Re: Tim Tebow

Postby Marlow » Thu Dec 01, 2011 1:24 pm

Pego wrote:No, I don't and I never said I do. I said that there is no evidence for the supreme being's existence. You can appreciate the difference obviously. That is one of the reasons I find the term atheist meaningless (look at one of my earlier posts).
As far as the science is concerned, Karl Popper observed that not does the science have to be reproducible, it also has to by falsifiable. That is one of the primary principles of science and the major difference from the metaphysics that requires neither.
Oh yes, there is something I take on pure faith. Mrs Pego's cooking. If she wanted to apply Borgia's culinary technique, it would be a piece of cake for her.

We are in consonance, sir!
Marlow
 
Posts: 21079
Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2008 5:00 pm
Location: Somewhere over the . . . hill

Re: Tim Tebow

Postby jazzcyclist » Thu Dec 01, 2011 2:59 pm

Curt Warner, another famous devout Christian NFL quarterback, weighs in on Tim Tebow.

Based on their style of play alone, Kurt Warner and Tim Tebow are miles apart.

Warner was the pocket passer with the big arm who ran the “Greatest Show on Turf” and averaged 33 pass attempts in 116 career starts. Tebow is the tight end playing quarterback, running the option and completing only 45.5 percent of his 20 pass attempts per game.

But when it comes to personality and individual values, Warner and Tebow are two peas in a pod.

Which is why Warner’s recent comments about Tebow’s outward religious expression are particularly interesting.

In an interview with the Arizona Republic, Warner — a devout Christian himself — suggested Tebow should tone things down a bit.

“You can't help but cheer for a guy like that," former NFL star Kurt Warner said. "But I'd tell him, 'Put down the boldness in regards to the words, and keep living the way you're living. Let your teammates do the talking for you. Let them cheer on your testimony.'
“I know what he's going through, and I know what he wants to accomplish, but I don't want anybody to become calloused toward Tim because they don't understand him, or are not fully aware of who he is. And you're starting to see that a little bit.”

“There’s almost a faith cliche, where (athletes) come out and say, ‘I want to thank my Lord and savior,’ Warner told the Republic. “As soon as you say that, the guard goes up, the walls go up, and I came to realize you have to be more strategic.
“The greatest impact you can have on people is never what you say, but how you live.... You set the standard with your actions. The words can come after.”

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/ear ... _blog.html
jazzcyclist
 
Posts: 10857
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am

Re: Tim Tebow

Postby lonewolf » Thu Dec 01, 2011 8:14 pm

I do not know if there is or is not a mystical supreme something orchestrating earth's trials and tribulations, nor does anyone else, but if people take comfort in having someone to praise or blame, it is fine with me.
I do not know if there will be a day of reckoning or reward. In the meantime, I am hedging my bets and living life content to be a fairly well behaved closet agnostic.
lonewolf
 
Posts: 8814
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: Indian Territory

Re: Tim Tebow

Postby Marlow » Fri Dec 02, 2011 3:54 am

lonewolf wrote:I am hedging my bets and living life content to be a fairly well behaved closet agnostic.

That is, of course, a most excellent philosophy! :D
Marlow
 
Posts: 21079
Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2008 5:00 pm
Location: Somewhere over the . . . hill

Re: Tim Tebow

Postby Pego » Fri Dec 02, 2011 4:21 am

Marlow wrote:
lonewolf wrote:I am hedging my bets and living life content to be a fairly well behaved closet agnostic.

That is, of course, a most excellent philosophy! :D


Pascal's wager modified :wink: .
Pego
 
Posts: 10196
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: beyond help

Previous

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests