Tim Tebow


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Re: Tim Tebow

Postby SQUACKEE » Wed Nov 30, 2011 5:46 am

I think I might kill this thread but I have to weigh in on this pray thingy. After what God allowed in the holocaust, it would appear that prayer is rather ineffective.
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Re: Tim Tebow

Postby Marlow » Wed Nov 30, 2011 5:54 am

SQUACKEE wrote:I think I might kill this thread but I have to weigh in on this pray thingy. After what God allowed in the holocaust, it would appear that prayer is rather ineffective.

Godwin's Law is indeed invoked, plus, I think you are unclear on the power and purpose of prayer as most people understand it. Huck Finn prayed as hard as he could for a fish hook and didn't get one. He thereby inferred that The Big Guy didn't exist.

A famous man (well, actually it was Jim Morrison of the Doors), said something I firmly believe:
"You cannot petition the Lord with prayer!"

You can, however, ask Him to give you the strength to do the right thing. :wink:
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Re: Tim Tebow

Postby Daisy » Wed Nov 30, 2011 6:21 am

Pego wrote:The Providence consistently favors the shooter roughly 70% of the time. Its dislike of goalies is suddenly reversed for hockey.

Your assumption here is that there is one God. But what if there are two, one for soccer and one for hockey? Maybe the Greeks and Romans were correct? In UK folklore there is god-like figure called Puck, could he be your hockey god?
Last edited by Daisy on Wed Nov 30, 2011 7:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Tim Tebow

Postby SQUACKEE » Wed Nov 30, 2011 6:50 am

Marlow wrote:Godwin's Law is indeed invoked, plus, I think you are unclear on the power and purpose of prayer as most people understand it.
You can, however, ask Him to give you the strength to do the right thing. :wink:


I dont think Huck Finn trumps the holocaust, do you. I am clear on what you are saying, prayers that asks for anything of real substance, like life and death of your child, are not answered. We would disagree as to why. :wink:
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Re: Tim Tebow

Postby Daisy » Wed Nov 30, 2011 7:35 am

SQUACKEE wrote:...prayers that ask for anything of real substance, like life and death of your child, are not answered.

Would this mean that no prayers are answered? I think many would disagree with that premise.
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Re: Tim Tebow

Postby SQUACKEE » Wed Nov 30, 2011 8:09 am

Daisy wrote:
SQUACKEE wrote:...prayers that ask for anything of real substance, like life and death of your child, are not answered.

Would this mean that no prayers are answered? I think many would disagree with that premise.


No one knows if prayers are answered, that's why it's called faith. What we do know is millions of people's prayers to be spared the gas chamber were not answered.
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Re: Tim Tebow

Postby Pego » Wed Nov 30, 2011 8:46 am

SQUACKEE wrote:
Daisy wrote:
SQUACKEE wrote:...prayers that ask for anything of real substance, like life and death of your child, are not answered.

Would this mean that no prayers are answered? I think many would disagree with that premise.


No one knows if prayers are answered, that's why it's called faith. What we do know is millions of people's prayers to be spared the gas chamber were not answered.


Some Orthodox rabbis claim that the Holocaust was a God's punishment for the European Jewry's secularization (abandoning kosher kitchen, lacking faith, marrying out of the faith...). Quite similar to Martin Luther's claim that the Turkish scourge was God's punishment for insufficient faith/secularization of Europe's Christians.

This thread has certainly taken a twist lately, lol.
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Re: Tim Tebow

Postby Marlow » Wed Nov 30, 2011 9:20 am

Daisy wrote:Would this mean that no prayers are answered? I think many would disagree with that premise.

I think most circumspect religious 'believers' know that you "cannot petition the Lord with prayer". His will is 'mysterious' to man, and therefore what you may be praying for is not in the "Master Plan". When I 'pray', and Lord knows that I do on occasion (word play!), I am essentially asking for the wisdom to figure out something (could be a death) that I am struggling with. He has answered my prayer EVERY time! :wink: I may not like the answer, but I do understand it is THE answer.
Atheists see this as a meeting of the minds (my consciousness, my subconsciousness and my unconscious mind that Jung introduced (but even he was a little fuzzy on it, calling it the Collective Unconscious of humanity - I believe we do share many commonalities with each other, but I, due to my DNA, have a slightly different one than everyone else)), which is fine - to each his own. I find that when I go on long (de facto painful) runs, the 'Lord' speaks to me very clearly and answers all my questions, whether I even know I was asking them or not. This could be the endorphines talking! Which brings me to one unanswered question - why does everyone else think endorphines feel good? Mine hurt! :twisted:
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Re: Tim Tebow

Postby Pego » Wed Nov 30, 2011 9:30 am

Marlow wrote:
Daisy wrote:Would this mean that no prayers are answered? I think many would disagree with that premise.

I think most circumspect religious 'believers' know that you "cannot petition the Lord with prayer". His will is 'mysterious' to man, and therefore what you may be praying for is not in the "Master Plan". When I 'pray', and Lord knows that I do on occasion (word play!), I am essentially asking for the wisdom to figure out something (could be a death) that I am struggling with. He has answered my prayer EVERY time! :wink: I may not like the answer, but I do understand it is THE answer.
Atheists see this as a meeting of the minds (my consciousness, my subconsciousness and my unconscious mind that Jung introduced (but even he was a little fuzzy on it, calling it the Collective Unconscious of humanity - I believe we do share many commonalities with each other, but I, due to my DNA, have a slightly different one than everyone else)), which is fine - to each his own. I find that when I go on long (de facto painful) runs, the 'Lord' speaks to me very clearly and answers all my questions, whether I even know I was asking them or not. This could be the endorphines talking! Which brings me to one unanswered question - why does everyone else think endorphines feel good? Mine hurt! :twisted:


I will leave your theology and Freudian/Jungian psychology alone, but your neuropharmacology I will respond to :wink: . Endorphins are opiates, they help you to tolerate the pain. What hurts is accumulation of metabolic byproducts in your tissues, those old creeking joints, those old inflexible ligaments...
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Re: Tim Tebow

Postby SQUACKEE » Wed Nov 30, 2011 9:42 am

Pego is , as usual, correct. You dont get a runner's high during the run, but once you stop and the oxygen dept is paid in full, you feel the pain killer without the pain and hence, a high! :D

When paired with beer, the effect is even mo better. :P
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Re: Tim Tebow

Postby 26mi235 » Wed Nov 30, 2011 10:06 am

SQUACKEE wrote:I think I might kill this thread but I have to weigh in on this pray thingy. After what God allowed in the holocaust, it would appear that prayer is rather ineffective.


I fit more in Daisy's camp, although I grew up as a 'preacher's kid. However, the comment made about prayer for some people 'giving them strength' could be seen as a factor in a number of the (all-to-few) escape stories in the holocaust. I just got back from the wedding of my wife's (second) cousin. I talked with a number of the family members that came over from Europe. There were various stories for strength, sometimes at least loosely linked to prayer, among those few survivors (in one case, the only one of ten siblings). Much of my wife's very immediate family were lucky, often in the assistance that they received; the rest not so much.
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Re: Tim Tebow

Postby SQUACKEE » Wed Nov 30, 2011 10:22 am

26mi235 wrote:
SQUACKEE wrote:I think I might kill this thread but I have to weigh in on this pray thingy. After what God allowed in the holocaust, it would appear that prayer is rather ineffective.


I fit more in Daisy's camp, although I grew up as a 'preacher's kid. However, the comment made about prayer for some people 'giving them strength' could be seen as a factor in a number of the (all-to-few) escape stories in the holocaust. I just got back from the wedding of my wife's (second) cousin. I talked with a number of the family members that came over from Europe. There were various stories for strength, sometimes at least loosely linked to prayer, among those few survivors (in one case, the only one of ten siblings). Much of my wife's very immediate family were lucky, often in the assistance that they received; the rest not so much.


Prayer is part of the human condition, there are no atheists on a jetliner that's going into a nose dive. Belief in prayer would certainly help people in times of trouble. I have prayed to a God I dont believe in.....just in case.
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Re: Tim Tebow

Postby Marlow » Wed Nov 30, 2011 10:29 am

Pego wrote:Endorphins are opiates, they help you to tolerate the pain. What hurts is accumulation of metabolic byproducts in your tissues, those old creeking joints, those old inflexible ligaments...

Then either my opiates are too weak or my met-byproducts are too strong, cuz this mythical creature called 'runners high' . . . there ain't no sucha thang, that I'm aware of. The only thing that feels good to me in exercise is its cessation!

Q - Why are banging your head against the wall?

A - Cuz it feels so good when I stop.
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Re: Tim Tebow

Postby SQUACKEE » Wed Nov 30, 2011 11:02 am

Marlow wrote:Q - Why are banging your head against the wall?



At the risk of reducing you to a cliche, you might be immune to the pleasure of endorphins because of the fact that you are a sugar eating, easy going teetoler who is comfortable in his own skin and doesnt suffer from mucho pathos and self-hatred.

When a stress puppet, with depression and self hatred gets his fix of endorphins, all is right with the world. :D
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Re: Tim Tebow

Postby Avante » Wed Nov 30, 2011 12:15 pm

"Tim Tebow"

he's big and strong
can run the ball
but only throw long

when they win
there he is
on a knee
thanking his God
for that victory

he's a throw back
to another time in history
back before instant replay
and HD TV

can he last
endure and survive
hard to bet against him
knowing God is on his side


:)
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Re: Tim Tebow

Postby Marlow » Wed Nov 30, 2011 12:22 pm

SQUACKEE wrote:At the risk of reducing you to a cliche, you might be immune to the pleasure of endorphins because of the fact that you are a sugar eating, easy going teetoler who is comfortable in his own skin and doesnt suffer from mucho pathos and self-hatred.

Risk away!! :D
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Re: Tim Tebow

Postby jhc68 » Wed Nov 30, 2011 2:06 pm

Avante says:
It's more about God/Lord/Jesus giving them the strength/ability to do what they do. As opposed to..."He sure likes the Broncos".


Me, I can see praying to the Almighty to give people the strength/ability to deal with tragedies or illness or grief... but praying for the leg swing to convert of field goal? That's outside my personal evaluation of appropriate prayer.
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Re: Tim Tebow

Postby Daisy » Wed Nov 30, 2011 2:54 pm

Marlow wrote:Atheists see this as a meeting of the minds (my consciousness, my subconsciousness and my unconscious mind that Jung introduced)

Or atheists just don't over think it too much. ;)

As George Carlin liked to point out, most people are only atheists to take advantage of the non-prophet status.
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Re: Tim Tebow

Postby Avante » Wed Nov 30, 2011 3:04 pm

jhc68 wrote:
Avante says:
It's more about God/Lord/Jesus giving them the strength/ability to do what they do. As opposed to..."He sure likes the Broncos".


Me, I can see praying to the Almighty to give people the strength/ability to deal with tragedies or illness or grief... but praying for the leg swing to convert of field goal? That's outside my personal evaluation of appropriate prayer.


There are different degrees of prayer.
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Re: Tim Tebow

Postby odelltrclan » Wed Nov 30, 2011 4:58 pm

SQUACKEE wrote:
Daisy wrote:
SQUACKEE wrote:...prayers that ask for anything of real substance, like life and death of your child, are not answered.

Would this mean that no prayers are answered? I think many would disagree with that premise.


No one knows if prayers are answered, that's why it's called faith. What we do know is millions of people's prayers to be spared the gas chamber were not answered.


Oh please, MANY people can and do attest to answered prayers, myself included. Not just one but many. It is only that often nonbelievers or those who simply are lacking in faith are in denial because it is not happening to them and hence judge that it happens to no one. I really feel sorry for those who feel like you do.
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Re: Tim Tebow

Postby Marlow » Wed Nov 30, 2011 5:53 pm

odelltrclan wrote:Oh please, MANY people can and do attest to answered prayers, myself included. Not just one but many.

Some would suggest you look at all the unanswered prayers and compare the ratio of answered to unanswered and see if that equals the likelihood of the events happening by 'chance' (or, more accurately, the way the events in the universe had already determined them to turn out).
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Re: Tim Tebow

Postby odelltrclan » Wed Nov 30, 2011 7:11 pm

Marlow wrote:
odelltrclan wrote:Oh please, MANY people can and do attest to answered prayers, myself included. Not just one but many.

Some would suggest you look at all the unanswered prayers and compare the ratio of answered to unanswered and see if that equals the likelihood of the events happening by 'chance' (or, more accurately, the way the events in the universe had already determined them to turn out).


Perhaps, yet what would you expect from someone who themselves never experienced such things? Exactly what they do. They make attempts to rationalize and explain away or trivialize the experiences. Too bad for them. I wish I could elaborate more on my own experiences but this is not the right time or place but I can say there was NO "chance" or maybes involved and I sincerely hope some of the skeptics here can someday share similar circumstances and leave it at that. back to Tebow? Go Broncos!
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Re: Tim Tebow

Postby jhc68 » Wed Nov 30, 2011 7:31 pm

It's great to see that Avante can wax poetic!
Still, I ain't buying the idea that God favors one player over another on the football field.
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Re: Tim Tebow

Postby Daisy » Wed Nov 30, 2011 7:37 pm

odelltrclan wrote:They make attempts to rationalize and explain away or trivialize the experiences. Too bad for them.

I can address this from an atheists perspective.

The truth is I rarely try to rationalise an experience, it is what it is. Or as Marlow alludes to, we are stuck with the genetic roll of the dice, or the natural disaster roll of the dice.

I never really think of things from the perspective of a God, and thus to trivialise prayer, or other peoples experiences with prayer, is not really on my mind either.

As a biologist I am in awe of all life, even bacteria; it makes every second we have precious.

As to morals, I'd like to think I contribute some good, and certainly borrow from all religions. Turn the other check, love they neighbor, do unto others as you wish done unto you. These are powerful lessons that are the foundation of a civil society. But I am also at liberty to ignore other lessons.
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Re: Tim Tebow

Postby mojo » Wed Nov 30, 2011 8:58 pm

Daisy wrote:
odelltrclan wrote:They make attempts to rationalize and explain away or trivialize the experiences. Too bad for them.

I can address this from an atheists perspective.

The truth is I rarely try to rationalise an experience, it is what it is. Or as Marlow alludes to, we are stuck with the genetic roll of the dice, or the natural disaster roll of the dice.

I never really think of things from the perspective of a God, and thus to trivialise prayer, or other peoples experiences with prayer, is not really on my mind either.

As a biologist I am in awe of all life, even bacteria; it makes every second we have precious.

As to morals, I'd like to think I contribute some good, and certainly borrow from all religions. Turn the other check, love they neighbor, do unto others as you wish done unto you. These are powerful lessons that are the foundation of a civil society. But I am also at liberty to ignore other lessons.



Amen Daisy! or rather beautifully said. :wink: I am not a biologist but I have given birth twice. I too am in awe of life without crediting it to aysupreme being who will give me two tickets to Paris if I just ask often and sincerely enough.
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Re: Tim Tebow

Postby Avante » Thu Dec 01, 2011 12:48 am

True story...

Many moons (many moons ago) ago I lived in some apartments with a couple buddies. Across the street were some big medal trash cans, our driveway was rocks. Sometimes while drinking beer and goofing off we'd throw rocks across the street trying to make it inside that one can that never had a lid. While we hit the can (all the cans :roll: ) numerous times we never made it inside.

Anyway...

Some time later my grandmother (86) was in the hospital and it wasn't looking good, I loved her very much. So I get this call from my dad..."you better come down here..." ..as I headed out the door to my car..."please God....."....just before getting in the car...I'm thinking.."did He hear me?"...I need a sign, yep, I picked up a rock and......(by street light)....nailed it, right inside that can. She lived to be 94.
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Re: Tim Tebow

Postby SQUACKEE » Thu Dec 01, 2011 4:06 am

I'm not anti-faith and I am envious of people who have it. But everyone who believes in something, doesn't believe in something else. In other word, to you believing Christians who use prayer, a practicing Hindu, who enjoys 100's of Gods, he would call you a non-believer, i.e. Atheist.

I'm open to everything and believe what makes sense to me.

I worship Gerry Lindgren and Jimi Hendrix. :D
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Re: Tim Tebow

Postby Pego » Thu Dec 01, 2011 5:44 am

Daisy wrote:The truth is I rarely try to rationalise an experience, it is what it is.


I'll second this and take it a step further. Even the word "atheist" has no meaning to me, as I reject all beliefs not supported by evidence. Since I don't believe there is an Abominable Snow Man, should I declare myself an "ayeti". Silly, ain't it?
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Re: Tim Tebow

Postby Daisy » Thu Dec 01, 2011 6:08 am

Pego wrote:Since I don't believe there is an Abominable Snow Man, should I declare myself an "ayeti". Silly, ain't it?

You're not a yeti! ?

But seconded, most atheists don't belong to a group of like minded atheists. They just interact with those around them.
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Re: Tim Tebow

Postby Avante » Thu Dec 01, 2011 6:23 am

SQUACKEE wrote:I'm not anti-faith and I am envious of people who have it. But everyone who believes in something, doesn't believe in something else. In other word, to you believing Christians who use prayer, a practicing Hindu, who enjoys 100's of Gods, he would call you a non-believer, i.e. Atheist.

I'm open to everything and believe what makes sense to me.

I worship Gerry Lindgren and Jimi Hendrix. :D


First off nobody cares what others think or call you. You do what's right for you. If they don't get it...oh well.

Personally I see no reason in the world to limit things, to..."there is no God because you can't prove it"...is beyond silly. To live a life with no hope in anything, no faith in anything is a good thing? When it gets bad and I'm surrounded I want to know I'm not alone. To play..."oh no you can't fool me"....why play that? You gain what by..."hey if you can't see Him"....? Like I said however to each his own.
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Re: Tim Tebow

Postby Daisy » Thu Dec 01, 2011 6:32 am

Avante wrote:Like I said however to each his own.

I'd agree with that.

As to hope. I guess I don't need a God to have it. I don't feel I'm missing out.
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Re: Tim Tebow

Postby Pego » Thu Dec 01, 2011 6:58 am

Avante wrote:To live a life with no hope in anything, no faith in anything is a good thing?


There is absolutely zero support for a claim that any religious/irreligious group as a whole would have more or less fulfilling lives. It is one of many baseless statements of religionists. Each group has different convictions and aspirations. Each group has happy and suicidal individuals, successful ones and failures, decent people and murderers.
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Re: Tim Tebow

Postby Marlow » Thu Dec 01, 2011 7:07 am

Daisy wrote:
Avante wrote:Like I said however to each his own.

I'd agree with that.
As to hope. I guess I don't need a God to have it. I don't feel I'm missing out.

My Sunday School teacher (I was 12) said that if you believe in God, He does exist.If you don't, he doesn't. That made sense at the time and has made even more sense to me in the 48 intervening years. It set me free to believe what I felt was right. The God I worship is absolutely unrecognizable to anyone else on the planet and is certainly not coincident with the God of any organized religion that I have ever heard of, but 'He' makes perfect sense to me. I pray to him, he answers, and my worship of him helps guide me to be the best person I can (not that I am as 'good' as I wish I were, or even as good as many other people I know of theist or atheistic beliefs).
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Re: Tim Tebow

Postby tandfman » Thu Dec 01, 2011 8:35 am

What Tim Tebow Can't Do

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... 38504.html

>> He cannot fly. He cannot see through walls. He cannot talk to the animals, not even cats. He's never picked up an automobile and tossed it across the road. He's failed to publish poetry in Russian. He can't explain Ryan Reynolds.

These are just a few of the many things Tim Tebow can't do.. . . .<<
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Re: Tim Tebow

Postby Marlow » Thu Dec 01, 2011 8:56 am

tandfman wrote:These are just a few of the many things Tim Tebow can't do.. . . .<<

Time to quote Ricky Nelson in Garden Party . . .

"ya can't please everyone
So ya got to please yourself"

All his nay-sayers are doing is fueling his fire. There IS a place in pro football for him, and right now it's QB. I've always thought he'd be an All-Pro tight end. He can run routes and catch. He can block. He can certainly run with the ball.
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Re: Tim Tebow

Postby 26mi235 » Thu Dec 01, 2011 9:03 am

Pego wrote:
Daisy wrote:The truth is I rarely try to rationalise an experience, it is what it is.


I'll second this and take it a step further. Even the word "atheist" has no meaning to me, as I reject all beliefs not supported by evidence. Since I don't believe there is an Abominable Snow Man, should I declare myself an "ayeti". Silly, ain't it?


Gosh, this must be a Wisconsin track and field thing, as I will 'third' this.
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Re: Tim Tebow

Postby Marlow » Thu Dec 01, 2011 9:33 am

Pego wrote: I reject all beliefs not supported by evidence.

I'm gonna hafta call BS on that. You have 'faith' in many things unsupported by evidence. 95% of what you think you know is merely taking the word of others who have 'taught' it to you. You have zero first-hand knowledge of the structure of atoms, but you have faith in its existence, because a group of others (called physicists) tell you it's so. In the 1300s you would have believed that the earth is the center of the universe because almost all learned men said so and there certainly is LOTS of empirical evidence that we are!! You have some modicum of faith in the 'good' of much of your fellow man, despite all the first-hand evidence YOU have to the contrary. We all believe what we want to believe. Same for religious people. They say they have ALL the evidential support they need, their very existence.
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Re: Tim Tebow

Postby Daisy » Thu Dec 01, 2011 9:43 am

Marlow wrote:You have zero first-hand knowledge of the structure of atoms, but you have faith in its existence, because a group of others (called physicists) tell you it's so.

You don't need faith to read papers full of data by scientists with first hand knowledge.
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Re: Tim Tebow

Postby Conor Dary » Thu Dec 01, 2011 10:25 am

Marlow wrote:
Pego wrote: I reject all beliefs not supported by evidence.

I'm gonna hafta call BS on that. You have 'faith' in many things unsupported by evidence. 95% of what you think you know is merely taking the word of others who have 'taught' it to you. You have zero first-hand knowledge of the structure of atoms, but you have faith in its existence, because a group of others (called physicists) tell you it's so. In the 1300s you would have believed that the earth is the center of the universe because almost all learned men said so and there certainly is LOTS of empirical evidence that we are!! You have some modicum of faith in the 'good' of much of your fellow man, despite all the first-hand evidence YOU have to the contrary. We all believe what we want to believe. Same for religious people. They say they have ALL the evidential support they need, their very existence.


Marlow. I think you should start a daytime talk show. You'd be perfect.
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Re: Tim Tebow

Postby Marlow » Thu Dec 01, 2011 10:36 am

Conor Dary wrote:Marlow. I think you should start a daytime talk show. You'd be perfect.

Can I use the Jerry Springer model and have a chair-throwing incident at the end of every show?
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