NCAA XC Dates Changing?

[gh]

I haven't seen it officially anywhere yet, but apparently as of 2013 the Regionals will move from Saturday to Friday, and then the next week the Nationals will move from Monday back to Saturday.

And if they can effect it for 2012, they'll do it as early as then.

[26mi235]

I had heard that they were looking at moving the NCAA to the weekend (some even prefer Saturday versus Sunday (the BYUs of the world?). I think that they want as much time between Regionals and Nationals, hence the movement of the Regionals to Friday is a natural.

This is not too surprising in that apparently the teams liked having the big adidas Invite on Friday, although this is '(very) small sample properties' from having talked to a couple of teams. The fans, as evidenced by comments on LetsRun, do not like it because there were lots of complaints that the adidas Invite was a Friday afternoon and thus hard to go to.

Of course, Regionals are 'very soon' and cannot be changed for 2011

[tfgeek60]

I just got home from the NE regionals. I am glad the change in schedule did not take place this year as Friday would be tough to make.
It was very windy. Syracuse had a great day winning on both the Men and Women's races. The individual winners looked dominant, Leonard Korir and Abbey D'Agostino (even more so).
The Providence women were the big disappointment finishing 5th.

[guru]

West Region - Oregon men finish 6th, thumped by, among others, Cal Poly

[Conor Dary]

Regionals on Friday is a dumb idea. One day won't make that much difference. The teams, such as OSU who have a chance at nationals take it fairly easy to qualify, and the teams who really have to peak at regionals are not that bothered how they place at nationals.

[26mi235]

I just got home from the NE regionals. I am glad the change in schedule did not take place this year as Friday would be tough to make.
It was very windy. Syracuse had a great day winning on both the Men and Women's races. The individual winners looked dominant, Leonard Korir and Abbey D'Agostino (even more so).
The Providence women were the big disappointment finishing 5th.

5th for Providence is about where they might finish at NCAAs, not in a Region. Their best runner, Sisson, did not run [she got strep throat and did not even make the trip]; if she had they would have won the Region. Greany, a top-10 type of runner was 58th in her regional. Ironically, Wisconsin did get in despite there other good runner from last year not running well this year.

Oregon's men did not get in and neither did long-time power Arkansas. If you want to see the teams that made it, go to FloTrack.

[Conor Dary]

At large qualifiers for men. Go Gophers! (via flotrack)

At-Large Teams: (# of wins)
Princeton (11)
Tulsa (0 - pushed)
Minnesota (6)
Northern Arizona (6)
Michigan (6)
Columbia (5)
Providence (8)
Notre Dame (3)
Ohio State (5)
Cal Poly (0 - pushed)
Washington State (4)
New Mexico (4)
Georgia (4)

[dl]

I believe the reasoning behind moving Nationals to Saturday is so that it will get more media coverage and fan support. But the former hardly seems likely, given that's the big rivalry day for college football.

Moving regionals to Friday is to give at least 8 days in between, instead of just 7 if they were also contested on a Saturday.

[dj]

I believe the reasoning behind moving Nationals to Saturday is so that it will get more media coverage and fan support.

But the media coverage was lonnnnng ago given as the reason for running on Monday.

[gh]

Running on Monday costs one more day out of class than on Saturday?

[KevinM]

Running on Monday costs one more day out of class than on Saturday?

But running regionals on Friday negates that, and it affects way more kids.

[gh]

that's true enough, but perhaps they wanted to mitigate some of the effect of Regionals change?

[26mi235]

Running on Monday costs one more day out of class than on Saturday?

But running regionals on Friday negates that, and it affects way more kids.

The schools that I got feedback from strongly preferred having the Wisconsin adidas Invite on Friday (compared to Saturday, even more strongly than having it on Sunday, the day of the PreNats alternative race this mid-October). This probably means that a lot of teams want it on Friday.

When you look at, say, college hoops, where they have easily a dozen games on weekdays, I think a class day is not that major of an issue, and Friday is a day with relatively few classes, as many afternoon classes are made T-TH or MW (rather than MWF). Cross country teams compete so seldom that this probably is not an issue at all relative to almost all other sports.

[Halfmiler2]

Regionals on Friday is a dumb idea. One day won't make that much difference. The teams, such as OSU who have a chance at nationals take it fairly easy to qualify, and the teams who really have to peak at regionals are not that bothered how they place at nationals.

I have to agree with Conor on this one.

[dj]

Running on Monday costs one more day out of class than on Saturday?

No, it's either a push or you gain a day by running on Monday.

Currently: fly in Saturday, preview Sunday, compete Monday and fly out Monday afternoon. (one day of classes lost)
Proposed: fly in Thursday, preview Friday, compete Saturday and fly out Saturday afternoon/night (or Sunday). (one, perhaps two, days of classes lost)

[26mi235]

If you think that you can get to class on Tuesday after flying home after a Monday race you must be running on the East Coast or much earlier than they run these races.

How many days of class do XC runners miss during a year? How many do most other sport teams miss? How motivated are XC runners at getting class work done compared to most other sports teams. I submit that it is a non-issue and that the teams are generally quite amenable to racing Fridays.

[lonewolf]

I have often wondered, do baseball players even to to class spring semester?

[KevinM]

If you think that you can get to class on Tuesday after flying home after a Monday race you must be running on the East Coast or much earlier than they run these races.

Many teams fly out of Indy on Monday evening.

How many days of class do XC runners miss during a year? How many do most other sport teams miss? How motivated are XC runners at getting class work done compared to most other sports teams. I submit that it is a non-issue and that the teams are generally quite amenable to racing Fridays.

I don't think anyone is saying it's an issue, only that the member schools often make it an issue or justification for things (see no football tourney).

[26mi235]

If you think that you can get to class on Tuesday after flying home after a Monday race you must be running on the East Coast or much earlier than they run these races.

Many teams fly out of Indy on Monday evening.

How many days of class do XC runners miss during a year? How many do most other sport teams miss? How motivated are XC runners at getting class work done compared to most other sports teams. I submit that it is a non-issue and that the teams are generally quite amenable to racing Fridays.

I don't think anyone is saying it's an issue, only that the member schools often make it an issue or justification for things (see no football tourney).

Show me where member schools are making it an issue for XC? I only have a few anecdotes from coaches saying they prefer even a big Invite on Friday, much less a Regional that gains from having more rest before NCAAs.

If the meet is in the west, you are not going to have a lot of teams flying out and making connections for the evening (except for direct flights, I suppose, but those would not be relevant for, say, Oregon where the meet next week was supposed to be held).

[maggot]

If you think that you can get to class on Tuesday after flying home after a Monday race you must be running on the East Coast or much earlier than they run these races.

How many days of class do XC runners miss during a year? How many do most other sport teams miss? How motivated are XC runners at getting class work done compared to most other sports teams. I submit that it is a non-issue and that the teams are generally quite amenable to racing Fridays.

Most XC runners I have had in class are excellent students and will get the work done no matter what. It is the athletes from the so-called major sports who often are not so motivated.

[Mighty Favog]

Under the current scheduling format, I suspect very few athletes return to class the next day, which on most campuses is the last day before Thanksgiving break. I figure a lot of them don't even leave from Terre Haute with the team, but rather go straight home with whatever family members came to see them run.

In any case, if you're worried about D-I athletes missing class, then you're living in the past. The real question for D-I is what's best for getting attention for your sport, getting it on TV, and selling tickets. Those ever-more-pricey scholarships aren't given for nothing.

[Conor Dary]

Under the current scheduling format, I suspect very few athletes return to class the next day, which on most campuses is the last day before Thanksgiving break. I figure a lot of them don't even leave from Terre Haute with the team, but rather go straight home with whatever family members came to see them run.

In any case, if you're worried about D-I athletes missing class, then you're living in the past. The real question for D-I is what's best for getting attention for your sport, getting it on TV, and selling tickets. Those ever-more-pricey scholarships aren't given for nothing.

Say what? TV, tickets? In cross country?

[dl]

I believe the reasoning behind moving Nationals to Saturday is so that it will get more media coverage and fan support.

But the media coverage was lonnnnng ago given as the reason for running on Monday.

I'm not saying it's good reasoning! That's just what I was told by some coaches who have been following the issue (and who feel the move is not a good idea).

To paraphrase one coach, "It makes no sense to move the race in order to showcase it better until we have something to showcase." In other words, until the meet is held on a course of 2K loops or shorter, where fans can watch the majority of the race while standing in one spot, and receive many team score updates (every 1K or so), there's no point in worrying about media coverage/exposure/marketing, etc.

[26mi235]

A number of the new, top courses have some of what you say is needed because they loop around where multiple views are possible for spectators.

Indiana State course used for most of the NCAAs in the last almost decade and the new Wisconsin course which hosted the Wisconsin adidas Invitational that had 39 men's teams and 44 women's teams this year (one race each).

Trying to have a course where you get multiple views creates significant problems. If you go the route used by Nike (and the U. Oregon NCAA bid that was ruled unacceptable by NCAA due to being held in a venue that hosts gambling) where you have the race in a stadium you have some trouble getting in a 10k -- the high school race is only 5k and there is less spread in the runners. You also generally lose the feel of cross country.

Also, the ability to view the race is not really relevant to the 'popularity' on a national level because only a tiny fraction will be at the course. It is video coverage that is important. ISU uses carts was well as some video towers while Wisconsin has some mobile video towers but such towers are dangerous in the wind (see Notre Dame football tragedy).

http://www.gosycamores.com/fls/15200//statistics/08-xc/All%20Course%20Maps.pdf?DB_OEM_ID=15200&KEY=&SPID=7268&SPSID=70946

Wisconsin course:
http://www.uwbadgers.com/facilities/zimmer.html

[Mighty Favog]

U of Toledo's course last Saturday required only a small amount of movement around the course, had portable bleachers lining both sides of the last 100y, and had mats every 2k and a videoboard with live scoring updates. Nearby buildings, such as a campus parking garage, make high-up video much safer. And best of all, it's only about 2 miles from where I'm sitting right now.

Personally, I don't see any reason to wait around to promote what you have, thinking that at some point in the future it will be an easier sell. I think college cross country is already a compelling product, especially when you have the technology for live scoring. If I didn't think it was a compelling product, I wouldn't be on this forum and I wouldn't go to meets.

Way back when, the interest you needed to drum up for an event was from newspaper reporters covering the meet. It made perfect sense to run it on a Monday. Now, newspapers don't matter. TV matters, and live TV at that. But is a Saturday afternoon in November a good time to try to put cross country on TV?

Are there more choices than Saturday and Monday? If you're going to make a change to something, I don't think you should tinker around the edges. Maybe the day before Thanksgiving is a good idea -- and maybe it isn't. The point is that nothing should be off the table.

[26mi235]

The Toledo course and race presentation got pretty good marks, although I have not yet talked directly with anyone who was there.

[dl]

A number of the new, top courses have some of what you say is needed because they loop around where multiple views are possible for spectators.

Indiana State course used for most of the NCAAs in the last almost decade and the new Wisconsin course which hosted the Wisconsin adidas Invitational that had 39 men's teams and 44 women's teams this year (one race each).

Trying to have a course where you get multiple views creates significant problems. If you go the route used by Nike (and the U. Oregon NCAA bid that was ruled unacceptable by NCAA due to being held in a venue that hosts gambling) where you have the race in a stadium you have some trouble getting in a 10k -- the high school race is only 5k and there is less spread in the runners. You also generally lose the feel of cross country.

Also, the ability to view the race is not really relevant to the 'popularity' on a national level because only a tiny fraction will be at the course. It is video coverage that is important. ISU uses carts was well as some video towers while Wisconsin has some mobile video towers but such towers are dangerous in the wind (see Notre Dame football tragedy).

http://www.gosycamores.com/fls/15200//statistics/08-xc/All%20Course%20Maps.pdf?DB_OEM_ID=15200&KEY=&SPID=7268&SPSID=70946

Wisconsin course:
http://www.uwbadgers.com/facilities/zimmer.html

I would strongly disagree that Indiana State is a good course for spectators. One would have to run around like mad (part of the fun at some meets, I know) to see the leaders run by a handful of times. The last 2 times I've been there, I've watched the races on the big video screen by the finish.

[gh]

U of Toledo's course last Saturday required only a small amount of movement around the course, had portable bleachers lining both sides of the last 100y, and had mats every 2k and a videoboard with live scoring updates. Nearby buildings, such as a campus parking garage, make high-up video much safer. And best of all, it's only about 2 miles from where I'm sitting right now. ......

When I was younger and more prone to things like t hat, I always thought the best part of a XC race was the requirement to run around; figuring where to go next and beat the rest of the crowd for the best viewing.

[Mighty Favog]

Indiana State is a good course to do any (or all) of three things:

1) Run around to watch. As Juha (The Cruel) Vatainen said, "stadiums are for spectators. We have nature and that is much better".

2) Watch on the video board. What other cross country meet has a video board?

3) Stand at the top of the hill near the start/finish area and watch the race through binoculars.

To be perfectly honest, the only reasons I'd prefer the NCAA to be in Toledo are because I live here and our river doesn't stink.

[Conor Dary]

U of Toledo's course last Saturday required only a small amount of movement around the course, had portable bleachers lining both sides of the last 100y, and had mats every 2k and a videoboard with live scoring updates. Nearby buildings, such as a campus parking garage, make high-up video much safer. And best of all, it's only about 2 miles from where I'm sitting right now. ......

When I was younger and more prone to things like t hat, I always thought the best part of a XC race was the requirement to run around; figuring where to go next and beat the rest of the crowd for the best viewing.

I agree it is great fun. I am not quite as fast, and the ISU course is a challenge, but not too bad. But if you want to see someone really zip around a course it is Plasencia. That guy is still fit and fast.

[gh]

I don't think zip "around" a course was ever in my vocabulary. Now if we're talking "across" the course

[26mi235]

Courses that are good for zipping around in an Invite or even the league meet might not be good for zipping around during NCAAs. Indiana State controls things with long sections of green chainlink fencing. I like XC to be natural and the fencing does not quite fit, although you have to make compromises.

It will be interesting to see how the Wisconsin course fares next November when they hold the Regionals there with the multiple "S"s where runners can be seen multiple times but in a big race people are tempted to cross the course and that can create havoc. In designing a course for viewing little subtleties can matter. For instance trying to make it so the sections that people will view one loop from and then go to the next (without crossing the course) have 'concave' curves so that you can see the course without stepping out and block the view of others and stepping out into the shortest route around the course. Also, getting the course so that not only will it drain well for the running lane but also for the primary paths cutting across so that you can get places without being stuck in the mire. Mire on shoes and pants gets cold in later November.

[gh]

pants?! what is this word pants?! At a XC race?!

[26mi235]

pants?! what is this word pants?! At a XC race?!

On the spectators. Us old guys cannot stand/jogging (burning 300cal/hour) out in weather that is warm enough (just barely) for college runners putting out 1200 calories/hour.

[Conor Dary]

That and looking an idiot. It is late November.