Novianv2 wrote:Ok, I don't want to get into a war of words but 7-sided, have your ever hurdled? I ask this b/c if you have, you'd have to ask yourself if grabbing another hurdler mid-race during a WC final while you are running essentially 13 flat is actually on the top of your mind. Note the word "intentionally".
Certainly, you're not implying that I would have had to have once run hurdles to see that Robles obviously impeded Liu? He grabbed him, it was intentional and whether he was running 13 seconds or 14 seconds he knew what he was doing...slowing Liu.
mojo wrote:Yes Robles did affect Liu but not intentionally or blatantly.
People making these decisons (and I have a feeling a friend of ours was in on this as she is there as a track referee) have not hurdled.
You're wrong! He did it on purpose. And, again, having hurdled or not having hurdled has little to do with whether it's apparent - to you. Bill Bellicheck never played football.
Novianv2 and Mojo, it is my understanding of the rule that it doesn't make difference whether the impedement was intentional or not, and shouldn't be less referees get in the business reading minds.
7-sided, FYI, Bill Belichick played both high school and college football. Furthermore, a person who has hurdled at any level would be in a much better position to recognize normal hurdling movement than a person who has never hurdled. However, intent is irrelevant IMO, so I agree with you on the larger point, that the decision to DQ Robles was the proper one, since he had no business with his feet in Xiang's lane and he clearly did impede him. It may be normal to have your hands in the adjacent lanes in a hurdles race, but the feet is a different matter.
7-sided, I have no idea why you're so sure this was intentional. And I haven't seen any video or photo showing obvious 'grabbing'. Having said that, I have to admit that given the images posted the decision was correct. The contact was entirely in Liu's lane. Never the less, Perry's infraction in 2007 was far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far worse.
7-sided wrote:Hurdlers don't want to touch but when the only way you can slow the other person is to jostle, bump grab them then you just might do it...and many hurdlers have - on purpose.
Has any hurdler ever expressed this to you or have you ever done it yourself?
Giant Panda wrote:Does anybody have a working link to the slow motion aerial footage of the whole incident?
Look on letsrun; very clear and multiple replays from head on. Robles had to be disqualified and it may well have been intentional (although that doesn't matter). From his immediate reaction after the finish it looks like Robles knew exactly what he'd done.
7-sided wrote:Hurdlers don't want to touch but when the only way you can slow the other person is to jostle, bump grab them then you just might do it...and many hurdlers have - on purpose.
Has any hurdler ever expressed this to you or have you ever done it yourself?
As I mentioned on the Current Events -Oliver's form post. It is quite possible that Robles moved to the right of the lane to avoid being hit by Oliver in the lane to his left. Oliver is well known to hug the right side of his lane. I don't think Robles wanted to get smacked by Oliver.
Q.) are the lanes too narrow for the size (width) of these athletes? Hurdlers are generaly of the larger body-type.
7-sided wrote:Hurdlers don't want to touch but when the only way you can slow the other person is to jostle, bump grab them then you just might do it...and many hurdlers have - on purpose.
Has any hurdler ever expressed this to you or have you ever done it yourself?
That is so assinine that I will now dismiss your opinion on anything to do with hurdles.
People who think Robles did it on purpose are crazy and haven't seen his races, late in races he's been getting wide with his arms
Hurdles is a battle- you have to deal with other people hitting them, people falling, hitting into you-it is the nature of the beast. If you can't handle it you have no business being out there. Love Liu (one of my fav athletes of all time) but that is the way it goes in men's hurdles in particular. Unless the guy blatantly grabs you, and in 50 years of watching hurdles my husband has never seen an intentional grab nor have I,you deal with it. It is what makes the race exciting and unpredictable. Saw Allen Johnson quoted somewhere saying it was the wrong ruling too. We stand in good company.
Last edited by mojo on Mon Aug 29, 2011 8:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
DJG wrote:As I mentioned on the Current Events -Oliver's form post. It is quite possible that Robles moved to the right of the lane to avoid being hit by Oliver in the lane to his left. Oliver is well known to hug the right side of his lane. I don't think Robles wanted to get smacked by Oliver.
Robles had his back to Oliver after the first hurdle.
mojo, unsure if you are addressing me or Jazz, but if it's me that you're talking about then I'm hardly impressed by the knowledge of race tactics by a club-level hurdler who now coaches athletes of the same caliber. (hurdlers don't do it, but Perry did?)
7-sided wrote:Hurdlers don't want to touch but when the only way you can slow the other person is to jostle, bump grab them then you just might do it...and many hurdlers have - on purpose.
Has any hurdler ever expressed this to you or have you ever done it yourself?
That is so assinine that I will now dismiss your opinion on anything to do with hurdles.
I'm confused! Were you responding to my question or 7-sided's take on the dirty secrets of hirdling?
7-sided wrote:mojo, unsure if you are addressing me or Jazz, but if it's me that you're talking about then I'm hardly impressed by the knowledge of race tactics by a club-level hurdler who now coaches athletes of the same caliber. (hurdlers don't do it, but Perry did?)
I was talking to you.
I am pretty sure my husband and I know much more about hurdling than you do no matter what level we coach at the present time.
I will concede to many on most events but not hurdles.
DH has coached Olympians by the way. If you looked at his website I dare you to say he does not know hurdles inside and out. He has no time for forums like these but if he did he could talk circles around you when it comes to any aspect of the event.
That said, what is a foul is open to discussion and if you take the rules literally then there would be a disqualification in just about every mens hurdle race. The officals made their decsison and though I deeply disagree I understand where they are coming from.
ANY athlete who spends time trying to win by grabbing or intentionally impeding another is one lousy hurdler. If you or any one else coaches people to do that then you have no business being in the sport. I do not think Perry did it on purpose by the way -it was the way she hurdled and it was annoying.
More tweets by Oliver certainly suggest he is against the DQ.
mojo wrote:Tweet by David Oliver. I think he outta know:
eople who think Robles did it on purpose are crazy and haven't seen his races, late in races he's been getting wide with his arms
Hurdles is a battle- you have to deal with other people hitting them, people falling, hitting into you-it is the nature of the beast. If you can't handle it you have no business being out there. Love Liu (one of my fav athletes of all time) but that is the way it goes in men's hurdles in particular. Unless the guy blatantly grabs you, and in 50 years of watching hurdles my husband has never seen an intentional grab nor have I,you deal with it. It is what makes the race exciting and unpredictable. Saw Allen Johnson quoted somewhere saying it was the wrong ruling too. We stand in good company.
Does this come from the school of thinking from the good ole days when men were men and sheep were scared? Of course Robles had to be disqualified, he grabbed Liu and altered the course of the race as he was being overtaken. Whether it was deliberate or not can't be answered, but in this case it certainly looked like it could have been. Fouls have to be called when technology allows it.
DJG wrote:As I mentioned on the Current Events -Oliver's form post. It is quite possible that Robles moved to the right of the lane to avoid being hit by Oliver in the lane to his left. Oliver is well known to hug the right side of his lane. I don't think Robles wanted to get smacked by Oliver.
Robles had his back to Oliver after the first hurdle.
Yes, and he knew for sure that Oliver would not be catching up?
7-sided wrote:mojo, unsure if you are addressing me or Jazz, but if it's me that you're talking about then I'm hardly impressed by the knowledge of race tactics by a club-level hurdler who now coaches athletes of the same caliber. (hurdlers don't do it, but Perry did?)
I was talking to you.
I am pretty sure my husband and I know much more about hurdling than you do no matter what level we coach at the present time.
I will concede to many on most events but not hurdles.
DH has coached Olympians by the way. If you looked at his website I dare you to say he does not know hurdles inside and out. He has no time for forums like these but if he did he could talk circles around you when it comes to any aspect of the event.
That said, what is a foul is open to discussion and if you take the rules literally then there would be a disqualification in just about every mens hurdle race. The officals made their decsison and though I deeply disagree I understand where they are coming from.
ANY athlete who spends time trying to win by grabbing or intentionally impeding another is one lousy hurdler. If you or any one else coaches people to do that then you have no business being in the sport. I do not think Perry did it on purpose by the way -it was the way she hurdled and it was annoying.
More tweets by Oliver certainly sggest he is against the DQ.
mojo/club-level coach, when challenged you can certainly be a 5-letter with the best of them but you're a 4-letter for sure. You first say the banging and beating is part of the game and then talk about lousy hurdling? Why would a good hurdler be outside of their lane?
First you attempt to assess my knowledge of hurdling by marrying your knowledge to your husband and then distributing his experience. Pathetic. What you and your husband know about hurdle technique is NOT in question, what you know about race tactics is (the same goes on in DL mid-distance racing) - though the paucity of male hurdlers coming from Canada now should tell me exactly how good you are as a hurdles coach.
So you there you have it, I admitted to having done it; it too was a spur of the moment, I can't believe I did that type of thing - even though it was in retaliation. But it doesn't take from the fact that I did it and it was done at full speed. So before you go quoting Allen Johnson if he thought it was the right call, ask him if hurdlers grab each other on purpose? Then ask Mark Crear, Roger Kingdom, and a host of others. Then ask other top hurdlers and they will tell you, hell yes, it goes on, and sometimes it's on purpose. That's something you would NEVER know while you, mojo, regurgitate hurdle theory from the latest seminar or paper or harken back to your days of national ineptitude.
signed, lousy hurdler who has competed at NCAA's, IAAF World Championships and Olympics.
Last edited by 7-sided on Mon Aug 29, 2011 10:22 am, edited 2 times in total.
The video, to my eyes, shows Robles' grabbing Liu's wrist coming off the 9th hurdle as they take the step after touching down. The tell-tale sign is that Robles' normal hand postion is basically closed-hand. The fact that his fingers open up before the grab shows intent to me.
Hurdlers do grab, and most often get away with it. I respect Oliver's point-of-view about incidental contact. Left-leg lead next to right-leg lead, contact is almost inevitable. I would imagine he gives it out more than he gets.
The hurdler is responsible for the hurdle in his lane. He is responsible for his arm swing not impeding the runner in the next lane as well.
Verdict: Correct call. Robles DQ upheld. Liu most likely would have won.
I bet for no other reason, Richardson is thrilled with his bonus for winning the gold medal. Can you imagine his negotiations with Nike way back when? The company probably said: "Yeah, we'll give you a million bucks for a WC gold" probably figuring Richardson wouldn't even make the US team.
Correct call on the part of the officials and yes I believe Robles actions were intentional. Intentional however does not mean premeditated. It was in the heat of battle so to speak where one often acts without reflecting on what one is doing. He was clearly reaching for Liu as Liu pulled up even and moved slightly ahead of him - I will not let this dude run by me. The clincher for me are his actions after the race when he hugged Liu as if he had his back. It seemed canned to me and it would be interesting to hear what Robles has to say himself about the race.
When I was watching it live in tv, I had the immediate impression that Liu was moving ahead and then somehow inexplicably slammed on the air brakes. When the replay was shown I understood why I had that impression. And, in addition to the hand contact on Liu causing an imbalance, Robles' foot seemed to clear Liu's hurdle as well, indicating another infraction if I understand the rules correctly.
DJG wrote:The video, to my eyes, shows Robles' grabbing Liu's wrist coming off the 9th hurdle as they take the step after touching down. The tell-tale sign is that Robles' normal hand postion is basically closed-hand. The fact that his fingers open up before the grab shows intent to me.
Hurdlers do grab, and most often get away with it. I respect Oliver's point-of-view about incidental contact. Left-leg lead next to right-leg lead, contact is almost inevitable. I would imagine he gives it out more than he gets.
The hurdler is responsible for the hurdle in his lane. He is responsible for his arm swing not impeding the runner in the next lane as well.
Verdict: Correct call. Robles DQ upheld. Liu most likely would have won.
I agree. When I saw the replay, I saw Robles swing his right hand back with fingers out. This was the hurdle before he actually made contact. Seemed as if he was fishing. I don't think this is just a hurdle tactic. 2008 oly trials men 800m. KRobinson reaches back to impede C.Smith.
Trackrunner wrote:The clincher for me are his actions after the race when he hugged Liu as if he had his back.
Also his lack of celebration. Shouldn't he have been jubilant after winning this race?
Actually I was surprised by Richardson's reaction too. He seemed little despondent despite getting silver. I would have expected something more a long the lines of Kim Collins winning his bronze.
i just watched the above, from the BBC. i've lost a lot of respect for dayron. he's a total cheat in my book. watch the head-on replay, he's clearly, desperately grasping at liu xiang's arm. robles' hand is not in the closed position, it's clearly grabbing at his opponent's hand (just like the photo of doucoure vs. quinonez shown above). he tried it once but misses it, then a 2nd time (successfully), and then over the last hurdle, they knock arms.
liu was totally robbed of this since he was fast gaining on robles. i can't believe robles would do this, and immediately as the race was over, he grabbed and held liu as if saying "i'm sorry, i'm sorry, i don't know why i did that..." guilty, guilty, guilty.
Last edited by uakari on Mon Aug 29, 2011 10:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
toyracer wrote: And, in addition to the hand contact on Liu causing an imbalance, Robles' foot seemed to clear Liu's hurdle as well, indicating another infraction if I understand the rules correctly.
I wondered the same thing, but since the hurdler-types here had not discussed it I deleted my comment from an earlier reply. Also, from the still it is not clear if his foot went around the hurdle and if it went below the hurdle. This is normally a 400h issue and not a 110h/100h issue.
Mojo, I don't know as much about hurdling as either you or 7-sided, but I will say that not everything people learn about competing in sports is learned in a controlled environment under the supervision of well-trained coaches. Stretching/breaking the rules, a.k.a. gamesmanship. is part of practically every sport, with the possible exception of golf. This is the stuff we learn on playgrounds when the coaches aren't around. For example, John Stockton is one of the dirtiest and sneakiest players in the history of the NBA, but nobody ever suggested that his coaches taught him to play this way. Personally, I don't think Robles' foul was intentional, but since 7-sided has admitted that not only has he done it, but other hurdlers have admitted to doing it as well, means that at least we have to consider the possibilty that Robles' foul was deliberate. Perhaps this sort of gamesmanship is more prevalent in some parts of the country/world than others.
well, my name is not dayron robles, but i don't know how you people can see the video (the head-on replay) and say for sure he didn't do intentionally. it's very clear to me it was intentional.
If you watch, Robles is favouring the left hand side of his lane early and almost running into Oliver, his arm in fact swinging out at him. Mid race he corrects a little and around hurdle nine he suddenly lurches over to the right of his lane. Is this because he's grabbed Liu's arm and Liu's momentum pulls Robles across the track as it knocks Liu off balance? Maybe if Robles ran the race in a straight line he might have ran faster.
No way was on it on purpose-I have watched it a billion times too.
I still would not have DQed him but I certainly see how one can come to that conclusion-obviously some very knowlegeable people agree with those of you see it as DQ. I will never agree it was on purpose.
7 sided-good for you for having competed at the very top levels. I still doubt that guys plan aheador deliberatley hit others but if that is true it is stupid and very risky. As Oliver said- you can be the one who pays the price by doing that .(he means slowing down, losing, falling, not getting DQEed).
One thing I can do is respect different opinions so with that I bow out of this discussion.
Those who don't think Robles grasped Liu's arm please explain his sudden movement to the right and not the left after they clash. The physical contact with the athlete ahead of him to the right PULLS him across his lane.
Last edited by Giant Panda on Mon Aug 29, 2011 10:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
Pathetic. What you and your husband know about hurdle technique is NOT in question, 
