¶2011 WC: m110H—Robles DQed; Richardson Gold!


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Re: ¶2011 WC: m110H—the cover jinx!!!!!!!!!

Postby mojo » Mon Aug 29, 2011 6:02 am

nevetsllim wrote:
mojo wrote:I have seen far more contact in other races. That is the nature of hurdles-nothing blatant or intentional. I hope and imagine the Cubans are appealing?

And I was cheering for Liu-after all he has been through a win would have been incredible.


I remember Colin Jackson ran in Zurich a few years ago and he was getting whacked by the guy on his outside over every hurdle! Flailing arms/hands are just one of the occupational hazards of hurdling and Robles looked to be slightly affected by the first clash. Liu Xiang's such a class act though and he didn't blame Robles in the post-race interviews. Jason Richardson also described the victory as bittersweet too.



Completely agree. Blanking on the name tof the female US hurdler no one wanted inthe lane next to them....? (middle age syndrome!) :oops:

I have seen far worse clashes than this one with no DQs.
Last edited by mojo on Mon Aug 29, 2011 6:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: ¶2011 WC: m110H—the cover jinx!!!!!!!!!

Postby uakari » Mon Aug 29, 2011 6:05 am

the aforementioned perry.
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Re: ¶2011 WC: m110H—the cover jinx!!!!!!!!!

Postby mojo » Mon Aug 29, 2011 6:09 am

uakari wrote:the aforementioned perry.



Thanks. Part of being middle aged is also not reading everything. :oops:

I am so pissed off and disappointed by this- Letlotse's scenarios were equally possible.

After such a great night of comp this leaves a very bitter taste.
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Re: ¶2011 WC: m110H—the cover jinx!!!!!!!!!

Postby Novianv2 » Mon Aug 29, 2011 6:12 am

What a great race! Totally what I was hoping for – 3 dudes running hurdle for hurdle waiting to see who would blink first. Too bad about the DQ – why can't countries just let this stuff get settled on the track? Can't believe Oliver didn't show-up. This all bodes well for us hurdle fans going into an Olympic year. Xiang and Robles are still on top of their games. Oliver will be back and even more determined. And this young Jason Richardson kid...look out! :D
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Re: ¶2011 WC: m110H—the cover jinx!!!!!!!!!

Postby 7-sided » Mon Aug 29, 2011 6:19 am

Letlôtse wrote:To be completely wiped out from a race because of an unintentioned action is unjust.

It all just doesn't make sense.

What if Liu surged through to gold despite the contact ? Still a disqualification for Robles ?

What if Liu managed to surge past Robles right at the line to silver after being knocked back a little at the instant of the contact ? Would Robles still be disqualified although Liu managed to recover from the set back ?

What if it was Liu's arm that was on top of Robles' on contact making it seems that it is Liu's arm that is pushing Robles' back and therefore making Robles the one that is being impeded. However, for whatever reason (position of the body at that instant, balance, centre of gravity, bad last hurdle, etc), Liu comes off worse from the contact being knocked back a little.

There are other ways of thinking about it.

Well, it looks like you have all of the wrong ways to think about it covered. The only thing that matters is what happened: Liu was impeded by Robles, Robles should be DQ'd. Beyond that, it is obvious that this was intentional. Robles reaches forward 2m before the hurdle when the vast majority of in-race contact happens in-air or immediately after.

Novianv2 wrote: ...Too bad about the DQ – why can't countries just let this stuff get settled on the track? Can't believe Oliver didn't show-up. This all bodes well for us hurdle fans going into an Olympic year.

Settle it on the track? This isn't hockey! You don't get to grab people because they're ahead of you. :roll:

One more thing: do we really have fans here saying that because Perry got away with an obvious wrong a few years back that no one should advance their thinking on fairness in perpetuity? :roll:
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Re: ¶2011 WC: m110H—Robles wins big showdown

Postby lilwayne1814 » Mon Aug 29, 2011 6:21 am

[quote="gibson"]This championship is not useful in determining who is best at what thus far.

Why? Because the faves are going down? hahahahahaha...The meet is great. One shouldn't FS and people will be DQ'd...It happens in all sports. get over it. Congrats JR...
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Re: ¶2011 WC: m110H—the cover jinx!!!!!!!!!

Postby roixordo » Mon Aug 29, 2011 6:23 am

nevetsllim wrote:
mojo wrote:I have seen far more contact in other races. That is the nature of hurdles-nothing blatant or intentional. I hope and imagine the Cubans are appealing?

And I was cheering for Liu-after all he has been through a win would have been incredible.


I remember Colin Jackson ran in Zurich a few years ago and he was getting whacked by the guy on his outside over every hurdle! Flailing arms/hands are just one of the occupational hazards of hurdling and Robles looked to be slightly affected by the first clash. Liu Xiang's such a class act though and he didn't blame Robles in the post-race interviews. Jason Richardson also described the victory as bittersweet too.

Last semi-final in European Champs.

Quiñónez vs. Doucouré .The frechman wasn´t DQed.
video
http://www.rtve.es/deportes/20100730/qu ... 2949.shtml
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Re: ¶2011 WC: m110H—the cover jinx!!!!!!!!!

Postby croflash » Mon Aug 29, 2011 6:24 am

I still haven't seen a conclusive angle. Clearly, Robles caught Liu's left wrist with his right hand, but where did the contact actually happen? I'm not sure Liu did not impede Robles' lane for a split second there, it happens all the time in hurdles.
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Re: ¶2011 WC: m110H—the cover jinx!!!!!!!!!

Postby MDelano » Mon Aug 29, 2011 6:26 am

Whatever happened to Oliver these last weeks? His starts in particular have been atrocious.
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Re: ¶2011 WC: m110H—the cover jinx!!!!!!!!!

Postby guru » Mon Aug 29, 2011 6:28 am

Cuban protest denied
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Re: ¶2011 WC: m110H—the cover jinx!!!!!!!!!

Postby Novianv2 » Mon Aug 29, 2011 6:28 am

Ok, I don't want to get into a war of words but 7-sided, have your ever hurdled? I ask this b/c if you have, you'd have to ask yourself if grabbing another hurdler mid-race during a WC final while you are running essentially 13 flat is actually on the top of your mind. Note the word "intentionally".

Anyway, I agree with most here – a great race and I can't wait to see them do it again next year! :D
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Re: ¶2011 WC: m110H—the cover jinx!!!!!!!!!

Postby 26mi235 » Mon Aug 29, 2011 6:33 am

That Liu was impeded is unassailable. The rest is the proper assessment in terms of the rules and their application. It did not seem that the contact had any adverse effect on Robles

Any competing athlete who jostles or obstructs another athlete, so as
to impede his progress, shall be liable to disqualification from that
event.
No 'deliberate' in this clause.

As for the best athlete winning, if you false start are you the best athlete? If you impeded someone does it have to be deliberate and how do you tell deliberate and does it matter if it is careless (which seems that it might be in this case).
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Quotes on/by Liu

Postby 3 » Mon Aug 29, 2011 6:46 am

Post-race quotes on/by Liu:

Liu: When I approached the ninth hurdle, Robles pulled me. It made me slow down

Liu: I lost my balance when I came to the 10th hurdle because of the bump. If not for the incident, I would been the gold medalist.

Liu: Robles hit me twice, at the ninth hurdle he pulled at me but I'm sure it wasn't intentional.

Allen Johnson: That's hurdling, it happens all the time, it just so happens that this time it happened to the two fastest hurdlers ever at the world championship

Close-ups of the entanglement:

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/00t ... 6/610x.jpg
http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/0aw ... L/610x.jpg
http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/0gl ... 4/610x.jpg
http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/0fQ ... 4/610x.jpg
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Re: 2011 WC: m110H—

Postby bruce3404 » Mon Aug 29, 2011 6:48 am

croflash wrote:Robles cements his place in history :D


Yeah, as a colossal ass with that pre-race posturing. After seeing that, I was hoping he'd FS.
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Re: Quotes on/by Liu

Postby croflash » Mon Aug 29, 2011 6:55 am

3 wrote:Post-race quotes on/by Liu:

Liu: When I approached the ninth hurdle, Robles pulled me. It made me slow down

Liu: I lost my balance when I came to the 10th hurdle because of the bump. If not for the incident, I would been the gold medalist.

Liu: Robles hit me twice, at the ninth hurdle he pulled at me but I'm sure it wasn't intentional.

Allen Johnson: That's hurdling, it happens all the time, it just so happens that this time it happened to the two fastest hurdlers ever at the world championship

Close-ups of the entanglement:

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/00t ... 6/610x.jpg
http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/0aw ... L/610x.jpg
http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/0gl ... 4/610x.jpg
http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/0fQ ... 4/610x.jpg


Well, that second picture is pretty conclusive, really unfortunate for everyone. As a fan of Robles, unfortunately I have to admit that you can make the case he deserved to be disqualified even though there have been worse indicents in hurdling before. Just sucks because Liu still doesn't win the race, Richardson is forced into gold when he wouldn't have finished higher than third if not for the contact and Robles either would have won or finished second.

Just a terrible finish to the third day.
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Re: ¶2011 WC: m110H—the cover jinx!!!!!!!!!

Postby 26mi235 » Mon Aug 29, 2011 6:58 am

GIven the pictures (two posts above) Liu was not over to the edge of his lane and Robles was enough that his foot is over Liu's hurdle. It might be that arms go around in the hurdles, but you have to still be responsible for what you do or the choices get worse.

I think that the pictures show that Liu would likely have won the race (he was also making up ground at the time, in addition to being slightly ahead at this juncture).

Question: in the fourth picture, Liu's lead foot is further down but his trail leg has his foot further back than Robles, whose knee is also much higher than Liu's. Does this demonstrate Liu's superior hurdling technique?
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Re: ¶2011 WC: m110H—the cover jinx!!!!!!!!!

Postby mojo » Mon Aug 29, 2011 7:07 am

Very wrong decision. And like I said I very much wanted Liu to win.

DH is 6"5 and used to weight 200 pounds (yes he is lighter now). Never ran a hurdle race where there was not contact with someone- you fight through it. Yes Robles did affect Liu but not intentionally or blatantly.

People making these decisons (and I have a feeling a friend of ours was in on this as she is there as a track referee) have not hurdled.


Such a great race ruined. :( :(
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Re: ¶2011 WC: m110H—the cover jinx!!!!!!!!!

Postby 7-sided » Mon Aug 29, 2011 7:11 am

Novianv2 wrote:Ok, I don't want to get into a war of words but 7-sided, have your ever hurdled? I ask this b/c if you have, you'd have to ask yourself if grabbing another hurdler mid-race during a WC final while you are running essentially 13 flat is actually on the top of your mind. Note the word "intentionally".

Anyway, I agree with most here – a great race and I can't wait to see them do it again next year! :D

Certainly, you're not implying that I would have had to have once run hurdles to see that Robles obviously impeded Liu? He grabbed him, it was intentional and whether he was running 13 seconds or 14 seconds he knew what he was doing...slowing Liu.

mojo wrote:Very wrong decision. And like I said I very much wanted Liu to win.

DH is 6"5 and used to weight 200 pounds (yes he is lighter now). Never ran a hurdle race where there was not contact with someone- you fight through it. Yes Robles did affect Liu but not intentionally or blatantly.

People making these decisons (and I have a feeling a friend of ours was in on this as she is there as a track referee) have not hurdled.


Such a great race ruined. :( :(

You're wrong! He did it on purpose. And, again, having hurdled or not having hurdled has little to do with whether it's apparent - to you. Bill Bellicheck never played football.

Also, the people making the decisions are probably lifelong track officials who have dedicated a significant portion of their free time to this sport; they should be given a bit more respect from someone who has done the same.
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Re: ¶2011 WC: m110H—the cover jinx!!!!!!!!!

Postby Daisy » Mon Aug 29, 2011 7:12 am

One thing I noticed was that Robles was not celebrating the win. Presumably he was worried about what had happened.
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Re: Quotes on/by Liu

Postby Marlow » Mon Aug 29, 2011 7:14 am

croflash wrote:http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/0awNcYtgHbcWL/610x.jpg
Well, that second picture is pretty conclusive, really unfortunate for everyone.

Have to agree (don't wanna). As said above, arms hit in the hurdles; it's part of the event. But, for Liu to be totally in his lane, and Robles not, I think they HAD to make that decision.

My question is, why are they so averse to order a rerun (with Robles out)? The Referee can do that.
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Re: ¶2011 WC: m110H—Robles DQed; Richardson Gold!

Postby efua ninsin » Mon Aug 29, 2011 7:20 am

this race should be rerun

i wonder why some think it was intentional, how in God's name are you while focusing on the line and clearing hurdles going to decide intentionally to impede another athlete. makes no sense
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Re: Quotes on/by Liu

Postby 7-sided » Mon Aug 29, 2011 7:21 am

Marlow wrote:
croflash wrote:http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/0awNcYtgHbcWL/610x.jpg
Well, that second picture is pretty conclusive, really unfortunate for everyone.

Have to agree (don't wanna). As said above, arms hit in the hurdles; it's part of the event. But, for Liu to be totally in his lane, and Robles not, I think they HAD to make that decision.

My question is, why are they so averse to order a rerun (with Robles out)? The Referee can do that.

It's not just that he was in Liu's lane, it's that he started the race on the opposite side and only drifted to that side as Liu drew level with him. This happens in hurdling and it's part of the "game", but like a DB pulling on a receiver, it's NOT unintentional, and sometimes it must be called. Liu had a great comeback win ruined.
efua ninsin wrote:this race should be rerun

i wonder why some think it was intentional, how in God's name are you while focusing on the line and clearing hurdles going to decide intentionally to impede another athlete. makes no sense

Mostly by the movement of his arms pre-incident...he was "fishing"; feeling for contact.
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Re: Quotes on/by Liu

Postby Marlow » Mon Aug 29, 2011 7:26 am

7-sided wrote:Mostly by the movement of his arms pre-incident...he was "fishing"; feeling for contact.

Not at all. Hurdlers don't want to touch; it could just as easily be themselves that are thrown off by it.
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Re: Quotes on/by Liu

Postby 7-sided » Mon Aug 29, 2011 7:34 am

Marlow wrote:
7-sided wrote:Mostly by the movement of his arms pre-incident...he was "fishing"; feeling for contact.

Not at all. Hurdlers don't want to touch; it could just as easily be themselves that are thrown off by it.

Disagree completely! Hurdlers don't want to touch but when the only way you can slow the other person is to jostle, bump grab them then you just might do it...and many hurdlers have - on purpose. This isn't new, it isn't all incidental.
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Re: ¶2011 WC: m110H—Robles wins big showdown

Postby Top_end_speed » Mon Aug 29, 2011 7:42 am

lilwayne1814 wrote:
gibson wrote:This championship is not useful in determining who is best at what thus far.

Why? Because the faves are going down? hahahahahaha...The meet is great. One shouldn't FS and people will be DQ'd...It happens in all sports. get over it. Congrats JR...

Nobody false started in this race
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Re: ¶2011 WC: m110H—the cover jinx!!!!!!!!!

Postby jazzcyclist » Mon Aug 29, 2011 7:45 am

7-sided wrote:
Novianv2 wrote:Ok, I don't want to get into a war of words but 7-sided, have your ever hurdled? I ask this b/c if you have, you'd have to ask yourself if grabbing another hurdler mid-race during a WC final while you are running essentially 13 flat is actually on the top of your mind. Note the word "intentionally".

Certainly, you're not implying that I would have had to have once run hurdles to see that Robles obviously impeded Liu? He grabbed him, it was intentional and whether he was running 13 seconds or 14 seconds he knew what he was doing...slowing Liu.
mojo wrote:Yes Robles did affect Liu but not intentionally or blatantly.

People making these decisons (and I have a feeling a friend of ours was in on this as she is there as a track referee) have not hurdled.

You're wrong! He did it on purpose. And, again, having hurdled or not having hurdled has little to do with whether it's apparent - to you. Bill Bellicheck never played football.

Novianv2 and Mojo,
it is my understanding of the rule that it doesn't make difference whether the impedement was intentional or not, and shouldn't be less referees get in the business reading minds.

7-sided,
FYI, Bill Belichick played both high school and college football. Furthermore, a person who has hurdled at any level would be in a much better position to recognize normal hurdling movement than a person who has never hurdled. However, intent is irrelevant IMO, so I agree with you on the larger point, that the decision to DQ Robles was the proper one, since he had no business with his feet in Xiang's lane and he clearly did impede him. It may be normal to have your hands in the adjacent lanes in a hurdles race, but the feet is a different matter.
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Re: ¶2011 WC: m110H—Robles DQed; Richardson Gold!

Postby PCSExponent » Mon Aug 29, 2011 7:46 am

7-sided, I have no idea why you're so sure this was intentional. And I haven't seen any video or photo showing obvious 'grabbing'.
Having said that, I have to admit that given the images posted the decision was correct. The contact was entirely in Liu's lane. Never the less, Perry's infraction in 2007 was far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far worse.
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Re: Quotes on/by Liu

Postby jazzcyclist » Mon Aug 29, 2011 7:49 am

7-sided wrote:Hurdlers don't want to touch but when the only way you can slow the other person is to jostle, bump grab them then you just might do it...and many hurdlers have - on purpose.

Has any hurdler ever expressed this to you or have you ever done it yourself? :?
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Re: ¶2011 WC: m110H—Robles DQed; Richardson Gold!

Postby Giant Panda » Mon Aug 29, 2011 7:51 am

Does anybody have a working link to the slow motion aerial footage of the whole incident?
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Re: ¶2011 WC: m110H—Robles DQed; Richardson Gold!

Postby marknhj » Mon Aug 29, 2011 7:57 am

Giant Panda wrote:Does anybody have a working link to the slow motion aerial footage of the whole incident?


Look on letsrun; very clear and multiple replays from head on. Robles had to be disqualified and it may well have been intentional (although that doesn't matter). From his immediate reaction after the finish it looks like Robles knew exactly what he'd done.
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Re: Quotes on/by Liu

Postby 7-sided » Mon Aug 29, 2011 8:05 am

jazzcyclist wrote:
7-sided wrote:Hurdlers don't want to touch but when the only way you can slow the other person is to jostle, bump grab them then you just might do it...and many hurdlers have - on purpose.

Has any hurdler ever expressed this to you or have you ever done it yourself? :?

YES and YES! :oops:
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Re: ¶2011 WC: m110H—Robles DQed; Richardson Gold!

Postby DJG » Mon Aug 29, 2011 8:08 am

As I mentioned on the Current Events -Oliver's form post.
It is quite possible that Robles moved to the right of the lane to avoid being hit by Oliver in the lane to his left. Oliver is well known to hug the right side of his lane. I don't think Robles wanted to get smacked by Oliver.

Q.) are the lanes too narrow for the size (width) of these athletes? Hurdlers are generaly of the larger body-type.
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Re: Quotes on/by Liu

Postby mojo » Mon Aug 29, 2011 8:12 am

jazzcyclist wrote:
7-sided wrote:Hurdlers don't want to touch but when the only way you can slow the other person is to jostle, bump grab them then you just might do it...and many hurdlers have - on purpose.

Has any hurdler ever expressed this to you or have you ever done it yourself? :?



That is so assinine that I will now dismiss your opinion on anything to do with hurdles.
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Re: ¶2011 WC: m110H—Robles DQed; Richardson Gold!

Postby mojo » Mon Aug 29, 2011 8:16 am

Tweet by David Oliver. I think he outta know:



People who think Robles did it on purpose are crazy and haven't seen his races, late in races he's been getting wide with his arms


Hurdles is a battle- you have to deal with other people hitting them, people falling, hitting into you-it is the nature of the beast.
If you can't handle it you have no business being out there. Love Liu (one of my fav athletes of all time) but that is the way it goes in men's hurdles in particular. Unless the guy blatantly grabs you, and in 50 years of watching hurdles my husband has never seen an intentional grab nor have I,you deal with it.
It is what makes the race exciting and unpredictable. Saw Allen Johnson quoted somewhere saying it was the wrong ruling too. We stand in good company.
Last edited by mojo on Mon Aug 29, 2011 8:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: ¶2011 WC: m110H—Robles DQed; Richardson Gold!

Postby 3 » Mon Aug 29, 2011 8:18 am

DJG wrote:As I mentioned on the Current Events -Oliver's form post.
It is quite possible that Robles moved to the right of the lane to avoid being hit by Oliver in the lane to his left. Oliver is well known to hug the right side of his lane. I don't think Robles wanted to get smacked by Oliver.


Robles had his back to Oliver after the first hurdle.
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Re: ¶2011 WC: m110H—Robles DQed; Richardson Gold!

Postby 7-sided » Mon Aug 29, 2011 8:22 am

mojo, unsure if you are addressing me or Jazz, but if it's me that you're talking about then I'm hardly impressed by the knowledge of race tactics by a club-level hurdler who now coaches athletes of the same caliber. (hurdlers don't do it, but Perry did?)
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Re: Quotes on/by Liu

Postby jazzcyclist » Mon Aug 29, 2011 8:24 am

mojo wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote:
7-sided wrote:Hurdlers don't want to touch but when the only way you can slow the other person is to jostle, bump grab them then you just might do it...and many hurdlers have - on purpose.

Has any hurdler ever expressed this to you or have you ever done it yourself? :?



That is so assinine that I will now dismiss your opinion on anything to do with hurdles.

I'm confused! Were you responding to my question or 7-sided's take on the dirty secrets of hirdling? :?
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Re: ¶2011 WC: m110H—Robles DQed; Richardson Gold!

Postby Daisy » Mon Aug 29, 2011 8:24 am

marknhj wrote:From his immediate reaction after the finish it looks like Robles knew exactly what he'd done.

This was my impression. I think he knew the DQ was coming.
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Re: ¶2011 WC: m110H—Robles DQed; Richardson Gold!

Postby mojo » Mon Aug 29, 2011 8:34 am

7-sided wrote:mojo, unsure if you are addressing me or Jazz, but if it's me that you're talking about then I'm hardly impressed by the knowledge of race tactics by a club-level hurdler who now coaches athletes of the same caliber. (hurdlers don't do it, but Perry did?)



I was talking to you.

I am pretty sure my husband and I know much more about hurdling than you do no matter what level we coach at the present time.

I will concede to many on most events but not hurdles.

DH has coached Olympians by the way. If you looked at his website I dare you to say he does not know hurdles inside and out. He has no time for forums like these but if he did he could talk circles around you when it comes to any aspect of the event.

That said, what is a foul is open to discussion and if you take the rules literally then there would be a disqualification in just about every mens hurdle race. The officals made their decsison and though I deeply disagree I understand where they are coming from.

ANY athlete who spends time trying to win by grabbing or intentionally impeding another is one lousy hurdler. If you or any one else coaches people to do that then you have no business being in the sport.
I do not think Perry did it on purpose by the way -it was the way she hurdled and it was annoying.

More tweets by Oliver certainly suggest he is against the DQ.
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Re: ¶2011 WC: m110H—Robles DQed; Richardson Gold!

Postby marknhj » Mon Aug 29, 2011 8:42 am

mojo wrote:Tweet by David Oliver. I think he outta know:

eople who think Robles did it on purpose are crazy and haven't seen his races, late in races he's been getting wide with his arms

Hurdles is a battle- you have to deal with other people hitting them, people falling, hitting into you-it is the nature of the beast.
If you can't handle it you have no business being out there. Love Liu (one of my fav athletes of all time) but that is the way it goes in men's hurdles in particular. Unless the guy blatantly grabs you, and in 50 years of watching hurdles my husband has never seen an intentional grab nor have I,you deal with it.
It is what makes the race exciting and unpredictable. Saw Allen Johnson quoted somewhere saying it was the wrong ruling too. We stand in good company.


Does this come from the school of thinking from the good ole days when men were men and sheep were scared? Of course Robles had to be disqualified, he grabbed Liu and altered the course of the race as he was being overtaken. Whether it was deliberate or not can't be answered, but in this case it certainly looked like it could have been. Fouls have to be called when technology allows it.
marknhj
 
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